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Comments
Incorrect on the second part
I don't know much about the Veracruz, and apparently, neither does the market, selling less than 1000 in it's first full month.
Most dealers did not have enough units to sell
with the Prius flying off the lots at a record pace, and Tundra looking at 50% sales increase, and Sequioa/Highlander getting redesigns for the second half of the year.
Yeah the incentives help too on both the Prius and Tundra. Toyota started slapping on the discounts even before the Tundra came out!!!
If Hyundai would really follow Toyota's model for success, they'd wait about ten years, get their brand image out of the gutter, fill out their lineup, and start a seperate channel. I don't see them doing any of that. They come across as impatient, almost desperate, to force a new image onto a public that isn't ready for it.
Patience is a virtue. Toyota has it. Hyundai doesn't. That's the critical difference.
Except that's exactly what Hyundai is doing. And they're doing it faster and better than Toyota. Remember the bad times at Toyota land, and how long it took to come out. Now measure how far Hyundai has come along since they came to the US some 20 years ago.
Tundra incentives are about half that of the domestics, and Ford/Dodge sales are still falling. Getting $5-7k off a Ram or F-150 is no great accomplishment. $2-2500 is more realistic on a Tundra.
Show me one example of Hyundai showing patience. You mention faster, which contradicts your statement right there. :confuse:
Hyundai has done nothing, especially in marketing or brand building, better than Toyota.
DrFill
Toyota admitted they messed up on the allocations of Tundra trims.
I never said Hyundai was showing patience. You were talking about how Hyundai should wait ten years, to which I responded. Hyundai is a threat to Toyota, and the company isn't going to just sit around and wait another 10 years (for what?), neither will Toyota in response.
In the volatile auto market, you have to keep moving and improve, and that's what Hyundai is doing.
The world's sixth-largest automaker does not show patience in building its business. It is drive, drive, drive, all the time. Win at any cost."
Hyundai: The George Steinbrenner Of Autos (Forbes)
For me, also.... the Accent SE is sharp looking, but Too Small!
On the expressways... that 13.5 foot long thing would be about as safe(feeling, to me) as a slow golf cart!
It says SE... make it sporty(and larger, at least yaris sedan sized, over 14 ft in length...about compact sized, not golf cart sized).
They should get serious, make this thing 14 foot long...do something to add 160 HP to it, maybe also add a 5 speed automatic, ... and there ya go, a decent, sporty(maybe even 33-35MPG) small car, that most adults would feel safe to drive on the interstates in!
If Scion can give us the tC, 174 inches in total length(14.5 feet, compact car).... 17K+....
160HP, 2.4 L I-4 with 32-34MPG... why can't Hyundai do the same( drop the tibby...replace it with the CRX-looking Accent SE in size and HP).
I dunno.
I like the tC,I like Hyundai, but Hyundai is decontenting on interior... like the Elantra I test drove. No more 8 way seats( 6 way seat is ok...but not as nice as the 8 way, believe me), slightly cheaper materials than the 06 model(last gen), and feels slower than the 98 I drove, and the 01 model.
And prices, everyone's a crook now, IMHO.
They are all making profits...so why be too greedy?
Sell me a car at 18K that could be sold for 16,500(or less), and they'd still make money.
On last bit of ranting....
corolla, next gen, supposedly getting CVT...why?
I do not see an increase in MPG, or enough of one to justify a golf car feeling and 0-60 times, for(supposedly) 1-2mpg more than a regular automatic.
In fact, I heard automakers build em to save money(but do they LOWER mprp's? I don't see it happening...)and they are more times, than not, slower!
Raise prices, save the manufacturer money= why bother?
nottrying to be a jerk, just asking a few serious questions.
If you're looking for a Hyundai hatch that's 14 feet long and with more power than the Accent, maybe the new Elantra hatch/wagon due in early 2008 will fit your needs. It's about 14 feet long.
In 1990, this would have been called a compact(or maybe even just 2-3 years ago?).
Now they're sub-compacts?
As for the 5 door Hyundai.. if it's anything like that i30...not my style( volvo tail lights..).
If it looked similar, but updated, version of their old GT Elantra, yeah,I would like one..but it appears Hyundai is doing "different" styling than before.
Who knows?
As far as Scion...not sure about future tC. heard 3 rumors:
1) tC will continue on, new styling.
2) tC will be gone, to be replaced by the xR. a 4 door rally inspired car(see intellichoice.com future cars, 09...)
