The UAW and Domestic Automakers

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Comments

  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    So what does he have to complain about, being laid off and all that. It's been a great 10 years, at the expense of shareholders and consumers.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The latest twist in the tariff manipulation saga is that GM and VW are actively lobbying Chinese government to maintain at least some degree of tariffs on cars (China has drasticly cut tariffs on car imports in the last couple years since joining WTO) . . . the reason being that both companies already have substantial production capacity in China, more than the Japanese competitors . . . go figure, multi-nationals (that are not even natives there) lobbying _for_ tariffs!

    The point of domestics selling in Japan may not be selling models designed and made in and for the US market, but rather something like Aveo made in China. There is tremendous profit to be made intermediating between/among the various overseas markets . . . Portugese/Dutch/British East Indies companies made far more money moving goods between China, Japan and Phillipines than they ever did making the long haul all the way back to Europe.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    It's a good thing that they still take our paper money. I'd be mighty grateful if someone will do all my chores and take a number with a bunch of zero's in return. Heck, instead of paying 5% a year as interest on those zero's, I will pay 1000% every day . . . by just adding another zero to the end of the number. There is no promise of any goods or service to be deliverd from me for any of those zero's. With national debt currently standing at $200k for every man, woman and child, there's little chance it ever gets paid back in anything but vastly debased currency.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    That sounds like something taken straight out of the trashy pseudo-business books of 1989, just before the Tokyo stock market crashed.

    150 years ago, in 1856, Japan was still living under Tokugawa shogunate; Commodore Matthew Perry had just visited and forced open Japan to free trade. If the Japanese ruler knew what was coming, he would not have been overthrown in less than 10 more years.

    The really funny thing is that all those trashy book scribes advocating long term planning did not even see what was coming in a few short months: end of a massive bubble that sent Japan into economic stagnation for well over a decade.

    Japanese CEO's and upper management derive income and gratification far beyond what their nominal salaries indicate. Saying that they only make a few times the income of an average worker is about as absurd as saying the President of the United States makes only $250k a year, or that Fidel Castro makes less than $100 per month . . . all the staff are provided for free! Which private business executive making $250k a year has a summer house like Camp David? Captains of major Japanese companies actually run their national government, more or less, in addition to the cadre of camp followers.

    Much of the talks of "long term planning" is little more than hubris for money losing business ventures and favoritism/nepotism . . . as amply demonstrated in the 1997 economic debacle in the far east.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The big 3 did not change quickly enough and therefore are destined to merge with international competitors. There is no way back. The staff have been led by management that absoultely defied reality until it was too late. You cant sell products that are WORSE than your domestic offerings in quality and utility. Did the big 3 think oil prices would fall? Why would you continue to sell the bulk of your products to defy this economic reality?

    I could go on and on but basically I always bought American despite the problems to support our industry counterparts but I gave up after 30 years and bought foreign.

    Sincerly,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...I NEVER give up on my home team. I've always been a Phillies fan regardless of how bad a season they've had. I always hated the kids who sported caps or jackets sporting the logos of the teams that happen to be winning that season and bad mouth their home team. I don't care how many people are driving around in some foreign car, I WILL ALWAYS STAND BY MY HOME TEAMS!!!
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Unfortunately, Japan will be forgotten about once the
    Chin-E cars come to our shores.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I also lemko, want to stand by my home teams. If GM would build me the cars I want they'd never have to worry about me leaving. That means Quality cars with "Gadgetology"

    Rocky
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I also lemko, want to stand by my home teams. If GM would build me the cars I want they'd never have to worry about me leaving. That means Quality cars with "Gadgetology"

    Hell, I wish GM would just build a vehicle that didn't fall apart on me. My saga with my Suburban continues. Just donated another $1200 due to the A/C compressor self destructing @ 70k miles while driving back to Kansas from Indiana in 105 degree heat. Thanks GM, they prove to me everyday why fewer and fewer people want their vehicles.

    With every thousand I dump into my Suburban, the chances I'll buy another GM product is reduced accordingly.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    And I've had many GM vehicles, some up to 150,000 mi and no air conditioning problems. Not even a recharge. So we can't paint the whole group of cars are poor, can we?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I wish GM would just build a vehicle that didn't fall apart on me.

    I think that GM quality went down after the 1998 UAW strike.
    My 4 pre 1998 Chevy PU trucks and Suburban were trouble free. I am not so sure about this 2005 GMC PU. It is so tinny compared to my 1999 Suburban. The doors feel like they are going to fall off when you shut them. I would take back my last 3/4 ton 1993 PU in a flash if offered. I would not say that it is the Unions fault. Did GM cut corners on sheet metal & parts to make up for the cost of labor? Or are they just trying to shave weight to please the CAFE regs? Whatever, I am not impressed with the tinny feel of it. Our Fords at work were no better. I thought I wanted an Excursion until I got one at work. It was real shoddy built and noisy to boot.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I WILL ALWAYS STAND BY MY HOME TEAMS!!!

