Toyota Fearing Hyundai?

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  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Now what's all this about how I used to be on your side?

    Um... take a look at your handle.

    As for the previous-generation Accent, Elantra, and Sonata being "crapmobiles"... and you are accusing DrFill of having pretty strong opinions?? FWIW, that crapmobile Gen 3 Elantra was an Edmunds.com Most Wanted car two years in a row (as in, Not the Corolla). It also took 2nd place in a big comparo C/D did, in which the current Corolla was... well, it wasn't first. The Gen 2 Accent was no limosine but regularly beat out the ECHO in comparos. And the Gen 3 Sonata? It debuted in 1998 for gosh sakes. Not a bad car for the late '90s, especially since they could be had for $13k or so.

    So it's not just Hyundai's current lineup that has proven to be competitive with Toyota's. That trend started 7-8 years ago, when Hyundai's quality initiative started. Look at the strides they've made in that short time. The question is: can they keep up that progress?

    And here's a thought about the slow sales of the Azera and your concerns over Hyundai selling many of their new Genesis cars: what if selling those cars in volume is not the idea? What if the goal, for the near term, is to elevate Hyundai's brand image with more expensive vehicles, so buyers stop viewing Hyundai as only a bargain-basement for cheap (read "lower quality than Toyota or Honda") vehicles?
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Not to poke holes in too many bad arguments, but this site, this very site we are on, has call the following vehicles best in class, thru comparison tests:

    Toyota Tundra
    Toyota Tacoma
    Toyota Camry
    Toyota FJ Cruiser
    Toyota Avalon
    Toyota Prius
    Toyota Rav4 (beat Santa Fe, lost to CX-7)

    That's half Toyotas line-up! :shades:

    When has Hyundai been the best at.....anything? :confuse:

    DrFill
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Kind of interesting how you think patience is a good thing for Toyota, but because Hyundai only quintupled its U.S. sales in eight years' time, and because it went from dead last in quality (per JD Powers) to even with Honda and Toyota in ten years, that's a problem--it's not growing fast enough, it's not improving fast enough. Sales have flattened in the past 18 months! Oh no, all of Hyundai's gains in the past few years have been for naught!

    What I see here more than anything is another Toyota sales rep desperate to hang on to Toyota's image of superiority over the likes of Hyundai. No wonder. If more people disccover the truth about how little difference there is between Toyotas and Hyundais, it will be impossible to maintain Toyota's price advantage without losing a lot of sales. Then Toyota really will need to fear Hyundai.

    Hey, a question for you: if Hyundai can crank out nine new models plus refresh the Tiburon in 30 months, why has it taken so long for Toyota to come out with a new Corolla, which is now one of the worst cars in its class?

    And... how can the RAV4 be "best in class" when it lost to a Mazda????
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I have not checked recently, but the Azera has mostly been a very slow seller, and now they propose to launch a model well above it. If it has the Hyundai badge I think that will be its kiss of death, much the way the Subaru badge was for $30K cars and SUVs (and there's a small-volume carmaker with 35 years in the U.S. market, and even they couldn't make the upmarket move happen), and the VW badge was for $40K cars and SUVs (ditto). Hyundai may wind up being its own worst enemy at this rate.

    The Azera has been selling at a modest pace. The issue being this is an unknown model, unlike others (i.e. Sonata, Elantra), with equities built over the years. The car itself actually has done surprisingly well in many categories vs. the rest of the class.

    Hyundai has said the demographic of the Azera buyers, with almost 90% having purchased the Limited trim model, and most opted for the Ultimate package, with MSRP for north of $30K. This is a good indication consumers are ready for a $30K+ Hyundai. As they say, if the product is good, consumers will come.

    The new luxury RWD sedan will start under $30K, as publicized. And just to get everyone up-to-date, the car will rival 7er in size, 5er and other luxury midsize as general competing vehicles, and 3er in price (actually sub-3er in price) - excuse my BMW analogy :) Bottom line, this is not another $60K+ VW Phaeton, which I've seen many comparisons being made in the early stage, and flawed at best.

    Meanwhile, Hyun/Kia should learn to pace itself.

    I don't believe Hyundai is moving too fast. Its to-do items right now include quality and branding (first and foremost), among others. Many here have argued they shouldn't move upmarket so fast, but then I wondered how would they have fared if they would have continued to stay in the mainstream line: producing quality vehicles but what consumers perceive as basement portfolio - it's not going to take them any farther than its current approach. Kudos for its decision to take some risks, to take some chances, and not fearing change. By moving upmarket, as well as sustaining the mainstream line with new and improved products, it's blessing in the sky, actually, as long as Hyundai can do both.

