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Toyota Fearing Hyundai?
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Comments
Rocky
Hyundai just recently started testing well on initial quality. It's just my educated guess that superb initial quality right now usually equates to good/fair long term reliability.
Hyundai/Mitsubishi made poorly engineered vehicles in the past (hyundai excel/mitsu precis). Now Hyundai is designing a supposedly super-reliable i4 "world engine" for Mitsubishi/Daimler Chrysler. But ofcourse that means nothing to those of us living in the past.
Remember plasma TV's just a few very short years ago.? ... JD Powers gave them a big hoot and holler as far as "initial quality" when they first came out .... as we speak, they're not lasting 3,000/5,000 hours depending on the size, but people buy those everyday ....
Lexus and the rest have earned their quality marks over a long period of time and there is thousands of them running around with 150k+ .... Hyundai is still in Junior High and we'll see if it meets the same grade and makes it to High School ....
Terry.
hyundai and toyota have the most stocks in their main suppliers, like hyundai mobis and asisn (i think), so in theory they cant take control of their suppliers and stop selling to competitors.
toyota can do the same for delphi...
hyundai and toyota have the most stocks in their main suppliers, like hyundai mobis and asisn (i think), so in theory they cant take control of their suppliers and stop selling to competitors.
toyota can do the same for delphi... Toyota depends on Delphi for alot of parts and would be shut down for awhile if Delphi closed it's doors.
Rocky
If Gelly is any indication of what to expect from the Chinese, Hyundai might as well be ranked on the same level as Lexus. Those things are atrocious...
Coming soon to an area near you:
Geely Chopshop Motorworks
Rocky
Toyota has proved they belong in the big leagues.
Things move faster nowadays. If Hyundai/Kia keeps their fast growth with quality and a warranty to back it up they could be a real volume player in 5-7 years.
I remember (waaay back) when one of my buddies used to sell Honda and Kawasaki motorcycles out of his garage - new.!
I was standing on his front porch when he got the letter from Honda when they said they would "give" him a car dealership -- and pay for it.! .. dirt, building, parts *and* the inventory, the whole deal .. the whole Coma se' Yama and the bag of chips, of course there were only 20 in the country at that time ..... well, them days are over ..l.o.l... now it takes $5 mill just to get rollin' .................... we'll see ..
Terry
Rocky
Are there any franchises right now that you would term a 'good deal'?
I don't mean a steal, like a Honda franchise in 1969, just a good deal.
A lot of it has to do with the location, what part of the country, size and dimensions (minimum 3, 4 acres) all of the city/county building permits and approvals (which is always a blast) then stuff like OSHA, slope of the property, drainage requirements, the cost of display signs (which is $50,000++) and then hope you picked the right quality builder for the standing building *and hope* it all pans out in a timely fashion (and the word here is timely - 140/180 days out, and you could be suckin' an exhaust pipe) ....
Then, all you gotta do is fill the interior up with service lifts, a parts department (and the parts for that "parts department") computers, furniture, carpets, tile, showroom glass, electrical, air conditioning, heaters, plumbing etc, etc, etc ...... and when that's all done, just bring in the people ... and that becomes a whole long drawn out deal I won't get into ..l.o.l...
The advantage the Hyun/Kia dealers have today is .. they can combine franchises into one showroom, they're not restricted (yet) to CSI and they don't have to upgrade their service departments (yet) ..... that said, once the hammer comes down from the manufacturer in (pick a number) 2,3 or 4 years .. or the other franchise holds court (which they will) then their prices will go waaaay up ... so this will be interesting.
To answer your question ... on the right day, with the right alignment of Mars and Jupiter and you haven't missed a Sunday at church and you know people in high places, then you're looking at $2 mill just to get the doors open on the "first day" ....... the question is, what do you do on the second day...?
Terry
I guess some of you folks aren't old enough to remember that most of the original Japanese cars that initially hit these shores were "blatant ripoffs" of previous American and European designs, especially much of the mechanical bits and pieces. And, their quaility was nothing to write home about either.
I refrain from posting comments on the quality or reliability of a Buick, for example, on Edmunds.com, as I've never owned one. Others here should show the same restraint if they've never owned a Hyundai.
Aaaaah, the magic word: "some" ..... that leaves a bunch yet to go ... and depending on their dealer agreement, they can be 5 years out ...
Terry.
