Toyota Fearing Hyundai?

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Comments

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    I however can't "see" how one could say the Azera/Sonata are better cars than a Acura TL or RL. True they both are more expensive, but you also sometimes get what you pay for and unfortunatly the Azera is a Yugo, when compared to a Acura. ;) Do you really think the Koreans are up to Japanese level of expierence ? I showed the 3 car comparo and proved the Hyundai brand may cost less, but you also get thousand of dollars less in Technology both inside and out. Not to mention residuals :P

    Rocky
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    ....long term reliability as well. This is something that gets completely overlooked when these mags make their claims that Hyundais rival the best Japanese vehicles in terms of reliability. Their claims are based on INITIAL quality, which we all know doesn't necessarily mean anything when it comes to long term reliability. When the Koreans can start building vehicles that can run for 200K+ miles, with as few required repairs as Japanese vehicles, then I'll start believing they're built on the same level of build quality.
  • kingsalmonkingsalmon Member Posts: 97
    Initial quality means nothing? So you think Lexus being #1 in initial quality means nothing? I guess Toyota, Honda, and Acura are crappy cars because they scored well on the initial quality test. Hmmm... do I sense double standard here?

    Hyundai just recently started testing well on initial quality. It's just my educated guess that superb initial quality right now usually equates to good/fair long term reliability.

    Hyundai/Mitsubishi made poorly engineered vehicles in the past (hyundai excel/mitsu precis). Now Hyundai is designing a supposedly super-reliable i4 "world engine" for Mitsubishi/Daimler Chrysler. But ofcourse that means nothing to those of us living in the past.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,359
    ..... Bottgers makes a good point ... and the word you're using here is "supposedly.."

    Remember plasma TV's just a few very short years ago.? ... JD Powers gave them a big hoot and holler as far as "initial quality" when they first came out .... as we speak, they're not lasting 3,000/5,000 hours depending on the size, but people buy those everyday ....

    Lexus and the rest have earned their quality marks over a long period of time and there is thousands of them running around with 150k+ .... Hyundai is still in Junior High and we'll see if it meets the same grade and makes it to High School ....



    Terry.
  • ikces81ikces81 Member Posts: 10
    most OEMs use Delphi as suppliers, I dont think hyundai uses johnson controls or gentex.. if they do, wot parts are they??
    hyundai and toyota have the most stocks in their main suppliers, like hyundai mobis and asisn (i think), so in theory they cant take control of their suppliers and stop selling to competitors.
    toyota can do the same for delphi...
  • ubbermotorubbermotor Member Posts: 307
    Initial quality means nothing. Volkswagen does well the first 6 months and by the 2 year mark are struggling not to be the worst rated brand. Your looking at a real short term lease it thats what your basing a purchase on.
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    The difference is the best Japanese auto makers have proven over the years they can and do produce vehicles with superior build quality because of the thousands of their vehicles that go 200K+ miles and just keep going. The Koreans are just now receiving high marks for initial quality, but there's really nothing known about their long term reliability FOR SURE. People assume that because they receive good initial quality reviews, that automatically means long term reliability will be just as good. That doesn't necessarily ring true.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    most OEMs use Delphi as suppliers, I dont think hyundai uses johnson controls or gentex.. if they do, wot parts are they?? Johnson Controls makes about every interior part for about every car on the market. Gentex makes about every mirror including Hyundai's which my mother ran the other nite. ;)


    hyundai and toyota have the most stocks in their main suppliers, like hyundai mobis and asisn (i think), so in theory they cant take control of their suppliers and stop selling to competitors.
    toyota can do the same for delphi... Toyota depends on Delphi for alot of parts and would be shut down for awhile if Delphi closed it's doors.

    Rocky
  • kingsalmonkingsalmon Member Posts: 97
    Fair enough. However, I do maintain that initial quality is a must in order to do well in long term reliability and it is a good indication of the quality of the car. I think Japanese cars did well, but they started somewhere. Hyundai might not be at the quality level of Toyota yet, but they're getting there. That is why Toyota fears Hyundai. I think, though, that everyone will start fearing the Chinese cars if they produce anything half-decent. My 2cents.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    "I think, though, that everyone will start fearing the Chinese cars if they produce anything half-decent. My 2cents."

