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Comments
Now they're gonna hit BMW, Lexus, Land Rover, after one good year?
People here are trying to turn Toyota into some also-ran, and I have proven them wrong.
Quality is Toyota's game. Hyundai is still learning how to play. This is chess, it ain't checkers. They don't plan to fail, but are failing to plan.
I don't hate Hyundai. I just pity the fool. :P
They seem desperate, and need to stop worrying about what BMW and Lexus are doing. They have to get their own ship in order, and start selling some cars. Their new lineup isn't exactly hittin' the spot (so say the buyers).
DrFill
Doesn't sound like a problem with the vehicle as much as the owner. For $2000?
Actually I'd be suspect of a 9 YO vehicle with only 83,000 miles on it. Sounds like the buyer was too.
I gotta agree with you there. Sure Hyundai is building good vehicles now, but one or two good years doesn't elevate a company into knighthood in my book.
Lets revisit this in 3-4 years and reavaluate. Shoot by then, Dodge might have had 2 good years and then folks will want to turn them into the Toyota slayer.
One thing: if "quality is Toyota's game" then why are they unwilling to stand behind their cars for 5 years, and their powertrains for 10? Such a statement as you have made begs the question, after all.
http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=996
Have a good one.
Like I always say, buy what ya like, not what someone tells ya to!
I may buy just buy a Versa SL CVT 5 door next purchase!
Why would that be? My wife bought her LS400 new in 1989 and it today is just under 90K miles. It was not cheap keeping it in top shape. Still better than most of the new stuff from Lexus. We shall see how many 2007 Lexi are still in like new condition in 2025. They do not build them like they used to.
That was more than the Toyota dealers wholesale price but 2 grand less than the book value.
My original point was that vehicles don't always fetch what they perhaps should. In my case the so-called good Toyota resale value was not there.
You, like many, maintain a solution convenient to your objective, but leaping to solutions without defining the problem often leads to the wrong solution.
Perhaps if the issue was explored further, the right answers might be forthcoming?
More questions should be asked perhaps?
(1) Why was trade-in value lower than expected?
Was it because the current glut of used cars has depressed prices (fact)?
Was it because the owner shopped at only one dealer (fact)? Was it because private sale is often better than trading in? (fact)?
Are we getting the whole story? (debateable)?
What would the trade-in value of a 9 year old competitive vehicle be--ie, a Ford Windstar, A Chrysler Town and Country, etc.?(fact).
(2) Why were costs of maintaining the 9 year old vehicle alledgedly higher?
Was it because parts and labor costs of most vehicles are far higher these days than in past generations (fact)?
What was the outcome of maintaining the vehicle well--it apparently was quite serviceable after 9 or 10 years? (fact)
Are we getting the full story (debateable)?
As you can see, arbitrarily pointing fingers can often be the wrong way to resolve differences.
Another example of how discussions like this one go south relates to your repeated claim that Toyota quality has dropped because of lower ratings in some reviews.
Should the question be put another way--"Has Toyota dropped, or have others gone up?" Truth be told, you will probably find the answer is that others have finally got the message that quality counts.
Toyotas quality, as I have shown, is outstanding, and Hyundai is still learning how to get it done. Give me five years of consistent ability, then give me a call.
Comparing Toyota to Hyundai is like comparing Reyes to Jeter. There is no comparison, at this point. :confuse:
DrFill
Your analogy for the second time is still poor. There is a clear difference between the two ball players. The quality difference between the two car makers is not so well defined. In fact it has to be taken one car at a time. I think that Hyundai is winning that race one car at a time.
You base your arguments on the number of vehicles sold. By that criteria GM in the US is far superior to Toyota. GM is still Number ONE in the USA by far. GM sells 7 full sized PU trucks to every Tundra sold. Following your line of argument that makes the GM PU trucks 7 times better than the Toyota Tundra. Of course I would agree with that.
Even when it was shown that Hyundai passed Toyota in the IQS that you posted, you refer back to numbers sold. You some how equate units sold with quality. I look at Edmund's reviews by owners of any vehicle I think about buying. I would give those reviews more weight than JDP or CR with their no-name statistics.
Lastly,
If Toyota is doing so well? Why are they laying off workers in plants like Princeton Indiana? Is their a chink in the almighty Toyota armor?
PS
Happy Memorial Day to all you stay at home folks.