Actually helped my preacher friend negotiate a manufacturer buy-back on two separate vehicles before I landed him in a Ford Taurus that he has driven for ten years without a problem. (He is the forgiving sort and was ready to give them a THIRD chance.)
I know the mantra that is coming "but they have a 10 year 100,000 warranty." To which my response is ... "because they need it."
I'm sorry, but that's a poor argument. There is plenty of data available about vehicle reliability, which is certainly more valuable that just one person's experience, either way. A survey such as one from JD Power, which gets data from thousands of owners, is going to provide useful information that would be foolish to ignore.
Hyundai has done well with initial quality scores, and has certainly made strides to improve, but whether that translates into long-term durability remains to be seen. It will take several years to see whether it proves to be a strong contender or not (although the way things are going, I suspect that they will be a very serious player soon enough.)
Inital Quality: Hyundai Initial Quality Exceeded Toyota Brand by 3 points in 2004 and tied Honda
Long-Term Durability: Hyundai's long term durability exceeded Nissan, GM and SUBURU?......hmmmmmm
Brand Loyalty: The Hyundai brand is above average in brand loyalty among imports.
Warranty Repairs for 2005: Hyundai reported savings of nearly $50 million! this year on warranty repairs due to overestimation.
What it Means: Hyundai's are actually performing more reliably than THEY even projected.
Now tell me, what other manufacturer who sells THREE QUARTERS OF A MILLION CARS IN NORTH AMERICA is providing the consumer with:
5 year 60,000 miles bumper to bumper
10 year 100,000 powertrain
5 year unlimited roadside
.....and is not spending what they projected to tow, repair them, repair them long-term?
That's right, noone because only Honda, Toyota and Nissan build more cars as imports and the big three with the exception of Ford won't touch that warranty due to reliability issues.
I realize its a marketeing ploy to get Hyundai on the radar but Hyundai has to deliver and over the last 4 years they are delivering and more quickly than any other automaker in history!!!!
The point is that the track record is not very long, and it remains to be seen whether an eight year old Hyundai is comparable to an eight year old Toyota. Personally, I think that the next generation of Hyundais are going to go a long way toward improving perceptions and probably will end up going the distance, but you won't know either way until several years have passed.
Are you talking about the same Ford Motor Company that I am? Ford was the company I bought my last three vehicles from (counting Mercury, yes)before switching over to Kia.
To be fair, they weren't raving rattlebuckets, but the '94 Escort wagon did produce an exhaust manifold leak that needed warranty work(thank goodness my weak Ford warranty covered me on that one)and the first one(a 1996 Mercury Lynx station wagon)actually caught fire in the steering column.
That was a first, one of my rigs actually catching fire. Turns out it was a manufacturer defect, a faulty wire design in the steering column-apparently a wire run was installed too closely to the ignition switch and could catch fire. That was before the recall that came later so Ford did not respond with reimbursement when my Lynx caought fire. Car insurance did cover about 75% of the cost of repairs for this incident but I was required to pay the cost of the parts of the car that started the fire(an insurance ruling). Ended up being $475 or something like that. Plus my Lynx was in the Ford dealer for about 2 weeks!
I remember crap like that and show my disenchantentment by not buying any more Ford products. The last Ford product I bought was in 1997, a used Escort with 18,000 miles on it. To be fair, I didn't have an issue with this one except a shopping cart hitting it in the side. That was simply a stiff northwest wind up in Burlington, Washington, blowing a cart at us at about 20 mph. These girls walking into the grocery store had the audacity to actually laugh at the incident. Can you believe that? Traded that Ford in (dent and all)to Jerry Smith Chev-Buick-Kia in Anacortes, WA in 1999 for my beloved '99 Kia Sephia and the rest is written down in cyber-history for all to know and enjoy to the full.
South Korean and Japanese rigs rock!
Competition is good, yes. Only it's entirely between Asian carmakers in my case.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I wonder where Hyundai would have stood on such a survey. Eight years ago is MY 1998, back before the resurgence of Hyundai, and before the introduction of the long haul warranty.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That being said I do see a lot of Korean cars around (including shiploads of the first Kia Sephia's...the 1995 era one)on the streets, indeed. And no, I don't mean dead on the sides of the streets. Actually, I like the original Kia Sephia bodystyle almost as much as my '99's bodystyle.