    If Gelly is any indication of what to expect from the Chinese, Hyundai might as well be ranked on the same level as Lexus. Those things are atrocious...

    Coming soon to an area near you:

    Geely Chopshop Motorworks
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    I wonder if they will have a performance division using Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engines :surprise:

    Rocky
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    Exactly. I remember when Toyota was in grade school (60s) then junior high (70s/80s).

    Toyota has proved they belong in the big leagues.

    Things move faster nowadays. If Hyundai/Kia keeps their fast growth with quality and a warranty to back it up they could be a real volume player in 5-7 years.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,359
    ..... I know what you mean ...

    I remember (waaay back) when one of my buddies used to sell Honda and Kawasaki motorcycles out of his garage - new.!

    I was standing on his front porch when he got the letter from Honda when they said they would "give" him a car dealership -- and pay for it.! .. dirt, building, parts *and* the inventory, the whole deal .. the whole Coma se' Yama and the bag of chips, of course there were only 20 in the country at that time ..... well, them days are over ..l.o.l... now it takes $5 mill just to get rollin' .................... we'll see ..



    Terry ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    Agree. However if China builds a better Azera/Sonata, it will be MOOT ! :P

    Rocky
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    If China actually comes out with an Azera or Sonata, current owners should feel right at home since it will most likely be a blatant ripoff of the original. Heck, they might as well just buy a fleet of Huyndais' remove the badge and throw them on the lot. Pretty much all the effort that goes into them at the moment...
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    Is it expensive right now to get a Kia or Hyundai franchise?

    Are there any franchises right now that you would term a 'good deal'?

    I don't mean a steal, like a Honda franchise in 1969, just a good deal.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,359
    ....... Right now, it's expensive to open any dealership ....

    A lot of it has to do with the location, what part of the country, size and dimensions (minimum 3, 4 acres) all of the city/county building permits and approvals (which is always a blast) then stuff like OSHA, slope of the property, drainage requirements, the cost of display signs (which is $50,000++) and then hope you picked the right quality builder for the standing building *and hope* it all pans out in a timely fashion (and the word here is timely - 140/180 days out, and you could be suckin' an exhaust pipe) ....

    Then, all you gotta do is fill the interior up with service lifts, a parts department (and the parts for that "parts department") computers, furniture, carpets, tile, showroom glass, electrical, air conditioning, heaters, plumbing etc, etc, etc ...... and when that's all done, just bring in the people ... and that becomes a whole long drawn out deal I won't get into ..l.o.l...

    The advantage the Hyun/Kia dealers have today is .. they can combine franchises into one showroom, they're not restricted (yet) to CSI and they don't have to upgrade their service departments (yet) ..... that said, once the hammer comes down from the manufacturer in (pick a number) 2,3 or 4 years .. or the other franchise holds court (which they will) then their prices will go waaaay up ... so this will be interesting.

    To answer your question ... on the right day, with the right alignment of Mars and Jupiter and you haven't missed a Sunday at church and you know people in high places, then you're looking at $2 mill just to get the doors open on the "first day" ....... the question is, what do you do on the second day...?



    Terry ;)
  • danf1danf1 Member Posts: 935
    The hammer has already dropped. Hyundai now requires its own exclusive showroom. There are some dealers left that were grandfathered, but I don't imagine that will last much longer.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    For all of the Hyundai bashers on this forum . . . who among you have actually owned a Hyundai? If you haven't owned one previously, or currently own one, then I don't think you are in the position to debate their vices or virtues.

    I guess some of you folks aren't old enough to remember that most of the original Japanese cars that initially hit these shores were "blatant ripoffs" of previous American and European designs, especially much of the mechanical bits and pieces. And, their quaility was nothing to write home about either.

    I refrain from posting comments on the quality or reliability of a Buick, for example, on Edmunds.com, as I've never owned one. Others here should show the same restraint if they've never owned a Hyundai.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,359
    ... **some dealers left that were grandfathered ....**

    Aaaaah, the magic word: "some" ..... that leaves a bunch yet to go ... and depending on their dealer agreement, they can be 5 years out ...