My car is only 1 year old, and I won't be buying another for 9 years. So the quality of Hyundai, Toyota, and the rest are irrelevant to me at this time. I will re-evaluate in 8 years, and make my choice. I have no idea what the choices will look like in 8 years, and don't really care at this time.
Meanwhile, I just don't care which car is "best". If you're researching to buy a new car, I suggest you don't listen to brand loyalists. Drive the cars, listen to unbiased owners, and ignore the glowing reviews. Consider the VALUE above all else, no matter whether you spend $15K or $60K.
It's amusing to listen to those who speak in absolutes. They believe their favorite car is better than other cars in every way. Well, that's an immature way to look at things. Every car has several good points that should be acknowledged. But some people are so biased and so brand-loyal that they pretend they don't exist. They even try to spin such tangibles as large discounts and a 10 year warranty into negatives. That's pretty amusing, but some buyers are actually swayed by the arguments.
When we make a major purchase like a car, we should always place a high premium on VALUE. The Hyundai buyer should, as should the Toyota or BMW buyer, for that matter. When you bought your Camry, you really wanted BMW 5 series, right? But looking at the quality, features, and price, you couldn't justify it. But wait! If you throw out the irrelevant badge mystique and look at the cars objectively, you must consider the NF Sonata.
Toyota quality, to be frank, sucks. They know it; they paid a quality cost to increase production and gain the worldwide "#1" title, which was worthwhile propaganda.
If Toyota's quality is so outstanding, then it costs them exactly NOTHING to extend their warranty to the level of Hyundai's, and then start drawing away their buyers, further increasing Toyota's sales. They have not done so because they know it would cost significantly more than zero, as their cars would NOT hold up that long anymore.
Toyota not competing was just a dumb thing to say Fill. If they don't compete, then their sales will just go away to other manufacturers that DO compete. Oh, what a feeling....to know that a manufacturer cares so little about it's customers that it's not willing to fight to keep them.
Excellent advice--as far as it goes. I would hasten to add a bit more to the "listen to unbiased owners, and ignore the glowing reviews"
Consider adding this to your advice..."IGNORE THE ANTI AUTOMAKER HYPERBOLE".
As to "value"--you're absolutley right, but don't forget that oftentimes, value exists in the eye of the beholder.
Something else you said resonates...."It's amusing to listen to those who speak in absolutes".
How true.
Wow. Visit these boards long enough and you'll see as many Toyota bashers as Hyundai bashers.
Just plain silliness "Toyota quality sucks". Why does Toyota offend you so much to utter this nonsense?
Hey, a new twist on the McDonald's argument. Haven't heard that one before (billions served right? :shades: ).
Sometimes a $5 pair of fake Birkies and a Big Mac just hits the spot.
Toyota has always paid out the least percentage of its auto revenue for warranty claims. Trying to correlate the warranty claims with the quality survey results of JD Power is a bit dicey, but some have tried. (Warrantyweek.com)
Maybe the cheapo sandals, I never let a Big Mac touch my lips. Remember the High Fructose Corn Syrup they use. I still like a nice Ribeye on occasion.
I do like MCD stock. Pays good dividends.
But you got my drift. :shades:
Your comments herein seem characterised by what appears to be a decidedly anti Toyota bias, and I have yet to see any objectivity in what you advocate.
Is this what you consider "balancing out the scales?"
If so, I would respectfully ask where is any "balance" needed in these discussions?
From what I perceive herein, it seems the pros and cons of both sides of the discussion are about equal--as it should be.
So if it ain't broke, why try to fix it?
Have a great Memorial Day!!!
I didn't buy a Sienna in '99 when we got our Nissan because we thought it was a bit too plush for our needs and it was a bit pricey. We tried to buy a base Odyssey but the dealer was exceptional (exceptional jerks
We've been real happy with the Quest but that doesn't mean I'm not going to cross shop all of them next time.
I don't think Toyota's quality is terrible. It could be better, but it's no worse than the other makers at present. Just because we like a certain car does not mean that the rest are unworthy. I own a Sonata, but it's not like I chose it over a Camry by a wide margin. There are things to like about every car in this segment.
Back on topic, I know that Toyota fears Hyundai. I read remarks from a Toyota executive that said so.
I maintained it like all others before it, by the book. Oil/filter changed by a Toyota dealer at the recommended intervals, etc. etc...... Just another a - b, fairly reliable, relatively safe, comfortable mode of transport.