    Uh, yeah, I am still an Atlanta Hawks fan despite they are a laughingstock in NBA. However, I have nothing to lose to continue support my home team even if they are horrible. Buying cars from a "horrible home team" is another story. I am the one who's driving that car everyday and I don't feel good to know that with the same amount of money I could be driving a better built car.

    I totally understand your loyalty toward the domestic auto maker but with $40K on the line, loyalty's gotta take the back seat for practicality.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    Would an Aveo actually sell in Japan? I think the little Japanese cars are ahead of that thing. It would have to be really cheap and sell to an undemanding audience.

    For actual people in the long run, unbridled consumer goods trade (one way trade, that is) with China will end up a negative force.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    I wonder how cheap they will be, how poorly engineered they will be, and how poor the conditions will be in their factories.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Ford sells Explorers and Euro Foci in Japan, and there are even a handful of CTS's over there. Still, those sell in pitifully small numbers since the Japanese market has an extremely low tolerance for NVH and lowest-bidder interiors. The German luxury makes seem to be the only imports interested in providing the refinement that market demands.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Have you read any reports on the new Aveo? I did not think they were out there yet.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The tariff thing is a crock. Try buying one of these and shipping it to your house. DOT and EPA certifications are onerously expensive, and amount to tariffs by another name.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Have you read any reports on the new Aveo?

    http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-review/1607289.aspx
  • john500john500 Member Posts: 409
    It's a game of statistics. If consumer reports "black dots" for 4 categories (let's say AC is one of them), then that means that at least 15 % of the produced vehicles will have a "problem". Take a vehicle with all red marks, that means that < 2 % of the vehicles will have a problem. Thus, (0.85)*(0.85)*(0.85)*(0.85) as many as 52 % of the vehicles with the "black dots" will be OK. Conversely, (0.98)*(0.98)*(0.98)*(0.98) means that at least 92 % of the vehicles will be OK (with as much as 8 % still having problems). Coupled with horrible resale values, that's a lot to ask for as Louiswei indicated.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    And I've had many GM vehicles, some up to 150,000 mi and no air conditioning problems. Not even a recharge. So we can't paint the whole group of cars are poor, can we?



    Personal experience overides everything. If the domestic vehicles I've owned were trouble free, then I would be bragging about them.

    The fact remains most of my domestics have displayed poor quality and/or reliability. My current Suburban has cost me $4000 to keep on the road between 45k - 70k miles excluding normal wear items. That's a bitter pill to swallow. Thankfully I have the $ to make the repairs w/o starving my kids or borrowing the funds.

    We make lots of long distance trips. It's getting to the point where in the back of my head I worry about what's going to fail next and I can't justify getting rid of it with all the repairs I've made.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    Who said we were talking about an upcoming model?it's not on the street yet...the current model is what I meant...

    Something in the GM water...greener pastures are always just around the corner...just blur your eyes to any current unpleasantness.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "Something in the GM water...greener pastures are always just around the corner..."

    Yep. I've been hearing that kind of talk for better than 20 years.

    Must be a mighty big corner...
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Have you read any reports on the new Aveo? I did not think they were out there yet.

    Touchy, touchy aren't we?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Well, per my GM experience, they are undefeated at 9-0!
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Some have problems like dieselone, (by the way nice to see ya pal) :) and some don't. I especially feel for the people like diesel, who obviously owns a lemon. It really hurts those drivers, because their are people like lemko, whom had nothing but good experiences with GM, and their dealerships. It's not fair :sick:

    Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    Not touchy at all, just a little jaded of the strange comparisons and defenses made by GM employees/relatives of GM employees/those who own or have been gifted GM stock.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Perhaps, but data is data.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Home Team Ford just announced another clobbering on a HUUUUGE recall. They are still cash rich but they are even further behind that 30 year corner. Toyota, on the otherhand, announced a HUUUUGE year/year qtr. profit.

    The home team is however, getting in a new advisor...exploring options.

    Question to the forum...How does everyone think Chrysler did re: int'l merger with the Germans?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Chrysler did good. Mercedes was drug down. It may take years for MB to regain the reputation they lost as a result of merging/buying Chrysler.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    Toyota, on the otherhand........

    Toyota is making lots of money. However, Toyota has also had a whole lot of recalls lately, some quite serious.

    Toyota announced recently that they have recalled 2.4 million cars in the last year and their recall rate is rising.