    Terry.
  • ubbermotorubbermotor Member Posts: 307
    My wife drove an Accent for 2 years(Purchased new), it made any 15 year old Buick look like a better buy. Yes I know they've improved (I have friends that own them), but when my wife was lefted stranded 3 times due to the same part failure in the first year, Hyundai is a dirty word in this house.
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,828
    For all of the Hyundai bashers on this forum . . . who among you have actually owned a Hyundai? If you haven't owned one previously, or currently own one, then I don't think you are in the position to debate their vices or virtues.

    Actually helped my preacher friend negotiate a manufacturer buy-back on two separate vehicles before I landed him in a Ford Taurus that he has driven for ten years without a problem. (He is the forgiving sort and was ready to give them a THIRD chance.)

    I know the mantra that is coming "but they have a 10 year 100,000 warranty." To which my response is ... "because they need it."
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    If you haven't owned one previously, or currently own one, then I don't think you are in the position to debate their vices or virtues.

    I'm sorry, but that's a poor argument. There is plenty of data available about vehicle reliability, which is certainly more valuable that just one person's experience, either way. A survey such as one from JD Power, which gets data from thousands of owners, is going to provide useful information that would be foolish to ignore.

    Hyundai has done well with initial quality scores, and has certainly made strides to improve, but whether that translates into long-term durability remains to be seen. It will take several years to see whether it proves to be a strong contender or not (although the way things are going, I suspect that they will be a very serious player soon enough.)
  • pocono35pocono35 Member Posts: 89
    Back up your comments with data. Here's some data for ya:

    Inital Quality: Hyundai Initial Quality Exceeded Toyota Brand by 3 points in 2004 and tied Honda

    Long-Term Durability: Hyundai's long term durability exceeded Nissan, GM and SUBURU?......hmmmmmm

    Brand Loyalty: The Hyundai brand is above average in brand loyalty among imports.

    Warranty Repairs for 2005: Hyundai reported savings of nearly $50 million! this year on warranty repairs due to overestimation.

    What it Means: Hyundai's are actually performing more reliably than THEY even projected.

    Now tell me, what other manufacturer who sells THREE QUARTERS OF A MILLION CARS IN NORTH AMERICA is providing the consumer with:

    5 year 60,000 miles bumper to bumper
    10 year 100,000 powertrain
    5 year unlimited roadside

    .....and is not spending what they projected to tow, repair them, repair them long-term?

    That's right, noone because only Honda, Toyota and Nissan build more cars as imports and the big three with the exception of Ford won't touch that warranty due to reliability issues.

    I realize its a marketeing ploy to get Hyundai on the radar but Hyundai has to deliver and over the last 4 years they are delivering and more quickly than any other automaker in history!!!!
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    Three or four years is not a long time when the average car in the US is over eight years old.

    The point is that the track record is not very long, and it remains to be seen whether an eight year old Hyundai is comparable to an eight year old Toyota. Personally, I think that the next generation of Hyundais are going to go a long way toward improving perceptions and probably will end up going the distance, but you won't know either way until several years have passed.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMMember Posts: 7,615
    be poster children for quality and superior products?

    Are you talking about the same Ford Motor Company that I am? Ford was the company I bought my last three vehicles from (counting Mercury, yes)before switching over to Kia.
    To be fair, they weren't raving rattlebuckets, but the '94 Escort wagon did produce an exhaust manifold leak that needed warranty work(thank goodness my weak Ford warranty covered me on that one)and the first one(a 1996 Mercury Lynx station wagon)actually caught fire in the steering column.

    That was a first, one of my rigs actually catching fire. Turns out it was a manufacturer defect, a faulty wire design in the steering column-apparently a wire run was installed too closely to the ignition switch and could catch fire. That was before the recall that came later so Ford did not respond with reimbursement when my Lynx caought fire. Car insurance did cover about 75% of the cost of repairs for this incident but I was required to pay the cost of the parts of the car that started the fire(an insurance ruling). Ended up being $475 or something like that. Plus my Lynx was in the Ford dealer for about 2 weeks!