That's all I can say. I didn't expect any more nor less of it. It did what it was intended to do, did it well enough. That was my experience.
When people ask me what I think of a particular auto, I now say "look around, don't get caught up with brand names, do some research, don't just take your neigbours advice, test drive til it hurts, take all opinions with a grain of salt, buy what suits you, have some fun".
Should Toyota fear Hyundai? I hope so. Hyundai/Kia build well engineered quality vehicles and they'll take their market share. That's positive for all of us.
Back to work!
But the flurry of so much competition, even from my current fave Mitsubishi and their resergence is going to make things tough on Toyota and their goal to stay number one.
But their quality has taken a hit of late and if you disagree then you're not doing your reading and research. It's a well-known fact now without even having to mention Toyota engine sludge.
A person needs to do their homework and study up for a long time IMO and test drive liberally, but, the news of late regarding Toyota is not glowing and altogether positive.
I'm happy to have gone to a Mitsu and if not a Mitsu I would've bought from favorite Kia or Hyundai. Both of those Korean automakers and Mitsubishi are working hard to not only stay in the game but move upwards. If you're not moving upwards where are you going?
Toyota is at the top but IMO they're not moving correctly to stay up there at this time. Why might I say that? From recent research that tells me that they're leaning on their past and their stock price and a particular American car maker did the same type of thing, only about 25 years ago-look what has happened to them.
Only now I think the downward movement can happen faster with all of the comptetion-even from newly merged carmaker entities.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I drive a Nissan truck currently. Hyundai doesn't market the type of vehicle I wanted/needed (at least not for North America), otherwise I may have been interested in the Santa Fe. The Veracruz(sp?) looks promising.
I now have serious doubts regarding Toyota's quality. With all their recent recalls and such, perhaps they've become too big for their britches.
I've already decided I am not willing to pay that premium. I've owned 3 Toyotas--2 Corollas and a Celica--and they were all pretty reliable except the first Corolla, which had four significant problems in its first 3 years. But I've also owned two Hyundais and they were just as reliable as the Toyotas, if not more so. And they cost $4-5000 less than a comparable Toyota. So Toyota would need to make a pretty great or unique car--the Prius is one--for me to consider buying it instead of a better-value alternative like a Hyundai or Kia.
I don't think Toyota quality is terrible either. I don't like Toyota corporate or their dealers as a whole. In 1964 when I bought my first Toyota I would not have considered a GM product. I disliked the way they did business. For me they changed and were much easier to deal with by the late 1980s and through the 1990s. In 1988 when I bought my first new GM product I was fed up with Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Subaru. I considered all the new Japanese vehicles I owned as sub standard. The only exception was a 1970 Datsun PU, a dandy little truck. I look at Toyota today the way I saw GM in the 1950s & 60s. A ruthless corporation with no redeeming values.
Consistency, awards, titles, market image, sales, the whole package.
I am a Mets fan, so i know EXACTLY how great Reyes is, and I KNOW he has a long way to go to be Derek Jeter, as much as I dislike this fact.
Anyone, without bias, looking at the two companies, will not see very much worth comparing.
Hyundai can have a nice year or two (Not that it's having a good sales year, or last year), but only Toyota can be Toyota, grow their business, almost exponentially, while covering quality, award after award. :shades:
This is clearly over Hyundai's head.
DrFill
I beg to differ. :surprise:
Toyota certainly isn't losing any business to Hyundai, if you've seen the sales numbers.
Toyota runs with the big dogs, Mercedes in luxury, and GM worldwide. It would kinda be like racing for pink slips vs. playing pick-up sticks for spare change. Toyota has real business to attend to.
Hyundai needs to sit at the kiddie table with Mazda and Subaru, and if they're really good, give Nissan some headaches.
They only headaches I see are their days supply for all of these super, just-redesigned vehicles they don't sell
(sales are down this year).
How about getting over 500k for the year, before we put you on Legends Field. :confuse:
DrFill
From Lexus LS, to Camry, to Rav4, to Lexus RX, to Prius, to Tundra, Toyota can, and does, make some of the best vehicles over the past 20 years.
Innovative, powerful, well-thought out. And the market react to them.
After they create the market.
Hyundai can't even see the targets Toyota has already hit dead bullseye!
