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Comments
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think you're what they call an "echo boomer".
Hyundai has vaulted up the list in the last couple of years (and Porsche has also done some vaulting this time). Wonder when/if Kia will follow suit. Toyota is smart in keeping a close eye on its Korean rival.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Is Toyota fearing Hyundai?
I would guess "yes"
Looks like the king is still Toyota, but someone is closing fast - very fast. Do you recall when Kmart was number one and Sears number two? All the sudden a company from Arkansas leap frogged over both to become the leader. :surprise:
-Loren
Does it mean I am real old if I remember Sears being number 1?
Have a friend who used to live in a house bought out of a Sears catalog.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Does it mean I am real old if I remember Sears being number 1?
And remember that W. T. Grant was #1 before that ... and the largest retailer in the 70's. Before their collapse, that is.
While Toyota is still the Apple of one's eye for car reviewers, there are new Windows of opportunity in clear view at Hyundai. If you get the clue.
-Loren
Here you go
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Don't forget its only a 90 day survey.
Now of course, if the long-term reliability surveys continue to be sub-par, then resale for these same people will take a hit, which they may not appreciate.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Price competition and better quality mean all car buyers benefit.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I recently bought a Hyundai after over 6 months of research and test driving of many cars, including Honda and Toyota. Although I'm not an auto professional, I've been buying cars (mostly imports) since 1968, and since I perform most of the maintenance on my cars - both light and intensive - I am confident in my ability to know quality when I see it.
When I bought the new Hyundai, I was going against the masses, and certainly against what a number of my friends expected, especially since I've owned some pretty expensive and well-respected cars in the past. However, I went with what my research and inspection told me as well as a "gut feeling" that Hyundai may just be a heck of a car at a very decent price. My neighbors thought I was somewhat crazy, although they respect my knowledge on cars.
It's a feeling similar to what I had back in the early '70s when I bought Hondas and Toyotas - effectively I, and many others, were on the leading-edge of the curve, and knew quality and value irrespective of what the masses felt at that time.
I've said it before, I feel that Hyundai is paralleling Toyotas growth in this country, but they actually may be progressing at a faster rate than most of us expected.
http://www.cartest.ca/2005_most_reliable_vehicles.htm#top_vehicles_by_category__- - 2002_model
When you access this page, click on the link to catagories(best in each catagory). Midsized sedans were Malibu, Alero, Sonata.
Take Care/Not Offense.
I am not saying troubles won't happen later on if they don't show up earlier. What I am saying is that if something is going to fail because of poor workmanship its more likely to be sooner than later.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think the LaCrosse was OK, but a few issues with the Lucerne. I bet that is the score. Look them up on the JD site. Kinda looks that way. The Alero was pretty bad in 2001, and best in 2003. Then it became history.
I think Hyundai could take some sales away from Toyota -- even the Lexus. And GM Cadillac may be working its way towards getting some of Lexus sales back. For a company with AWD, Subaru just can not get any traction
The Azera is about the same price or less than a Camry V6, so look out. It may not be a Lexus, but it is something pretty darn good, at least from what I can see. Looked at them a couple times. No drive yet, but looks like a lot for the money.
-Loren
"The Azera is about the same price or less than a Camry V6, so look out. It may not be a Lexus, but it is something pretty darn good, at least from what I can see. Looked at them a couple times. No drive yet, but looks like a lot for the money."
um, in my opinion Hyundai may take a few sales away from Toyota but people who are shopping Lexus aren't going to look at a Hyundai I don't think unless they are comparing the Azera vs the the ES 350. I can;t see an Azera cross shopped across with the likes of the Lexus GS or LS 430.
Yeah but so has most of the industry inproved in quality/reliability since 2001. Hyundai and GM had alot of improving to do in terms of quality/reliability to catch up with the compeition.
"This year Buick dropped though. What's up with that. Or should I say down
I'm surprised Buick dropped down the survey. I mean Buick is usually the best sruveyed GM brand by CR and JD the last 4-5 years since I have been following the CR and JD surveys. Sometimes though caddy has beaten out Buick in the JD survey I think in the past few years.
"I think the LaCrosse was OK, but a few issues with the Lucerne. I bet that is the score. Look them up on the JD site. Kinda looks that way."
