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The Growing Divergence Between Horsepower and Speed Limits
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The issue isn't registration per se, but your unworkable approach to creating registration fees that are so high for some that they are bound to result in increased non compliance.
Have you considered why the typical registration fee is rooted on an ad valorem basis, i.e. value of the car?
In part, it's because society believes that those who can afford to pay more should pay more, i.e. if you can afford to buy a $100k car, chances are pretty good that you can afford to pay a higher registration fee than a guy with a $2,000 car.
But there is also a more practical reason -- because the guy with the more expensive car has the cash, and the other guy doesn't. Simply put, if the fee has some relationship to the net worth or income to the individual, collecting it will be fairly easy, just so long as the fee is considered to be reasonable. And "reasonableness" varies based upon a guy's wealth or lack thereof, which can guesstimated by virtue of the car's value.
If registration fees are too high, people who need to drive won't pay them. This forces the police to address the non-payers, which in turn forces them to not enforce other laws as much because there are only so many hours on a shift.
You can't have it both ways.
-- If you add more cops, then you need to pay for them. If you don't add more cops, then the cops you have will neglect other police tasks.
-- If you increase the penalty, more people will break the law unless a positive alternative is offered, and more people will act drastically to avoid paying that penalty when pursued by police.
-- If you create a law that is unenforceable, it is gradually ignored, and respect for the police declines with it.
-- If you create a law that people consider to be unfair, they will resent it. Create enough of them, and you have a big tea party in Boston, followed by a revolution.
-- Bad laws don't work, unless your name is Adolf, Benito or Idi, and you have a police state to back you up. And as we can see from that list, most dictatorships aren't sustainable over the long haul.
But hey let us disregard that. So what are the chances of someone illegal having a legal drivers' license? How about legal insurance? etc.
Without studying, seems that there is decent correlation between massive HP cars and initial cost. Examples would be Bugatti, Z06, GTO, Chrysler 300C SRT8, BMW Ms, Mercedes AMGs, etc. There might be exceptions such as Mustang GT, but that is probably around 30k.
Folks with modest powered cars would hardly be affected by an HP/weight extra fee imposed by state for license tag. Might even incentivise it, like Fed Earned Income Credit, where buyer of Aveo does not pay any extra on state tag fee for HP/weight increment, but gets 5-10 bucks off the "regular" tag fee. Perhaps Honda Civic base 4-cylinder would pay just regular tag fee and no incremental for HP/weight. These would be good incentives to get people to lower their gasoline consumption and help lower amount of oil imported to US. This addresses our board topic.
where the government has not taken a look at is the fact that alot of ppl buy cars, that they cant afford to make it look like they are wealthy or "big pimpin" so now you got americans driving around in fabulous cars they can barely afford to make the payment on, then they get slaped with the registration dues, and cant afford them, so its either there rent car payment or there registration, most go with rent first then there car payment, then food, or then they have to have there cell phone working, then there bling bling, then there cable t.v. then there fancy shoes, then oh oooh registration whats that i cant afford that right now, so i guess i will put it off..
This reminds me of how unintended consequences created by reactionary bureaucrats who don't think through their actions can backfire.
Case in point is Mexico City, which bars driving into the city one weekday per week, based upon the last digit of the license plate. The idea seem to make sense -- by restricting driving to four out of five days of the work week, people would avoid driving, reducing smog and improving traffic flows.
What actually happened was quite different. Many of those affluent enough to drive into the city bought second cars that had a license plate that would permit them to drive in. Because the cars were only needed once per week, they tend to be cheaper, older cars...that pollute more. So much for a solution.
Perhaps that was the inspiration for the fantastic horsepower tax that won't slow anybody down (as if we need to slow them down, anyway). Ask a European if he needs a Corvette to cruise at 100 mph on an autoroute, motorway or autobahn.
What does "massive" mean? And how does that explain that a V-8 Mustang is cheaper than is a less powerful A4 or 3-series? (And do note that all three cars can go 120+ quite nicely, thank you very much.)
Exactly, he wants to slow people down by allowing them less power, even though we already know that people don't need all that power to drive that fast.
Oh, wait a minute -- he wants to reduce horsepower to get better fuel economy, but he wants to completely ignore both the price of fuel and the amount of fuel that actually gets burned. I guess it's better for a lower-powered car to be on the road, even if it is driven more and uses a greater quantity of fuel than the more powerful car.
So, in conclusion, let's slow people down by taking away horsepower that they don't need to go that fast, and get them to save fuel by ignoring how much of it they consume or what motivates them to consume it. Makes sense to me!
..."Well yeah, if a 90 hp car can go 120 mph isnt anything over that overkill? "...