    I don't see this as just a UAW problem.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Japaese carmakers themselves are moving small car manufacturing to China.

    There is no such thing as "one way trade." Trade is always two-way . . . one way economic transfer is called taxation, aid or robbery :-) Currently our trading partners just happen to like our paper and the supposed "full faith and credit" printed on them (despite Nixon's welching on the promise to redeem dollar with gold some quarter century ago). As to "for actual people in the long run," only those believe themselves to be smarter than anyone else can consider removing choices for consumers are actually good for them.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Bob Eaton may go down in history as the biggest salesman in auto industry ever . . . and that says something. Shrempp on the other hand may prove to be the biggest dope ever.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,691
    Toyota has transmission/software problems with hesitation. That started with Lexus/Avalon discussions. Now it's Camry. But they are trying to convince people it's just that people should learn to drive with the transmission the way it is.

    Honda has had transmission problems for years and replaced and replaced.

    People accept their excuses and poor products. Pity GM/Ford it if were they having the problem with hesitation now in a wunderkar.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,510
    Talk about believing themself to be smarter than anyone else...duly noted. Not weighing the impacts of supposed "choices" does indeed make one less smart...
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...we have two-way trade with China. They give us their cheap products and we send them our once well-paying jobs! So I guess it's fair.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    lemko, did you see in Cali that many americans can't afford homes, so some are building homes out of those huge shipping containers from China. :surprise: Maybe the Big 3 will use the metal to build cars out of em' ? The shipping containers might be a fringe benefit for ex-UAW workers as company housing :P

    Rocky
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Many of the folks right across the border from San Diego would love to have one of those 8x40 steel containers for a home. It beats cardboard any day of the week. We are spoiled and will have a hard time adjusting to being a 3rd world country.

    I don't see where people are getting the money for these homes in San Diego. They are building 384 new homes and condos on two sides of our property. The condos start at $450k. The homes on top of the hill behind us are 3000 to 5000 square feet. No prices set on those yet. Well over a $million$ I'm sure.

    So all those early retirees from GM/Delphi can take their silver parachutes and come buy a place next to me.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    So all those early retirees from GM/Delphi can take their silver parachutes and come buy a place next to me.

    Silver Parachutes is what perhaps you got. :P Dad gets $2700 a month. I wouldn't call that sterling silver, but more like rusted steel :P

    Rocky
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That is not bad for the years he put in and his age. You and my children will not get that kind of paid retirement. Your dad and I are fortunate to be the last of the Union workers that have a retirement to look forward to. Hopefully the younger folks are putting in all their employers will match in their 401K.

    The parachute I was referring to is the cash sum up to $135k that was offered. I did not read how many UAW members took that offer and the average payout.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    The parachute I was referring to is the cash sum up to $135k that was offered. I did not read how many UAW members took that offer and the average pay out.

    Very few took the $135K from what dad said. The vets with 30 yrs. got $35K to retire. Dad only got the shirt on his back when he left with 27 yrs. I'm going to talk to him today to see how it feels not working at GM/Delphi anymore since this coming friday will be 2 weeks. Delphi is suppose to meet with the Judge this week. Step-dad and aunt are bracing themselves. :sick:

    Rocky
  • nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    Rocklee..
    I don't knoiw your Dad's age, but you did not mention social security payments and his HEALTH benefits. I am a retired cop and his pension of $2700.00 is the same as mine.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    His pension will go up from $2700 to $3K in 3 years. He currently is 48 yrs. old. When he's elgible for Social Security, his pension from GM goes down. Yours is obviously set up different just like my grandmother's. Yes he has good health benefits. However I think retirees will be attacked once again next contract IMO.

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Heck, I'm sure those steel containers are built a lot more solidly than the average trailer home. They'd be harder to blow away in a tornado.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    LOL

    Rocky
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    Rocky, you are missing the boat on this one. How many 48 year olds are retired with:

    1) A monthly income of $2,700 that will soon be $3,000.

    2) Excellent health insurance and benefits.

    3) Complete freedom to work and earn whatever additional income they choose.

    You present this as terrible, but your dad's situation would be the envy of almost every blue collar worker in the USA.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They'd be harder to blow away in a tornado.

    They could put them on foam pontoons and use them for housing in New Orleans. Then when it floods they just float around until the water goes down and have a new home site.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    gagrice, you are on to something pal. It might be cheaper to do then fix the dikes. I wonder what happen to all those cars that got flooded out ?

    Rocky
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They washed them out and sold them in NYC at a reduced price.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    "I wonder what happen to all those cars that got flooded out ?"

    They're at BHPH lots everywhere.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    That isn't funny, but I did here about those flooded, repainted cars being sold as new by dealers. :surprise:

    Rocky :mad:
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