Wait isn't the Lucrene made in GM's Ontario plant? I;m surprised becase even CR rated the Pontiac Grand Prix very reliable and the Buick LaCrosse which are produced in Gm's Ontario Plant.
The Alero was pretty bad in 2001, and best in 2003. Then it became history.
What year did the Alero debut on the market? Wasn;t it somewhere in the 1998-1999 period?
Well, congratulations for taking a chance on another brands product. Most people stay with the same brand for their whole lifetime because it works for them.
"I've said it before, I feel that Hyundai is paralleling Toyotas growth in this country, but they actually may be progressing at a faster rate than most of us expected."
No, Toyota has gained more sales so far this year in the US from 2005 figures than any manufacturer in the US market. So, Hyundai isn't paralleling Toyota for sales growth in the US. I should also add Toyota's sales to fleets were only 7% of its sales from September 2005 to Janurary 2006 compared with Hyundai/Kia which rental fleets were 21% of its sales during the same time period.
I think Hyundai, is very much improved and does make very reliable cars, but is that good enough ????
In my eyes, I don't think so yet.
Rocky
Rocky, Toyota disagrees with you. A top official stated he was worried about Hyundai making inroads into their market. Toyota's profit on each unit is huge, so if Hyundai cuts too deeply, they can drop their prices $2K -$3K on the Camry and still make a good profit.
Rocky
P.S. you get more "value" for your dollar.
Smart Toyota execs are fearing Hyundai. Just as sure as the last Super Bowl was forced to be a Steeler victory by some unscrupulous referees(three of them have been banned by the NFL to ever ref another Super Bowl game, yes. Ben R.was joking on late-night TV that he knew he didn't get in the end zone on that play called a TD with him carrying the ball. There's too many bad calls to discuss now. Rest assured that Seattle was the true winner of the 2006 Super Bowl) top Toyota execs are fearing Hyundai and have been for many, many moons now.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
You like GM cars. Name a GM or Toyota car which has side air bags, anti-lock brakes, stability control, 233HP V6, aluminum wheels, and well ya get the point, all for under $20K right now, as priced for a Sonata. And for around less than $21K you can add leather and auto climate control and auto outside air when outside air is bad. How does GM or Toyota give you more value?
Now, there is the unknown, as in with a new car and new plant something could go terribly wrong. So far it has not. They are running on all cylinders. Even the new Camry assumes some risk, as it is new. Risk aside, name the elements of a GM or Toyota car which are better? Maybe the real world gas mileage? Nothing really I can think of off hand to justify $3k to $5k difference in pricing. Let me know. I did have good experiences with Toyota dealerships come repair time, or oil changes.
Maybe we could site style preference here? That is pretty subjective though. What mechanical is an advantage of Toyota?
-Loren
So yes buying a car with all the sophistication of a Acura TL for $33,500 w/ summer tires, 6-speed w/ Voice Recognition Navigation flat out makes more dollars and sense then spending a $28+K on a Azera, because at the end of the day the Acura will be worth alot more than the Hyundai which is nothing more than a inflated Mercury Montego/Ford Five-Hundred.
Well seriously do a comparison between the 3 and tell me I'm wrong. I'd take the Merc over a Azera anyday if I wanted value. The Acura TL blows both of them away in all categories..... performance, fuel economy, gadgetology, you name it the Acura brand is speaks value Loren. Also when I shift that stick in 6-th, I'm saving not only the enviroment with ULEV II, but I'm also saving money in my pocket with 35 mpg. :P
Perhaps Loren, now that makes sense and really I can't see how anyone could disagree with me on the Azera vs. TL topic.
Rocky
Yes, the Montego or Five Hundred look like good values and are safe cars, if not a little boring. Possibly a best value in a way as a family type car. And used, the Ford would be a cheap buy.
I would think you could buy an Azera in the $23K range after negotiations.
Is the TL a FWD car?
-Loren
Who's going to want a base model ? I sure don't.
Even if the resale is as bad as Acura site shows it to be for the Azera, you still would be more than $200 ahead.
I'd let you have your $200 and for that extra $200 that's money that would give me lots of pleasure, not to mention I could eat up that savings in Fuel Economy within a few months. :P
During that time the cash you keep could make you money.
