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Your blatant copy phrase has no substance. May I ask how you came to this conclusion? I am looking at a Sonata right now, from the front headlights to the dual exhaust tip, I don't see how you can claim a "blatant copy".
-Loren
The moves by the unit of Toyota Motor Corp. (Research) came after a female employee, Sayaka Kobayashi, filed a $190 million lawsuit at the beginning of May, alleging that Hideaki Otaka, then chief executive of Toyota Motor North America, had sexually harassed her and that executives had failed to act on her complaints.
According to a statement from the law firm representing the employee, Otaka said he was leaving his post as chief executive on the day he was served with a copy of the lawsuit against him.
Toyota Motor North America said Monday that Yuki Funo, chairman and chief executive of Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., had been named chairman and chief executive of Toyota Motor North America.
Jim Press, president and chief operating officer of Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., was named president of Toyota Motor North America, the first American named to that position.
The company has also put in place a task force, headed by former Labor Secretary Alexis Herman, to review Toyota's policies for dealing with harassment and discrimination.
Herman currently heads the diversity advisory board for Toyota's U.S. affiliates.
The company said it would provide executives with a training program to help them better recognize and handle inappropriate behavior.
Any accusations of inappropriate behavior involving a chairman, chief executive or president would result in a report directly to that executive's board of directors, the company said.
link title
Perhaps Toyota is now the big target. The lawyers, Jessie, and oh my, what next.
Interesting that they have this "diversity advisory board for Toyota's U.S. affiliates." Now what happens in this room?
Well the topic is Toyota fearing the Hyundai. If all goes well, as in no major recalls for the new cars, like the Sonata, I would say every car manufacturer, except the higher priced German makes, should fear this company. Good value, safety, reliability, and warranty. So far, what's not to like?
-Loren
I would say that even the higher priced German makes are keeping an eye on them. Hey the Japanese makes came out with their luxury brand, who knows what the next 5 or 10 years will bring.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Published: May 17, 2006
SEOUL, South Korea, May 16 — The chairman of the Hyundai Motor Company, South Korea's largest carmaker and a symbol of the nation's economic rise, was charged Tuesday with embezzling more than $100 million and causing far larger financial damage to companies under his control.
The chairman, Chung Mong Koo, 68, was charged with misappropriating 130 billion won ($136 million) to set up a slush fund that was apparently used to buy political influence, Chae Dong Wook, a senior prosecutor at the Supreme Prosecutors' Office, told reporters. He said Mr. Chung was also charged with breach of trust, accused of causing more than 400 billion won ($429 million) in damages to companies in the Hyundai group.
The charges have drawn renewed attention to the economic power and political influence of South Korea's mighty industrial groups, or chaebol. Prosecutors cast the arrest as proof of their intention to crack down on the groups, which dominate South Korea's economy.
But many also worry that the arrest and a separate investigation earlier this year into the largest industrial group, Samsung, which includes Samsung Electronics, could hobble South Korea's top companies at a time when the nation is on the threshold of joining the world's wealthiest economies.
A company official said Hyundai could "neither deny nor admit the charges" during the investigation. But the spokesman, Oles Gadacz, said Mr. Chung would probably fight the charges in court, raising the possibility of a drawn-out legal battle.
Mr. Chung is credited with building Hyundai into the world's seventh-largest automaker and raising its image by emphasizing quality. He is known as a charismatic chief who held firm personal control over decision-making in the Hyundai group, which also includes Kia Motors.
Mr. Gadacz said Mr. Chung's detention since his April 28 arrest had created a leadership vacuum at a time when the company was trying to join the top tier of global car companies.
>>>...**Good value, safety, reliability, and warranty. So far, what's not to like?..**
We'd like to see a proven reliability factor for starters ... that sure would nice ....
Terry
Look at Hyundai's 5 year reliability record. It's top notch.
Having been involved in quality "turnarounds", I know how to read the signs. It's obvious to me that Hyundai is pulling out all the stops to build a quality product and build customer satisfaction. If you can't read the signs, you're missing out on a great product at a great price in the 06 Sonata.
