Toyota Fearing Hyundai?

iluvmysephia1

look at if you don't believe that Toyota fears Hyundai. You'll be set straight after reading it.

Interesting comment from Toyota when they mentioned to their parts makers to sell parts to as many other manufacturers as possible, just not to Nissan. Nissan is the number two Japanese automaker, right? Oh, yeah, things are getting rather competitive, aren't they?

The history of Japan and South Korea is rather, umm, colorful, too. Hyundai and their fans are no doubt relishing in their success of late and taking away business from any Japanese carmaker, especially Toyota, must just chill them and thrill them to their bones.

bobad

As I understand it, Toyota sends reps to the suppliers and "suggests" improvements to get better and cheaper parts. I think Toyota not only provides advisors, but even invests money in the supplier's companies. In return, Toyota expects a measure of loyalty. It's like buying a date an expensive dinner and theater ticket, and she goes home with someone else. :surprise: I think what's happening is the suppliers that grow large sometimes find that Toyota is no longer a large percentage of their business. They feel trapped by Toyta's smothering tactics, and start "seeing other people".

iluvmysephia1

was interesting to me. That is that Nissan is the number two Japanese car maker. Does that sound right to y'all?

In my view it was always Toyota was numero uno and Honda was number two. Apparently Carlos Ghosn has turned their ship firmly away from that nasty iceberg and things are looking rosy for Nissan. I'm not a huge fan of Japanese cars, though, so it's not hard to slip some spicey Japanese car news by me.

No, that makes good business sense to butter up your parts makers a bit with some delicious yen, but loyalty just to Toyota is stretching it a bit I think. Especially when Nissan will pay them a certain amount for the same part. It seems to me a lot healthier climate for the parts makers in Japan to be able to call thier own prices and remain independent. Fair market value for prices on parts to Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Suzuki and the rest of 'em.

socala4

That is that Nissan is the number two Japanese car maker. Does that sound right to y'all?

Depends what you mean. In the US, Honda leads Nissan, but globally, Nissan is affiliated with Renault, making it one of the world's largest automakers, while Honda has a much smaller market presence abroad. More so than Toyota or Nissan, Honda is much more dependent on US sales for much of its total business.

joe97

Most likely they are talking about ranking worldwide:

1 General Motors 8,381,805
2 Toyota Motor Corp. 8,120,000
3 Ford Motor Co. 6,208,700
4 Volkswagen AG 5,242,793
5 DaimlerChrysler AG 4,854,700
6 Hyundai-Kia Group 3,715,095
7 Nissan Motor Co. 3,597,748
8 PSA/Peugeot-Citroen SA 3,390,000
9 Honda Motor Co. 3,365,000
10 Renault SA 2,533,428

(as of 12/31/05)

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/06/08/010402.html

wolverinejoe80

stop spelling hyundai, hyundia. it's very annoying

wolverinejoe80

why would anybody compare azera to TL? it's apple and orange.

rockylee

I agree, but a few posters have tried to argue the point. I was saying Acura is a better value than Hyundai and that's when the TL vs. Azera value came up.

Rocky

snakeweasel

I have to disagree with you the TL is over priced (as is any car over $30K). Hence most under $30k cars are better values than cars over $30K.

rockylee

Okay, I guess we disagree. I can't think of any car under $30K that I would consider a excellent value when compared to the over $30K bracket.

Rocky

bobad

Okay, I guess we disagree. I can't think of any car under $30K that I would consider a excellent value when compared to the over $30K bracket.

Are $30K cars 33% more reliable than $20K cars? I doubt it. Are they 33% more roomy, safer, roomier, quieter,smoother, etc? Not likely!

rockylee

But they are 33% more technologically advanced when it comes to Gadgetology, Performance, and yes safety systems not found on under $30K priced cars. So yes my arguement still hold it's own IMO. :P

Rocky

snakeweasel

Thats my point exactly, most times with $30K plus cars all you are getting is either a lot of basically useless gadgets or a name or both. In value per buck the $15-25k range cars usually win out. Granted a $35K Benz will have things that a $20-25K sedan (be it Hyundai, Honda, Toyota, Ford or GM) doesn't but is it really worth $10-15 more for powered headrests?

rockylee

Yes to me spending the extra money gets me a very well engineered vehicle with premium materials and gadgets that I will use daily, not to mention performance. A Acura TL IMO is the best value car for people that like cars more than just A to B appliances. The Type-S promises to make this even more true

Rocky

joe97

Gadgets - Navi comes to mind, and I have used less than ten times last year.