3) Both models will be out in 09, new...a 5 door and 3 door tC, both sporty.
I'd prefer #3!
A 5 door for "family" driving(lol), and 3 door for spouse/work car.
Hyundai needs the Veloster, but fix the back end to look more normal, and make it large enough no to terrify most of the people who might test drive it(to to sheer small-nessin size).
hey, here's a puzzler: why are the 4 door and hatch Accent's different sizes?
Used to be both cars were same size, except one had a trunk, one a hatch.
Most hatchbacks are shorter than their sedan variants. Wagons are typically as long or longer than the sedan version. The previous Accent hatch (and Elantra hatch) were exceptions. But it appears the Elantra wagon coming here (which is not the i30 but more a wagon style) is about the same length as the sedan (and longer than the hatchback, or i30).
Still trying to figure out how this relates to whether Toyota is fearing Hyundai...
For me, I think CVTs are an appropriate compromise. And I love flooring a CVT. Reminds me of sitting in the back of one of American Airlines Super 80s (or really, any Boeing 717, DC-9, etc.) during take-off. You just nail the throttle and the engines roar!
~alpha
Sell me a car at 18K that could be sold for 16,500(or less), and they'd still make money.
That makes you a Communist, Harry.
Anyhow, maybe it's a visual thing( like me seeing a HUMMER crushing me in an accident in the hatch?
Anyhow... I dunno.
I give it until 2010-2012, when Yaris will be 18-20K, ya know?
A Sonata will start at 20K, and end up 30K.
A decent version 25-27K(today's Azera pricing).
Unless sales really start to hurt, then we may return, briefly, to the 5,000+ dollar cash back, like our GLS V6 04 Sonata.... 21K msrp, got it for 14,995.
Anyhow... take care/not offense.
Then come up with a marketing/sales strategy that includes a new marque to build.
Don't be penny-wise, pound foolish. :sick:
Being market doormats 5 years ago, they need to build upon a good couple of years, and get their sales up to the next level. They sell too many vehicles, just redesigned, at a relatively low price, to sell less than 500k a year. That tells me a lot about what the market thinks.
They have a lot of potential, but you can only do this once (go upmarket), so you better do it right. They look ready to screw it up, which is fine with me.
DrFill
Renault on a Roll in Russia
This should be their next goal( maybe mid-sized truck?).
So, they want a V8, RWD, luxury car next year(genesis), but not any type of trucks for 3-5-8 years? :confuse:
Also, we have Nissan, Honda Coupes ( Altima and Accord) coming out....where's Hyundai's Sonata Coupe?
Where's the hybrids, or diesels for USA?
I have mixed feelings about Hyundai. My car is ok. Better than some we have owned, or most, over 22+ years.
If the Sonata, for example, is on sale for 18-19K, for the GLS with sunroof, etc, V6, not a bad deal. 22K+?
Loses some appeal to me.
Of course,I feel this way about any car around 20K these days, no matter who makes it.
take care.not offense.
Scion tC. Perfect little car, good mpg, fairly entertaining, farily reliable(just get that extended warranty coverage
If they keep this in their line up, maybe both of us will have one each of the next generation.
If they build the rumored xR 4 door sporty car... will consider that, too.
Corolla, 09 model? Maybe. Depends on what it's like.
That's it.
If the tC disappears, and no 4-5 door sporty car Scion comes out... well, have to look again for something else.
I would not mind checking out a Saturn/Opel Astra 3 door ,maybe in a few years, and hope they bring over the 150HP diesel, or 170HP mild turbo version from Europe.
The 140HP version sounds 10-11 seconds to 60( kind of slow).
I might not mind a new car to replace Tibby, if it would be decent.
had an 01. Was decent until 103K when tranny was nearly dead, 3 years and 3 months after purchase.
Right outside of the 100K warranty, too
Or another 17K Sonata might be ok
Here in Japan there is a strong belief that Toyota receives "guidance" from Japanese Ministry of Industry not to let its market share go beyond 40% and crush some of the weaker players. Same way, I think Toyota has some internal target (upper limit) on how much market share they should have in North America (otherwise the political backlash would be enormous).
The reason Toyota can afford to ease back on the throttle and cruise is because of its tremendous cash flow. Currently Toyota is investing huge amounts in RD and new plants (I dont know how much money it has blown on hybrid technology, but the fact that Prius has been in the market for ten years now is an indication). So if the world-wide market starts stagnating, or even declining, Toyota simply needs to cut investments and coast along, while some other competitors implode.
