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The Growing Divergence Between Horsepower and Speed Limits
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The most I did in one day was just under 1,300 miles, and that was driving a car that had 140 HP. Most likely would have taken the same amount of time if I had 200, 300 or even 400 HP.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
No I don't agree with you because you are being absurd.
Better emergency response care?
Sure better medical treatments on site and at the hospital, plus more and more ability to bring in medi-vacs.
Hmmm how many new trama centers are being built in your neck of the woods??
Well there is one being built maybe two miles away.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The only thing absurd is it is not being done! You are in effect seeing the results.
No new ones being built in this neck of the woods.
I haven't kept up with it's status, but I always thought that would be something useful to keep in the glove compartment. Whether you ever used it in your own vehicle or came across an accident, the cost is small, if you value your life or others' lives.
But whether you could get people to buy it, I don't know, as if it's a low probability of usage, some will argue against getting it.
That is a laugh. Anyone serious about driving tight, twisty, hilly roads would not choose a Vette. A Mini would eat it up. Now this is on pavement. If you try the gravel twisties, Vette has absolutely no chance of keeping up. As a matter of fact, Vette owners I have known are afraid to drive on gravel.
The mini has the same weight and hp as the Honda Civic at 115 hp. So if snakeweasel is correct 140 hp/ whatever torque would have over powered it by at least 25 hp. With equal drivers, my money would be on the 140 hp horse.
Huh. Instead of making the engine smaller and using the electric motors to bring the power back to where it was, the engine is left alone, and the motor used to add power. Hmm, must be what the market wants, as Toyota hasn't made many mistakes in the last 20 years. And check out that V-6. Way to go Toyota! Oh don't miss the wording under the 2nd picture on the right.
Now just bring back the Supra with 500hp twin turbo + awd. Give us an affordable Lambo Gallardo.
Done it, but in a mundane Firebird Formula. Would agree.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The mileage was the overall for that leg (2500 miles) range was 44-52. So are you in disbelief when the car can go from a normal 47-51 mpg commute to 44,45,46,47,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,61,62?
So do you see any variance here in what I am saying?
Or are you still mad over some imaginary tiff?
I say what I mean, I have always said the in many places speed limits should be increased, I just recognized that there is an increased danger in that. I have done dangerous things all my life, recognizing the danger and acting appropriately has helped me make it this far in one piece.
I know a Vette owner who did say that that type of road is not the best for Vettes.
Seems to me the Vette driver had two choices, either pass you and continue or drop back and increase the following distance.
No place to pass along the way, no place for about three miles that had a view distance of more than one or two hundred feet. But he did try to keep up with me until that second turn. I turned off the road right at the end and saw him race out of the last turn with a little fish tail.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
So what makes you think most other folks don't have that same instinct?
I said it in a prior post, he made the right move. I am curious to understand why you don't think that also? Especially after you further elaborated.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
We'll being seeing a revolution in materials in the next 20 years, so I'm sure many of those will allow car and engine designers all sorts of improvements.
How many Vettes has anybody seen on the WRC (World Rally Championship) tour? In recent years? Or, going back to pre WRC in 60's, 70's in Europe. Drivers then, with or without factory support, were choosing Minis, Saabs, Citroens, Ford Cortinas, etc. No Vettes.
Years ago, drivers serious about driving challenging roads (gravel, dirt, twisty, etc.) did not pick high HP Vettes.
Not to mention your story has changed over time. Lets get back on this when you claim 50+ MPG.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
True for Vette, but not for Mini. Before AWD became standard fare in WRC, and WRC predecessor series, FWD cars such as Mini, Saab, Citroen, etc. ruled. Check history. Nobody serious about competing showed up in a RWD.
Of course the story changes, it changes with each trip, every fueling. SPEED, load, etc etc. You might be fluid in reality but you sure do not come across that way in print.
I am not like you who would say he got 50 mpg no matter what.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But seriously, I used to get 40mpg combined on my 4-spd. auto CRX, so I don't see 50mpg out-of-reach for a diesel on a car not much bigger.
That as you know is one of the cool things about the diesel. You can pretty much chose a style and then get a range but the RANGE can be higher than most folks get in fuel mileage.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Too bad you probably did not have an opp to turn on a twisty uphill gravel road, and one with a crown. Vette driver would have stopped about one block up the gravel.
All that excess HP of "absolutely" no use.
So for example, if I may be un PC, a commode hugging drunk gets into his/her car, smashes into a bridge abuttment and is the lone accident and fatality. Again if I might be un pc, he/she got what was coming to them. NOT so if others are involved? This to me is the senseless and unnecessary tragedy.
Not many of them around here that are like that. Most are staright going through farmland, but still fun to run.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
For those folks in Illinois, recall that area east of Galena has plenty twisty, hilly roads - many paved, some gravel. Great scenery too.