    I just don't think staying put and operate at snail's pace would be any more beneficial than going upmarket and improving its current lineup. Something tells me it will take the Sonata many many years to enjoy the bulk success like the Camry has, despite being a great family sedan as well. If Hyundai can do both (going upmarket and maintaining current lineup), I'd say, why not!! They've done a great job so far - the near-production of the RWD luxury sedan was much publicized - many would not believe, had I told you the number of inquires on this upcoming vehicle from our clients; I would imagine that number increased by folds at Hyundai. FWIW, that a start, a great start, as a matter of fact.
  • harrycheztharrychezt Member Posts: 405
    http://www.roadfly.com/cars/first-drives/renewed-assault---hyundai-azera-declares-war-on-the-near-premium-segment.html

    This said 30-40,000 units per year is their sales goal, and , iirc, they will hit 30K plus this year.
    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/05/18/048291.html
    If sales keep up as-is, they will be in the 33-35,000 sold range, more than the old XG's ever sold).

    Sales figures out Friday, we shall see if this is a fluke, or not, for Azera sales.

    My main gripe about Hyundai is MSRP. Got my GLS V6 for 15K(a few dollars less, really) on sale. Today? Maybe 18-19K, on sale. In less than 3 years.
    New 08 figures show a top model Sonata for Over 24,000(nearly 25K) MSRP.
    Even Kia is starting to become irritating, to me. Last Summer, when the 2006.5 Optima came out(as I stated before), I could get the mid level model for 18,999 on sale, loaded. Nothing else was needed( probably could have saved more... if I were buying then).

    Now what did they do for 2007? They eliminated the base model, and only have 2 models. The "base" model now? It is not costly, but you can Not get it with sunroof... you must buy the top model now(forgot if EX or LX.. think EX?)!
    The same model (last year) that was mid-level is now base, and you can't get a "cheap" Optima anymore(under 19K, with I-4)... loaded up.
    Try 20,500 or so!
    Big jump from 18,999 on sale, to 20,599(on sale)Honda does same thing on Civic,but even worse, as they give you NO Options... you take it as-is, or leave the lot.
    Adds more $$$ in their pockets, by giving you less, to no choices.
    Sorry to digress.

    I'll buy a Suzuki or Nissan next time!
    take care/not offense.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Oh boy, I'm getting myself in deep! :-P

    The Gen 3 Sonata WAS a bad car for the late 90s, but you are right, at $13K a lot of the objections might suddenly sail right out the window. That's just not my particular set of priorities, and everyone will have their own.

    The last-gen Accent was a rattly little affair with shift gates about a yard wide, uncomfortable seats, below-par fuel economy and emissions, and on and on it went. Of the three, perhaps in only the case of the Elantra the term "crapmobile" is harsh, it was an OK car, but it was outclassed by every other new car I drove in its class (tested it twice, plus had one as a rental for a few days). Those models included the Focus, Civic, Corolla, and Cobalt. Again, it was very inexpensive, and clearly built to last, so it had its merits. But in my own personal opinion, which applies to me only, none of those models were up to par.

    Now you have intrigued me with this idea of "perhaps Hyundai doesn't WANT to sell a lot of Azeras and Genesis cars". Really? OK, if that's the case then they still face the peril of Phaetoning (VW's botched move up) or Tribecaing and LL Beaning (Subie's models that were priced to "move the brand upscale" which sat on lots forever and a day and prompted early and soon model updates/price reductions) themselves. Halo models are great, but they do have to sell to someone and not just point out that no-one will cross a predefined price threshold to buy brand X cars.

    And so far I don't see Azera providing too much of a halo for Hyundai, if that is indeed its purpose. I think very few people even know who makes an Azera outside these boards, or could identify it as a Hyundai if one drove past in the street.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    When has Hyundai been the best at.....anything?

    Do you ever take the time and do some research before posting? Oh I forgot, only on Toyotas.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    My bombastic, one-sided, strong opinions were just as "intolerable" before my new position!

    Thanks for keeping your sense of humor in here. :D

    Nippononly's upscale Subaru point hit home with me - I like the idea of a good bang for the buck wagon to take to the mountains. Paying over $30k for it doesn't excite me. Forget Tribecas, Outbacks are pushing that bang for buck envelope for me as it is. I'm used to buying big ol' minivans in the low $20's.

    Maybe Hyundai is getting a bit stretched or scattered trying to compete head on with Lexus and MB in North America instead of just chasing after the Camcord buyer?
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Certainly the first time I am hearing the Sonata EF was a BAD car (and in caps too). Please elaborate.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Oh geez, elaborate on my personal opinion of the car? I only responded to backy's question because calling the Elantra a crapmobile was unfairly harsh. Mediocre would have been a better choice. More to the point, my opinion or anyone's opinion of an individual model won't make that much difference in this discussion, which is about the fates of two carmakers selling over half a million a year worldwide (and in Toyota's case, 18 times that many).

    In 2000, driving the Sonata made me long for a rental-grade Malibu, a hard thing to make me do. Back then, the Camry and the Accord were both a world ahead. Now, Camry is not, although it is ahead by a tick in my book (and costs more than a "tick" extra). Meanwhile, the now-old Accord is still a half step ahead, but there is no comparison on price - the Sonata has a huge advantage over the Accord in that area.