Since I own one of those, I know for a fact then that 99% or even more of the passenger vehicle fleet is/are out of compliance!!
Aren't you all glad that I am not KING?
The problem are the ones who have the medium to lower hp stuff that is doing the MOST consumption!!!!
me: Do the calculations and tell us how much we can reduce oil imports? Since manufacturers still meet the CAFE standard, it is not decreasing, and oil usage has increased over the years and is predicted to increase (again DOE) what does that tell you is driving increasing demand for oil?
Since China coontinues to use more oil will a barrel saved here, be saved? Or will it simply be burned in a new Chinese car or factory?
If you want to save oil, I'd bet you could save more oil by buying products grown and made locally. Do you realize thhat the average food item that the average American eats has been shipped 2,000 miles? And the oil used for all the plastics.
If I can afford and want to afford a high hp vehicle I will. And it is rather silly to suggest not taxing a certain vehicle because of its factory hp, when someone who wants hp could then get aftermarket parts to avoid a tax. That might promote what my cousin did 15 years ago when hhe bought a brand new Camaro (200hp V-8 of that time?), pulled the engine and put in a 600hp engine. You may actually end up with people replacing the moderately powered engines from the factory with really high-powered engines.
We could also save by changing our automobile buying habits.
Hydrogen @ 16 dollars per gal ("Hydrogen is currently priced at about $4.50 per kilogram", 2.2#'s per kilogram app 8# per gal of hydrogen. ohttp://www.autoweb.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_page- _- order_int/2/article_id_int/627)
with 22 mpg. Honda Civic hydrogen powered car
At that rate, to match diesel at 2.75 per gal and 50 miles per gal (2.75/50 mpg=.055 cents per gal), The CAFE standards would have to be 291 mpg?? (.055/16 dollars= 290.909009 mpg)
Drive 35 mpg cars to commute!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I agree with your point. Don't need a Corvette or another car with a lot of HP to go over speed limits. And by extension, excessive HP is not needed. Honda 4-cylinder type cars will do quite fine and provide all the power that anyone would need. And according to the Europe that you like, Accords would be too big in US. So, will have to be Civic size.
Perhaps the European taxes that you favor, for putting heavy taxes on fuel at the pump, will slow sales on big HP cars and heavyweight SUVs if it were implemented in US. This will address topic of board.
Maybe you can tell me how many might put in a 600 HP engine? One person in 10,000? One in 100,000? One in 1,000,000?
In many parts of US, cars have to go through emissions tests. Year and model of car is expected to meet certain criteria. If someone is so intent on putting in different engine, they will have to meet test points anyway for car model/year.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yes. Maybe with implementation of socala's European fuel tax people will be motivated to buy smaller - crossovers, small suvs, etc. I find it interesting to see women, especially petite types, getting into or out of Suburbans, GMC Suburbans, Excursions (once in a while) at food stores in shopping center. They are by themselves, no one else in vehicle, and putting in a few shopping bags. But, should not be quick to judge. Their next stop could be Home Depot where they will load up (with help) with big load of lumber and other heavy supplies.
Ford Corp saw the light and stopped making Excursions.
Well it would tell me more if Civics ane Echos were selling more and 500HP vettes sat on the show room floor, but that isn't the case is it?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That makes more sense but it wasn't obvious because you did mention in the original post that Accords were quicker.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Also in fact having to have a car, but not using it drives the costs per mile driven ever sky higher!
That being said most cars today with 100 HP or more can easily do 75-85 MPH you will see most people do on the interstates. So in that respect more HP really isn't needed to drive fast down an Interstate.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But given my normal commute range of 47-52 mpg on a TDI 35 mph is gas guzzling.
Now if we make hydrogen feasible the price of that will come down as more people create better and more efficient ways to create and store hydrogen.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
More germane to the discussion is bio diesel and #2 diesel can be had from a myraid of DOMESTIC sources: crops ALREADY being grown, a myraid of in place waste streams, coal, natural gas, etc, etc.
Unleaded regular is a one trick pony in that regard. It also uses more upstream and downstream resources to refine and in its use. The thing that saves it PRICE wise is the TREMENDOUS supply imbalance, i.e. 97% unleaded regular gassers vs 3% MAX of diesel passenger vehicle fleet of 232M vehicles per NHTSA statistics.
me: The point is that you can not save energy in any significant amount unless it occurs on a global basis and in all areas of life. It does little good to save 200 gal of gas on a higher mpg car, and then decide to get an RV or a powerboat.
Our goals of growing the economy and improving living standards around the world, also conflict with saving oil/energy. I wouldn't run my house-AC and woodstove at the same time.
I'll just start calling San Francisco... "Crisco."