The point that I've made here, and let's use your Mini as an example, is that the Cooper S will be faster on a gravel road than a regular Cooper. And that Cooper S would even be better if it had more capability - by having AWD and even a more powerful engine. And more powerful, fade resistant brakes, and better tires. Heck if it had Harrier-type jet thrusters and could fly straight to the top of the mountain at 1,000 mph that would be super. That is what I'm for.
More horsepower does not equal more capability. More horsepower is always desireable, but it has to come with less green house effect, less emissions, better gas mileage and more capability for the car. The Vette is an absolute waste in this regard, limited capability as a vehicle, limited weather usage, the new Vettes are not even good looking.
It would eventually get to a point that more HP would be detrimental to the vehicles performance. Sure, 160 HP might be underpowered, 200 HP might be underpowred, but once you start going over 250 HP for a standard car, the majority of the HP is never utilized. It becomes wasteful because 98% of the time, you're lugging around that extra weight and burning the extra gas for that 2% of the time that YOU say you'll need it.
And I must say that the examples that you have provided could easily be avoided .
All the while we are building bigger vehicles with more horsepower than can possibly be used. Gas guzzler taxes have to liberally applied to the excess in "trucks like the Escalade". High hp to weight vehicles similarly should be heavily taxed.
People who say they need 500 hp as a daily driver are not being truthful. But people who want to own/drive these cars maybe should be given a "mileage" tax. Drop the gas guzzler tax and tax the car on a per mile basis. Make the owners of these vehicles pay estimated "mileage" taxes quarterly. Seems like that would be fairer than a gas guzzler tax.
Manufacturers have got to stop building these insane cars, and we have to reduce our dependency on mideast oil. If gas was still $1.00 gallon, think Toyota would be able to sell a hybrid? The reason gas is so expensive is due to increased demand of the world and excessive use in this country.
I'm not sure why you'd believe this when every exotic on the market has horsepower figures well above 250 hp.
The weight isn't a problem from a performance standpoint if it is balanced with sufficient power, gearing, aerodynamics, etc. to compensate. Yes, it uses fuel, but that is not "detrimental" from a performance standpoint. Environmental concerns aren't relevant when considering the car strictly from the standpoint of power and dynamics. (Whether cars should or should not be fuel-efficient is a somewhat different topic.)
OK. We can add more examples of uselessness/stupidity of 505 HP car: Going to/coming from work in rush-hour stop-and-go traffic, going shopping to grocery/hardware/other, going to church/mosque/temple, driving on any city/suburban streets with 30 MPH traffic, driving on 35-50 MPH suburban roads, driving through/in small towns, driving in rain, driving on gravel/snow/ice covered roads, driving in foggy conditions, taking kid (1?) to school, taking r.e. client to see houses, taking client to lunch, filling up more frequently at gas station, making call at house of possible client (Hey, I have got a 505 HP Vette), taking an elderly parent/relative to doctor, etc., etc., etc.
To be fair, have to list positives: Will do well in drags and at drag strips, will impress other Vette owners and some ladies at bars, have bragging rights in neighborhood/town for 2nd highest HP production vehicle (after Bugatti), a 19-year old boy driving his father's Z06 (lot of trust by father + insurance) would probably be able to attract some high school girls that otherwise might not have, 19-year old boy will impress his buddies,
If you want people to conserve fuel, that's fine (not quite on topic, but sure, it's a fair agenda.) But attacking horsepower is a symptom -- if you really care about fuel consumption, then focus on the fuel consumption, irrespective of the specific factors that cause it to be used.
Drop the gas guzzler tax and tax the car on a per mile basis. Make the owners of these vehicles pay estimated "mileage" taxes quarterly.
That exactly contradicts your alleged concern for fuel consumption. And in any case, how would anyone possibly monitor and regulate such a tax? (This would be about as easy, consistent and productive as would be enforcing your absurdly low speed limits, that also didn't work.)
Way too much drama when the Europeans offer an obvious answer -- high fuel taxes. People generally respond to high fuel prices by consuming less fuel and seeking out alternatives, such as public transport, hence the smaller cars common to Europe and their lower per-capita fuel usage. Combine that with a decent public transit system and incentives and fees that motivate manufacturers and buyers to prefer to build and purchase more efficient cars (oriented toward fuel efficiency, not weight, horsepower, pink paint jobs, leather steering wheels and lots of other irrelevant factors), and voila! you'll end up with reduced fuel usage.
(Of course, small engines don't prevent Europeans from using their freeways as intended by driving faster. No, reducing horsepower, weight and displacement isn't slowing anyone down one whit.)
Let's leave the exotics out of this discussion.
The weight isn't a problem from a performance standpoint if it is balanced with sufficient power, gearing, aerodynamics, etc. to compensate. Yes, it uses fuel, but that is not "detrimental" from a performance standpoint. Environmental concerns aren't relevant when considering the car strictly from the standpoint of power and dynamics. (Whether cars should or should not be fuel-efficient is a somewhat different topic.)