Hyundai has the resume of a AAA call-up. Toyota is the NY Yankees. And they're playing like the Red Sox.
DrFill
Think of it this way: Hyundai steals...say, 25k sales. As you said, kiddie numbers. Except Mazda steals 35k...then Subaru steals another 25k...then Nissan manages to come up with 75k of sales that would have otherwise went to Toyota (Probably trucks; theirs are better anyway). Honda grins and takes another 50k. Small numbers individually, but added together, it's over 200k in sales. That's real money. That's also real business...if real business is ignoring a bunch of competitors simply because individually they don't amount to much, then you took VERY different business classes from the ones I took.
As for Toyota not losing business to Hyundai, obviously they are. Right here on this board is an account of a customer Toyota lost to Hyundai. Toyota lost many of my friends and associates to other manufacturers, Hyundai included. If your attitude is typical of Toyota management, then Toyota is headed for as bad a wakeup call as GM had. Of course, that may not be a bad thing.
One more thing: I won't be buying a RAV4; I'll take a Sportage instead. Longer warranty, more features for the same price or less...and the company is hungry and looking to grow and EARN my money rather than expecting it because they're #1.
The Sportage you'll be buying has intelligent body design going for it, too. The Honda CRV and the Toyota RAV4 are lacking in that category and it ain't even close.
Kia or Hyundai or Mitsubishi are better choices in SUV's and cars and Warranty's. Remember, Mitsubishi also offers the 10 year, 100,000 mile Warranty because Finbarr O'Neill went from Hyundai to Mitsubishi to be CEO and took the great Warranty with him.
Who knows where Finbarr O'Neill is now BTW?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Funny you say that considering the Tucson is one of the poorest selling Hyundais out there. Nobody's buying 'em bro. Even the much ballyhooed Sonata has been selling only 10,000 units a month. Ouch.
Like the "critically acclaimed" TV series that gets yanked after one season.
Probably has to do with the aweful 'styling' of Hyundai vehicles. Good mechanicals but somewhat of an eyesore lineup.
I see quite a few of the things around here. More Kia than Hyundai, but the Kia dealer is more convenient around here anyway.
Didn't we just go through that in the 70's or something and the companies that made smaller cars ended up doing well? Yeah, I think there was some company called Toyota that did that...and now they're supersizing their "compact" SUV.
Anyway, people are going to go back to "smaller is better" again with the gas prices and all...that's why we now have cars like the SX4, Versa, and Fit. Toyota's only entry is the Yaris, which CONSUMER REPORTS didn't even like (and they like ANYTHING with a Toyota badge on it). The Scions all up-sized for the most part too. So I think Sportage sales will pick up, along with Chevy's upcoming small SUV (to slot in below the Equinox).
Toyota certainly isn't losing any business to Hyundai, if you've seen the sales numbers.
Yeah everything to you is sales numbers. Is Toyota losing business to Hyundai? Cover your ears, YES!!
Hyundai needs to sit at the kiddie table with Mazda and Subaru, and if they're really good, give Nissan some headaches.
Since you are such a numbers guy, check the Mazda and Subaru numbers vs. Hyundai. Try again please.
They only headaches I see are their days supply for all of these super, just-redesigned vehicles they don't sell
(sales are down this year).
May 1, 2007 Inventory:
1. BMW- 26 days
2. Toyota- 44 days
3. Honda- 51 days
4. Hyundai- 55 days
Average Inventory: 63 days
Doesn't look to me Hyundai couldn't sell. What's happening with Hyundai's decline is mostly supply issues. Yeah, you might have heard the strikes and scandal which greatly affected production. Demands for small Hyundai cars, especially, are hot, but units are far from meeting them. Also, the Sonata year-over-year (YOY) comparisons are skewed because Hyundai introduced its purposeful fleet program last year, which ran through November of last year. Unfortunately, on a YOY comparison basis, sales would be down all year. Of course, there are many good high points in Hyundai's lineup (i.e. Santa Fe, Azera). It has been a tough 2007 for most automakers in the US, even Toyota has lost grounds in sales last month.
By the way, have you driven a Hyundai vehicle, EVER?
The Tucson has been selling okay but definitely needs a refresh. I think some of the potential sales very well could have gone to the success of the Santa Fe.
As for the Sonata - 10k/month is actually a good chunk of increase over the past generation (keep in mind the past generation Sonata averaged less than that).
