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Comments
As I stated previously, volume is not indications for success, it's part of it
Worldwide, I think there is plenty of room for everyone, and I have no doubt that the Koreans and then the Chinese will draw level with, maybe even pass, the Japanese in global sales. (Domestics too)
Does Toyota seek global domination, or just steady and profitable growth? I think the latter. And no-one is going to dominate the global marketplace anyway.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I would agree with that to some extent. But to clarify further, my response was to add to the discussion on sales volume (certain company being larger than certain other company, or some company selling so many units over a year in some market...).
In comparison, edmunds.com says the private party sale price of a Civic EX coupe is about $8200, and that of a 2001 Corolla S is about $7300. But as you noted, they cost a lot more than your Tiburon back when you bought it, so they should be worth more now.
Backy is right-- Don't blame the Honda, you're just way out of line on your asking price.
Now, all they need is a sporty compact,to compete with the likes of the Scion tC, or the upcoming Mitsubishi Lancer(or Both!).
My guess by 2015 the 5 top manufactures in the U.S. will be.
1. Toyota
2. GM
3. Hyundai/Kia
4. Ford
5. Honda
6. Nissan
7. Dodge
8. VW
U.S. sales in 2015? I say
1. GM
2. Toyota
3. Ford (as long as those F-150 sales hold up; Ford is pretty much a one-trick pony on the sales front)
4. Honda
Those will be the big 4. It is hard to predict the futures of Nissan, which I think is about to fall hard, and of the Chrysler Group, which may be about to do the same.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But I don't see Hyundai/Kia topping Ford or Honda in the next few years. Nissan? Quite possible. Kia is coming out with some very good cars too, including the Sedona, Optima, and Rondo.
Read the review--it wasn't the Optima's sportiness that the editors raved about.
It has really been a fun ride with Kia the past 8 years. Being a new '08 Lancer GTS owner and Mitsu fan hasn't dampened my admiration for Kia and big bro Hyundai whatsover. They have both won so many awards the past 5 years or so that these dumb comments from so-called automotive know-it-alls here on Edmunds and elsewhere really has me wondering what Americans are taking to erase memory banks. The automotive writers are awake to the South Koreans and the world's finest student's by score are turning some of that talent towards automotive production, and the results are finally being realized as being superior. Superior to *gulp* Toyota and Honda even.
BTW-the Long Haul Warranty is not a Warranty that evades the consumer. I didn't need it much but I had two great dealer/dealer service departments who were smart enough to know that crappy customer service after the sale was not gonna cut it. I would return to the Kia fold as a new customer in the future without hesitation.
Toyota fearing Hyundai? I'd say they're looking fervently over their shoulder, at least.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Hyundai has always been quick to push "upmarket" in the last few years, and I think they were always slightly ahead of where they should have been. In 2000 the Hyundai was ALWAYS the lower-priced model when compared to the competition, and now that's not the case in many of the lower-priced segments.
And now we see them wanting to release a V-8 entry-lux sedan at $30K or so before decade's end? They should be very sure they have a fall-back position if sales don't take off with each step upwards. Thoughts of building a Kia plant in the U.S. seem like another example of going too fast.
In the meantime, they seem to be following the Toyota play-book absolutely word for word, even mimicking model offerings in large part, it seems. That might be the biggest reason for Toyota to worry, because after all the Toyota playbook led to the large success Toyota is currently enjoying.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
However, I'm sure that Toyota's marketing department is forced to keep a wary eye on Hyundai, and to react to them in small ways. At this point, I don't think Toyota is losing any sleep over Hyundai. However, if Hundai keeps the pressure on in their product and marketing improvements, they could do some real damage to Toyota's market share in the years to come.
I don't think Hyundai/Kia is going to make large inroads in to Toyota profits, nor cause them loss of sleep. Although, I have heard things that make me want to reconsider that thought, namely, that the Japanese work ethic is unrelenting and very, very strong. And full of pride. And determination. That is what it is and why knock it? Point to consider is that Toyota workers at whatever level may be starting to get jittery a tad, when you factor in that hard-working ethic. Thing is, the sales results are very hard to knock for Toyota, nor their stock value.
Hyundai and Kia officials know who they're chasing. It's not my current favorite, Mitsubishi Motors, is it? I do love my '08 Lancer GTS, though.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
It has been cited in different places that Toyota is keepinga vigilant eye on Hyundai.
Hyundai recently teamed up with JM&A to handle their warranty claims, and just about any Toyota person knows who Jim Moran & Associates is since they contributed immensely with building Toyota's custoemr satisfaction. Last week we had a few JM&A guys here at the dealership training our F&I manager on the new process and I took the chance to ask them what they thought of Hyundai. All of them commented on the progress Hyundai has made and also on how Toyota has stated several times they they are watching Hyundai, and a few of them even own Hyundais.