Yes fuel efficiency is a different topic, but efficiency in itself, is on topic. Cars with 400 HP are not efficient on todays roads because the power potential is hardly ever achieved.
And if you want to talk about raising the speed limits so these engines CAN be utlized slightly better, that in itself poses another conundrum. Do ALL vehicles on the road get to drive faster or just certain ones? Does that mean I can't take my vintage roadster out on the highway because it's safety features aren't up to snuff? Do you create one lane that is the speed lane? That won't work well in the States (as it does in Europe) because there is more congestion.
The speed limits were devised to handle all types of vehicles so everyone could travel at the same speed. THAT is the most efficient way to get from point A to point B.
One of my points on this thread is to point out that people driving modern cars can drive faster with improved safety, whether or not they have the horsepower. What permits drivers of today's Accords to drive more quickly and more safely than the Camaro drivers of the '60's is not the horsepower -- a 4-cylinder Accord does not have anywhere near the horsepower of a large-block V-8 -- but other characteristics of the car such as the suspension, tires and brakes.
These improvements have effectively increased the usuable design speeds of our freeways, and dictate the speed at which the average driver feels is safe enough to pilot his car. And we can see that Europeans generally have much less powerful cars, yet they drive faster than do Americans. That difference in preferred driving speed is not dictated by horsepower figures, a modern small 4-cylinder car can cruise all day long at 100 mph if it is designed properly.
If you want to impose a solution that makes people want to drive slower, then make the cars worse and reduce their ability to handle and ride to a point that driving at higher speeds feels scary, and drivers will slow down because their lack of a death wish will cause them to respond to the perceived limitations of the car. But that isn't going to happen, and there is no reason for it to happen.
The speed limits were devised to handle all types of vehicles so everyone could travel at the same speed. THAT is the most efficient way to get from point A to point B.
Sadly, I wish that was the case, but it isn't. If highway engineers had their way, they'd allow the flow of traffic to set most speed limits, not the other way around, because excessively low limits don't help safety and are impossible to enforce. As it turns out now, our freeway speed limits tend to be set by legislators who know a lot more about pork barrel projects than they do about traffic engineering.
Not a good solution. European fuel taxes unfairly tax poorer people. It is a regressive tax. There is a better method to supplement current US federal fuel taxes for road construction and maintenance. That would be a yearly license plate user fee for all vehicles that would be tied to a vehicle's overall HP and overall weight and the vehicle's pounds/HP. A Chevy Aveo would have a very small fee as an example. A Z06 or Escalade or Bugatti would be very high.
The main road into Galena is by far the most scenic. The main problem is that Galena is a big tourist area and is close enough to make a great day trip or weekend trip to. That being the case that road is very congested especially on weekends.
Anyways, I had a Mustang way back when that was great on gravel roads. But then again it only had an I-6 engine.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Try Tuesday-Thursday. Also, when on main road, which is mostly on ridges, one can see to north, a little to south, all of the neat driving roads. Get off main road and do back roads.
Will not need any monster HP car to enjoy back roads near Galena, or for that matter numerous other places in US - NC, Virginia, SE-W Wisc, UP MI, Ky, etc.
Fixed income taxes are regressive, consumption taxes are meant to reduce consumption. If someone wants to use less fuel, then the answers are simple -- they can drive less and buy a more fuel efficient car.
Every law brings with it two issues: achieving voluntary compliance, and consistent, fair and easily maintained enforcement. A fuel tax is simple: it's easy to collect, it is difficult to evade, and the social engineering aspects are easy, because the consumer clearly understands it well enough to adjust his behavior accordingly.
Your tax would be inherently draconian, and require a massive new bureaucracy to collect it. If it were to ever happen (which it won't), probably the biggest federal legislative joke since the double nickel...
Your tax would be inherently draconian, and require a massive new bureaucracy to collect it. If it were to ever happen (which it won't), probably the biggest federal legislative joke since the double nickel...
Voluntary compliance? Never heard of IRS saying to wage earners, "We trust you to send in a check for your fair share of Fed taxes every week". It is of course withheld from wage earner.
Our state had yearly license plate fee based on HP up till about 15-20 years ago.
"Massive new bureaucracy" - There are these inventions called: Computers, computer networks, internet, intranet, accessible data bases (for HP, weight data of vehicles) of vehicle manufacturers. Any small administrative fee by states to handle this in yearly license plate user fee is "merely" passed along to vehicle owner.
2001 Z06 Corvette, epa 19/28 mpg, 385 hp
2006 BMW 550 I, epa 16/23 mpg, 360 hp
2006 BMW 330 CI, epa 20/30 manual, 19/27 auto, 225 hp
I guess you would have us believe 16/23 and 19/27 mpg is better than 19/28 mpg and by a whole lot!!
Now the back roads (such as the old stage coach trail and blackjack road) are pretty much empty and from my conversations with the county sheffis people (yes I know a couple of their officers) and they tell me its really not that bad on those roads with most accidents being low speed sometimes with livestock involved.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D