    Meanwhile, the so-called "professionals" are just beginning to NOT say the Hyundai is best ONLY on price. Those kinds of reviews are only just emerging though, so in a few years the huge improvements Hyundai has obviously made in its vehicles could bear a lot of fruit.

    Meanwhile, what of Kia in all of this? Why the wide quality and reliability disparity between Kia and Hyundai? Does it matter that Kia seems to trail Hyundai by a fairly wide margin in many respects? Could Kia hold Hyundai back in its race to join the Big 6?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • harrycheztharrychezt Member Posts: 405
    http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/mostwanted/2007/index.html
    Sedan under 30K, Editors Most Wanted.... Azera(above 25K-below 30K MSRP).
    Under 15K? Accent/Rio
    Wagon under 15K, Rio.
    http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/dc2007/
    Kia/Hyundai top pick minivans for 07(NOTE: Kia built this minivan waaaaaay before Hyundai had it... the one Hyundai has, the Entourage? It's from Kia.
    http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/feb2006/bw20060208_647410.htm ....Seems only a few changes made by Hyundai when they got it from Kia! I think this also mentions hard road for Hyundai on this article? But, it does say Big 3 and Japanese makers are looking over their shoulders at Kia/Hyundai!)
    http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/dc2006/02.shtml
    Sonata top pick for family sedan.

    take care/not offense.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    Not to poke holes in too many bad arguments, but this site, this very site we are on, has call the following vehicles best in class, thru comparison tests: Toyota Tundra

    Do you mean the very same Tundra that is having problems with camshaft breakage in the some of the new V8s?

    Tundra engine failures

    Sorry, couldn't resist. ;)
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Meanwhile, Hyun/Kia should learn to pace itself.

    Here we go again, spinning a positive into a negative!

    How does having better quality and better cars later rather than sooner help the consumer?

    I bought my Hyundai for several reasons. Among the most important were, they showed a very strong determination and commitment to compete directly with the best, and PROMPTLY. Not next decade, but now. Looking at all they were doing in engineering, manufacturing, and marketing, I knew they were for real. I knew they wanted to compete with the leaders so badly, that they would stand behind their product. I was right.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Thanks for keeping your sense of humor in here.

    Thank you for having a very good sense about what is an angry argument, and what is a good-natured but spirited debate. I'm getting way more grins lately on this forum!
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    I have been reading this thread for some time now, and thought I would put in my two cents. Much has been said by a few that Hyundai is not ready, should pace itself, be patient and it "may" be ready in 5-10 years to make itself a 1st tier automaker. If this was the 70's or 80's, I might agree with those posters. However, those attitudes/beliefs ignore the fast changing market conditions that all manufacturers, not only automakers, have to deal with now. Like it or not, it is an age of fast change and rapid movement. Hyundai, like all automakers, has the ability to move fast, improve quickly, and bring new and improved product to market much faster than was possible only 10-20 years ago. The advent of advanced CAD/CAM manufacturing, advanced robotics, powerful computing advances, etc, allows for the virtual building and testing of vehicles before they are actually built and vastly superior build qualities when they are built. This is the advantage that Hyundai has over what Toyota and Honda had when they started their ascent in the US market. Add in the Internet, forums like this one, and other methods of communicating to their customers (like the 500+ channels of cable we were promised!) and that 5-10 year time frame advocated by a few here rapidly and realistically shrinks to only a few years! Like I said, my two cents. ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think you raise an excellent point, about Hyundai's pricing. They have increased prices significantly over the past couple of years, as they rolled out their new lineup. While that is painful for those of us who remember the stellar bargains of just a few years ago (e.g. Sonatas for $13k, fully loaded Elantra GTs for the same), I think it is a necessary step for Hyundai to take. I have followed the Hyundai-related discussions here for about seven years. I have seen many opinions to the effect, "Hyundai needs to raise its prices to remain competitive long-term." Now that they have done that, I don't hear that complaint anymore. ;) What we hear now is, "Hyundai's prices are higher and they are putting too much focus on selling more expensive vehicles." So they can't do anything right, can they? :surprise: If you compare real-world pricing, you'll see that Hyundai still enjoys a large pricing discount compared to comparable Toyotas. The difference from a few years ago is, Hyundai's vehicles are fully competitive with Toyota's offerings. As long as Hyundai can maintain a significant pricing advantage (not huge, but enough for people to appreciate, e.g. at least $1000 per car) over Toyota, the long warranty, and the solid quality and reliability, I think they will do fine--once they fix their brand image. And they are working on that right now.
  • petrol_headpetrol_head Member Posts: 5
    Thanks for your reply; only one excellent point? :cry::)