Well on a lease it goes off of residuals and Hyundai doesn't have the clout of the Japanese elites.
And the warranty is longer so add a few more bucks in value.
Acura's don't break down, thus the warranty is worthless on a Acura product. If I wanted to be cautious I could negotiate that into the deal for piece of mind up to 100K
The Acura TL is OK, but overpriced.
Loren, I respect your opinion, but seriously you need to drive one and tell me they are over priced. If anything is over priced it's the Azera. Come-on what do you really get for that nearly $28K price tag ?????? Whoopie a PWR sunshade, 6-airbags and ?????? *yawn* If you want to compete where's the electronics and luxury at ????? Oh there isn't any. :P
If I paid over $30K it would be the CTS or a BMW.
The CTS is throwing money down the drain. It's very outdated and I've driven both. The CTS has RWD, but it doesn't come close to handling as well as the TL and the TL will smoke a CTS and BMW 330i in a race. :shades:
Oh god the BMW, sure it handles as well, but it also costs $10-20K more to get a few gadgets. a no nav 6 speed 330i is almost $45K and down here the BMW dealers don't know how to negotiate very well.
Give me the TL again.
The Acura doesn't get 35MPG.
Well my 6-speed tranny on a flat surface running 91' Phillips gasoline got 36 mpg. One guy in the Acura TL forum claims to get 42 mpg with his 6 speed. Is it possible well ???? maybe in a low sea level climate or with the wind blowing against your back
Yes, the Montego or Five Hundred look like good values and are safe cars, if not a little boring.
And the Hyundai Azera isn't boring ???? :confuse:
Possibly a best value in a way as a family type car. And used, the Ford would be a cheap buy.
Okay we finally agree.
I would think you could buy an Azera in the $23K range after negotiations.
Well not down here at the local dealership. $23K will get you a Azera minus a engine. Some of my friends were like I could get a Montego or five-hundred and pocket the change after I negotiate the 100K warranty into the final cost.
Is the TL a FWD car?
Yes which also allows it to be driven year around, a plus for many. That's something a BMW and Lexus IS 350 can't do.
The TL is rumored to exceed 300 horsepower and get the most sophisticated AWD system made, the SH-AWD. :P
I love messing with ya Loren, but don't I provide some good points for a good arguement
I can go outside my GM bubble. The Acura brand is the only brand I would re-consider outside of a GM product. If the TL get's the rumored SH-AWD and over 300 hp. I'm going to need you to knock me over the head to keep me from re-shopping one again. I really miss my Anthracite TL and yes again I got over 35 mpg in 6th gear. The manual Tranny is also another exclusive reason why to shop this car. Does the Azera have a manul option :P
Rocky
True but you pay for that up front. I could buy the Acura TL or I could buy the Azera and have Almost $7,000 in extra cash after only 3 years. The claim that one will have a better resale value seems to be trying to justify spending more for the car.
I have always said that resale vale is over rated in many car buying decisions. First of all the longer one keeps a car the less it is a factor, and for someone like me who keeps cars until the falls apart it is completely meaningless. Secondly people should get the vehicle that suits their needs and that they like, why should you compromise your taste simply to resell higher at a much later date. Finally it really isn't better to buy a car that has a higher resale value if it costs more to begin with.
So yes buying a car with all the sophistication of a Acura TL for $33,500 w/ summer tires, 6-speed w/ Voice Recognition Navigation flat out makes more dollars and sense then spending a $28+K on a Azera, because at the end of the day the Acura will be worth alot more than the Hyundai
Actually I cannot see paying more for fluff (I mean how many people actually use the navigation systems) when at the end of the day you will most likely come out ahead with the Azera.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I seriously doubt that since the two cars are only 1MPG apart in their EPA numbers
The CTS is throwing money down the drain. It's very outdated and I've driven both. The CTS has RWD, but it doesn't come close to handling as well as the TL and the TL will smoke a CTS and BMW 330i in a race.
Oh let me get my CTS I'll take them on.