Regarding the behavior of the Hyundai Motors President and his being busted in South Korea, the behavior can't be condoned, but it is really the way these people are accustomed to doing business.
To butt our heads into it would be like looking at Russia and wondering why they can't seem to put controls on the Russian Mafia.
Eh? :surprise:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
http://www.cartest.ca/2005_most_reliable_vehicles.htm#top_vehicles_by_category__- - - 2002_model
Malibu, Alero, Sonata; top 3.(if I recall correctly).
To see top 3 in each catagory, you got to find the link for top vehicles in each class link.
TCNO
(Take Care/Not Offense)
Hyundai and Toyota both have cars in this survey.
TCNO
http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/roadtest,view,.spy?artid=62106
Look at Hyundai's 5 year reliability record. It's top notch....**
=====================
What makes or breaks a vehicle is "long" term reliability .... not a good 30/90 or a 180 day track record.
Has Hyun/Kia improved since 96/98/2000..? .. yes they have, anything is an improvement .... because up until that point they didn't build a good vehicle, they built a poor quality vehicle - "at best" ....
New colors, new designs and a new "thinking" will get them to the table, but will they be able to stay for dinner.?? .... now they need to have some vehicles that on average (across the board) will play the long ball game ... that means, building vehicles that will have *proven reliability* at 80k/120k/150k+ .. that's what will put them in the finals ...
Top notch...??
They still have the biggest buy-back rate in the industry through their dealer network .. they still have the biggest failure problems via the rental car companies .. they still have the largest MBB (Manufacturers Buy Back) rate at the auctions and they still have the worst resale value .....
My friend, you read a few articles and talk with Uncle Buck at the barber shop .... I see them everyday.
Terry
Or better yet, talk to the mechanics that have to work on the vehicles.
Their take is:
Hyundai - "They are not there yet."
Kia - "Don't bring it in here." or "Jlawrence, you got the money ... buy a real car."
You buy what you want and go ahead and fib to as many people as you want about Hyundai's and Kia's, but I know the real story on them because I have bought and enjoyed two Kia's in a row after owning several mediocre and bland Ford's. Kia falls into the category of well-built foreign vehicle in my book, only they take care of you with a generous Long-Haul Warranty, that Warranty not costing you a dime more, either.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Or do you have a relationship with Kia Motors that you would like to disclose?
Personally, I believe that keeping ANY tire on a passenger 100k miles is irresponsible and "penny wise, pound foolish." Sure you will have tread. However, if you look at some of the tire failures that have caused fatality accidents on the NTSB website, you will see plenty of failed tires with 50% of their tread left.
IMO, two cars does not a "real story" make. Particularly if you're speaking to Terry, who has seen THOUSANDS of Kias. I'd take his word as the real story.
I just replaced it's OEM Hankook tires out at 102,000 miles
I think this is telling. For you to have tread left on any tire at 102,000 miles, you HAVE to drive like someone in their 80s. If you're that gentle on your cars, and presumably take good care of them, even a Trabant would give you the same service you've achieved from your Kias.
Of course you are entiled to an opinion. Just don't try to pass it off as fact.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Was the Toyota exec terminated or brought back and hid in Japan?
Something tells me he has a lot less to worry about than his counterpart in South Korea.
I rely on them to tell me what they are seeing - because they are getting 30-50 vehicles a day into their shop.
For example,
Toyota Camry - solid, predictable, rarely a problem
Chevy Impala - solid car, but get the brakes in early as neglect will cost you big $$$
Nissan Altima - let them work out some of the problems with the newer models - go Toyota first.
Chryslers - great until 70k watch out for rlectrical systems after that.
Some of them are the same people who led me away from 1996 Taurus a year before the press picked it up.
These guys get paid for repairing cars. They don't shill models, they are blunt. And most of the time, they are right. (Like, Why in the **** are you buying a SAAB?)
