Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options
The Growing Divergence Between Horsepower and Speed Limits
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Well, I can't speak for everyone, but certainly the average fan of performance cars is going to lust for the 'Vette rather than the Civic, because of the overall driving experience and the fact that the horsepower contributes positively to the driving experience.
Horsepower isn't just about quarter-mile times and 0-100 acceleration, but enhancing performance and making it easier to tap across the powerband. The car isn't just more fun for the performance fan when driving at 10/10th's, but is also more fun at 5/10th's and at other levels of operation.
I have a home theater system with about 1,000 watts. If I were to turn the volume to maximum, the speakers would eventually blow and my ears would bleed, but that's not why I wanted this much wattage.
Rather, the system functions more efficiently and produces better fidelity at volumes well below maximum than would a less powerful system, because of the nature of how amplifiers work -- the quality of sound is superior at low volumes because the amplifier needs minimal effort to reproduce that sound, given its high capacity at peak.
The performance of a car works similarly. Most of us don't want a car for its maximum production of horsepower, but for its ability to deliver power easily and with refinement at lower ends of the range. This comes with a financial cost and often requires more fuel, but it certainly doesn't indicate a desire to use it to kill schoolkids and their crossing guard on a weekday afternoon.
Another thing about these "smaller" cars that I do not like is the insurance is WAY more expensive. (36% MORE)
Huh? What? You have to stop listening to those voices in your head.
Truth is at 48 mpg and xxx digit speeds,
Truth is if you're saying your getting 48 MPG in a TDI at 100+ MPH I will call you a liar. Seeing that according to the EPA it gets 48 highway (much below 100MPH) and real world users are getting much less than that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
On another leg, 650 miles on 12.4 gals in CC @ app 20% of xxx digits. What would you have gotten?
So why would I want you to trade in your "GAS guzzler"?
More germane to a prior post is my take that most cars in USA are ill designed for our own roads!!?? Trust me, 48 mpg is NOTHING compared to some other autobahn runners not allowed in this country.
I have heard from media in past that autobahn accidents can be gruesome. Post number 12 from this board said:
"Not to be morbid, but I did come upon a high speed accident on the Autobahn when I was in Germany a few years ago. It was not a pretty sight, with car parts and human body parts spread over a large area. The damage done at 140 mph is exponentially greater than at 70. I wonder if the American public and most politicians could take too many "Eyewitness News" accounts of that kind of carnage."
Diesels tend to get better fuel economy, and produce less horsepower and more torque for a given amount of engine displacement. But I don't think that cars but for those with the smallest engines get fuel economy that high.
Also keep in mind that mileage figures from UK car magazines have to be converted from Imperial to US gallons. You can convert from UK to US by reducing UK MPG figures by 20% when converting. (Imperial gallon = 160 fl. oz.; US gallon = 128 fl. oz. --> the US gallon is 20% smaller)
There is no way you can convince me that in a car that everyone and their brother says they average in the very low 40's at best on the highway that you are getting over 48 at 100+ speeds? I just don't buy it.
Anyways on that other thread you were jumping around between getting 40 to as high as 45 at 100+ speed now its as high as 48? what will it be next month 55? So tell me why should I believe you?
So why would I want you to trade in your "GAS guzzler"?
Cuz gas is 2/3rds the price of diesel And since my so called gas guzzler gets in the upper 20's on the highway (as opposed to 41 for the TDI) I don't pay all that much more for fuel.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And you would be correct, I have placed that figure at 95% plus.
The 48 mph is good ole eng.usa 128 oz= 1 gal. routine. So I would think we are free to move forward?
And in any case, I've not seen a definitive connection made here between horsepower and fatalities. Lots of ideas about taxing people for it, but no proof that such a tax is either needed or particularly fair.
Got to love it! That is what so great about our semi free market!
YOU DON'T HAVE TO!
But I did!
High 20's mph is indeed GOOD!!
But for my .02 cents, 48 mpg is better!