Yesterday at teh Verzcruz Launch Event one of the guys spent 20 years with Toyota and even he supported the claim that Toyota was in fact looking over their shoulders at Hyundai.
What I'm getting at is that most people who are in the auto industry will tell you, maybe where no one can hear, that Hyundai is the marque to keep an eye on in the future.
What gets me though is when people actually advise others to shy aways from Hyundai due to their low resell value.
How the heck can a company expect to boost their resell value if people tell others not to buy the vehicles because of the value?
The cars are a GREAT value, and next year there will be excitement injected to the brand when the first of the BH platform vehicles hit.
To those of us that appreciate the domestic models from the 60's(like I do)it appears to me that the South Koreans are beating the Americans in the bodystyling category(DUH!).
Does anybody see that turning around? With maybe Saturn, for starters? New Chevy models like the '08 Malibu? Nah, that's off topic, we won't go there now.
There's this other Japanese car maker over there that makes a cool little Rally Red 4-door sedan that doesn't do too badly in the bodystyling department, either.
Slowly but surely there are getting to be more choices in the small car range, even considering my Lancer a small car. I kind of liked the old Lancer but this new Lancer runs design and build circles around their old one.
So I do feel that Hyundai is ahead of Toyota in the styling department. How their car's hold up is getting better all the time and many say they're there now, reliability-wise. Improvements can always be made and both Toyota and Hyundai are ever-so-aware of that fact.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
A lot of Hyundai's "low resale value" is smoke and mirrors. If the statistics go by the new car's sticker price, and go by new car dealer trade in allowance, yes, it will be very bad.
The good news is, YOU can influence your resale value. If you pay bottom dollar when you buy a new Hyundai, take great care of it, then sell your old Hyundai privately for top dollar, then your resale value will be excellent.
Yes, a 5 year old Honda will fetch $4K more at the used car dealer than a comparable Hyundai. But duh, the Hyundai probably cost $5-$7K less than the Honda when new.
A new $25K Accord costs you $24-$25K. A $23K Sonata costs you $18-$19K. Those who criticize Hyundai's resale value don't take that into account.
PS
Dealers bank on the fact that most people are too lazy to sell their used car.
I took a look, and it appears that comparison is badly skewed. People don't pay $23K for a Sonata, as the Edmunds TCO charts show. They pay $18-$19K. I got a nicely equipped '06 V6 for $17,600. At that time, an equally equipped Camry and accord were going for $24-$25K. Not on paper, mind you, but in real dollars.
Also, how does Edmunds know A. What I can sell my car for in 5 years, and B., What I will spend on repairs over 5 years? The repair projections are totally blown out of the water anyway. The NF Sonata has a 5 year bumper-to-bumper warranty. I don't think it's likely that one can one spend $534 on it in 5 years. They would have to put some serious mileage on it.
partially because of being an American site, I reside in Canada. The only figure that made any sense at all to me was the cash price difference when I compared two particular trucks. As far as operating costs go, don't know what hat they were drawn from. And depreciation? My insurance rate is half of that stated, the financing is way out of whack, and my mileage is half. But then again, I suppose it's really only meant to be some sort of a guideline for comparison purposes, and there are definite regional differences.
True Cost to Own assumes you drive 15,000 miles. At that rate the basic warranty will have expired at the end of 4 years so maybe that's where the $534 comes from.
Kia recognizes that it needs to increase its resale values and I'm sure Hyundai does too. 5-9-07 Kia Chat
If demand is low when purchased, how will that change after 5 years?
Domestics are the same way. :surprise:
Porsche, BMW, Toyota, Honda don't have these problems.
They don't need rebates. Don't need to give the car away. People want them new. They want them used.
Not very difficult problem when you think about it.
BTW, Hyundai sales were flat last year (despite a lot of new product), and have been down this year, so let's keep the champagne on ice until they show people want their cars. :sick:
Questionable startegy: Sales have leveled off, so start comparing the lineup to companies that sell less than you do?
I guess VW fell down in the forest, and didn't make a sound.
DrFill
I remember with glee having to learn popping the clutch and adding acceleration just right with Seattle drivers about a foot away from my rear bumper waiting for the green lights to turn in downtown Seattle(on steep hills). I would look in my rear view mirrow and wait for a "crunch" that wouldn't happen. Fun.
Funny, I can't seem to concentrate on any new world order VW's at all with interest. It's not their looks it's their poor reliability that stops further looks from me.