When I buy ANY product, MY FAVORITE SOURCE of information is the repairman. When teh front load washers first came out, a couple of my friends with one of the large manufacturers were telling me how great they were over the "old style.
Appliance repairmen thought they were great - one guy said that his business doubled for the first 18 months as some of the components were not very good and to avoid them. (Reminded me of my transmission guy in Cleveland. We were out driving around and he points out his new 5BR house and says "Thank God for Bill Ford. Without the Taurus/ Windstar transmissions, I would still be living in the old bungalow."
Like I say, buy what you like and say what you want, but my Kia's have given me solid, good car serivce.
Has nobody paid attention to the latest quality reports from Hyundai and Kia? They're pretty good. Terry's reports are inflicted with a deep wound from his automotive past so they must be taken with a grain of sea-salt.
Oh, my tires were not dangerous to drive on. I have driven cars and trucks and SUV's for about 30 years now and I am very much used to what a dangerous tire is. My Sportage's tires were not dangerous to drive on I just replaced them. They passed the Lincoln penny test and they also passed the handling and driving test. Try getting that many miles on your Yukon or Envoy SUV's OEM tires. Not gonna happen, gentlemen.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
In all seriousness, it's hard to keep up with every change in the automotive industry. It's fully understandable that people are a little behind. Even mechanics.
Oh please, stop the nonsense and grow up ... you sound like one of daughters fighting for the last M&M in the candy jar ..l.o.l....
I've been in this business for 23 years, I talk cars with dealers from Boston to Riverside on a daily basis .. we travel together, we golf together, we go to our kids communions and graduations together -- and you talk with whom.? .. I know I know, you talk with your Sportage at 2:00am when nobody else will talk with you ..l.o.l..
Here's a news flash .... the topic isn't about "Iluv and his Kia" and it's certainly not about you - "at all" .. the topic is about "Toyota Fearing Hyundai" ... it's a discussion about the ~car business~ not about your personal feelings and begging for affirmation .. even though you try to make it that way every 7th post ...
Terry doesn't have any "deep wounds" for anything ..l.o.l.. but I DO know the difference between a good car and a bad one, especially since I'm in the business, not looking through foggy little portholes like yourself ...
I just spent 3 weeks in China, visited 5 different plants and I was all over the country and spoke with dozens upon dozens of representatives, and a bunch from Korea -- and where were you...? .... I know I know, bothering somebody at the local Starbucks trying to convince a Chevy owner how bad his car was (right before he spilled the coffee on your head ..l.o.l..) ...
Instead of you posting 3,000 times all about "Iluv and his little car" .. why don't you read some posts, find out who you're speaking with, see how long they've been on the boards and - get informed, cuz' your making a fool out of yourself - quit reading tea leaves, watching that 70's Show and get real.!
Jlawrence isn't in the car business but, he's forgot more about the car business than you could ever know if you started "today' ...
He buys and sells car for his business on a daily basis, he structures fleet deals, figure's cost and financing, handles warranty contracts and the disposal of huge volumes of vehicles and handles everything in-between from service to auction ....... and what do you do...?? (besides post 3,000 times about Iluv and his little car) .... I know I know - you sit at Starbucks and try to convince the guy driving the new Camry your 100k Sportage is the better car ...l.o.l...
This ain't about you and it's NOT about your car...
Terry.
2) Toyota fears that if they continue to take market share from the less efficient US automakers that there will be some political backlash from Americans. Hence, everywhere you go in Texas you see Toyota promoting the campus that they are building in San Antonio. That is why they are emphasizing domestic content.
3) Toyota fears that quality may drop with all the new plants coming on board and that unless careful, new plants will put out less perfect products.
4) Toyota fears that they don't have the grasp of the commercial fleet business that Ford and GM have. And these are not the "low margin" type sales that the fleet cars are.
I could probably go eight or ten more before Hyundai would show up on the radar screen.
Unlike most manufacturers, Toyota is playing offense right now.
Who cares about an industry? I have no plans to buy an industry or a business. I buy 1 car at a time. Regardless of what you do, that's the way 95% of Americans do it.