Performance - A lot of under 30K have great performance figures now, similarly to those over 30K

Safety - I don't know, but under 30K cars are pretty equipped with available standard features. Some models make them ALL standard too.

bobad

But they are 33% more technologically advanced when it comes to Gadgetology...

I see that as a negative. The only thing I want to be automatic is my transmission. Even then, I like a Shiftronic.

bobad

Yes to me spending the extra money gets me a very well engineered vehicle with premium materials and gadgets that I will use daily, not to mention performance.

Does it really, or does it just get you mostly the perception of it?

rockylee

How can one say a Acura, Lexus, Audi, Mercedes, etc etc aren't better engineered than a $15K Kia. Come-on, apples to oranges.

Rocky

joe97

The better question should be, are you getting your money's worth a.k.a "bang for the buck", or are you just buying the car because of what's on the badge.

snakeweasel

Yes to me spending the extra money gets me a very well engineered vehicle with premium materials and gadgets that I will use daily,

Hate to bust your bubble but paying more does not mean getting better. Many sub $30K cars are engineered as well as $30k+ cars. As for gadgets most are unneeded.

not to mention performance.

Again price does not mean better performance, you can find cars under $30k that are very good performance wise.

A Acura TL IMO is the best value car for people that like cars more than just A to B appliances.

Thats your opinion, others may not hold on to that. I for one don't think the extras you get in the TL warrant the extra price. Thats where value comes in, is it worth at least the extra cost? Many people will say no.

Also what the car will be used for means a lot to. For my sister in law a TL is completely useless as she has a large family and uses a mini van, to me a mini van is useful but not much of a value since we are empty nesters (finally ). For me with regards to my next car a $9,500 Chevy Aveo is a much better value than an Acura TL, why you ask? Simple because it will only be used to go to and from work and maybe the occasional errand so I don't need performance (who can use it locked in rush hour traffic) and I rarely, if ever, use gadgets or even the A/C. So why pay for the extra stuff I won't need or even use?

snakeweasel

When you start getting into that price range most of the time your buying a name.

snakeweasel

But the question is not if they are better engineered but is the value of that "better" engineering worth the extra $15-20-25K or more? A $15K Kia isn't engineered as well as a $75K Benz, but is the better engineering of the Benz really worth the extra $60K? Some say yes, others say no. Some may say its worth an extra $10K some may say $15 or even 20K but not everyone will say its worth an extra $60K.

bobad

Some may say its worth an extra $10K some may say $15 or even 20K but not everyone will say its worth an extra $60K.

I think it depends on how much value the buyer places on money. If you say "easy come easy go", I guess a few trinkets are worth an extra $15K. If you cherish every dollar you work for(like me!)then you don't think bells and whistles are worth it.

I don't mind paying for tangible things that are truly useful. Reliability, safety, room, comfort are worth something to me and I will pay a reasonable price to upgrade them. I am not willing to pay for little conveniences that cost big bucks. And I certainly do not think you can buy status. People may THINK they can buy status, but I'm sorry to say, it's an illusion.

snakeweasel

I think it depends on how much value the buyer places on money.

No that isn't right, economists have a term called utility. Utility is pretty intangible and varies from person to person and across time with the same person and it basically is the value of ones enjoyment. Economists say that people will act to maximize their "utility". This is done buy trading one asset (like money) for another asset (like a car).

So basically if one gets better utility (enjoyment) from a Benz than a Kia that added enjoyment is at the cost of enjoyment of something else (called opportunity cost) if the enjoyment given up for the Benz is greater than the enjoyment received from the Benz then the Benz is not worth it to that individual.

So basically it comes down to how much you value what you give up for the Benz. I would enjoy many years of escaping these Midwest winters for a week in Hawaii than I would from a Benz.

rockylee

I guess I put a large value on gadgets/ comfort conviences since I do use them. I wouldn't buy a Acura TL for a status symbol, even though it is one to many people that value brand named material things. I think the Acura TL for instances protrays the image of a person who likes the fine premium things in life, but is wise and savy with his/hers money IMO. Not many other brands out there can protray that image, but truely isn't a determining factor on why I like the Acura brand and what it represents. The Acura brand as one of my friends best put it.... It is like buying a Armani look a like suit at a Ralph Loren price.
(He said something like that when I baught my 05' TL)

Rocky

bobad

I think the Acura TL for instances protrays the image of a person who likes the fine premium things in life, but is wise and savy with his/hers money IMO.