    I remember crap like that and show my disenchantentment by not buying any more Ford products. The last Ford product I bought was in 1997, a used Escort with 18,000 miles on it. To be fair, I didn't have an issue with this one except a shopping cart hitting it in the side. That was simply a stiff northwest wind up in Burlington, Washington, blowing a cart at us at about 20 mph. These girls walking into the grocery store had the audacity to actually laugh at the incident. Can you believe that? Traded that Ford in (dent and all)to Jerry Smith Chev-Buick-Kia in Anacortes, WA in 1999 for my beloved '99 Kia Sephia and the rest is written down in cyber-history for all to know and enjoy to the full.

    South Korean and Japanese rigs rock! ;)

    Competition is good, yes. Only it's entirely between Asian carmakers in my case. ;)

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaMember Posts: 12,726
    I read recently that Consumer Reports reported that the average 8 year old Toyota is as reliable (same number of repairs per 100 cars) as a three year old domestic car or a two year old VW! That puts it in kind of a striking way.

    I wonder where Hyundai would have stood on such a survey. Eight years ago is MY 1998, back before the resurgence of Hyundai, and before the introduction of the long haul warranty.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMMember Posts: 7,615
    but, having researched Kia and Hyundai for so long I can tell you that the Kia and Hyundai(yes, I know Hyundai's reliability reports exceed Kia's by a good tad)one buys in 2006 will be built with more attention to detail and outlast a 1997 or 1998 Kia or Hyundai.

    That being said I do see a lot of Korean cars around (including shiploads of the first Kia Sephia's...the 1995 era one)on the streets, indeed. And no, I don't mean dead on the sides of the streets. Actually, I like the original Kia Sephia bodystyle almost as much as my '99's bodystyle.

    Until Scion's came along and the recent Yaris 5-door hatch I couldn't take a very long gander at the Honda and Toyota small rig offerings, either.

    Scion has changed everything and now an xA is on my possible futures list.

    Does Toyota fear Hyundai? I think they have a healthy respect for them, but not an outright fear. Wait a few more years, though, and we'll see about that one.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaMember Posts: 12,726
    at least that's what a recent article on them in Automotive News was titled. They are not happy that their initial quality has plateaued the last couple of years while everyone else has continued to catch up.

    I like the sound of that merely because the alternative to the "fear" is complacency, and no automaker offering vehicles in the NA market can ever afford to be complacent again, EVER.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    One of the reasons I considered a Hyundai was my neighbor's experience with his 1999 Elantra. Other than the replacement of the rubber timing belt (twice), 2 sets of brakes, a wiper motor (replaced under warranty), tires, and normal oil, filter, etc. changes, that's all he's replaced in over 155,000 miles! He's never been stranded by the car, and although he sticks to the major maintenance schedule, he's certainly not one who takes above average care of his vehicles.

    Of course, this is only one statistical sampling, but it's certainly one worth considering. He told me that he actually had more problems (generally, electrical in nature), and higher repair costs, with his earlier Toyota Corolla which he replaced with the Elantra.

    I've had two long-term experiences with SAAB cars, generally accepted as one of the most unreliable marques, with extremely poor resale values. Each were '80s vintage Classic 900's purchased new, and I've had excellent experience with both. This, of course, contradicts the statistics. Both are still daily drivers - one with 150K+, and the other with over 210K. The only mechanical replacements other than normal wear and tear items include: clutch, starter, water pump, and alternator. Neither cylinder head has ever been off for valve or timing chain replacement.

    Regular preventive maintenance plays an extremely important part of a vehicle's reliability. And, regular preventive maintenance as per the book costs money. Historically speaking - and, I present this supposition or theory with all due respect - Hyundai products "at times" were purchased by people without the greatest amount of disposable income. Could lack of normal preventive maintenance be part of the reason why Hyundai's haven't had the best long-term reliability track record? Again, this is only a theory, and I certainly don't wish to offend anyone.

    Frankly, I think most cars today are very well engineered and built compared to those of 20 to 30 years ago. Given proper care and preventive maintenance, most should go over 150K without serious problems.

    Toyota may not fear Hyundai, but I'm sure it's beginning to respect the company. Toyota will not stand still, as shown by their history in the marketplace. Hyundai obviously is not standing still either, and each new model or generation is a significant improvement over its predecessor.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    Regular preventive maintenance plays an extremely important part of a vehicle's reliability.

    It certainly helps, as do proper storage (garaging your car) and driving habits, but none of these will overcome poor engineering, sloppy assembly, or poor quality parts. Proper maintenance will provide the best results possible, but it won't make a bad car good.

    I present this supposition or theory with all due respect - Hyundai products "at times" were purchased by people without the greatest amount of disposable income. Could lack of normal preventive maintenance be part of the reason why Hyundai's haven't had the best long-term reliability track record?

    I seriously doubt that the demographic profile of the buyers of those mid-eighties Hyundai Excels that died quick deaths was substantially different from those having much better luck with their Tercels, Civics and Sentras. Those are the cars that the Hyundais of that time had to compete with, and the Hyundais clearly lost the reliability race.

    Saabs are typical of European cars -- generally very good engineering, but the QC can vary greatly, which leads to a mix of great and poor cars, often coming from the same line. European QC methods are based upon the traditional Ford method (build the entire car, then inspect and repair for defects), rather than the Toyota TQM method (check for quality throughout the process, and stop the line as necessary to catch problems throughout assembly), which means that the Europeans are highly dependent on good QC, and will suffer on a bad day when the bad stuff gets through.

    Add to this that Saab often had issues with supplier quality, so the end result could produce a well-designed, well-built car with subassemblies and parts that might or might not work. Accordingly, some buyers would end up with great cars that simply require good maintenance, while others would get rolling boxes of headaches.

    In comparison, the early Hyundais were bad in virtually every way, so I doubt that even the most diligent owner could have done much about it. Increasing the number of oil changes isn't going to prevent your electrical system from failing or stop a head gasket from blowing at 30,000 miles.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    One thing the current generation Elantra does not have is sloppy assembly. This may have been a problem with Hyundai in the past, but I don't believe you can make this argument today. I've scrutinized - using just the human eye mind you - from stem to stern (inside, outside, engine compartment, and underneath) a new Corolla, the previous generation Civic, and the current generation Elantra, and the Elantra's assembly quality is equal to either of the previous mentioned vehicles. I know, I was flabbergasted too, but visual evidence doesn't lie. In fact, the new 2005 Civics I inspected had consistent problems with some panel and seam alignments.

    Could the argument be made regarding USA assembly vs. Asian assembly? I have no way of knowing, but I compared the aforementioned cars several times, over a period of 6 months. I'm not implying the Elantra is superior to the Civic or Corolla, but just that the visual assembly quality was excellent. Now, as to items I couldn't see (internal engine assembly, etc.) that could be a different matter, but I sincerely doubt it.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,285
    It's easy to get a Chrysler dealership in Tokyo.. :P
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Other than the replacement of the rubber timing belt (twice)

    That is routine maintenance, I don't think that gets counted against it. Every Japanese care I have owned needed that, adn they usually do the waterpump at the same time, making for a relatively pricey service.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,285
    I'm glad to see that Toyota has noticed Hyundai, because they should. IMO, Hyundais are up to GM quality now, and will surpass that shortly. I'd hate to think Toyota is a dense as Ford, GM & Chrysler were about Toyota the last 30 or so years. Toyota should fear Hyundai - and Hyundai should fear the Chinese next....
  • kman54kman54 Member Posts: 12
    Hyundais are up to GM quality? More like GM and other Domestic Manufacturers are still catching up and are finally doing away with the "planned obsolescence" tactics of the past now that American buyers are fed up with inferior products. GM and the others still have some improvements to go before they dare offer a 10yr. 100,000 mile warranty as the Asian market is offering at this time. When they do......I will consider them once again for my business. Until then, Hyundai rules the roost in my opinion.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMMember Posts: 7,615
    Toyota rules the roost (or will soon, just a mere technicality causes them to be behind GM right now) but that Hyundai and Kia will continue to be breathing down Toyota's neck for quite some time. Seeing Hyundai/Kia surpass Toyota would be quite an event, one that would call for a big 'ole party. :D