Most of us look at cars, research them, drive them, price them, then make the decision that we conclude is in our own best interest. You speak as though that's blasphemy, but that's the way we will continue to do it.
I have owned about 7 new cars, and owned each of them from 8-14 years. I have never been burned. I got excellent reliability amd re-sale on every one of them. Most times, I have acquaintances hounding me to sell them my cars before I am even ready to sell. It will be no different for my current car, a 06 Sonata. I just can't see all your dire and convoluted predictions happening to me.
It IS about the our cars. Not a bunch of cars, just 1 car. And Toyota IS worried about Hyundai. Top Toyota officials were directly quoted as saying so. Personally, I don't care. I only own 2 cars, and only 1 is a Toyota.
By the way, I am the owner of GM, Toyota, and Kelly Blue Book. It must be true, because you read it on the Internet.
There's nothing wrong with buying what you like. But that is different from the topic of this thread, which is whether Toyota has any reason to fear Hyundai.
That discussion will require a comparison of the quality of the vehicles produced by those manufacturers, as Americans place a high premium on reliabilty and build quality - two areas where Toyota (and Honda) have excelled, and where Hyundai's OVERALL history (not just the last five years) is checkered.
For that discussion, I want posts with more information than, "I love my Hyundai (or Kia, or whatever)."
Rroyce and Jlawrence, with their experience in buying and selling hundreds of cars, have more credibility than one or two happy owners.
If you are going to look at Hyundais OVERALL history then it would be fair to look at Toyotas OVERALL history. Don't you think? If you are going to say Toyotas are highly reliable (a reputation thats IMO is over rated) then its only fair to look at the reliability of the current crop of Hyundais.
Hyundais have come a long way since the 80's as did Toyota from when it first came over (I remember the you could almost watch a Toyota rust to death in a single Chicago winter). Toyota should be worried about Hyundai, as they should be worried about a few other things.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
So, taking the view that you suggest, Toyota's reputation hardly diminishes.
Plus, the REALLY bad Toyotas sold in very small numbers (late 1950s, early 1960s). They were so bad that Toyota withdrew from the U.S. market and regrouped.
Hyundai's problem was that it was TOO successful at first. The cars sold in large numbers, but they weren't ready for prime time.
As for the rust problems - in the 1970s and early 1980s, Toyotas competed with the small domestic cars (Vega, Chevette, Pinto, Gremlin, etc.), not Chevrolet Impalas and Oldsmobile Cutlass Supremes.
Toyotas rusted (and so did Hondas), and rusted faster than an Impala or a Cutlass Supreme. But the Vega and Gremlin were even WORSE. The Pinto and Chevette were better in this regard, but they lacked the Toyota's refinement.
(And before the inevitable point comes up - yes, it is unfair to bash GM in 2006 for the Vega or Chevette. The GM of 2006 is not the GM of 1976. It appears, however, to be too late for AMC.)
Hyundai's reliability ratings only started to improve around 2002. Most people's memories stretch back longer than 4-5 years.
As for Toyota's being "overrated" - I'll still take the opinions of rroyce and jlawrence, based on their extensive experience in the industry, over those who base their opinions on ownership of one or two vehicles.
Excuse me but I remember the early 70's and Toyota didn't have the best reputation back then. FWIW that had close to Hyundais reputation in the late 70's. They were pretty much referred to as rust buckets.
So, taking the view that you suggest, Toyota's reputation hardly diminishes.
I have one sister that only buys Toyota and two sisters that have had nothing but GM's. Over the last 30 years guess who has more issues my one sister with her Toyotas or my two sisters with their GM's? My two sisters Both married and their husbands drive GM's have all had fewer troubles than my one unmarried sister with all her toyotas.
Face it while they are good cars they are not the super reliable cars many people think they are. Plus other cars are not nearly as bad as others would have you believe.
Hyundai's reliability ratings only started to improve around 2002.