I think that's very reasonable. It wouldn't be worth it to me, but I can certainly understand that many (or even most) people feel this way about cars in general. I think it's reasonable and even smart, because the TL has 99% of the attributes of the next step up, which isn't really a step up at all. The next step up from a TL is the fancier Audi and Bimmer, and you actually sacrifice quality and reliability. See where this is going? I think my car has 99% of my desired attributes of the next step up, and at a much lower price. That's acceptable to me. Not you, me.

nortsr1

This disagreement could go on forever. I thought this topic was about Toyota fearing Hyundai??? How about getting back on Topic!!!

bobad

This disagreement could go on forever. I thought this topic was about Toyota fearing Hyundai??? How about getting back on Topic!!!

What's to talk about? It's been proven that Toyota fears Hyundai. Toyota said so themselves. Case closed.

rockylee

fair enough bobad...

If Toyota fears Hyundai, then so does everyone else.

Rocky

bobad

fair enough bobad...

If Toyota fears Hyundai, then so does everyone else.

I think you're right. They certainly have me scared!

rockylee

Time to dig that Fox-hole :P

Rocky

heel2toe

I think Toyota has been worrying about Hyundai for awhile...isn't competition between Japanese and Korean companies a pretty old phenomenon? I know that HyunKia has only been building competetive vehicles for a decade or less, but competition in many other industries has been going on longer than that. It seems to be that Japanese and Korean companies tend to be large, multi-dimensional enterprises that compete on all sorts of fronts.

In some ways, I'd guess it is easier for Toyota to focus on Korean companies as adversaries than those from Europe or North America. I'd suspect Toyota is pretty paranoid in general, though.

lemko

...Hyundai fears Geely?

snakeweasel

Smart money is that Hyundai, like all car manufacturers, are keeping a close eye on Geely. If Geely will be the next Yugo or the next Hyundai only time will tell.

bobad

And don't forget Chery.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0504/22/1auto-159177.htm

Pretty color, eh?

rockylee

Geely fears that India car company

Rocky

lemko

...and that India car company fears the blacksmith in the Amazon jungle who is hammering out cars based on old Yugo GVs using pig iron and corrugated metal.

snakeweasel

And that blacksmith is fearing the bicycle and the bicycle is fearing the horse and the horse is fearing the foot and the foot is fearing the chair and the chair is fearing the recliner and the recliner is fearing the vibrating recliner and the vibrating recliner is fearing the vibrating recliner with a place to put your remote and your drink and the vibrating recliner with the........

And so on and so forth.

bobad

Ummm...drinking in a vibrating recliner? Wouldn't that make beer shoot out of your nose? :mad:

I don't know if thare is prevasive fear at Toyota, but they ARE concerned. They have actually said so.

snakeweasel

Ummm...drinking in a vibrating recliner? Wouldn't that make beer shoot out of your nose?

Sure but think about how much easier it would be to make a martini.

fezo

Good thing they monitor these discussions for getting off topic.

rockylee

LOL. I wonder if yugo could make a comeback to put the fear back into everyone ?

Rocky

bobad

Fear, or fits of laughter?

Ironic you say that Rockylee. The man that's trying to import the Chery line of cars (from China)is the same guy that imported the Yugo years ago. I wonder if he learned anything from the experience?

rockylee

Ironic you say that Rockylee. The man that's trying to import the Chery line of cars (from China)is the same guy that imported the Yugo years ago. I wonder if he learned anything from the experience?

WOW, I did not know that. Now that is very interesting pal. :surprise:

Rocky

snakeweasel

No I don't think he learned from it. IIRC he tried to reintroduce the Yugo however political events over there stopped it.

iluvmysephia1

he also brought Subaru over here. Some people really love their Subaru's.

Visionary Vehicles, Ltd. will be a success because low prices win out in America. The Chery's and other assorted Chinese rigs Bricklin brings over here will sell well.

Very well.

rockylee

I hope your wrong on the CHIN-E cars

Rocky

norne

I do not think they will sell well just because they are the lowest priced vehicle. We have already seen what happend with Yugo and look at Hyundai. Hyundai sold close to 300k units in the 1st year but sales quickly fell off due to poor quality.

While some americans will buy chinese vehicles but it won't be an instant hit.

bobad

Hyundai sold close to 300k units in the 1st year but sales quickly fell off due to poor quality.

I'm speechless.

lemko

Yeah, Bricklin brought over the Subaru when it was still a goofy little microcar. Subaru didn't become successful until Bricklin was long gone. Bricklin is King Midas in reverse. If he was involved with Toyota, we'd still be making jokes about the loser who tried to market those goofy little Japanese cars with a name the started with a "T." He tried to build his own sports car in Canada which today is regarded as one of history's biggest blunders.