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    I just don't get why you're such a cheerleader for the Koreans. I don't have anything against them personally, but I'm not too pleased that the Asians in general are taking over the automotive industry. This industry used to be a trademark of America's manufacturing might, and now that the big 3 are reeling, I don't believe this is a good sign for America. If GM goes under, that will be a sign of bad things to come for this country.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMMember Posts: 7,615
    I don't like throwing my money into a swirling stream downhill, and that is how it was starting to feel with the Fords I was spending cash on.

    With Kia, I have found an importer who pays attention to detail (as does Toyota and Honda...duh!)but doesn't charge me an arm and a hammer for the rigs. Plus, I dig the Long-Haul Warranty and I've seen it protect me. Never has Kia been out very much pocket change when The Long-Haul went to work for me, either. Penny-anty stuff, the kind that does take Kia's initial quality scores down to a unrealistically low level. The Warranty will fix anything wrong with your Kia and in my situation the work was done quickly while I browsed the lot for other Kia's to gander upon.

    I'm serious-I saw a lot of nice body design in the Sephia that looked sweet and I thought I'd give them a try. I never said they were perfect cars but Kia is improving every year and I really think they're awfully close to Toyota now in what they offer in small rigs. Hope this explains my thoughts on Kia Motors clearly. ;)

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    Doesn't this trend of American companies being overshadowed by the world market bother you in any way? It scares the he11 out of me for what may lie ahead for my kids and grandkids. As much as I dislike GM's vehicles, I'm rooting for them to make a comeback in a big way, maybe not as much for their well being, but for the well being of this country. If GM goes under, then nothing in this country is safe.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMMember Posts: 7,615
    well, I brought this subject up at work to a co-worker and he just said "Don't worry."

    I asked "What, GM's so big that they'll just always be there? Maybe pared down a bit, but they'll always be around?"

    He just smiled and said "yeah, just don't worry about them."

    That was a very unsatisfying answer to me. It was one that left me feeling like, "don't we have a bit more to talk about here?"

    I mean, GM is hurting big-time right now.They lost what $10.8 B last year? Don't worry?

    bottgers, no I don't think it's a good thing to lose GM. Personally, I don't think the U.S. is gonna lose GM but I do think that they are really gonna have to chop the lard back and get down to producing cars that people like. Trouble is the UAW forces them to charge $2,300-odd dollars more per vehicle just to keep up with legacy costs. Then we're back to square one again. GM is in serious trouble.

    Also, import tariffs on the Asian makers aren't a serious enough amount to hurt them at all, per car imported. Could that change? I don't know if lawmakers want to wield that kind of stick if it affects the economy elsewhere negatively.

    So are U.S.airlines(in trouble)...I still don't know how half of them are staying in business. Watch for more bad news in 2006. I don't like it but it's reality. Yeah, I went to foreign rigs. But I like smaller rigs and the U.S. carmakers don't make very good small cars. I'm not gonna enjoy a huge pick-em-up truck or SUV or even an Impala..the new HHR is a good step in the right direction though, IMO. It just seems that I am doing what is right for me, and it is working out right, so I am going to stick with what's working, eh?

    He's right, don't worry...but it's gonna be a bumpy ride for U.S.carmakers for a while yet. Wait and watch what happens when Geely and Chery Chinese rigs go on sale here.

    I can hardly wait! :surprise:

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    ....is that all this Asian competition will wake up the big 3 before it burys them!
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMMember Posts: 7,615
    if they're not designing seriously in overdrive for 2006 market conditions right now then I don't know what they are thinking or how they think.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • nornenorne Member Posts: 136
    I don't understand how you can criticize others when you yourself chose to buy a mazda mpv for your minivan needs. If you are so concerned about american companies and jobs, why didn't you buy any of the domestic minivans?
  • dripgossdripgoss Member Posts: 7
    What do you consider "American Cars" anyway? Cars that use 100% American parts? 100% American assembly? 100% American sales, advertising?