The TL is rumored to exceed 300 horsepower and get the most sophisticated AWD system made, the SH-AWD
Well rumors are just rumors. But if it comes to pass it will add a lot to the price.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Your words have helped to feel more confident about my purchase of a 2006 Hyundia Tiburon. While researching for 2 months, I could not help but to keep being drawn back to the Tiburon...not only for the looks, the price, the ride, and the warranty, but also the numerous testimonies from people like you who are very happy with their car.
I also feel as if I'm going against the masses. When I tell people I'm getting a Hyundia, some people automatically crinkle their noses. One friend asked me "How can you go from a Nissan to a Hyundia??!!" Lately, (because I have in fact commited to buying the car now), I feel defensive when I tell people about my new car...I'm ready to convince them that's it's a good car, and that I've made the right choice.
I'm also going "with my gut" feeling here. I believe Hyundia will soon be considered a "good buy". Their past reputation has obviously left a mark on some people...even though their sales and reviews have greatly improved. I chaulk it up to ignorance because I have to admit, I also assumed Hyundia was an unreliable, irreputable, cheap car. After reading reviews and testimonies, I now believe Hyundia is about to change EVERYONE's belief and I'd be foolish to NOT buy a Hyundia!!
The CTS I have sat in it. I was dissapointed in the interior fit and finish. Styling also the CTS the styling is not for me but than again exterior styling is subjective. The 3 series have you sat in it? To me its cramped in the 3 Series. My 2 dr Acura CL feels more comfy to sit in than the 06 3 series inside.The 3 series I would think the 3 Series would cost more to maintain than the TL in the long term in terms of maintenance and repair.
I'm not sure where you get saving $7,000 by buying a Azera. :confuse: Well if you lease or buy at the end of the day "most consumers within 5 years will want something new". I have the same feelings about people who only look at up-front cost. Is the Hyundai Azera really worth $27 or 28K ????? Well when compared to a Montego or Five-Hundred then that value doesn't looks so great. Anyone can buy a 100K extended factory warranty for pocket change. Is that pocket change warrant enough to put customers in there cars ???? Sure some how the gimmick has worked :confuse:
I have always said that resale vale is over rated in many car buying decisions. First of all the longer one keeps a car the less it is a factor, and for someone like me who keeps cars until the falls apart it is completely meaningless. Secondly people should get the vehicle that suits their needs and that they like, why should you compromise your taste simply to resell higher at a much later date. Finally it really isn't better to buy a car that has a higher resale value if it costs more to begin with.
I agree with you. I'm just pointing out that for $28K one can get more car or spend a little more and get alot more car and make up the difference when it comes to sell the car if one eventually wants to.
Actually I cannot see paying more for fluff (I mean how many people actually use the navigation systems) when at the end of the day you will most likely come out ahead with the Azera.
Well most people I know use there bluetooth, and Acura has a excellent Navigation System that has Voice Recognition to operate via voice commands, the audio, climate, points of interest and essentials on the navigation unit without needing a map. These feature are very useful if one is traveling to a new area. I for example used my navigation system to locate several co-worker/friends homes, used it to find Golf Courses, and buisness establishments locally. I also used it to find a new route home that saved me 10 minutes driving time.
I seriously doubt that since the two cars are only 1MPG apart in their EPA numbers
With 5 speed automatics, that might be true. The Acura TL with a 6-speed manuel with that tall 6th gear, provides it's owner with 35+ mpg. One owner claims to get 42 mpg in 6th gear. The best I ever got was 37 mpg with no wind and driving on a flat surface. On a flat surface with wind it would hold steady at 36 mpg and it's typically very windy up here in the high plains. Driving from Amarillo to Dumas where there is a few steep and small hills I'd get 35 mpg. in 6th. My Average MPG which included city driving in Amarillo and Dumas was 26.8 mpg. I also had a lead foot leaving stop lights pretty fast, and the average consumer could achieve a better avg. mpg.
Oh let me get my CTS I'll take them on.
Sure, but you failed to mention that "V" letter after the CTS :P Let me take the $13K MSRP difference and add a chip and a couple of turbo's and then lets race for titles. :P
Well rumors are just rumors. But if it comes to pass it will add a lot to the price.