:P
me: 600hp is what my cousin did. I didn't say others would choose 600hp. Now I don't belong to any car clubs or such but let me think how many people have upped their stock horsepower that I know. One of the 10 people I work with has put a turbo on his older Miata. And I've upped the hp on my car, and have toyed with the idea of a turbo.
But let's look at the bigger picture. http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/04/20/190614.html
Some part of the SEMA market is performance products. If a law was passed severely limiting hp from the factory - I'd guess you could Double their sales. So if you limit a Vette to 150 hp from the factory, GM will sell the car for what - maybe $30K is what they could get? then that $15K - $20K will be used to put a more powerful engine in it. People are not that lazy, that they wouldn't do this. Now if you pay $50K for a 400hp Vette, you're probably not going to go out and invest $20K for another 200hp; but you might spend $1K here and there on performance parts.
And why do you think a modified car or one with a new engine can't pass emissions? People aren't modifying their cars, and not driving them. Go to GM's Performance Part website and they'll sell you 600-700 hp engines that'll pass emissions.
.46 CENTS per GALLON!!
http://www.dieselsecret.com/?engine=overture!5052&keyword=biodiesel&OVRAW=biodie- - sel&OVKEY=biodiesel&OVMTC=standard
More than you ever wanted to know about biodiesel!?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
me: where would you get the energy from to separate enough hydrogen for us? You do know that the laws of Physics state that any energy source will come from a larger energy source?
Again. If companies' cars are meeting the same basic CAFE number year after year, as they are, then something else must be the cause of the future trends in this chart. http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/forecasting.html Remember that is U.S. only.
So unless someone can make a case that high hp is making a large difference in fuel usage, let's drop this uninformed subtopic that has developed. Prove the cause of the problem first; there's plenty of data out there.
me: Easily? Pick a 100hp car, one that'll hold 4 people and luggage in relative comfort, and figure how much hp that car will be using. If it's over 1/3 or maximum 1/2, I would not want that car.
I carpool with a guy who has an '03 Accord 4-cyl. 5-spd, and he has to downshift to go uphills. He can go up the hill above the speed limit all the way, but he does not have the power to decide what cars he stays in front of.
When we ride in my Firebird, I DECIDE who I pass and IF someone passes me. If I don't want to follow a tractor trailer or other slow drivers on the 2 lane road (except on hills where there is a passing lane), I do not follow them. So in my driving environment, my car's power allows me to decide my pace, and not be decided by the slowest vehicle on the road at that time. That is not a capability of a less powerful vehicles, such as my X-Type - which is driven in the bad weather, unless I want a higher risk-level of getting into a head-on accident.
There is also a much larger fun-factor accelerating in a more powerful car. That alone is worth it.
Now radios work great in urban areas, or even helicopters. The last time though I went around a curve at a spirited-speed, and went by an oncoming cop who braked, and thus I assumed was turning around, he had no chance to catch up to me and get his lights on. Cop cars do not have the acceleration and top-speed of many of today's cars to enforce the speed-limits in areas where there are not multiple police cars.
And then the other way people can speed without worrying about being ticketed is when there is so much high-speed traffic, there is no way for them to pull out from a median. This is just another way in which speed limits aren't enforceable.
In both cases the police do not have the power to enforce these undesired laws.
Great. So now you recognize that this horsepower-makes-sane-people-drive-like-maniacs argument was unreasonable, and can be dropped once and for all like a bad habit.
And by extension, excessive HP is not needed.
OK, guys, let's make a deal -- let's agree to refrain from the use of hollow descriptors like "massive" and "excessive". Instead, use some precise language to tell us what "excessive" is supposed to mean. What may be "excessive" to you may be chump change to somebody else (and seeing where this thread is going, probably is just that.)
Honda 4-cylinder type cars will do quite fine and provide all the power that anyone would need.
Obviously not, or else there wouldn't be other choices available to people choose to make.
Perhaps the European taxes that you favor, for putting heavy taxes on fuel at the pump, will slow sales on big HP cars and heavyweight SUVs if it were implemented in US.
A predictable response, being that there is an obvious, observable inverse correlation between the price of fuel and how much fuel people tend to consume. Whether it specifically impacts horsepower and SUV's is uncertain, but that would be a good guess.
The Civic is one of the country's top selling passenger cars. Look at the Top 10 list, and you won't find a Vette anywhere near it. (Of course, the lower price and high reliability of the Civic has a lot to do with it -- if a Civic could drive like a Vette with no added cost, many people would be pleased, I'm sure.)
With America having some of the largest coal reserves in the world, we'd be sitting pretty and could finally tell Saudi Arabia were to stuff itself.
:shades: