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The Growing Divergence Between Horsepower and Speed Limits
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The change in demand as a result of the OPEC crisis vis-a-vis long-run consumption and fuel consumption levels in Europe both prove you wrong.
Switching to more fuel efficient cars is a major capital investment that many are not ready to do at this time, nor would it be economically the best thing to do.
Er, it has already happened! What do you think happened to Detroit during the seventies?
Raising the price of gas will have very little effect on consumption.
You can say this all day long, but it doesn't make it so. We have examples both in the US and abroad of what happens when fuel prices are increased for sustained periods.
Ever wonder why Europeans have a lot more diesel cars? Because diesel is taxed at a far lower rate to make it a cheaper alternative to gasoline. Ever wonder why they drive cars of engines well below 1.8 liters? Because fuel costs a lot.
It's really weird for you to think that some draconian fee that requires a huge behemoth of bureaucracy and police to enforce with poor results makes any sense, while an easily collectable tax with a proven track record of success is dismissed as some bizarre concept. I might have to get myself over to Costco for those Monty Python DVD's....
But the problem is they are two different cars with one weighing significantly more than the other. The weight difference is enough to throw off the figures and make the comparison meaningless.
In this thread I made more accurate comparisons of the same make and model but between different size engines that clearly shows differences in fuel economy with different engines in the same car. A far more equitable comparison then between two different car.
The next BMW 3 series which is being compared as the "better alternative" is not much the better alternative considering it has 25% fewer cylinders and gets ONLY 6.7% better fuel mileage.
Actually it got 7.14% better gas mileage (2 divided by 28 not 30). That even though it is 5.3% heavier than the Vette.
Gee the heaver car got better gas mileage, must be because it had a less powerful engine.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Now unless you want to provide something other than your opinion we will leave it at that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
me: Exactly. The flow of traffic gets faster and faster with each passing year and the mre powerful vehicles, with the majority of the drivers exceeding even a +10mph tolerance.
The speed limits should be set based on democracy of what people want which = what the majority does. And people are telling auto-makers they want higher hp in all size engines and cars.
It is silly to tink that thhe speed limit needs to stay where it is when they have been changing since the first laws were written.
Your reponse is one strong anecdotal indication why conservation efforts will make little, if any differences.
Me, I have to settle for being content in taking the difference to the bank! So which is cheaper over 28,000 miles? (per year mileage)VW Jetta gasser with 24/31 mpg or VW Jetta TDI with 42/49 mpg epa?? 1167g/903g vs 667g/571g.
Whichever side of the ledger one is on, well, it has to be ok!?
Prey tell, where will you find the police and jail space to deal with the violators? (Perhaps you've found a way to get cops to work for free and for jails to build themselves at no cost to the taxpayer.) And after you've failed to achieve compliance, what will you do then?
Just how many violators, absolute or percent, in CA? How many in other states? What is acceptable threshhold? If over, what is action? If penalty is a "late fee" and is not effective, then stronger measures needed. Maybe a $500 late fee, that if not paid state will institute garnish. Other possibility is revocation of driver's license.
State just can't throw up hands and give up.
But, are we venturing into something that is beyond scope of board. Don't know what amount/percent of "violators" there are in my state re license plate tags. Maybe CA is higher than my state. There have been many articles in media over last decade, mostly before Arnold, of mismanagement of issues in CA such as electricty generation. Heard that lot of NIMBYs in CA.
Back to board topic, HP vs speed limits could have numerous possible measures to address. Exponentially higher yearly license plate tag fees for HP/weight is just one possibility. And, it can "easily" be implemented once legislatures authorize.
Posters on this board have said that one could go 100 MPH in modest HP 4-cylinder car on interstate. There is no logical reason to have monster HP vehicles licensed for use on public roads. But, if we have to, those that want should pay for priviledge just as those in mcmansions pay more than those in small ranches.
Been here and while I would love to have .74/gal gas it has nothing to do with the fact that I used almost just as much gas when it was $3 a gallon last fall as I did when it was $1.50 a few years ago.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
No, I didn't say that. I said that the Accord (a) can easily maintain these horrific speeds of which you are so afraid, and (b) that the Accord's power was better matched to its other capabilities than the Camaro and other muscle cars of old. That does mean the Accord gets to 60 mph from a stop more quickly, but as has already been noted, you don't need 300 hp in a modern car to be able to cruise at 90 mph.
Care to give figures or just content to make the claim. fact its gas prices continue to rise and our consumption has dropped little in relation to the price increase.
You can say this all day long, but it doesn't make it so.
No what makes it so is that while prices increase our use only drops slightly. Simple fact that we are engaged in this thread about high HP cars with poor gas mileage even though we have some of the highest gas prices ever proves my point.
Ever wonder why Europeans have a lot more diesel cars?
Maybe they don't care about noisy smelly cars like we do.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
me: so what if it does? I think that's each individual's choice as to how much they want to burn. The whole purpose of money is to allow people to buy "which" and "what quantities" of a resource they want.
Would we want laws as to "how much you can drive", or some bureaucrat determining whether it is a waste to have an RRV when they feel you can drive a 40mpg Rio and stay in a cabin?