    To be honest, with regards to my comments on the corporate culture of Hyundai AG, some of my evidence is anecdotal (through business associates, though rumor has it not everything can be read in articles :) ). But take for example the refusal by Hyundai executives for exchanged factory access. (http://paultan.org/archives/2005/09/20/hyundai-rejects-toyota-offer/)

    Hyundai's executives, until the recent arrest of the chairman, believed they were answerable to no-one. Anyone who has lived and worked in South Korea will tell you that collusion and bullying feature highly on the list of Chaebol, along with non-explanatory promotions (exactly the sort of thing Paul Wolferwitz has had to resign for). I hate to say it but Wiki has a good article on the basics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaebol) for those that do not know. Things are changing, but not fast enough and are ceratinly at best cosmetic for the moment. My Korean friend bemoans massive import tarriffs (mainly a result of Hyundai's pressure on the government and one of the crucial points of contention during the US FTA talks) that force them to drive Korean, she asks a valid question "if they claim to make vehicles of a world standard, why do they handicap the opposition?" As well as potentially losing market share in its home market (mainly to Daewoo, but others if the FTA deal holds), Hyundai is losing ground in other major countries, where a real choice exists (as I already pointed out Hyundai has fallen 30% in the Chinese market and slipped out the top 10 for April). In fact from an analyst point of view, the US market is where Hyundai is/can be most competitive overseas.

    I know many will not understand but Hyundai learnt a lot in terms of product from their long standing technical partnership with Mitsubishi. Evidence of this can still be seen; the flagship Hyundai (the Equus) uses a Mitsubishi design 4.5l V8 (still a decent engine considering it was limited by the "gentlemen's agreement" and features an advanced aluminium block with GDI). Of course they claim they benchmark this or that during development, and I was not questioning this approach (especially as it is a fundamental of the industry), I imagine many of their development team have their head on straight (thier recent NA product is proof of that), but when it comes to leadership and overall philosophy, the company is seriously deficient. Five straight quarters of profit drop and slowing/stagnant global sales are a testament to this.
    (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=aPrR6TF.rt_s&refer=asia)

    I am not saying that this slide is irreversible, just that many are ignoring the most recent facts and figures available (perhaps including Hyundai?), whilst touting Hyundai as some Toyota slaying late comer after providing acceptable product (in some markets) for a comparatively short space of time. They are far from being globally attractive; I could walk into a UK Hyundai dealership and get pretty much a brand new (100miles) top of the range Sonata with at least 6500 dollars off the list price (and main dealerships are as expensive as they get; we are talking near 30-40% depreciation after driving off the lot). Drive it next to any of its competitors (such as the Toyota Avensis) and it quickly becomes apparent why it is so undesirable. Meanwhile Kia hope to break the most competitive segment with the Ceed and, whilst it has been generally accepted by the press, is not scheduled to be in full capacity until 2010; by that time some of its major competitors would have been revised/redesigned and I cannot see it competing very successfully then (even with a nip tuck).

    Another point is that I know the Avensis is assembled in the UK, which makes a difference to a considerable number of people. I would not underestimate this effect in the NA market where Toyota volume units (such as the Camry and new Tundra) are close (est. 70% of all parts) to being fully built in the US. Do not mistake this for the current Hyundai pratice in NA of assembly of the Sonata (i.e less than 30% locally produced parts). Toyota has emphasised it wants to one day have all its cars sold in NA built in NA (with the exception of luxury item Lexus) and it is a matter of calculated expansion and plant assembly (but are correctly taking their time in a bid to maintain quality). If Hyundai plan to do the same, they better get a move on.

    As an answer to your final question; Hyundai set to benefit greatly from the global engine agreement by spreading costs and was a natural evolution of their previous partnership with Mitsubishi. Whilst it is true Toyota started making noises when affiliated parts suppliers were talking Hyundai, this is largely understandable as many of these companies would have dissolved had it not been for Toyota leadership (especially after the decline/rough spot of the Japanese car industry in the 80s). One more thing, please do not tell me that you don't know the most advanced transmission currently in use by Hyundai (the 6-speed in the Vera Cruz) is supplied by Aisin, a Toyota parts subsidiary; if Toyota really wanted, it could have stopped the deal.

    P.s. I would happily discuss product in greater depth but feel this thread does not warrant it and I have tried to maintain a larger picture; maybe we should start one titled "which auto make provides the best NA line up?" In that case Hyundai would fair much better in my eyes.
  • nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    I also believe some of their price hikes are due to their new labor agreement with their union!!!
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    I would take issue with nippononly with his statement that "the previous generation Elantra was a crapmobile." I've previously owned Honda, Mazda, Nissan, SAAB, Toyota, and Volvo automobiles - none of which are known for mediocrity. And, currently also own a very recently purchased Toyota.

    I purchased a 2006 Elantra GLS in December 2005 after direct driving comparisons between the previous generation Civic and the current generation Corolla. The Elantra won the comparison on all counts. Money was not a factor, as I was prepared to pay cash for any new car - which I always do.