Well a lady I'm chatting with does leases, and her fleet manger said the Type-S Acura TL with over 300 hp. and SH-AWD will be out within 3 months :surprise:
Rocky
P.S. go to the Acura forum I created for my next post......Neways Toyota doesn't need to fear Hyundai and either does Honda, because at the end of the day both car company's offer butt loads of better technolgy=better value than any Hyundai.
For what it is, I think that the Acura is actually quite well priced for its market. Compared to direct rivals (G35, Volvo S40 and S60, A4, C-class, etc.), it is within the range.
As for BMW, try to get a 3-series with the equipment level of a TL, and you will pay a good deal more for the Bimmer. While a TL comes well loaded with standard equipment (your only options are an automatic transmission and NAV system), the BMW comes with very little standard, and typical option packages will add thousands to the MSRP. It doesn't take much to turn a $30k 3-series into a $40-45k MSRP.
Isn't that the truth.
As for BMW, try to get a 3-series with the equipment level of a TL, and you will pay a good deal more for the Bimmer.
That's the thing Socala you can't get the equipment level on any BMW that matches a TL. About the only feature that's on the BMW I can think of, that's not on the TL is swivel headlamps.
While a TL comes well loaded with standard equipment (your only options are an automatic transmission and NAV system), the BMW comes with very little standard, and typical option packages will add thousands to the MSRP. It doesn't take much to turn a $30k 3-series into a $40-45k MSRP.
A fully loaded no Navi, No Active steering car, will run you $44K and change. Add those features and you on your way into the 50 range. Socala I priced up a fully loaded 330i and was sitting at $53K :surprise: :surprise: :surprise:
Rocky
Presuming both buyers pay a 15% down payment and the Azera buyer invests the difference in the down payment as well as the difference in the monthly payment after 3 years with minimal interest one should be approaching $7K.
I agree with you. I'm just pointing out that for $28K one can get more car or spend a little more and get alot more car and make up the difference when it comes to sell the car if one eventually wants to.
I disagree with that, I think that what you get with the Azera would not come cheap in another car. I seriously wouldn't think that you get as much for less with a 500.
With 5 speed automatics, that might be true. The Acura TL with a 6-speed manuel with that tall 6th gear, provides it's owner with 35+ mpg.
Sorry the EPA gives the 6 speed 30/20 I will go by that, I would accept an error of +/- 10% but not almost 20%. So unless I see it for myself or get it from someone I trust (no offense just that we don't know each other from Adam) I will not believe an EPA rated 30 MPG car is getting 36 MPG.
Well most people I know use there bluetooth,
Most cell phones today make bluetooth unnecessary as many have hands free voice activated dialing with speaker phones and even now with bluetooth in them. You should see bluetooth in cars disappearing in 5 years or so.
Acura has a excellent Navigation System that has Voice Recognition to operate via voice commands, the audio, climate, points of interest and essentials on the navigation unit without needing a map.
To be perfectly honest I have only needed a nav system maybe 2 or 3 times in my entire life, nowhere near the need to warrant a $2,000+ price increase in my car. And to be honest many people agree with that view.
Sure, but you failed to mention that "V" letter after the CTS
#1. If you knew what I paid for the Caddy you would be shocked and most likely not believe it.
#2. While the TL would be able to beat the 2.8 liter CTS and the Auto version of the 3.6 liter the 6 speed manual mated to the 3.6 will give the TL a run for its money. On the net I find 0-60 times from about 6.7 to 7.2 for both the TL and the CTS 6 Speed Manual
Well a lady I'm chatting with does leases, and her fleet manger said the Type-S Acura TL with over 300 hp. and SH-AWD will be out within 3 months
Ok at what price?
P.S. go to the Acura forum I created for my next post
Sorry on way to many forums as it is, if you want to keep this up keep it here, if you expect me to follow to a forum that I am not already on you will be waiting a long time.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Okay fair enough
disagree with that, I think that what you get with the Azera would not come cheap in another car. I seriously wouldn't think that you get as much for less with a 500.
We disagree and the Mercury Montego further validates my arguement.
Sorry the EPA gives the 6 speed 30/20 I will go by that, I would accept an error of +/- 10% but not almost 20%. So unless I see it for myself or get it from someone I trust (no offense just that we don't know each other from Adam) I will not believe an EPA rated 30 MPG car is getting 36 MPG.