So Toyota CAN afford to be patient...
Hahahaha! In the land of the blind, the 1-eyed man is king!
Yep, been there. (look at sales figures for 2004-5, which preceded their 7x24 program.)
... and get their sales up to the next level.
Yep, done that. They have risen quickly up the sales charts the past five years and are now mipping at Nissan's heels.
We all know the automotive industry is incredibly competitive, with a few large companies firmly entrenched. If you have studied business to any extent, you know that the way to grow share in such a market is not a slow-paced, "play it safe" approach. Moving slowly gives the larger, better-funded competitors like Toyota time to react.
Hyundai is working on both hybrids and diesels for the U.S. They have announced that the Accent/Rio hybrids will be here in a year or so, and that an Elantra diesel is coming. They have been working on hybrids for some time (I recall a Gen 2 Elantra hybrid prototype) and sell a lot of diesels in other countries. But consider that they are not really behind Toyota with diesels in the U.S., and everyone is behind Toyota when it comes to hybrids.
And of course Toyota will be at around 2.5 million this year.
Or are we talking globally here? What are Hyundai's global numbers?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Toyota, and its supporters and followers, look upon Hyundai as Microsoft looks upon Linux - a potential serious threat. But, Toyota should follow the lead of SAAB, Volvo, and VW - go upmarket. When I first bought SAABs and Volvos, neither were considered upmarket marques. Just "plain jane" and affordable, but safe and well-built and engineered cars. They were equal to or less than in price of your typical Chevy at the time. Perhaps this is exactly what Toyota should do, but then again they already have an upmarket marque.
The Chicken Tax has been a pretty tough barrier to entry too.
Kia is working on a place to roll their Mojave pickup truck off the line and using Hyundai's Alabama plant is not an option. Kia chose a rural Georgia location to build their first U.S. assembly plant...this was delayed by the Hyundai CEO scandal of 2006.
IIRC this did not involve the CEO of Kia but since big bro Hyundai owns 51% of them, stories like this affect them directly. The Mojave looked like a midsize truck in pictures. I am not convinced that Kia "needs" to sell a pickup in order to be more competitive but I'm not a truck enthusiast so I might be putting out "skewed" personal thoughts that corporate Kia would chew up and spit out faster than Gary Payton would pick Chauncey Billups' pocket and race to the other end for a layin and another Sonic's victory.
If the chicken tax is lifted and everyone is on the same page in the legislature about it some Hyundai/Kia pickups, even ones built in South Korea will probably be on their way over here.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Again I ask, why wait until 2015? Hyundai has been working on it then, it's working on it now, and will continue doing so in the future. You act like Hyundai is equliavent of Yugo, when they are on comparable, if not better, to the rest of the class.
I don't believe any of its current US lineup you can say below par...actually, just the reverse.
And regarding Veracruz, if you think I'm lying and just giving excuses, then feel free to head over to its thread and see for yourself not enough units to meet the demand, here I copied one from the crossver comparison forum:
"My experience was that it was almost impossible to find an SE AWD with leather let alone the color I wanted. And we were told that the Limited was almost non-existent in the US right now."
or this:
"I test drove a Veracruz Limited AWD last Saturday at my local dealer. They finally got 3 Limited AWD models in, but only one had the Ultimate package included, very odd. Any way, I waited about 6 weeks to finally test drive the limited AWD, so they are slowly making their way to dealerships."
I work directly with the dealers (almost all makers) but thought I would give you some perspective from the consumer's side.
"The Emerging Markets Century" profiles 25 companies that are either the leader in their industries or well on their way there. Among them, Hyundai, Lenovo, and Samsung are well known.
http://tinyurl.com/23xuo7
Second, Toyota has asked a one of their Japanese suppliers, who also sells to Hyundai, to terminate that relationship. This speaks for itself.
Third, Hyundai Group is on a course globally to sell nearly 4 million cars this year. A percentage of those sales would be Toyota sales. I am not here to question Toyota's present dominance, but Toyota was once where Hyundai was and actually Hyundai has reached sales and quality milestones even faster than Toyota did at this place in their history. Toyota is not worried but Toyota knows that Hyundai has figured out that 'quality' is the course to pursue and with the products that Hyundai is putting out, as quite a young player in this field, Toyota certainly has concerns.