The last I checked, I can buy a big cigarboat and drive around in circles on the ocean, until I've used up all my money on fuel. And I can do that for no better reason than I think it's fun.
Let's face it the last fuel crisis and all the energy conservation has not reduced fuel/energy usage. The world wiill continue to burn any and all fossil fuels until thhey are gone. There is no different outcome until there is some amazing technology - like cold fusion or really cheap and good solar and wind energy-collection technology.
"More police" is simply a non-answer, because there aren't enough of them to deal with laws that are so strict that everyone disobeys them, and there isn't enough money to pay for them. Think Prohibition and the 55 mph limit -- miserable failures in terms of compliance rates, the amount of resources squandered in achieving such low compliance, and an abuse of the public trust by imposing laws that the citizens didn't want.
So, how is this supposed to work? So far, your ideas haven't worked when applied to other circumstances, so there isn't much reason to see why the outcome would suddenly be different here. (And when the crime rate otherwise goes up when the cops are forced to enforce such a silly law, let's see how quick you are to disavow responsibility for the predictable result.)
In any case, I don't know why tax thing is under discussion, when it will never happen. This is your pet topic, but it has no bearing on reality -- it just isn't going to happen.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
ya i know im lazy i ignore mail and i move alot not to recive it, there is also a big indicator on my licence plate telling me the month and year to renew, i forget or i just dont care, but i still get away with not registering, so to make up for that, if my car did not start one morning becasue i forgot or just did not go register my car, well that might make me think wow, maybe i should take care of that, seeing how there are so many ppl like me out there and worse who have been drinving on expired or stolen tags for 5 or so years, that is what im saying not everyone is like you and can get there mail on time and want to pay the goverment more money just to drive so there are ppl that dont. i am willing to, i just want to make sure everyone else out there does to.. so if they could not start there car and the only way for them to be able to would be to get a new chip for there car well that migh tmake more ppl register on time or register period, or take the bus...
so sorry for not being so orginized in my life like you are..
That's true, I guess those plummeting SUV sales must be just a coincidence. And the fact that small and mid-sized sedans such as Corolla and Accord dominate the passenger car sales figures doesn't tell us anything about demand...
(And surely you are trolling about the diesel comment.)
Mostly the range is between 44-62. The range in daily 50 miles R/T commute is 47-52.
But actually that works for me, I just take the differences to the bank, as I said in another post.
From post # 667
"What permits drivers of today's Accords to drive more quickly and more safely than the Camaro drivers of the '60's "
Sounds like you said it to me.
can easily maintain these horrific speeds of which you are so afraid,
What makes you say that? I never said I was afraid of those speeds.
That does mean the Accord gets to 60 mph from a stop more quickly,
Sorry the Accord (especially the 4 banger version) cannot get to 60 MPH faster than a 60's era Camaro Z28.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well that was the argument made and that was the argument you apparently tried to dismiss in your post comparing to completely different vehicles.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That was a typo, which was my mistake, of course -- I had meant to say "That does NOT mean the Accord gets to 60 mph from a stop more quickly" -- but should have been obvious based upon my previous posts.
"What permits drivers of today's Accords to drive more quickly and more safely than the Camaro drivers of the '60's "
Argh. The Accord driver can cruise at higher speeds with greater safety than the Camaro driver -- I didn't say that the Camaro wasn't capable of the speeds, but that the Accord would do a better job of safely maintaining those speeds. The Accord at 80 mph is a safer car than the Camaro was -- drivers intuit this, which is why they drive more quickly than they used to.
me: If your goal is to save energy, let me give you the facts that I calculated for a prior forum - "I Don't Like SUV's ..." If we could get rid of all the SUV's and put the driver's in a typical car - a 4 cyl. Camry, U.S. oil consumption would be reduced by 2%. Since the U.S. uses 25% of the world's oil (by the way I took info. from the DOE and the CAFE numbers) That's a 1-Time change. It means that with population growth and economic growth, the usage numbers will continue to grow.
Feel free to go to the DOE website, and start converting people from hp-cars to whatever you think a normal car should be, and you'll see it's a very small savings. Feel free to try and make a case that reducing hp is going to make any sort of real difference in oil usage.
Within reason. Just because there may be strong wants by some does not necessarily mean that it is a proper course. How many folks would "want" to cut their fed taxes in half, or better yet pay no fed taxes? How many posters give/gave unlimitted amounts of candy to their kids?
Until laws of physics can somehow be negated, increasing velocities will always have higher risks. Higher HP, such as on Z06 or Bugatti, enables these cars to go 3 to 4 times the speed of highest posted in US. Massive HP not needed for current levels of speed limits.
me: Hey that's almost plagiarizing my remarks that trying to save the world by burning less gas in you car, without getting the whole world to cut back is like "bailing water on the Titantic".
