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The Growing Divergence Between Horsepower and Speed Limits
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Voluntary compliance? Never heard of IRS saying to wage earners, "We trust you to send in a check for your fair share of Fed taxes every week".
Actually, the IRS provides a great example of the importance of voluntary compliance. The IRS depends heavily on people actually filling out the forms and completing the information required. It is able to audit only a very small percentage of returns, and most taxpayers will never see an audit.
It's a bit like the 55 mph speed limit, which was also a tremendous failure in its stated goals, in large part because of the inability to achieve voluntary compliance. Fuel consumption was not significantly reduced, driving speeds were not significantly reduced and the vast majority of drivers responded by simply violating it, while causing law enforcement to divert scarce resources toward patrols on our safe freeways instead of our more dangerous primary roadways and city streets. Very good for the radar detector and CB radio makers, but not terribly effective public policy.
The issue is that with a high HP car like a Vette the "environment" where you can use the car to its full advantage are few and far between. Sure you can't use a Vette to its full potential on a winding gravel road, but neither can you on the Ike in Chicago at 7 am any given weekday.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
How can you focus on fuel consumption without looking at the factors that cause it to be used?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Point was missed. What would be voluntary compliance if IRS said they were eliminating withholding and put US citizens on their honor to send in check say once/month?
Would not be big Fed problem to impose user fee on vehicles based on HP/weight. A law passed by US Congress to do so would require each state to collect these Fed fees for roads when states collect yearly license tag fees. If this were 60 years ago, before computers/internet/data bases, yes, it would be very labor intensive. Not so today.
Because it isn't meaningful. If the state's objective is to reduce fuel consumption, then do things that make people want to buy less fuel. Basic economics tells you that increasing the price will cause that to happen. The consumer will figure out what he needs to do in order to reduce his expenses -- you need not play Big Brother and do it for him.
Yep, and when people don't comply and drive cars with expired registration, you'll expect the state to devote resources to enforce it.
(Then again, this might be good for me. The cops will spend their time looking for expired tags while I drive by at my desired speed in my less powerful car...)
So, you would then agree that excess/massive HP is not needed if one can already exceed posted speed limits with a modest 4-cylinder (under 200 HP) car? Perhaps some 4-cylinder cars already have too much power.
Lets be honest here a 60's Camaro with a V-8 can out run todays Accord with a 4 cylinder.
Now what allows todays 4 cylinder run faster than a 60's 4 cylinder is greatly due to the fact that all engines produce more power.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You apparently didn't read my posts.
It's not the horsepower that causes people to drive faster, it's the overall capabilities of the car, which in turn raises the effective design speed of the highway, which in turn allows drivers to drive more quickly in comfort and with the sense of safety that causes them to determine the flow of traffic.
If you want people to slow down, you could accomplish it easily by giving them Model T's to drive. You could drop a 500-hp engine into a Model T, but the lack of handling and braking capability, coupled with poor ride and lack of cabin insulation, will cause people to drop speeds drastically, because the sensation of speed would be higher and the lack of a death wish would cause them to back off. (Of course, we know that those cars were much more dangerous, even at much lower speeds than our current averages, so I don't really see the point in doing that.)
One ever present danger on a two lane road is a head on crash. This of course presents the oxymoronic situations because if you are passing in the ON coming lane, you really do not want to lolligag, no matter the posted speed limits. Sure EVEN if you can see for literally miles, I would submit it is not a good habit to get into.
I like (driving in) NM, which has a good % of two lane roads. Again oxymoronically, it is best to have a high hp car to make and complete the pass-- ASAP. I have even been passed by the various Law Enforcement types at over 100 mph. (Crown Vic's) Lolligagging in the on coming lane during a pass or whether you think you can is good for nobody.
That sounds great but 1.) I work those days and I have a mortgage to feed 2.) they don't hold the events I go to during the week. But when I go I usually avoid US 20 and either bypass most of it by taking the old stagecoach tail that runs north, or stay south and that Blackjack road in. In my opinion more pleasant drives as they are less congested.
Will not need any monster HP car to enjoy back roads near Galena,
One of my favorite times driving those roads was in an older lincoln with a 110HP V-12
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Exactly my point -- the driver of today is driving as fast, if not faster, than the driver of thirty-five years ago, even those who have less horsepower.
To reduce driving speeds by reducing horsepower, you'd have to reduce it by a drastic amount, such as to the levels of the VW Beetles of the sixties. Nobody expects that to happen, and it won't.
Again, we are in age of computers. Driver's license with name and address already in States' data bases with vehicle registration. Not to difficult to manage/querry. Penalties for playing games with license plate tags are high, could be made higher. Revocations of driver's license for failure to renew tag fee, after sufficient mailings of warnings, would ensue. Don't think too many people want to fool around with that. Those that ignore updating of tag fee would be subject to warrants. License plate yearly fee payment provides a colored "month/year" stick-on for rear license plate in our state. Very, very easy to spot from behind. Easy to see who is, who is not up-to-date on fees.
Have to be very stupid or foolish person to drive around with expired tags and give police an easy "reason" to stop you. But, if you are so stupid, you deserve to be stopped.
There would be very few obstacles in implementing a HP/weight vehicle user fee across all states once Congress enacted the law. Getting it through Congress would be the most difficult part.
Have to be very stupid or foolish person to drive around with expired tags and give police an easy "reason" to stop you. But, if you are so stupid, you deserve to be stopped. "
I do not think you are living in the "compliance " REAL WORLD !!!
CA has an estimated 25% of drivers (cars) drive as a matter of SOP without insurance, let alone "adequate". Expired tags are probably no less an epidemic. So all a cop car has to do is to put in license plate numbers in his vehicle mounted computer. The LEGAL traffic stops due to this would keep him busy the whole shift!! Why don't they do this? There is NO money in it!!! With higher than normal administrative costs. It doesnt even have much nexus with criminiality. I went along on a ride along once and we stopped someone for some violation that I do not rememember. As were were waiting for the literal toilet paper roll list of printed violations to come off the computer, the grand total was app 4100 dollars. So we exited the vehicle for the officer to give the ticket with me covering on the passenger door side. The citizen politely took and signed the ticket and I saw him open his glove box and put this latest ticket in with the rest. Later I asked the officer why with 4100 dollars in outstanding history did he NOT affect/effect an arrest. His answer was simple and direct. It didn't exceed 5,000.
So, anything being done to tackle/fix situation? What have "citizen" drivers been saying to state legislators and Arnold on this.
The 2001 Z06 Vette weighs in at 3130 pounds while the BMW tops the scales at 3803 a 673 pound difference or you can say the BMW weighs 21.5% more than the Vette. Thats why you have the slightly more powerful Vette getting better gas mileage.
Also notice that even though the BMW 330 CI is heavier (3285) than the Vette it gets better gas mileage.
Try comparing the same make and model with different engines and you will see that increasing HP increases fuel consumption.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
While this is true if you don't pay your taxes you will get some very nasty letters from the IRS. You would be surprised to see how many people and companies have tax liens against them.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You can't fix it with cops, which is what you are proposing.
Consider Prohibition, the War on Drugs, and the 55 mph speed limit as three notable examples of policies oriented toward compliance-through-heavyhanded-enforcement, rather than via voluntary compliance. Noticing a pattern here?
Lets see, you consider BMW's to be = aircraft carriers?
Interesting that the BMW 3 series gets precious little better fuel mileage despite 2 less cylinders?
( 25% less ). Hardly the model of efficiency!
But I for one would seriously consider the BMW 330 D. (not sure of the numbers, but turbo diesel) which is rumored to get 37 mpg!!! Of course these Euro and Japanese fuel sippers are banned from entering the country.
I have gotten 2 mpg (range .5-3 mpg) on a Honda Civic with just a switch in a switch from 5w20 to 0w20 oil.
Like I said in a prior post, this is pretty much SOP and one can see similar behavior in traffic fines outstanding.
If the state's objective is to reduce fuel consumption, then do things that make people want to buy less fuel.
I agree, now in order to do things that make people want to buy less fuel you have to understand why they buy fuel and what affects that. In other words how can you change peoples fuel consumption without understanding what all the factors are? If you don't investigate and understand all the factors that cause fuel consumption then any action you take to reduce fuel consumption will be ineffective.