I also would state upfront, I am NOT for mandatory fuel mpg standards. Look how long it took to get a 40-60 mpg product WITH OLD MANDATORY fuel mpg standards!!! ???
WAY TOO SLOW, WAY TOO LONG, WAY TOO EXPENSIVE.
Oh, now.... I have to jump back into the game. I just do not have the time to invest in reading all these posts, but what I did browse added some depth to the arguments (a big change!). Anyhow....
There are many places to drive performance automobiles legally, on public roads, and still take advantage of the added capability afforded by the car. Just go find yourself a nice, low traffic, windy mountain (or similar) road and you will have a blast driving that auto to the very edge of BOTH your capabilities! And, you will probably do it at or below the posted speed limit unless you want to mind all of the suggested curve speed warnings.
Not to say that excess is not excess (aptly put by Andy in the bridge example) but, in this case, there are places to use it without going around in circles.
The only folks out of luck are those who want to test the top speeds of their vehicles, and in those cases the HP rating does not have much to do with it.
On one hand, people fear choice and want choices limited, but then when a governing body limits those choices the same people are complaining about it! :confuse:
If nothing else, blanket increases in HP will drive continued technological advancement of other vehicular systems of which we can all take advantage (even without the HP). And, in turn, these advances will allow even more HP and on and on. Or, is a horse-drawn cart still the best option?
YUP, but look at all the crap that generates .
Speaking of crap, the WSJ wrote an article about it.
"Cows in Hereford Are All Fired Up About Ethanol Plant" (subtitle) They Produced a Cheap Fuel Nobody Has Wanted:
T WSJ, Tues, Jan. 24 2006, Page A1. "please turn to Page A18, column 5"
WSJ.com
Granted buy you ain't getting it, remember on the other thread you said 40.
Anyways I would rather get 34 (what my daily drive gets) and pay 2.30 a gallon than get 41 (the average of what TDI owners are reporting) and pay 2.95 a gallon.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It is English, just ask any Amish person.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Which is why my Volkswagen GTI is good for me. If I had the money, I would have gone for a R32.
A small, functional passenger car with good power and handling (especially the handling) is a much better choice than a small economy car with poor power and poor handling... if you can afford it.
For it just may save your life someday... and in the meantime, it's just fun to drive.
:shades:
me: As I said in that post, I believe the people I went to pass sped-up; which I'm not sure was inadvertent or purposeful (a mild form of road-rage?). I did not assume that would happen, so yes what was a good judgment became bad judgment. Since you don't have control of the entire situation - other drivers, it is better to control and correct a situation that develops. Better brakes, handling, tire, and engine power are all ways to control a driving situation (they're all forms of power).
Perhaps you forgot! The range has been 44-62. So in fact you are correct, I ain't getting 40!!!
Do I get 40 for most of my driving? NO!! So stop grasping at straws!
Today's corner store prices 2.32 unleaded regular vs 2.69 diesel.
And yes, I am ok with you paying more per mile driven 2.32/34=.0682352 cents per mile driven vs 2.69/50= .0538. cents per mile driven.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I get 37-41 in a Honda Civic. Now indeed I have posted that. Perhaps you are having a senior moment in rememberance. Now in comparison that is a gas guzzler.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
So on the other side, I would SWAG 40 if I cruised all day at 120/125 mph. Obviously we can NOT do here in the USA.
But, related to Kernick's passes, this other driver pushed the pass beyond the safe passing zone and there WAS an oncoming vehicle that became apparent toward the end of the maneuver. Had I been driving my Subaru (without the fast acceleration), it could have been a much more dangerous situation.
Now, between the C20 and the Subaru, I'd take the Subaru on any given day. But, if there were no other trade-offs other than available power, give me the C20! FYI, a C20 is a rear-wheel drive 3/4 ton pickup.
Have encountered similar more than once in driving life as have probably most who post here. These are idiots and are probably on same intellectual level as someone taking down a stop sign at fast rural highway. High fines and/or jail time are in order if apprehended by police.