    Seriously, this ain't the 1950's bottgers and you need to recalibrate your expectation of what exactly an "American Car Maker" constitutes these days. I mean, some Hyundai's being assembled in Ohio? Some Ford's using Volvo chasis?

    But forget about that for a second - competition is good for the consumer. The big 3 are still playing to our fears of not being patriotic enough when we consider Euro and Asian cars. They want you to feel guilty for buying Nissan or Hyundai. I'm watching a comercial right now that says "See why more American's choose Chevy..." If I were Toyota, I'd start an ad campaign like "Baseball, Apple Pie and now Toyota. Being American can also mean getting a reliable car. TM"

    Here's an interesting quote I found the other day. It's Jim Cramer's take on Toyota:

    "It only sells at 14 times earnings. That means Toyota Motor is going to 110. ... Toyota will hire more people in America than any other country in the world in the next two years."

    Obviously, you should believe what you will. And I fly my stars and bars as proudly as the next free born, red blooded American. I'm just saying this is a new world and it seems that everyone's jumping on board but select consumers who let their fear of the future and guilt steer their buying decisions. If you were to say "I really love the new Mustang or Charger designs and I could care less about the reliability, safety..." that's one thing. But to base your buying decisions on what'll happen to our kids' future, that's crazy talk...
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    ....and it's because I feel these vehicles were better chioces for me than anything the domestics had available at the time. Just because I want the big 3 to be successful doesn't mean I will buy their vehicles no matter what. When I say I want them to succeed, I mean I want them to do so by producing superior products, or at least products that are comparible to that of the competition. I wouldn't expect anyone to buy inferior products just to support a particular company. I'm rooting for the big 3 to succeed as a symbol of American strength. For them to go under would be a sign of weakness. While I may be buying Asian vehicles, I'm not happy about the fact that they are building the most reliable vehicles in the world. I'm still rooting for the American companies to deliver.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 13,994
    Obviously, you should believe what you will. And I fly my stars and bars as proudly as the next free born, red blooded American. I'm just saying this is a new world and it seems that everyone's jumping on board but select consumers who let their fear of the future and guilt steer their buying decisions. If you were to say "I really love the new Mustang or Charger designs and I could care less about the reliability, safety..." that's one thing. But to base your buying decisions on what'll happen to our kids' future, that's crazy talk...

    So your saying that if we all had that mentality and baught only the cheapest products from China, India, it would have no affect on future generations ?

    I think you fail to remember that manufactoring still acounts for about 26% of the jobs in this country. If we lose all of that sector, what is going to replace those jobs ? ;)

    Rocky
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,285
    You're giving the Hyundai too much credit for that 100,000 warranty. It was not initially offered because the cars were so good, they could afford it. It was a pure marketing idea by the same guy who is now trying to turn around Mitsubishi. Hyundai had a reputation for disposable cars in America, deserved or not. This guy, who's name escapes me, was hired to change their reputation. They made good cars, but nobody knew it. Putting the best warranty behind it made people try them, and they worked. The reputation soon turned around.

    And yes, I truly believe the Hyundais and Kias are comparable to GM quality. They run well, they run long, but they're kinda heavy, and don't get the best mileage, nor do they have the newest technology either. That's GM, and that's Hyundai of today, IMO.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaMember Posts: 12,726
    on the '06 Sonata, to twice the level of the Camry, even as retail Sonatas take much longer than average for their segment to turn:

    http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060327/SUB/60324026/1078/ne- wsletter02&refsect=newsletter02

    I haven't followed Hyundai's sales very closely, beyond hearing the same headlines as everyone rearding the "meteoric" rise in sales for Hyun/Kia these last few years. I wonder if that has been on the back of rapidly increasing fleet sales. Every time I have rented these last couple of years, I have had a Hyundai among my choices, although I have never actually had one as a rental.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Um bud? I think you read my post wrong. I am not a Hyundai basher or loyalist. Replace the Azera and Sonata with CRV or C230 and then check your conclusion ;)

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109753#2

    My dislike is towards these new "Chinese Chopped Motorworks" wrecks that we are supposedly getting in the next couple of years.
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