Okay fair enough, I guess one way to prove it to you would that you go test drive a TL on a flat HWY in 6th gear, to see for yourself. :P
Most cell phones today make bluetooth unnecessary as many have hands free voice activated dialing with speaker phones and even now with bluetooth in them. You should see bluetooth in cars disappearing in 5 years or so.
But wouldn't the car still need to have the bluetooth system to allow conversations to go through the speakers ?
To be perfectly honest I have only needed a nav system maybe 2 or 3 times in my entire life, nowhere near the need to warrant a $2,000+ price increase in my car. And to be honest many people agree with that view.
Well I guess you live where you grew up or just have a natural ability to "tune in" on new territory to find your destination.
#1. If you knew what I paid for the Caddy you would be shocked and most likely not believe it.
Probably not....remember I get a GM discount which put's me quite a bit under invoice.
#2. While the TL would be able to beat the 2.8 liter CTS and the Auto version of the 3.6 liter the 6 speed manual mated to the 3.6 will give the TL a run for its money.
Nope you'd seriously dissapear in the TL's mirrors if you were driving a 3.6 HF 6-speed manuel CTS
Ok at what price?
I'm sure we will find out very soon from edmunds.
Sorry on way to many forums as it is, if you want to keep this up keep it here, if you expect me to follow to a forum that I am not already on you will be waiting a long time.
fair enough.
I was trying to keep on topic, but I suppose Honda vs. Hyundai could be included. The bottom line is Hyundai, Cadillac, currently aren't competing with Honyota in features, and value. They both are 2nd best, which saddens me because I'm a GM fan that's very dissapointed about the current product and the new product delays.
On the net I find 0-60 times from about 6.7 to 7.2 for both the TL and the CTS 6 Speed Manual
Those are 0-60 times for a automatic TL. Actually Motor Trend tested a automatic TL that did 6.1 0-60. Those figures are accurate for a 6-speed CTS which is heavy.
The 6-speed Manuel TL 0-60 tests I've seen run anywhere from 5.6-5.8 range. Motor Trend I do remeber did a 5.7 run and one of the other car mags got a 5.6 run on a 2004' TL.
Rocky
Cell phones have speakers in them, most which work very well.
Probably not....remember I get a GM discount which put's me quite a bit under invoice.
The GM discount wouldn't come close to what I paid, Remember the dealer can basically sell any car for any price, think Quid Pro Quo.
Nope you'd seriously dissapear in the TL's mirrors if you were driving a 3.6 HF 6-speed manuel CTS
I don't think so.
Those are 0-60 times for a automatic TL. Actually Motor Trend tested a automatic TL that did 6.1 0-60. Those figures are accurate for a 6-speed CTS which is heavy.
I never saw a 6.1 seep for the TL when I did the web search, secondly the CTS is only a few pounds heavier than the CTS, put a lap dog in a TL and it weighs more than the CTS.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Not as well as car audio speakers. But I guess that's a opinion by individuals.
The GM discount wouldn't come close to what I paid, Remember the dealer can basically sell any car for any price, think Quid Pro Quo.
The way I see it is a buddy of yours must own a GM dealership and took a bath to give you that good of a deal, assuming it really was that good of a deal. My GM discount only leaves about 2-3% holdback money room for profits and thus leaving the dealer to send in a GMS reimbursement sheet to make up the difference, which used to be 4% over invoice. I'm not sure exactly what they are getting now from GM.
I don't think so.
There's a difference between you thinking so, and me knowing so. :P
I never saw a 6.1 seep for the TL when I did the web search, secondly the CTS is only a few pounds heavier than the CTS, put a lap dog in a TL and it weighs more than the CTS.
2004 Acura TL 6.3 14.8
2004 Acura TL 6 speed 6.0 14.44
2004 Acura TL A Spec 5.7 14.25
http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/0-60times.html
That was easy enough. :P
Rocky
Yes that is strictly opinion, but most speakerphones om todays cell phones are more than good enough for all in the car to hear clearly.
The way I see it is a buddy of yours must own a GM dealership and took a bath to give you that good of a deal,
It was a business associate of my moms boyfriend whom I did some pretty big favors for.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
-Loren
http://www.jinbn.com/2006/06/16211758.html