So if I may digress with an anecdotal. I with another diver was heading on the road toward Key West, FL for some scuba diving (full load of scuba gear for two, in a VW Jetta sized vehicle, so hot footing was pretty oxymoronic) when a yayhoo pulls onto on coming traffic, around a blind bend no less to attempt to pass me. And naturally there was oncoming traffic. So to allow room for the "intended" on coming victim, I pull off the road into the coral , so the yayhoo can come back to the correct lane, and I sounded the horn. The yayhoo of course takes strong exception to the horn and of course having nearly missed a head on crash fatality, jams on his brakes and gives me the italian salute!! BUT he didn't notice the Florida Highway Patrol behind who had on his lights and siren!!
Some times (not often) a cop is there when you need em.
And no, Big Brother is not going to raise current speed limits any higher than where they are now. You might as well get used to 50 mph grannies on 70 mph highways with others who would rather be driving at 100+ mph.
BTW, I have an '05 GTO 6-speed and it is a vehicle that makes me want to get up in the morning just for my morning commute to work. I've had it up to 125 mph one time, but its not the top speed that I like about 400 HP (its electronically limited to 159 mph so I can't even use its full capability based solely on speed). However, I don't worry about people speeding up on me when I pass them and I can usually find at least a couple of situations each day where I can utilize most, if not all, of the vehicles acceleration capabilities (acceleration, not speed, being the key word).
Too much power!!! You gotta be kidding. What the heck does power have to do with this?
What do you think about compact sedans under 200 HP that can outperform your GTO in slalom and braking? Yeah, you can beat them at dragstrip or at stoplight, but that is kid stuff.
Read Post 12 about crash at 140 MPH and pieces of body parts and pieces of cars.
You can call it "kid stuff", but even at 43 years of age, an occasional run with a Mustang GT or F-150 SVT from stoplight to stoplight can't be overrated.
Also, when accelerating onto the interstate or passing on a two-lane hilly road, I'll take the 400 HP GTO over your "under 200 HP" sedan anyday. These are real-life situations, unlike weaving in and out of the construction cones as you would prefer.
Have you ever seen the wreckage from a plane crash? Pretty nasty, with bits all over the place, not very pretty at all. Yet I and a lot of other people still keep flying.
Bodies of people who've drowned don't look so great, either -- when they fill with water, they become bloated, you can barely recognize them. Pretty nasty stuff, but I still use boats and go into the water.
I didn't realize that dying in a 35 mph crash was any better than dying in a 75 mph crash. Perhaps the death is more glorious at 35 mph, or is less tragic? I thought that dying in a car accident wasn't very nice at any speed, but I could be mistaken.
By the way, most cars can't even go 140 mph, let alone get in an accident in one. And unless there was absolutely no braking involved, a car involved in an accident with an impact speed of 140 mph would have likely needed to have traveled a good deal faster than that to have an collision at that speed, further reducing the odds of any such thing happening.
In other words, there are almost ZERO autobahn accidents at or near that speed, particularly given that we know that the 85th percentile speed on the autobahn is about 95 mph, and that almost no cars are capable of such speeds. And yet the Germans still have fewer freeway fatalities than just about anyone else in the world, including those with the low speed limits that you prefer.
http://212.227.48.10/downloads/testberichte/en1091783395autocar_B7_0804.pdf
I like British driving.
Just to relax the atmosphere of this busy thread.
You saw very well that I was using two stats and added a correlation where there weren't any. This is an example of how stats can be misused.
>Everyone from high school physics classes onward knows that increasing velocity of vehicles increases risk.
Risk, yes, nobody denies basic physics. Fatalities, not quite, and if the factors you mention play a big role, we can't say for sure higher SL played a negative role.
Sorry, misspelled : AMI 8
>That settles that question, your out of your mind.
Pls elaborate I don't get your thought
The last I looked at the rule books, flying and swimming were legal. Driving at 140 on public roads in the US is illegal.
Hottest in the buzz they generate yes. But how many Shelby Mustang's Camaro's and Hemi Challenger's will be sold in total? I will bet you that the 154 HP Toyota Camry 4 banger will outsell off of them together.