    After a year and a half of service, the Elantra has had no warranty issues, unlike all of the Japanese cars I've owned over the same time period. My last Honda Civic (2001) had 4 significant warranty issues within the first year, including replacing the Engine Management Computer, steering rack, water pump, and driver's seat mounting rails.

    One really shouldn't classify vehicles without personal experience with them. As one who has owned primarily imported/non-domestic vehicles since 1968, I have a pretty good eye for overall quality, especially build quality. This Elantra doesn't take a back seat to the other competitive vehicles at the time of purchase, as I went over it with a fine tooth comb with a very critical eye as to fit and finish prior to making the final decision.

    I'm not a "Hyundai lover," only a person who's objective and pragmatic when it comes to vehicle purchases. My most recent purchase is a 2007 Toyota Camry LE I4 automatic (two weeks ago), which unfortunately is currently in the shop undergoing transmission replacement. I had hoped this "known problem" was corrected before I purchased the Camry, but evidently not. That's exactly why I waited prior to the purchase.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, and also the recent appreciation of the won vs. the dollar. And much of the real-world price increase has been due to a decrease in incentives, e.g. only $2000 max now on the Sonata vs. $3000 last year, and a widespread elimination of loyalty rebates.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The statement about the Gen 2 Accent being a "crapmobile" is more understandable given the cars he compared it to: all were compacts, one class up from the Accent: Focus, Civic, Corolla, Cobalt. Of course they seemed much nicer. The cars in the same class as the Accent at that time were the ECHO, Rio, Lanos, and later the Aveo. The Gen 2 Accent compared well against those cars, especially those designed as the same time as the Gen 2 Accent.

    I too compared the Gen 3 Elantra to the compacts of its day and found it to be more to my liking than any of them, even cars like the Civic and Corolla that cost thousands more. So did folks like edmunds.com and C/D. :) So it's not just my solitary opinion.

    I am such a Hyundai lover that I own a couple of Mazdas now (in addition to my '04 Hyundai). :surprise:
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The general consenus agreed the EF Sonata was an above average to a good car. Saying it was a bad car might be a bit too strong.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Why did your Camry require transmission replacement? If you were wary of the Camry based on the "known problem", what were the factors that drove your purchase - this field is awash with extremely good competitors across the board, such as the extremely attractively dealer incentivized Accord and the very impressive new Altima.

    And yea, Toyota will probably need to watch for Hyundai - in this month's MOTOR TREND.... The Veracruz bested the RX350 in a comparo. (I did not spoil the article results, FYI, as this info is presented in big bold letters on the cover). The comparo clearly indicates that the RX350 is generally superior (except for the 5A lacking the 6th gear and dynamics limited by overly intrusive VSC), but the Veracruz offers most of the good at a %20 discount (actually, a bit less than that, given the 2K NAV/stereo upgrade of the RX).

    OTOH, the Elantra posts a poor showing in a comparo of similar vehicles, and MT claims the redesign isn't up to Hyundai's recent standards, repeatedly pointing out an unimpressive structure rigidity factor that plays into ride and handling.

    ~alpha
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    It sounds like nippononly's Hyundai experience came mostly before the wave of refreshes and redesigns (2001 Elantra, 2002 Sonata, 2003 Tiburon, 2003 Accent) that significantly improved the existing Hyundai lineup.
  • driver56driver56 Member Posts: 408
    Gee, that's a good sign. Transmission replacement at 2 weeks? Phil Edmondston ain't surprised. Where's the quality?
    I just hope that's not your only mode of transport w9cw.
    I know it's only one vehicle, but, that is not a good sign.
    Oh, by the way Drfill, the last comparison test that I read by Edmunds regarding Tacoma vs. Frontier, the Frontier came out on top. Best in class??? Nonsense. More smoke and mirrors.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Another (short) Hyundai pricing blurb in the news:

    Stickers are up — and down (Inside Line)

    Over in Toyota's world, Toyota tops in N. American plant efficiency. (Yahoo)

    Good stuff in here this morning - y'all should be getting consulting fees. ;)
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    Alpha and driver - of course I knew of the previous issues with the Camry, as I monitor most endemic forums here on Edmunds.com, but given the timeframe of the purchase, I had hoped they had sorted out the problems - it appeared that this was the case. We had previously rented I4 Camry LE automatic's for two long (over 1,000 miles each) business trips without this problem raising its ugly head. With each rental, my wife and I were pleased with the comfort and ride quality, plus the fuel economy - never less than 34MPG on the highway. Unfortunately, I guess I have "the luck of the Irish."

    The major problem is substantial shift flare within a week after purchase, primarily between 2nd and 3rd, and 3rd and 4th gears. Dealer reflashed the EEPROM, with no improvement. After a series of 4 trips to the dealer, they decided to replace the transmission.