New VW's generally look much better than new Toyota's, too, eh?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Huh? Why? Nissan is one of the best built cars out there. I have one and love it. There will always be a place for a company that builds a quality vehicle at a price less than Toyota, which is untouchable at this point.
I'd say Ford is the one that's gonna fall hard.
Yeah sales mean everything right? Yeah I guess we were all under the rock when Hyundai had strikes and scandal which greatly affected production. So what if its small cars were in high demand? So what if the Santa Fe is doing extremely well? So what if the main drop YOY had to do with Sonata's purposeful fleet program in 06 (and you will continue to see the drop YOY for the Sonata).
FWIW, from a sales standpoint, Hyundai is #6 worldwide behind GM, Toyota, Ford, VW, and DCX as of 2005 (2006 should be released soon). What would the breakup of DCX mean in the sales standing in 2007? One wonders...
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
If Toyota doesn't need rebates, why does it offer them? Why does Honda need to offer subsidized leasing programs on many vehicles, and huge manufacturer-to-dealer incentives on the Accord to get them off the lots?
Did you notice the guidance that Toyota just gave out on their sales for the next year? They are predicting flat sales. This is a tough car market right now--Hyundai isn't the only one with sales levelling off.
Nissan goes through periods of good and bad quality, depending on their financial fortunes at the particular moment.
I will be intrigued if Hyun/Kia manages to pass Nissan in U.S. sales in the next decade. I think it is possible, but not likely. Of course, Korean trucks will have a taxes-and-tariffs pass under a new trade deal just negotiated, so when the new Hyundai pick-ups arrive in 2010, that may make the Hyundai/Nissan race much closer, who knows.
And then, of course, Toyota , makes a lot of money off Tacoma sales, so that would be one more area where Hyundai could infringe. Anyone notice that the Entourage now has a $2500 cash rebate, even more than the $1500 on Siennas? I guess Entourage didn't debut to massive sales successes...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
read this... gives ya a good idea of where Hyundai is going.
Now, while my 04 gls v6 sonata is not lexus-like, it's far from junk, either.
Got it for Under 15K in Sept of 04, on sale.
Will I ever see a new V6 , by any maker, for less than 15 K again? Appears not, unless it's built in China, and sold here.
Now.... 2007... for 15-20K price ranges, I test drove Sebring( actually, if you can overlook some interior and exterior bits, it's not bad for the price), Altima(2 days ago) and some smaller cars, like the Focus and Elantra and Lancer ES(Not the manual, Not the 6 speed paddle shifter, the unexciting CVT ES, 10+ seconds to 60...).
The Altima was decent. Looks great on the exterior, acceptable interior(except why only 6 way ratchet adjuster, no sunroof, only 4 cylinder,and no telescopic steering, like Hyundai/Kia give ya on Sonata of same-OR WAAAY LESS-especially on sale-prices?)but nearly 22K? Even on a deal... around 21K?
I test drove the 99 Maxima,and it was a very good car. 23K msrp, 21K on sale. V6.
The salesman tried to tell me"this car is as fast"... LOL!
No, maybe with the more costly V6,what around 25K?
Dunno what he was on!
The Optima I drove last Summer Felt as fast(and even now, cost is less, and ya get telescopic steering column, 5 speed auto-manual, which Altima's shift yourself? Sound is LOUD, like you're killing the CVT. The V6 may be different, but th eI-4? Gimme a break, and my ears! It's good, quiet on D, but shift yourself, and the car sounds like it's in it's death throes, even at 35 MPG, "dropping down a gear/spot, being held on CVT".
Like I said, been around awhile, been driving 30 years.
To get anything like I had years ago, you almost gotta pay 25-30K, vs 15K a mere 13-15 years ago.
If Toyota can make BILLIONS in profits, maybe it's to to higher prices, also?
An oil change for our 05 Scion tC is 33 dollars, 29 cheapest place(with taxes) but I ain't driving 65 miles , vs 40, to save 3 dollars, lol( pay more in gas, time,etc).
Hyundai? 19 dollars(nearly 21 with taxes, for a V6, yet).
Where's the savings? At Hyundai!
I could go on and on about tune up savings, VS Toyota*(even for our Scion).
Our tC had the throttle body stuck shut... and if not for extended warranty... we'd ave paid over 1,000 dollars last month, at 74,000 miles,for this to be repaired.
We paid $200 (mainly for service/labor cost),
for a thermostat replacement on it, not covered under extended warranty.
Do I like the tC still? You bet!
Is Toyota bulletproof? No!
Is Hyundai? No!