Than thats fantastic because I have a 2000, my wife has a 2001 as well as my daughter. My daughter is about to hit 100K with no problems, my wifes is close to 90K with no problems, my 2000 hit 131K before the first thing went wrong (almost 140k now with no other issues). I know a few others that have similar success with pre 2002 Hyundais, so I guess they are super reliable now.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I have been wondering about the fleet issue, as Toyota finishes the San Antonio plant - will Toyota get into big fleet sales to move trucks and go head to head with Ford and GM, or will it settle for a lesser portion of the segment in order to keep fleet sales down, as it does with the rest of its models? Even Camry, the fleet leader at Toyota, sells only 1 in 6 or less to fleets.
By contrast, Hyundai has jumped eagerly into the fleet business, with sales to fleets of the new Sonata running 30% or more apparently.
If Hyundai were to ramp up its fleet sales even more, would the consequential jump in volume be a threat to Toyota? I would think not, because its profit margins would be so thin. Toyota is chasing profits, not sales.
But Toyota may need goodly fleet sales of the new Tundra to be successful in these times of high gas prices.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Toyotas in the 1970s were very respected for their mechanicals, especially their engines.
If you doubt this, go ask Mr. Shiftright for his opinions. He was there, too, and had lots of experience with various makes of cars at that time. He's given his opinions of Toyotas from the 1970s many times on the Classic Cars thread, and they contradict yours.
Yes, they rusted, but, as I pointed out, so did most of their DIRECT competition, and some of the competing cars - Vega, Gremlin - were even WORSE in this regard.
snakeweasel: Face it while they are good cars they are not the super reliable cars many people think they are. Plus other cars are not nearly as bad as others would have you believe.
If you saying that all cars are improving, and it is increasingly unlikely a buyer will get a lemon, I agree with you.
ALL cars are getting better. It's no longer a case of "awful, mediocre and good." The choices are more like, "good, better and best."
If you are saying that the likelihood of buying a lemon Toyota is the same as buying a lemon anything else - I would disagree.
snakeweasel: Than thats fantastic because I have a 2000, my wife has a 2001 as well as my daughter. My daughter is about to hit 100K with no problems, my wifes is close to 90K with no problems, my 2000 hit 131K before the first thing went wrong (almost 140k now with no other issues). I know a few others that have similar success with pre 2002 Hyundais, so I guess they are super reliable now.
Five years does not a reputation make. Hyundai is IMPROVING, but that is different from saying that Hyundai is already there.
To further fan the fire - two weeks ago my wife's cousin visited. He has owned a repair shop in suburban Baltimore-D.C. for three decades now. He sees ALL makes of cars, although the suburban Baltimore-D.C. area is heavy on Japanese imports, so he should, by sheer numbers, see more Toyotas and Hondas than anything else.
His opinion of Toyota?
"The most reliable car out there."
A college buddy of my wife's had one of those, and if you're talking reliability by the "how many times did it leave me stranded" test, the Excel passed. It was actually better than my decade-newer Jetta at the time.
However, riding/driving that car was a masochistic activity, at best. The only car I've been in that I can say was worse was an ancient Fiat. With both cars, you swore they were going to come apart just going down the road.
go to the bottom half , has the AutoPacific results, etc...
Suzuki even won for the Grand Vitara.
This is a owner satisfction survey, basically, but if people are that happy with these vehicles, word gets around.....and may result in more sales,opinions changing?
I dunno.
"Mitsubishi Raider Wins AutoPacific 2006 Vehicle Satisfaction Award for Compact Pickups "
Huh? - I think I have maybe seen 1 one the road since their introduction.
take care/not offense.
Which I mentioned, and you handily ignored.
I repeat, Toyota officials admitted they were worried about Hyundai's aggressive and direct competition. Don't take my word for it, it's a matter of public record.
As for our friends Rroyce and Jlawrence, I respect their opinions as much as any other Internet forum poster. I'm sure their credentials are impeccable and their motives are above reproach. But they can't tell the future, can they? I haven't been wrong yet on car selection, so I hope you guys don't mind if I listen to myself on this one.