    No, it's not my only vehicle. Still have the 2006 Elantra, a SAAB, and a Volvo, so it's a major nuisance to be sure, and I'm not a happy camper with this. And, why did I buy the Camry as compared to an Accord, Sonata, Fusion, Milan, etc. - it was my wife's decision, as she will be the primary driver. My college-age daughter drives the 2006 Elantra. I preferred the Accord or Sonata.

    I'm not going to bash Toyota or bad mouth their products on Edmunds.com, but it certainly goes to show you that their quality is not what it used to be. The Toyota faithful, on the other hand, seem to love to bash other products, especially DrFill. I've owned 5 Toyota products over the past 25 years, this will be my last.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Not quite sure where you saw the Elantra's "poor showing" in a comparo of similar vehicles. In C/D's comparo of the Corolla, Elantra, Civic, Mazda3s, and Rabbit 5-door, the Elantra bested the Toyota (relative to this discussion) but was behind the others, which were all higher priced than the Elantra. MT actually rated the Elantra pretty high in their COTY review (note the "star" ratings), e.g. it ranked above the Rabbit and Sentra.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Throughout my entire post, I'm talking about the newest issue of Motor Trend, and I even state:

    OTOH, the Elantra posts a poor showing in a comparo of similar vehicles, and MT claims the redesign isn't up to Hyundai's recent standards, repeatedly pointing out an unimpressive structure rigidity factor that plays into ride and handling.

    My apologies if this was not made contextually clear enough.

    Also, I didn't want to be a spoiler of the article, so I didn't go into further details. But this month's MT comparo placed the Elantra SE last of the 3 it competed against, and the text made it sound like the Elantra was a notch below those vehicles in overall execution - Civic LX, Sentra 2.0S, and Lancer GTS (that was the only example they got their hands on, I think they should have waited for a more standard issue ES version and delayed the article). Ideally, I think a Mazda 3i should have been included as well, since it is generally highly regarded in the class. No '08 Focus was available, the Corolla was deemed too near replacement, and the Cobalt was just excluded based on the fact that it wasn't worth comparing.

    ~alpha
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    the Cobalt was just excluded based on the fact that it wasn't worth comparing.

    Would you mind please going to the GM on the Offensive thread and telling 1487 that? :)
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Wasn't me, it was MT....

    :)

    ~alpha
  • driver56driver56 Member Posts: 408
    I owned a Sienna for 9 years, no major issues. I never had to deal with the infamous sludge issue at least. According to one mechanic I talked to though (shortly before resale) there were signs of it. And the tranny held up well. We had a few electrical glitches , the master switch, plus 2 actuator breakdowns. Also a couple of brake issues, and the (common) sliding door malfunctions. All in all, the Van was quite reliable, but I had hoped for better. Of the 7 vehicles I've owned, that was my only Toyota. I can't say it will be my last. According to some in the know, Toyota isn't the gem it once was, and that is the impression I've been left with.

    Good luck with your Camry! At least it's under warranty.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Apology accepted. MT has written multiple things on the Elantra in the past few months; I had no idea you were talking about the current mag, which I haven't seen yet. It is very interesting though that MT's COTY reviewers put the Elantra SE clearly ahead of the Sentra 2.0S. That they rated the Elantra below the Civic is not surprising (they like how Hondas handle), nor is it surprising that they rated it below the loaded Lancer GTS (looks like another one of those comparos in which they really wanted a particular car to win).
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    some inside-track information on just what Hyundai has helped Kia with since their 1998 takeover. I mean, I remember back in 1998 reading that Hyundai would help Kia in this part-ownership deal, with manufacturing tips and such.

    Such insider information would have to come from a Kia worker or a Hyundai worker, IMO. Or a...gulp, manager!

    I agree, worker strife with the power of their unions has pushed up the price of Hyundai's of late. Probably little bro Kia as well.

    I don't know why we have to shy away from saying we like or even love a certain brand, either. My nickname is still seen as true in my eyes, although, I never said they were perfect. Let's not set the bar unreasonably high here. The Long-Haul Warranty is a sign of Kia and Hyundai strength, not weakness. Seriously-think about it some before you knock it-it was and still is a shrewd business move by Hyundai/Kia.

    Sometimes it comes down to just a few items about a car that sway you to that car...although with the new Lancer GTS it is many things that swayed me. A Long Warranty doesn't hurt, either. Tell ya what, I'm gona post any and every thing that might or may or actually does go wrong with my '08 Lancer GTS by Mitsubishi, so it will be known.

    This is my first Japanese rig and I am going over everything with it like my two Kia's previous. Not a single thing wrong or remotely upsetting so far.

    You guys with problems in the past with your Toyota's are bringing the thought to the forefront...a leading carmaker like Toyota ought-not to be letting you guys down like that. What would be worse would be if the Toyota tops aren't covering you and replacing those items breaking down.

    That's part of why I speak highly of Kia-they fixed the things that did go wrong-for free, if applicable. And why should I expect them to fix replace or repair if it wasn't an applicable item. Point is, they were fair to deal with.

    I am not so sure about everybody's carmaking leader taking sweet care of their customers, going by reports on Edmunds and elsewhere. Just a thought.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • driver56driver56 Member Posts: 408
    Unfortunately, for me, I had to dig into my own pocket cause
    everything that broke, broke beyond the bumper to bumper.
    Fortunately, none of the costs were high. The master switch, being the most expensive, was around $500 parts and labor.
    I did drive it for almost 6 full years before anything did go kaput though.
    And the local Toy dealer was always accommodating and friendly.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Re: MT COTY -I see that the Sentra was rated a half star lower in the categories than the Elantra, but this may have had more to do with the trim level of the Sentra tested - at $20K, its not a stellar compact. At $18K, the picture may be different.

    That said, the text re: the Elantra in COTY issue isn't particularly flattering, either.

    In any case, in any article from this magazine (MOTOR TREND), I don't see - folding in with the title of this thread - the Elantra being cause for Toyota concern.

    Also, are you assuming the Lancer GTS won the article?

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Maybe you could clarify for us who won MT's comparison test. I was assuming you listed the cars in increasing order of finish, but maybe you can set us all straight and tell us if the Civic or Sentra out-pointed the other cars.

    Re the Sentra, I don't see anything in what they said in the COTY review that would be different on the 2.0S vs. the 2.0SL. The only things that might be affected in the star ratings are interior (nicer on the SL, but the nearly $3000-less Elantra still tied with the Sentra there), and value (which might affect the 3 stars the Sentra got vs. the Elantra's 4.5). The Elantra also bested the more espensive Sentra SL in engineering, design, and performance; they tied on the other categories not already mentioned (ease of use and safety). Come to think of it, the Sentra 2.0S might have received a lower score on ease of use than the SL, if the SL came with features like Bluetooth and IntelligentKey. So the fact that MT now rates the Sentra 2.0S over the Elantra SE is, well, mystifying. Especially with how they blasted the Sentra for its "wallowing." And they said of the Elantra, "Hyundai has taken a credible shot at the class-leading Honda [Civic] with a piece that offers much of its goodness for less money." They also praised its exterior styling, interior room, safety equipment, feature content, quietness/smoothness of the engine. They did say "it's a good handler, but not as confidence-inspiring as this year's Sentra or the reigning Civic." Which I'll bet is the reason the Elantra wound up behind those two cars in the overall rankings. Or did it????...
  • prosource1prosource1 Member Posts: 234
    I am looking very seriously at the Elantra SE or Limited. I'll have to drive all the competition before I buy. The Civic is too small as I have already been inside it. I do like the Elantra tho and am predisposed to buying it because of its interior room, overall value package and price. Love that price! $17k otd pretty much loaded!
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    If the answer was easy, why did you dodge the question?

    DrFill
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Because I've been accused from members here in the past of "spoiling" the issue, like if you read about a movie, including its ending, before getting a chance to see it.

    My original point which we have moved away from is that I think Hyundai poses a formidable threat, especially with models like the Veracruz which are garnering strong press accolades. That's where it starts - changing the perception. OTOH, in the very same issue, you have the Elantra placing last, so perhaps the assault isn't uniformly constructed just yet. Just food for thought regarding the Toyota & Hyundai threat topic....

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    We're not talking about summer blockbuster movies here.

    "Placing last" depends what the field is, doesn't it? It also depends on who is doing the comparintg and what their criteria are. That is why you see, for example, the Veracruz outranking a Lexus. If the Veracruz were compared by MT against the BMW 5 Series SUV, maybe the results would be different because I think the BMW has attributes more to MT's liking than the Lexus(or Veracruz). The Camry and Corolla are low-ranked by some automotive publications (e.g. the Camry was next-to-last in C/D's most recent comparo of family sedans, and the Corolla finished last in the latest comparo that included it), but that doesn't stop the Camry and Corolla from being huge successes in the marketplace. The Optima finished third in the same comparo (C/D family cars), and two Kias (Optima and Sedona) were MT COTY finalists; those positive reviews don't seem to have helped Kia all that much in the sales race.

    Mags like C/D and MT expect the cars they rank highly to have sports-car-like handling. Hyundai isn't aiming at that market--nor is Toyota.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Yea, I get that we're not talking summer blockbusters here, that was an anology. I was asked a question, and I'm telling you I have been blasted before for "spoiling" an issue. To me its not a big deal.

    If you're referring to C/D, both the Camry and Corolla were next to last. (The Corolla beat the Sentra).

    My point had nothing to do with C/D and MT and their preferences to sport. That preference is obvious and understood. My point was that it can potentially be a perception changing event when a widely circulated mag has as a front cover headline " COMPARO SHOCK HYUNDAI BEATS LEXUS". Toyota should indeed be on the lookout.