Basic economics tells you that increasing the price will cause that to happen.
Ah basic economics, now lets try intermediate economics and something called elasticity of supply and demand (actually that still might be basic economics). Elasticity is how reactionary the demand will respond to price changes. Energy in the short and medium term is inelastic, that means an increase in price will not provide an related decrease in demand. A sharp rise in energy prices will only result in a small decrease in use.
you need not play Big Brother and do it for him.
Ok you don't want anyone to play big brother and tax those who buy 500HP cars in a attempt to discourage using cars that burn to much fuel in an attempt to conserve fuel. But you will play big brother in punishing everyone, even those who drive very fuel efficient cars, to achieve the same thing with questionable results?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Right, the state has no business devoting resources to enforce the law. So let the bank robbers get away with it, I don't want the state wasting resources tracking them, especially since my deposits are insured.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I agree, now in order to do things that make people want to buy less fuel you have to understand why they buy fuel and what affects that. In other words how can you change peoples fuel consumption without understanding what all the factors are? If you don't investigate and understand all the factors that cause fuel consumption then any action you take to reduce fuel consumption will be ineffective."...
I would also agree! However the Country Fed State, Locals are MOST conflicted about this, as are the oil logistics' systems.
Another reason why a diesel makes sense is because of higher fuel mileage meaning you pay less taxes per mile driven than a gasser which gets less mpg.
Also 10,000 oil change intervals ( in my case 25,000 mile oil change intervals) can be done to a more nomal gasser interval of 3000/5000.
Needless but necessary to say, this uses FAR less petroleum products.
The truth however will be the systems will have to charge FAR MORE when FAR LESS is used.
Again in my 140 HP daily drive on a two lane road I can pass farmer Ted doing 55-60 within a few seconds. If I needed all of the power my 400 HP caddy has in a pass then the pass is not safe be it in the Hyundai or the Cadillac. That is simply because the oncoming traffic is way to close or we are already going incredibly fast.
I just cannot think of a reasonably safe passing situation where the Elantra will not suffice for passing power.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
They buy fuel because they live lifestyles that consume fuel. Raise the prices, and they will change their consumption habits without any more help from you. How they get there is not really your concern -- the market is smarter than a bumbling bureaucrat, and will sort it out accordingly.
now lets try intermediate economics and something called elasticity of supply and demand (actually that still might be basic economics).
Well, an intermediate-level economist knows that demand for fuel in the long-run is elastic, because people can and will modify their consumption habits when confronted with higher prices, as they find carpool buddies, reduce their car vacations, and swap their V-8 Impalas of yore for Civics and Corollas. By the early 1980's, OPEC learned this the hard way, a well-documented lesson.
But you will play big brother in punishing everyone, even those who drive very fuel efficient cars, to achieve the same thing with questionable results?
You question the results in Europe? Surely you jest, we know that they consume less fuel and drive lower-powered cars than we do. It's in the numbers -- compare the top selling vehicles in the US (large pickups), and compare them to those in Europe (Ford Focus, Opel Corsa, etc., which generally have smaller motors than the ones sold in the US.) The difference is obvious.
So, anything being done to tackle/fix situation? What have "citizen" drivers been saying to state legislators and Arnold on this.
socala said:
You can't fix it with cops, which is what you are proposing.
xrunner sez:
In above, I asked a question about what Californians are asking/suggesting to state legislature and governor. That sentence did not have any solution with cops.
Excuse me but how does the fact that a Camaro from the 60's can out run a 4 banger Accord of today prove your point that a Accord with a 4 banger is quicker than a 60's era Camaro?
It seems to disprove your point.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Not a worthy comeback. The point is that the police have scarce resources -- one way to preserve the use of scarce police resources is to reduce the number of laws in order to allow the police to dedicate themselves to worthy causes.
I don't know about you, but between dealing with gang members and enforcing registration laws that are so absurd that compliance levels plummet, I'd prefer the cops to deal with the gang members.
You seem to forget that if the laws are too strict, enforcement becomes a randomized crap shoot -- you'll get some violators, but most people will never be caught. It makes zero sense to create laws that are destined to fail when there are much simpler ways to accomplish the same thing without playing dictator and failing to get results.
Your 55 mph speed limit had 70-80% levels of non-compliance. Do you not see that imposing arbitrary laws not supported by the people is inherently undemocratic?
However, this issue cuts to my point that cars really need to be wholly redesigned. However this is fraught with an extreme amount of difficulties.
We aren't discussing 0-60 times, but average driving speeds. You don't need a quick 0-60 time or even 150 hp to cruise at 90 mph comfortably for sustained periods on a freeway. Drive in Europe, and you'll see how possible this is.
No just pointing out that it was not a good comparison, and that if you really want to see the effect on increased HP on gas mileage you should use the same car and transmission but different engines.
Interesting that the BMW 3 series gets precious little better fuel mileage despite 2 less cylinders?
It gets over 7% better fuel economy despite being slightly more than 5% heavier. Which again proves the point that increasing HP increases fuel consumption.
But I for one would seriously consider the BMW 330 D. (not sure of the numbers, but turbo diesel) which is rumored to get 37 mpg!!!
I wouldn't if your interested in saving money. Even if it got 37 MPG diesel still costs 50-55 cents a gallon more than gas here so any money saved in fuel economy is taken up by the added cost of fuel.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That's true, because you never offered any solution. When confronted with the reality that there aren't enough cops to impose your draconian vision for society, your response is to pretend that the lack of resources or compliance don't pose any obstacles to your dream.
A law without the ability to enforce it consistently to an extent that it achieves high levels of compliance is simply a joke and a slap in the face of democracy. The real world result of your proposal is to have the police force oriented toward enforcement of your pet law, while necessarily spending less time on dealing with all of the other laws that are on the books.
You pretend that simply by writing a law that it magically gets obeyed. Keeping dreaming, that simply isn't true. It didn't work with Prohibition or the 55 mph limit, so you should know by now that such tactics are a path to failure.
Never did I say it was easy, just that you have to consider all the factors.
Another reason why a diesel makes sense is because of higher fuel mileage meaning you pay less taxes per mile driven than a gasser which gets less mpg.
Same thing can be said of any high mileage car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
This is analagous to adding more taxes on other energy such as electricity. Poorer folks would be hurt the most. But, maybe this could work for electicity, but not for gasoline. Taxes on electricity could rise exponentially with monthly home consumption. Poorer folks in small energy efficient houses would be rewarded with very low tax rate. Those with mcmansions and monster stereos, who apparently have the means to pay, would be taxed the most.
NO. High European tax on motor fuel is not way to go in US. It would punish poorer folks and others such as retirees on fixed income. Better to have an increment added on to yearly state vehicle license fee for HP/weight.
Don't think there are too many ideas/concepts that Americans want to use or emulate from Europe. It is a nice place to visit, but that is about it.
yes i was that moron that was to lazy to go down or mail in for my new tags and would not renew for almost a year, i never got pulled over for my tags expired, only when i was breacking the law, speeding, not completeing a full stop at a stop sign, ect... that was when the cops said something about my tags, some let me go others didn't.
With all the new technology out there now days they need to come up with an electronic licence plate that starts blinking or does something that will be more of an indicator that you need to register your vehicle, maybe even start putting chips in american cars so if you dont register your car on time or like after a month after your registration is due, then your car wont start.
Since you are stating the obvious let me state the obvious, The comparisons was using the Corvette. The Corvette has only one engine. The BMW V8 that is of closest MATCH with less hp got way less mpg. 23 vs 28 or 18% less (V8 vs V8) The next BMW 3 series which is being compared as the "better alternative" is not much the better alternative considering it has 25% fewer cylinders and gets ONLY 6.7% better fuel mileage.
That's simply ridiculous, and makes you sound fairly ethnocentric. Every culture has something to learn from other cultures, and stars-and-stripes don't always offer the most workable solutions.
In any case, you've offered a non-workable "solution" that dictates that instead of paying at the pump that they be pulled over incessantly by the police (who meanwhile have to ignore the enforcement of laws that actually matter because you've made them so busy.) Instead of imposing a simple, easily collected fee that motivates demand for more fuel-efficient cars, you'd like to fill our jails with people who have "too much" horsepower, whatever that's supposed to mean, whether or not the actual amount of fuel used is actually reduced. Maybe a trip to Europe would do you a lot of good.
Another reason why a diesel makes sense is because of higher fuel mileage meaning you pay less taxes per mile driven than a gasser which gets less mpg.
"Same thing can be said of any high mileage car."
I would say ease is pretty far down the totem pole. Getting the revenue IS the CENTRAL issue.
For example, the whsle cost of diesel is VIRTUALLY the same as gas and this is even with the tremendous volume imbalance (97% gasser vs 3% diesel cars) Diesel however given same prices (which they are higher as most folks know) yields less tax per mile. Use a Jetta gasser vs Jetta TDI of 24/31 vs 42/49 epa. You as a CPA should be able to see this immediately, but if not, do the math.
But I think you really hit the nail on the head about "any high mileage car!!
There are simply NOT many high mileage cars around!! The ones that do get high mileage are mostly BANNED. The high mileage "hybrid" costs so much more that BE against a lesser gasser is almost NIL over the useful life.
Actually no, energy is a necessity and is not very susceptible to changes in prices. Large increases in prices will only result in small decreases in usage.
But you seem to be arguing both ends here, you don't want government raising the cost of high HP cars to save energy, but you are fine with the government raising the cost to everyone, even those who are trying to save energy. You say raise the prices so people change their habits? ok lets double the price of any car that has a high power to weight ratio. That should work.
How they get there is not really your concern -- the market is smarter than a bumbling bureaucrat, and will sort it out accordingly.
True but how it sorts things out may not be to anyones liking. Better to do it right the first time.
Well, an intermediate-level economist knows that demand for fuel in the long-run is elastic, because people can and will modify their consumption habits when confronted with higher prices, as they find carpool buddies, reduce their car vacations, and swap their V-8 Impalas of yore for Civics and Corollas. By the early 1980's, OPEC learned this the hard way, a well-documented lesson
Thats in the long run and even then its still going to be mostly inelastic. Most of why you mentions is already being done and has little room to improve. Switching to more fuel efficient cars is a major capital investment that many are not ready to do at this time, nor would it be economically the best thing to do. Case in point, my daily drive is running great and is paid off, even if gas prices skyrocket it wouldn't make economic sense to invest 15K or more to buy a more fuel efficient car.
Raising the price of gas will have very little effect on consumption. Whats going to have to happen is technological breakthroughs that take us off of oil.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Don't know your state.
The technology we have in my state is the US mail. Each year, about 2 months prior to expiration of vehicle license tag, vehicle owners receive a notice from Secretary of State to renew license. This letter comes in mail with other bills, such as insurance premium, gas bill, electricity bill, phone bill, etc. Secretary of State even provides envelope to mail back notice with a check. If this is done, then Secretary office sends back the updated sticker to put on rear license plate of vehicle in plenty of time to meet deadline. Have never ignored getting renewal sticker, but would imagine that warning letters are sent and if fee is not paid with check, action might be driver's license suspension.
Sending out letters for license plate fees, collection follow-up, escalation measures if vehicle owner ignores have all better be managed with current tech computers/data bases in all states. If not, state residents should be asking a lot of questions.
No its not, simply because it was sarcasim
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But you said it was quicker and it ain't (spoken from someone who has driven both).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Sending out an invoice is not the same as collecting the money or modifying behavior.
Prey tell, where will you find the police and jail space to deal with the violators? (Perhaps you've found a way to get cops to work for free and for jails to build themselves at no cost to the taxpayer.) And after you've failed to achieve compliance, what will you do then?
But you said it was quicker and it ain't (spoken from someone who has driven both).
I have no idea where you're going with this, but it appears to be in a circle. Performance cars tend to have more horsepower than non-performance cars, but I never claimed a linear relationship in either speeds or fuel economy. Can we discuss things that I've actually said, please?
Not sure where you have been??
But I do pine for the days of .74 cent per gal gas in 1987.