Fourth: Consumer Reports recently rated the Santa Fe (very good) 2nd only to the Rav-4. Do most people realize how significant this is? Not that Consumer Reports said it but that a legitimate magazine rates the Koreans equal to most Japanese and ahead of many other players when the Koreans, with the Santa Fe are only in their 2nd generation with this vehicle. I wouldn't argue with this rating as the Santa Fe is a very decent machine and is certainly more than a contender.
If Toyota Tundra can succeed, with the same problem, why can't Hyundai, if they have demand for their not-inexpensive new product? :confuse:
Talk to the dealer, get a vehicle in transit, or order one. If the vehicle is that good, sales would not be in the hundreds.
That excuse is not good enough. I feel like I've said this before......
DrFill
Hyundai is synonymous with "low rent" or "cheap", and that will change, but will not change overnight, regardless of what vehicles Hyundai decides to build.
If they think they are sitting in a different boat than VW is, than they don't do very good market analysis, which is why they have secured 3rd-tier status.
They've been here 20 years, and they've been market bottoms for 15 of them, at least. :sick:
Their time may come, but now is not their time.
DrFill
You are correct, it did not change overnight. It took nearly 20 years. But it's changed. When an automaker can get over $30k for a near-luxury sedan or a mid-sized SUV, and have those vehicles compared favorably to luxury brands like Lexus, it's not in the "low rent" or "cheap" category any more. Except in the (closed) minds of some people.
Not only the reporters but many, many of us on the net have shouted out praise for these South Korean cars for years and many people at our jobsites and friends and family are waking up and smelling the fine SK coffee, yet you continue to try and smoothcover over Toyota as inevitably invincible and "everyone's perennial favorite for all time" or something like that in the automotive design and build world.
That's simply not true and most all of us know it. To call Hyundai/Kia third tier is talking with your head firmly planted up your...umm...navel. Things have changed and those things occurred about seven or eight years ago. But the groundwork for these improvements started well before the late 90's.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
So I asked him how come he hadn't traded for a bigger newer Hyundai. You know what he said? "Oh yeah, my dealer would have loved that, he was offering me a bonus on my trade-in to buy another car from him, but now that I have more money I wanted to go with something better, so I bought a Toyota".
I am intrigued by this. IMO some Toyotas are a bit better than their Hyundai counterparts, especially among the cars, but probably not by a differential equal to the price jump from one to the other. This guy is a young guy; the Accent was his first new car. So he's not old enough to have fallen into a groove or a brand loyalty.
I think that deservedly or not Toyota can probably cruise on this aspect of its rep ("more refined, "more reliable", whatever, this guy said both as if he were quoting some magazine article somewhere) for a few more years, but unless it works harder on keeping the product superior than it has worked so far this decade, it will find itself backsliding in the market, and it can't afford that. All automakers face VERY tough times ahead in the U.S.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I mean, I was close to buying a 2006 Scion xA and I love the Scion tC as well. I was eyeing a 2007 Toyota Yaris for a long time and thought I might buy one of those. So I am by no means down on Toyota. One strong appeal to buy a Scion or Toyota is their tremendous hold of resale value.
But for drfill to just bury common sense and insist that Hyundai/Kia is a third tier automaker(like say...Yugo)is not only goofy but it's not true.
All you have to do is pay minimal attention to the automags now and even JD Power and Consumer Reports to find glowing reports for initial quality and new car reviews right out of the block. Things are changing and as was said earlier some readers don't have the ability to separate fluff from substance and it can influence their buying decision.
I don't own Hyundai or Kia stock nor am I an employee of either. In fact I am now a proud owner of my first Japanese rig, a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. But I would definitely buy a South Korean vehicle again in the future. I kept the Sportage 4X4 for nearly 6 years but looked for a replacement for a long time. Thing is I was not unhappy with my Sportage and that SUV will make someone a great rig for a lot more mileage and time. I was just ready for something different and Mitsu made the change easy when they finally released more pictures of this beautiful new world order Lancer.
If Kia would have made a knockout sporty 4-door in time our purchase would likely have been another Kia but Mitsu beat them to the punch.
Now the new Kia Soul and C'eed and so forth are being developed and Kia will be keeping pace once again. The new Rio twins are great little cars but I decided that coming out of a small SUV we would be more comfortable transitioning down to a compact instead of a subcompact.
Auto times are going to be getting really interesting with some different-type-of-fit new cars coming out and yes, you're right, the competition is going to be getting even more fierce. It is going to be an eye-opener to see how Cerberus handles their Chrysler take over. I wonder what is going to become of the new Hornet minicar and how the Chinese carmaker building it will do with it...politically and build-quality-wise. To build it like Dodge needs it built will need some serious concentration employed...it is only one of the important rigs coming down the pike for Chrysler.