The biggest obstacle Hyundai faces is its image. The problem is still, a good amount of consumers wouldn't even consider a Hyundai. What they don't realize Hyundai products are just as good the rest of the competitions out there, no matter what some here and others trying to pull, or tell you otherwise. As long as Hyundai CONTINUES to make quality and reliable vehicles, as they do now, they will be fine!!
What part of this don't you get? My respect for Hyundai would come from......it's advertising......it's sales.....it's image.....
Hyundai has an all-new lineup! Outside of the Tuscon, Entourage, Accent, Elantra, Sonata, Santa Fe, Veracruz, all new, and sales are down.
Already know image is down, and the ads speak for themselves..... :lemon:
Buick actually has a MUCH better history of quality awards, and consistency.
I consider Buick a better threat. Gm is on the comeback. I am impressed by what they are doing, for the most part.
And for those of you keeping score at home:
Jeep 2006YTD: 144k
Jeep 2007YTD: 159K (+11%)
Mazda 2006YTD: 89K
Mazda 2007TYD: 100k (+10%)
Hyundai 2006YTD: 147k
Hyundai 2007YTD: 143k (-4%)
When should I start handing out merit badges and stuff. This looks like a company that needs more support than I can give it.
DrFill
Remember when Toyota had a spate of recalls last year? "The problems got so bad that, in July, Toyota ceo Katsuaki Watanabe felt obliged to bow deeply in apology." (Business Week)
I can't seem to find any links where Bill Ford or Bob Lutz apologized for quality issues - taking responsibility would seem to be a redeeming value, even for a corporate face.
Hyundai's Chairman is trying to redeem himself a billion ways. :shades: (Inside Line)
These lofty expectations for Hyundai/Kia are not working out so well. Turns out they were not much to worry about. Sure every competitor should be watched, but if Toyota is worried about another auto maker, it's Honda or maybe Nissan. Hyundai/Kia have a long long way to go.
I doubt I'll be surprised. Typical of what has been sent over the past week. :sick:
Substantiating such a claim seems to be above and beyond current forum members.
Too weak a claim for me to even bother to parry.
DrFill
I don't see how that can be overlooked. Yeah, they're still selling them, but, and it is a big Butt, Americans are buying cars they don't really have passion for because some dork writing for a car magazine told them it was the "safe" car to buy.
Or an uninspired family member tipped them off that Toyota is tops in everything everywhere. Dumb decisions made in balking form just "because".
I choose to buy and chose to buy in March a car that I love and a car that will hold up for me. It is backed by a large Warranty but that's not the reason I bought it. I bought it because I get the same feelings looking at and driving my '08 Mitsu Lancer GTS that I got when I bought my first car at age 18. That car was a '65 Ford Mustang. I loved that car but my new car is one that I feel even closer to even though I've only owned it for two months.
Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Nissan, et all...don't produce that feeling for me. I could've faked that feeling and bought that '06 Scion xA in 5-speed form or that 2007 Toyota Yaris in 5-speeds and bright red metallic paint. But I didn't...I waited for something with some more character and more excitement.
Toyota reaches and tries but falls short for me. Average American consumer may find what they need in a new Toyota but are they getting what they need and what they want, too? They're buying them but I don't agree that they're getting satisfaction from them. I am pulling for GM or someone else to grab the number 1 worldwide spot. Toyota needs more...is that new Supra gonna come out for a look-see? That would be some progress from the utilitarian to the sporty "must-have" quality Toyota is sorely lacking.
Now, with quality suffering, where's their beef? Eh?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
When a group was shown the [Veracruz] without any identifying logos on it, 71% said they'd buy it. Once the Hyundai logo went on, however, that dropped to 52%. In the same research, a Toyota logo lifts intent-to-purchase by more than 20%.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_21/b4035069.htm
Look for the new ad campaign next month.
If you bought Sonata or Elantra ten years ago, you would have to give a long explanations to practically everybody in the family, work and neighborhood. Today it is not necessary, not at all unles you live in a million-dollar neighborhood. Many might still not agree with your choice (how many people would not touch Toyota, Chevy, or Ford?), but you would not need to explain yourself. That is worth a lot.
With progress of their quality and name recognition they are scheduled to arrive at the major brand party pretty soon. They are Toyota of 1980 or perhaps even 1985. Only a fool would think they're not a threat.
2018 430i Gran Coupe