SO, if things cost less at Hyundai, parts,labor,oil changes, and MSRP's( or real prices paid vs Toyota, similar vehicle vs similar vehicle), why is Toyota less to own?
(JD Powers survey? Anyone can lie on a survey).
My in-law had a 99 jeep grand cherokee laredo, at 107K, needed a new tranny in 05.
Yet, when his son came by last June for fathers day... he told him, when asked about the jeep" Great, no problems!" when he just shelled out over 3,500 8 months earlier for a new tranny, and was having abs issues, also.
I tell it like it is. My Sonata, after test driving these other cars, is excellent.
Even if MSRP is=, you get more. I'd have to pay thousands more at Nissan for similar items on a Sonata.
CVT? OK for V6,from what I have read, and most likely is really good,as this CVT is above avg, vs Caluber and Lancer ES, and the I-4 was acceptable, but not what one could call fast( it felt slower than my 4 speed automanual, V6 Sonata, o4, yet, and definitely slower).
If someone said" I'll buy you the I-4 Altima, with everything your Sonata has, and were willing to give it to me for free, and pay 25K, go ahead! I'd take it now(of course, at 25K< I'd suffer the 26-28MPG Azera, with 263HP,lol, over the Altima I-4, or maybe V6. I haven't tested the V6... nor would I , at the prices asked).
Do I like my car, better every test drive of other makers 07-08's!
Will I continue to buy Hyundai, or consider Kia? Maybe.
They are getting into thsi higher msrp deal, also, and playing games of" you want a sunroof, buy top model to begin with".
I believe all makers should have one model, mutliple packages( it's save consumers money, but the automakers might not sell as many top models,loaded with items not many really want or need,and means less cash..crooks, all of them.).
Civic is like this. Can get one for alittle over 15K with automatic. wants sunroof and cruise? Spend 4K More!
What! :surprise:
If you could get the base model, with sunroof and crusie, even at 1,500, that'd be udner 17,000 dollars. Instead, they gouge you to 19K, and aadd stuff I could acre less to(they ormove the option list, basically. you have no real choice, unless you buy a base model and do it yourself...which isn't my thing to do).
For 17K, I can get a leather lined Elantra, and only 2-3 MPG less than the Civic.
I can live with 34-37 MPG.
I can live with 2-3 K less( after sales,arguing, etc),50 dolalrs a month les sin payments( if I got the cloth, maybe 60-75 a month saved. Not a lot to some people,but almost enough to pay my electric bill in May, June and Sept Oct, definitely enough to pay for phone and internet).
How about that, phone, internet, and a Hyundai for same price as a Civic, every month!
Corolla does do ok, but, why bother with supposed 37MPG-38 ?
Maybe next generation, if MSRP's do not match civic Hybrid pricing(due to gas prices).
They are all decent cars. Just depends on what you want to pay each month, or if you have the cash, at one time/one payment. At 42,000 miles, I have spent only 230 dollars for maintainence(30K tune up) in nearly 3 years.
Less than tC tune-up, by over 100 dollars, and it is an I-4.
Resale is another issue, though.
If my main goal was a new car every 3 years, I'd avoid Hyundai/Kia,and a few others.
If it were 4-5 years of ownership, then a new car... I consider them. If I just want to "impress" someone... buy a used Jaguar, lol
take care/not offense.
Buy what you like, don't attack others for their choices, and everyone's happier that way.
Veracruz is all new, and will give the new Highlander a run for its money I am sure. That is a very hot segment. But you can't know anything about the sales record of Veracruz, because it hasn't been out long enough to know.
We will see how Hyundai does on the car front. Accent is a strong seller, Elantra and Sonata not so much (in Corolla/Camry terms). Accent and Rio combined outsell Yaris. Hyundai is aggressively copying Toyota, from business model to vehicle line-up. If labor troubles back in Korea don't get them, Toyota would be well advised to keep a close eye on them.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
How does that sound? You pay, I drive!
Free of charge.
Secondly, if I do not own a car, I don't comment on it, unless it's about styling(which anyone can do just by looking, no need to own a car just to comment on styling).
If I take a test drive, I can comment on that, but not long term ownership, unless I have owned a similar vehicle for years, by the same manufacturer.
And no car I have ever owned was 100% fault free.
I never went 100,000 miles without oil changes( I have heard some wild stories, like my cousin... guy changed oil but not filters... then had engine issues 50,000 miles...sludge).
Now guys, lemme say this, I am Not attacking or flaming anyone. Opinions are good. I just like opinions from owners, too, who have had vehicles for 3-5 years. I find those somewhat valuable, more so than JD Powers, even.
Now, I gotta go... have someone here to do work on my plumbing. Gotta watch 'em like a crooked mechanic
Take care/not offense.