Over.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Or maybe he didn't even look at the Sonata (or Azera, which can be had for about the same price as a nicely-equipped Camry I4) and just went on what other people told him. It's his money.
This doesn't sound like a typical "young guy." I don't know too many young guys who would want to drive a Camry every day.
It does illustrate the temendous brand equity that Toyota has built up over the years--perhaps its most valuable corporate asset.
What percentage of the general public knows about the existence of the Veracruz, and the percentage on Tundra? How many ads have you seen on the Tundra the past few months?
Tundra's sales increase is due to year-over-year (YOY) comparison. It'd be NEWS if a brand new model didn't conquer last year's OLD model. Trust me, everyone expected Tundra to increase, it is a good truck, allocation issues or not.
I submit that being No.1 is a huge burden, and places a target squarely on their headquarters. Being No. 1 forces a manufacturer to take risky or expensive steps they wouldn't ordinarily take. Once a manufacturer becomes too large or too old, their corporate culture becomes hard to control. Their stock holders become more and more greedy, as do their top executives. It's time to start looking for signs of "No. 1 stress" in the new leader. I think they are already showing signs of it.
Never laugh at a hungry, ambitious car maker. Datsun, Toyota, and Honda were laughed at, and look at them now. That is surely an inspiration to Hyundai, whose cars are far better than the above cars were only 1 or 2 generaitons ago.
Toyota doesn't have any reason to panic ATM, but history tells them they must fear Hyundai. If they have not learned from history... well, you know the rest.
Edit: From another post, who has driven a Rav4? That's the roughest, noisiest vehicle I have driven in years. If Hyundai's offering is no better than the Rav4, they should quit and go home.
Believe what you want.
And what has he said for the past twenty years on Hyundai and Kia .... Generally, NOT RECOMMENDED as used cars.
Phil pretty much calls it as he sees it.
OK, I'll tell you what they say. Opinions are like noses, everyone has one. And this guy has firmly caught the AutoBias virus. When people like him have the means to publish and some clueless...umm...I...I mean some people actually look to his opinion for advice or guidance, real world order automakers have another hurdle to have to jump to gain credibility.
I know from personal experience that Kia makes a good and dependable car and they are improving every year. Hyundai scores even better and they have no doubt helped Kia with duo-utilizationary techniques with parts and platforms.
But my two Kia's were built before the buyout of Kia by Hyundai and I speak highly of them both. Even the beleagured 1999 Sephia that I took my Edmunds nickname from. I was blessed to have two great Kia dealers to work with but the pickups that needed done were not big deals nor were they costly nor big time-grabbers.
In short, I become more and more impressed by Kia and Hyundai both with each passing month. All it takes is some work looking up the manufacturers and studying the results of their manufacturing for a said period of time.
Hyundai/Kia will be leapfrogging Nissan for worldwide spot #5 well before their stated accomplishment goal for this of the year 2010. The top students in the world are from South Korea and this means oodles and scaboodles of math/engineering students graduate yearly. Do ya think some of these dudes and dudettes might just go to work for Kia and Hyundai and practice making great cars for them?
Kia has been at it since the 40's. The Sportage is used by the South Korean military so I don't think they would accept shodddy workmanship for their military use. Regardless of what people think these people are serious car builders and they are building a solid product with great value up-front and an unbeatable Long-Haul Warranty to go along with it.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I think you meant DCX, not Nissan. It's farther down on the list.
As of 2005, Hyundai holds the sixth spot in the world behind GM, Toyota, Ford, VW, DCX. 2006 figures should be released soon and there shouldn't be any significant movement.
2007, however, could see some tides changing, with Chrysler being sold, perhaps Hyundai could jump ahead and claim the 5th spot in the world, we'll see. GM/Toyota is another interesting front to watch.
Toyotas/Honda: Top of the food chain
Nissan: Get what is left
Hyundai: After you couldn't get one of the aforementioned. :P
My point seems to have been lost in all of this.
Hyundai may very well make great automobiles, as good as Toyota or Honda.
GM is in virtually the same situation! They've won a few awards in the last 3-4 years themselves. :surprise:
My entire point is market image/perception. GM and Hyundai are still near the bottom. If you don't want to believe that, that's fine, but I talk to car buyers everyday. Not Hyundai friends of mine, but people who drive Ford, Toyota, GM, you name it.
As GM is finding out, if you have been building junk, for any extended period of time, as both GM and Hyundai have done, it takes about 10 years for you to change that image. It an unwritten law. I didn't write it. Hyundai was dog food in 2002. Look it up.
People who think Hyundai can now just start competing with Lexus because they feel like it need to look at the graves of better funded, more capable companies who have tried to climb Mount Lexus, and failed.
Excuse me if I don't bat an eyelash at Hyundai's aspirations, but I think their timing, and their level of ambition is a joke.
They could hurt Acura, Infiniti, Audi. But not Lexus. Not even close at this point. :sick:
The only thing that could slow down Lexus (they can't be stopped), is Lexus. What Hyundai does, or doesn't do, has ZERO EFFECT ON LEXUS. None.
Hyundai can make a run, but you only get one shot to build a credible high-end lineup, and this isn't the time, nor the plan, that will get them much above Chrysler status.
Being successful in America is more than just building a really good car. It marketing, word of mouth, consistency, investment, and timing.
Hyundai is telling me they still have some foundation to lay. If they don't want to lay it properly, that's fine with me. :confuse:
I see a deck of cards, some see a Taj Mahal....
To make it in America, it's gotta be more than just the car. It's about trust. That's the critical difference. I don't trust Hyundai with $30-40k. Call me crazy.
DrFill
Hyundai would give up 3 sales in Katmando to sell one car here in America.
Audi, Hyundai, even GM, can sell all the vehicles they can elsewhere.
Nothing like hitting a homer in Yankee Stadium. Ask Toyota. Or Lexus.
That's just the way it is.
Some things will never change.
That's just the way it is.
DrFill
Yes, I think that pretty much sums up your take on the subject. Your opinion will never change, no matter what may happen in the future.
There was a company with a similar attitude not that long ago. Its attitude was that it was King of the Hill, Numero Uno, Untouchable, the Yankees of Autodom. There were noises being made from a couple of brash auto companies from Asia, but these companies certainly could not be threats to the Top Dog. These impetuous Asian companies offered small, thin, cramped cars; they had nothing close to the investment and dealer network that our #1 Company did. Sure, these little cars offered great fuel economy, but who cared? Gas was 29 cents a gallon, and that would never change.
As for sales in other countries... why would Hyundai give up its profitable sales in countries like the ROK, India, China, and across the European Union? India and China have the fastest-growing auto markets in the world. Looks like a good place for an auto company to invest. Except maybe not Toyota. It has a little problem, based on history and memories, selling cars in what will someday be the largest auto market in he world. Meanwhile, Hyundais are running all over Beijing and other cities in China. Money is money, whether it's dollars or yuan. Spends the same.
Would your opinion change if, say, you started selling Hyundais instead of Toyotas?
I agree with that. In about 3 years the stuff will hit the fan for Toyota. They have built less reliable cars for about 7 years now and the aura of reliability they gained during the 1990s will be wearing off. You can only go so long on past performance. Toyota has lived in the past for the last few years. High sales figures only mean perception. The young man buying the Camry when he made more money shows he did not do much research. He probably bought some rag like CR and believed the crap they write.
I have some distant relatives that came to visit. They have put 32,000 miles on a new Kia Sedona. They love it. That Kia van has a customer rating of 9.6 here on Edmunds. Check what the Sienna has. A low 8.8 rating from the folks that have gotten stuck with them. Toyota better wake up and smell the roses. Their lousy customer service and shoddy vehicles of late are about to kick them in the behind.
PS DrFill:
If I sold Toyota I would probably make up stories on how great they are also.
You seemed to have forgotten the bad times Toyota had in the US. By the way, I am still trying to put the pieces of your confusing rant.
Hyundai, dog food in 2002 - what?
The only thing that could slow down Lexus (they can't be stopped), is Lexus. What Hyundai does, or doesn't do, has ZERO EFFECT ON LEXUS. None.
Let's stop with the speculation until we have some factual evidence. I'd agree with you Lexus is slowing down, the GS is hitting a straight wall, the IS is somewhat lost in the shuffle of fantastic premium sports sedans (3er, C-Class, A4, CTS, TL, G35)
Again, what are you talking about? Run over? The top 4 automakers in the US are all in the top 5 in the world.
Nothing like hitting a homer in Yankee Stadium.
By an opponent.
It is the smug attitude that you run into at Toyota dealers that will bring them back to reality. Not all buyers are as uninformed as the young man mentioned earlier.