BTW, I have an '05 GTO 6-speed and it is a vehicle that makes me want to get up in the morning just for my morning commute to work.
You must live and work in a sparsely populated area. I have a CTS-V (6-speed) and would never drive it in rush hour traffic. My daily drive with 140 HP performs in the slow traffic just as well and gets better gas mileage, plus its an auto and I don't kill myself shifting.
I can usually find at least a couple of situations each day where I can utilize most, if not all, of the vehicles acceleration capabilities
Can utilizing and actually utilizing are two different things. As I said before you can count on one hand of a high school shop teacher the number of times I even came close to using most of the acceleration capabilities. The only reason I can see for using all that capability is to either show off or to put a GTO owner in their place. :P
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It is kids stuff and highly overrated. What do I have to prove to a driver of a Mustang GT, F-150 SVT or GTO that I can show them my tail lights any time I want? Its simply childish.
Also, when accelerating onto the interstate or passing on a two-lane hilly road, I'll take the 400 HP GTO over your "under 200 HP" sedan anyday.
It really doesn't matter if I am accelerating onto the Interstate in my 400 HP Caddy or my 140 HP Hyundai. Either car I am entering the Interstate at the same speed (that which is what traffic is going), the only difference is that in the Caddy I am usually up to highway speeds a little faster using less engine capability.
On a two lane road its usually those with very light traffic and the frequency of which oncoming cars approach make the additional HP pretty much meaningless.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
No, not more glorious, just less likely.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You had 2,100 posts to prove that, and you never did. On the contrary, I showed you that fatalities occur at all kinds of speeds, and that our fastest roads have our lowest fatality rates. Better quit while you're behind.
On the contrary, I showed you that fatalities occur at all kinds of speeds, and that our fastest roads have our lowest fatality rates.
And I showed you the fallacy of those arguments, again you didn't listen. I have studies that show that going faster increases your risk of being in a fatal accident and that going 75 your up to 175% more likely to be in a fatal accident. But you continue on your own faulty logic.
Yes the fastest roads have the lowest fatality rates they are designed to be safer, but that doesn't mean that going faster on them is safer or even as safe as going slower on those same roads. A fact that you avoided like the plague.
Of course this is not the thread for that discussion so I will leave it at that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Slalom tests of Edmunds and Road and Track demonstrate vehicle capability in handling. Better slalom capability will help a driver in emergency maneuvers in real world. Ever have to dodge something that fell off of somebody else's vehicle?
Edmunds and Road and Track "stopping" tests also demonstrate vehicle capability in emergencies.
Slalom and brake test performance attributes on a 400 HP GTO, which is RWD, are not as good as some under 200 HP FWD compact sedans. The main pupose of mega HP vehicles apparently is to enable drivers to go well beyond posted speed limits, burn rubber strips and make a lot of noise, or do kid (teen) stuff drags.
The mega HP being offered on some vehicles today offers no practical use on US public roads with current posted speed limits.
I've shown you numerous sources from professionals that show that the safest speeds for travel are at the flow of traffic, and that the most accident risk involves those driving much faster or more slowly than that flow. Stop using this thread to try to repeat your untruths that were already disproven -- you had your shot, and you should be done.
While that is true you have to remember that when the flow of traffic speeds up the risk speeds up. Yes it matters what the speed of traffic is going, hence you are more likely to be in a fatal accident if you and everyone else is going 85 than if you and everyone else were doing 70.
So the sources are irrelevant to the discussion at hand (or the thread topic).
Stop using this thread to try to repeat your untruths that were already disproven
I will stop responding with facts if you stop repeating your fallacies that have already been disproven.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Numerous studies refute that, and traffic engineers say otherwise, but I'm sure that you and your gut feeling are more reliable than any of that.
All you have done is shown that you are good at misdirection, providing irrelevant material and misstating things.
Now if you don't post your fallacies I will stop responding with facts. Thank you.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D