1. Regardless of where I work, my Toyota bias is quite old and consistent.
2. Accent is a direct competitor to Yaris. Rio is not. I don't see the point in combining their numbers.
3. I don't know much about the Veracruz, and apparently, neither does the market, selling less than 1000 in it's first full month.
4. If Hyundai would really follow Toyota's model for success, they'd wait about ten years, get their brand image out of the gutter, fill out their lineup, and start a seperate channel. I don't see them doing any of that. They come across as impatient, almost desperate, to force a new image onto a public that isn't ready for it.
Patience is a virtue. Toyota has it. Hyundai doesn't. That's the critical difference.
Rover
I'd SHOCKED if sales this year fell below 10% increase levels, with the Prius flying off the lots at a record pace, and Tundra looking at 50% sales increase, and Sequioa/Highlander getting redesigns for the second half of the year. :shades:
Toyota is playing it safe (publicly), while stepping on the throttle. Playing politics as well, as everyone else is hurting.
What do you expect them to say? Sales will be up 10% forever? Better to play the under.
I'd bet the over.
DrFill
I am sure Toyota would greatly love to see Hyundai "wait ten years."
From your comments, I don't think you know much about Korean companies and how they differ from Japanese companies. There is a different mind-set.
Through April, I only see 6% increase over 2006 YTD for the Tundra. Are you counting only one month increase? Their big selling Sienna is off by 13% so far this year. The RAV4 & Prius may be their brightest stars in the Toyota crown. The biggest surprise to me is the Corolla holding off the new model Civic so well. If they ugly up the Corolla as they did the Camry they may lose sales.
And combining the two different companies kinda defeats the purposes of having two different companies, and taking them both seriously, right? :confuse:
I thought this was Toyota vs. Hyundai, not Toyota against Hyundai + anybody you can get a hold of.
DrFill
Toyota dealers are just getting up to full inventory now, and sales have increased the last 2 months.
DrFill
Tundra: I would love to see them put out 150K this year, as that would allay some fears about the safety and wisdom of the huge investment in San Antonio. But this is the earliest and the LARGEST that Toyota has ever put cash incentives on a new model. And anything over 150K this year would surprise me A LOT.
Rio and Accent: as far as I know, they are twins under the skin, with only some suspension tweaks and a different body shape to distinguish them. They probably come off the same assembly line, they are so similar - someone can check me on that. Together their sales exceed those of the Yaris. However, throw in the xA for Toyota, and now it is back in the lead by a hair's breadth. But of course the old, low-priced and gas-saving xA is gone, with just a few '06s left in the pipeline to sell before the new $15K model with a 10% drop in fuel economy arrives in August. ;-)
Oh, one last note on Hyun/Kia - all the profits go to the same place, as Hyundai took over Kia and folded much of it into its own operations. It's one company with two brand names.
I think Toyota's prediction of a 1.6% increase in sales this year may be slightly conservative, but I highly doubt it will be double digits. The market as a whole is stagnating, even slumping a little. Sequoia is going to be another gas guzzler, and won't even be a POPULAR gas guzzler as Tahoe/Suburban own that segment for the most part. The Highlander will hold its own, I am sure, but will it reach 200K per year? I kinda doubt it.
gagrice: "If they ugly up the Corolla as they did the Camry they may lose sales"
You just stated my biggest fear out loud. If they are smart they will keep the redesign conservative - that is what is expected of the Corolla. And I hope they focus on fuel economy gains rather than speed gains, in this atmosphere of high gas prices.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Just as you consider Kia and Hyundai one and the same, Lexus/Scion/Toyota sales combined should show at or near a 10% increase, as they have for the first 1/3 of the year.
Regarding the Tundra, if they get 15k a month for the rest of the year, which is no stretch from what we've seen the last two months, they will be well over 150k. Toyota wants 200k, which is out of reach, so I'll split the difference.
Sequioa sales are falling fast, so a redesign will produce a spike, for how long is the question. I think 50k a year is where it will settle at.
The only reason the incentives are there for Tundra is because full-size truckers have gotten them for the last 5 years. This is a domestic market, and Toyota wants the truck on the street, so word of mouth can carry them forward, so.....I think Toyota can afford a little seed money, don't you think?
The domestics can't lose sales fast enough, and they are going somewhere.
Hyundai and Nissan aren't picking them up.
Camry is doing GREAT after it's redesign, and Corolla will always be a seller, so if you are expecting a slump, you might want to have a seat.
DrFill
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Daily_Auto_News/Toyota_Says_Growth_is_- Slowing.S173.A12321.html