Yeah, and the Titanics are vehicles with massive HP and/or weight.
so i think you need to hop out of your numbers and percentage signs and hop into the real world and see what is really going on around you...
me: But I could argue that the current fatality rate of 41K (approx.) is unreasonable and not the proper course now. It is simply what we ARE used to and accept. Why wouldn't we accept slightly higher. We know w to lower it from 41K, but we don't care to drive slower or use race safety-technology.
you: How many folks would "want" to cut their fed taxes in half, or better yet pay no fed taxes?
me: and we should have that if we agree to cut back what we get in return. I have no problem with that. But fighting what people want is what lobbyists and the government want - they want money. Why? Because money is power? And with power they control the rules and sometimes force unpopular rules on us supposedly "for our own good".
you: Until laws of physics can somehow be negated, increasing velocities will always have higher risks.
me: So what? If you want minimum risk then you want no motion. If people didn't accept risk they wouldn't drive. The speed limit should be based on what level of risk (and fatalities and injuries) people are willing to accept.
Just throw up our hands in anguish and give up. Oh woe is us. Nothing can be done. We will somehow live with it. Maybe look the other way and hope that it will all turn out ok in the end.
To add to the discussion on fuel savings, to me the only way to keep the stores in the ground is to leave it in the ground. This is totally contrary to what is really happening, as most folks will agree.
One graph (there are I am sure many links and many graphs) is in the WSJ Thur, 25 Jan 2006, pg A5 bottom of first col, "A look at world production and consumption".
While not in a straight 45 degree rise, the percentage INCREASE has gone up from app 4% 1st quarter 2004 has gone UP to app 10% 4qt 2005. Needless to say prices have been generally UP.
Easy, we'll hire special Registration Police, create Registration Courts and build special Registration Jails to house all the inmates. And if we end up with more robbery and theft because the cops ignore the burgled liquor store in favor of hauling off another Horsepower Criminal off to prison where he belongs, then that's the price we pay to live in a horsepower free society!
i said with the technology of today they can invent a car that will take a computerized registration chip to go inside of the engine, that if your registration is due the first of febuary, and you have not gotten the new chip by the last day of feb, then on march 1st your car will not start at all. untill you get the new chip, hence making you pay your registration or you dont drive..
so you throw your hands up and give up, i will at least come up with ideas to resolve the problem..
The only one in anguish is you. Most of us don't have a hang-up about powerful cars. If you don't want one, or can't afford to own one, then don't buy one.
More countries competing with US for oil. All the more reason to encourage sensibly powered vehicles in US along with current posted speed limits. US needs to cut down on amount of imported oil somehow.
The amount of fuel needed to increase speed over approx 50 MPH increases exponentially, not linearly, because of air drag/friction. Hope that US can continue to get all oil that we need and use "responsibly". Heard from old relatives that US did have gas rationing in past. That was a very bad scene and there was a lot of black market stuff going on. Don't ever want to go there again.
Talk about being overly dramatic. No need to create anything. Procedures, systems already in place.
But, I think you are onto something. Above has some very good elements for a few sketches on Monty Python if it were resurrected. Might want to add some aclu folks into the mix.
As you know Euro is app the same geographical size, mileage travelled, population, etc. and passenger vehicle fleet as the USA. What might be telling is fully 45% of the vehicle fleet AND GROWING IS diesel vs 2.3%-2.9% in the USA AND SHRINKING; if the powers that be have anything to say about it .
Diesel of course is almost totally pooh poohed in the USA:
AND IT SHOWS IN THE DEMAND!!!!
Yes and I have posted the 5,000 dollar threshold. (on the street reality)
I suppose that we can use all of the excellent enforcement mechanisms that worked during Prohibition and the 55-mph limit era, because we know those all worked so well. Surely a law that was violated by eight out of every ten citizens, from school teachers to accountants to factory workers, must be considered a resounding success!
by the way xrunner2 that was sarcasim, im sure you do know what that is right..
Maybe don't understand your point. Do you want 45 limit raised to 60-65, even though there are traffic lights every 1/2 mile? Or is your stang too powerful for a 45 limit road?
Like I have posted, I go 80 mph in the slow lane and out of 100 cars I am like 90-95/100 (extremely well back for those that seem to want to see criminality here) . I reasonably have past fully laden tractor trailers only.
Just yesterday a CHP in prowl mode slips into the traffic flow, I, of course slow to 75 mph. (what a waste) As soon as he gets his bearings, he zips completely out of sight in a very, very short time.
What the heck does prohibition have to do with a license plate yearly tag? If I recall from newspaper articles, our state (and probably most others) has required yearly renewals of license tags for at least 60 years. Procedures are in place. It is not rocket science and is accepted by the driving public.
I would bet a cup of coffee that license plate tag renewals (in time, not late) in my state are above 80 percent for school teachers, accountants and factory workers. I don't know if I could get this data from Secretary of State office. We had an increase in fee amount approx 15 years ago. Some people grumbled, but they paid.
L/E has clearly declined (actually adamantly resisted) doing this.
Now this is interesting in that AL Quaida has indicated it has already funnelled "freedom" fighters into the USA via the southern USA borders. So in theory, Osama bin Laden could be motoring on the LA 405 freeway with a camera crew thumbing his nose for the klieg lights, as he goes by.