    However, I juxtaposed that against the fact that perhaps, based on an article in the same mag (which, when you finally read it, you'll see that it takes the opposite - and somewhat surprising approach - of emphasizing the attributes that commuters value, and not simply the sporting aspect)uniformity across the line is absent. That's not an unfair supposition, and it makes sense that an manufacturer's entrants in some marketspaces will be better than in others. That's all.

    *WARNING- COMPARO SPOILER

    Rankings -
    Civic LX 5A
    Sentra 2.0S CVT
    LANCER GTS CVT
    Elantra SE 4A

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Now you've really peaked my interest, with the comment that this MT comparo emphasizes attributes that commuters value--and the Civic, which has by far the least interior room, smallest trunk (I think), lowest feature content (or close to the Sentra depending on its options), and firmest/harshest ride, and probably also up there in noise, is first. At least I assume it's first, since you didn't put numbers on your list. I'll have to go out and get that mag this weekend and see how they justified putting the Civic first.
  • oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    It doesn't matter much who's on first just now.
    The challenge is to get to the top and stay there, and just "fearing" the other guy isn't going to meet that challenge.
    The business of making cars is changing dramatically as we speak, as a matter of fact, all MANUFACTURING in this country is undergoing change. Big time!!
    There are two kinds of automakers right now--those who are a-changing, and those who will change soon. God help any one of them who don't, or takes too long to do so!!
    I see two critical success factors:
    The first key attribute is to build cars that will meet customer needs--and that paradigm is quickly moving toward value, quality, fuel economy, reliability, practicality, and performance (not necessarily speed/handling BTW). The other main component of this attribute is cost of manufacturing--make no mistake about the "bottom line" having huge impact on where manufacturing occurs. (Pay attention all you trade unionists!!)
    The second attribute (and perhaps the most critical) is to consistently "walk the talk"--in other words, if the manufacturer promises anything, it must be able to consistently deliver on that promise.
    The second attribute applies to just about anyone in the business of making consumer products today--let alone automobiles.
    It will be interesting to see where the business of making cars AND all maufacturing shakes out--maybe in 4 or 5 years we'll get a glimpse of results.
    In the meantime, all these petty arguments about this manufacturer being better than that manufacturer are pretty much academic.
    I'm not a supporter of any one carmaker, but I do see companies like Toyota, Honda, and maybe GM as the front runners at this time. Hyundai could become one, but isn't there yet by any means.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Toyota's May U.S. Sales Jump 14 Percent (AP).

    Hyundai US May sales were up 3% - "best May sales in company history."

    GM was up 9.6%.

    Here's a link discussing international sales of the South Korean automakers. (The Hankyoreh). All good percentage numbers - GM Daewoo blew the doors off.
  • oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    Toyota's May U.S. Sales Jump 14 Percent (AP).

    In spite of what the naysayers are naysaying,or are trying hard to convince others of, Toyota does seem to have it more "together" than the other guys right now.
    No matter what anyone says, Toyota comes closer than all the others in hitting those critical success factors I mentioned above. How long this will continue? That's the big question, isn't it?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Good point about cost of manufacturing. Did you know that Hyundai's plant in Alabama is one of the most advanced and highly automated (using Hyundai robots) in the world? It allowed Hyundai to do what many thought impossible--launch two new vehicles (Sonata and Santa Fe), with new engines, in a new factory with a (mostly) new labor force, and do it with high quality from the start.

    Interesting quote, considering Hyundai never listens to anyone ;) :

    Kalson says that among his senior staff there are people who formerly worked at Nissan, Ford, DCX, and GM. "That's not coincidence," he said with a smile. When asked about what facilities they benchmarked, he cites facilities not only of those companies, but all of the usual suspects, too.

    http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/wip/0705wip03.html
  • petrol_headpetrol_head Member Posts: 5
    How some US factory workers reflect the view of corporate leadership is beyond me :mad: :) I think its pretty hard to hire anyone in North America experienced in vehicle production who has not worked for another auto make at some point in the past; what do you expect them to do? Employ a fresh graduate? ;)

    Anyway it looks like an impressive plant (but as said all of it has been done before), which reminds me, do you know any figures for Hyundai's NA efficiency? I cannot seem to find any. There was that recent study but it only mentions the largest companies.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Toyota will be forgiven and will come out of this unscathed, as long as there are no other major problems after this, but if the same situation had happened to a company like Hyundai, they'd be skewered," says Hossack."

    PickupTruck.com

    More opinions are up on the Straightline blog and Karl has a good summary of all the rollout problems.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    If the answer was easy, why did you dodge the question?

    You talking to me? What was the question? I was at meeting all day today making sure May figures closed correctly, similar to what the automakers did :)

    Please DO NOT start trouble again. We respect Toyota but they aren't GOD and you know it!! Actually, maybe not, you judgment is obviously clouded.
This discussion has been closed.

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