Until Scion's came along and the recent Yaris 5-door hatch I couldn't take a very long gander at the Honda and Toyota small rig offerings, either.
Scion has changed everything and now an xA is on my possible futures list.
Does Toyota fear Hyundai? I think they have a healthy respect for them, but not an outright fear. Wait a few more years, though, and we'll see about that one.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I like the sound of that merely because the alternative to the "fear" is complacency, and no automaker offering vehicles in the NA market can ever afford to be complacent again, EVER.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Of course, this is only one statistical sampling, but it's certainly one worth considering. He told me that he actually had more problems (generally, electrical in nature), and higher repair costs, with his earlier Toyota Corolla which he replaced with the Elantra.
I've had two long-term experiences with SAAB cars, generally accepted as one of the most unreliable marques, with extremely poor resale values. Each were '80s vintage Classic 900's purchased new, and I've had excellent experience with both. This, of course, contradicts the statistics. Both are still daily drivers - one with 150K+, and the other with over 210K. The only mechanical replacements other than normal wear and tear items include: clutch, starter, water pump, and alternator. Neither cylinder head has ever been off for valve or timing chain replacement.
Regular preventive maintenance plays an extremely important part of a vehicle's reliability. And, regular preventive maintenance as per the book costs money. Historically speaking - and, I present this supposition or theory with all due respect - Hyundai products "at times" were purchased by people without the greatest amount of disposable income. Could lack of normal preventive maintenance be part of the reason why Hyundai's haven't had the best long-term reliability track record? Again, this is only a theory, and I certainly don't wish to offend anyone.
Frankly, I think most cars today are very well engineered and built compared to those of 20 to 30 years ago. Given proper care and preventive maintenance, most should go over 150K without serious problems.
Toyota may not fear Hyundai, but I'm sure it's beginning to respect the company. Toyota will not stand still, as shown by their history in the marketplace. Hyundai obviously is not standing still either, and each new model or generation is a significant improvement over its predecessor.
It certainly helps, as do proper storage (garaging your car) and driving habits, but none of these will overcome poor engineering, sloppy assembly, or poor quality parts. Proper maintenance will provide the best results possible, but it won't make a bad car good.
I present this supposition or theory with all due respect - Hyundai products "at times" were purchased by people without the greatest amount of disposable income. Could lack of normal preventive maintenance be part of the reason why Hyundai's haven't had the best long-term reliability track record?
I seriously doubt that the demographic profile of the buyers of those mid-eighties Hyundai Excels that died quick deaths was substantially different from those having much better luck with their Tercels, Civics and Sentras. Those are the cars that the Hyundais of that time had to compete with, and the Hyundais clearly lost the reliability race.
Saabs are typical of European cars -- generally very good engineering, but the QC can vary greatly, which leads to a mix of great and poor cars, often coming from the same line. European QC methods are based upon the traditional Ford method (build the entire car, then inspect and repair for defects), rather than the Toyota TQM method (check for quality throughout the process, and stop the line as necessary to catch problems throughout assembly), which means that the Europeans are highly dependent on good QC, and will suffer on a bad day when the bad stuff gets through.
Add to this that Saab often had issues with supplier quality, so the end result could produce a well-designed, well-built car with subassemblies and parts that might or might not work. Accordingly, some buyers would end up with great cars that simply require good maintenance, while others would get rolling boxes of headaches.
In comparison, the early Hyundais were bad in virtually every way, so I doubt that even the most diligent owner could have done much about it. Increasing the number of oil changes isn't going to prevent your electrical system from failing or stop a head gasket from blowing at 30,000 miles.
Could the argument be made regarding USA assembly vs. Asian assembly? I have no way of knowing, but I compared the aforementioned cars several times, over a period of 6 months. I'm not implying the Elantra is superior to the Civic or Corolla, but just that the visual assembly quality was excellent. Now, as to items I couldn't see (internal engine assembly, etc.) that could be a different matter, but I sincerely doubt it.
That is routine maintenance, I don't think that gets counted against it. Every Japanese care I have owned needed that, adn they usually do the waterpump at the same time, making for a relatively pricey service.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
With Kia, I have found an importer who pays attention to detail (as does Toyota and Honda...duh!)but doesn't charge me an arm and a hammer for the rigs. Plus, I dig the Long-Haul Warranty and I've seen it protect me. Never has Kia been out very much pocket change when The Long-Haul went to work for me, either. Penny-anty stuff, the kind that does take Kia's initial quality scores down to a unrealistically low level. The Warranty will fix anything wrong with your Kia and in my situation the work was done quickly while I browsed the lot for other Kia's to gander upon.
I'm serious-I saw a lot of nice body design in the Sephia that looked sweet and I thought I'd give them a try. I never said they were perfect cars but Kia is improving every year and I really think they're awfully close to Toyota now in what they offer in small rigs. Hope this explains my thoughts on Kia Motors clearly.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I asked "What, GM's so big that they'll just always be there? Maybe pared down a bit, but they'll always be around?"
He just smiled and said "yeah, just don't worry about them."
That was a very unsatisfying answer to me. It was one that left me feeling like, "don't we have a bit more to talk about here?"
I mean, GM is hurting big-time right now.They lost what $10.8 B last year? Don't worry?
bottgers, no I don't think it's a good thing to lose GM. Personally, I don't think the U.S. is gonna lose GM but I do think that they are really gonna have to chop the lard back and get down to producing cars that people like. Trouble is the UAW forces them to charge $2,300-odd dollars more per vehicle just to keep up with legacy costs. Then we're back to square one again. GM is in serious trouble.
Also, import tariffs on the Asian makers aren't a serious enough amount to hurt them at all, per car imported. Could that change? I don't know if lawmakers want to wield that kind of stick if it affects the economy elsewhere negatively.
So are U.S.airlines(in trouble)...I still don't know how half of them are staying in business. Watch for more bad news in 2006. I don't like it but it's reality. Yeah, I went to foreign rigs. But I like smaller rigs and the U.S. carmakers don't make very good small cars. I'm not gonna enjoy a huge pick-em-up truck or SUV or even an Impala..the new HHR is a good step in the right direction though, IMO. It just seems that I am doing what is right for me, and it is working out right, so I am going to stick with what's working, eh?
He's right, don't worry...but it's gonna be a bumpy ride for U.S.carmakers for a while yet. Wait and watch what happens when Geely and Chery Chinese rigs go on sale here.
I can hardly wait! :surprise:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Seriously, this ain't the 1950's bottgers and you need to recalibrate your expectation of what exactly an "American Car Maker" constitutes these days. I mean, some Hyundai's being assembled in Ohio? Some Ford's using Volvo chasis?
But forget about that for a second - competition is good for the consumer. The big 3 are still playing to our fears of not being patriotic enough when we consider Euro and Asian cars. They want you to feel guilty for buying Nissan or Hyundai. I'm watching a comercial right now that says "See why more American's choose Chevy..." If I were Toyota, I'd start an ad campaign like "Baseball, Apple Pie and now Toyota. Being American can also mean getting a reliable car. TM"
Here's an interesting quote I found the other day. It's Jim Cramer's take on Toyota:
"It only sells at 14 times earnings. That means Toyota Motor is going to 110. ... Toyota will hire more people in America than any other country in the world in the next two years."
Obviously, you should believe what you will. And I fly my stars and bars as proudly as the next free born, red blooded American. I'm just saying this is a new world and it seems that everyone's jumping on board but select consumers who let their fear of the future and guilt steer their buying decisions. If you were to say "I really love the new Mustang or Charger designs and I could care less about the reliability, safety..." that's one thing. But to base your buying decisions on what'll happen to our kids' future, that's crazy talk...
So your saying that if we all had that mentality and baught only the cheapest products from China, India, it would have no affect on future generations ?
I think you fail to remember that manufactoring still acounts for about 26% of the jobs in this country. If we lose all of that sector, what is going to replace those jobs ?
Rocky
And yes, I truly believe the Hyundais and Kias are comparable to GM quality. They run well, they run long, but they're kinda heavy, and don't get the best mileage, nor do they have the newest technology either. That's GM, and that's Hyundai of today, IMO.
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060327/SUB/60324026/1078/ne- wsletter02&refsect=newsletter02
I haven't followed Hyundai's sales very closely, beyond hearing the same headlines as everyone rearding the "meteoric" rise in sales for Hyun/Kia these last few years. I wonder if that has been on the back of rapidly increasing fleet sales. Every time I have rented these last couple of years, I have had a Hyundai among my choices, although I have never actually had one as a rental.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109753#2
My dislike is towards these new "Chinese Chopped Motorworks" wrecks that we are supposedly getting in the next couple of years.