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Comments
There is some good entertainment value there.
Again, things just don't add up.
Someone has to represent the 5% minority
Like I said if Toyota is first to the dance with a small diesel PU I could join the wave. Hopefully by then they get their quality back under control. I don't see either Toyota or Hyundai in my future for a diesel SUV. Don't think they will have anything I like.
"A Toyota bashing stance is a pretty weak one".says another...........
Both right in some respects--exceptions as follows;
In representing the 5% minority if the case is largely overstated, facts are misrepresented, and unfounded claims are flaunted as gospel, the representative is doing a disservice.
Re Brand bashing, that profile is generally pretty obvious, and mostly a reflection of a manipulative and self serving agenda. The inherent weaknesses in those kinds of offerings is soon evident.
As regards this discussion, I've tried to look at both sides in a non partisan manner.
Some info posted has been quite informative and relevant. Some has not.
I leave discernment to the gallery of participants--I think most folks are wise enough to know the difference between credibility and old fashioned "blowin' smoke".
Both Toyota and Hyundai have strengths and weaknesses.
Both are keen players in the market place.
Toyota is clearly ahead at this point.
Hyundai, as I said earlier is a hungry Asian Tiger, and shows promise.
What the future portends is just wishful thinking, or speculation at the best of times.
Taking sides is a matter of personal preference.
Cynicism, "zings and arrows", imagery, and alarmist rhetoric serves no purpose in discussions like this one.
Buying cars has long been shown to be much more "emotional and impulsive" than "practical and objective".
The scope and diversity of opinions expressed herein certainly show that fact to be "factual".
The way things are going, this discussion is a no-win situation for either side of the debate.
I think I'll just sit and watch for a while.
It's certainly great entertainment.
Cheers.
Toyota has, at least, 6 comparison victories. :shades:
Toyota's hype comes from owners, and people who have driven them.
DrFill
I'm with you on that! My old Toyota PU has been troublesome, and has always suffered from very poor mileage. I think I'll have to buy a new one in a year or 2 at most, and whoever has the best at that time will get my dollars. All badges are in the running, but the Frontier is the current leader. I was hoping Hyundai or Kia would field a PU in time for me to compare them, but that's out of the question.
About ratings and reviews: You have to read the ratings and reviews carefully, and give them weightings. If a glowing review is about a 1 month old car, weight it low. If someone gives a low rating because he is angry about a dealer experience, weight it low. If someone downgrades the entire car because of the location of cup holders, don't give it much weight. Read between the lines, and look for repeating themes in the reviews. I like reviews where the owner obviously wants to like the car, but complains about a couple of major or minor problems. If 40 out of 100 reviews make positive remarks about exceptional quietness, then the car is probably quiet. If 40 out of 100 remark about a funny shifting transmission, then it's probably true. Don't let a few highly negative or glowing or reviews affect your decision. And by all means, don't be affected by reviews stating they "love" their car, or "hate" the manufacturer's social or political practices.
I just do not follow the poster's that think that quantity is a sure sign of quality. If that were true it would mean a Big Mac is better than a Ruth's Chris Steak.
I don't think that anyone is doing any real Toyota bashing here. Just being a bit more realistic in looking at things. Fact is that once you get past the hype and get down to brass tacks there is nothing special or magical about Toyota. No one can give me an overwhelming reason why I should buy a Toyota over someone else, at least not something concrete.
As for Hyundai with my wagon having just one issue in over 140K miles, my wifes no issues in 120K miles my daughters having one issue in just under 100K miles and my niece having no issues in almost 60K miles they have earned a serious consideration for my next car. And I know it cost Honda two sales as my SIL and another niece jumped the Honda bandwagon and went with Hyundais.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Are rats in the franchise a dealer issue or a brand problem?
Beside that you ruined most beef for me :shades:
I hated to spend that much on a steak anyway. Like owning an LS460 or S550. WHY??? You can't even take it down a washed out road without dragging bottom.
Have we got the Toyota guys looking over their shoulder for the Hyundai WAVE yet?
All this discussion is is an updated new world order version of Ford vs. Chevy. Only now Ford and Chevy don't present us with good and wise new car, truck or SUV buying choices. Oh, that's kind of harsh. They offer some good products but they offer sporadicly good products that don't quite hold up like the Asian offerings. The German cars and SUV's are over-hyped and not worth talking about IMO.
But since we car people don't have the fire anymore discussing Ford vs. Chevy we've switched. Just friendly interchanges of likes and dislikes for these rigs. I think Americans have shown that they are very, very, very slow to wake up to a good car brand like Kia, Hyundai and/or Mitsubishi. They will listen to family, car reviews, TV shows, you name it but they lazily will not research and will not go on the net where people like us have been inputting and reviewing different thoughts about car production and results and test drives for...years.
Anybody that says Hyundai and Kia et al are not making sellable and wantable rigs now is pulling a Loch Ness and hiding away. These makers are here and now producing quality vehicles. I'd place Mitsubishi in there as well and I will make an online Edmunds note of it if my '08 Lancer GTS has any problems at all. I did same with my last two, a 2001 Kia Sportage 4X4 and a 1999 Kia Sephia.
Toyota is fearing Hyundai and production quality problems for Toyota as they hurried up more vehicle production is not a big warning to watch out if you buy a Toyota. It is not a positive, though, either. It's just that Toyota has won over America so thoroughly that their machine is bound to keep chugging happily along for a long time. Remember, Americans can drive too fast all they want...but as far as car production the ideas bounce off their brains like a Rasheed Wallace 3-pointer bricking off the rim and going out of bounds.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I suppose the manufacturer could could issue traps.
No
Yes - the Frontier is a winner. I've owned both a Toyota and Nissan "mini- trucks" - they're all mid-size now - and the Nissan was the one I felt the best overall ownership experience with.
I shopped the Taco vs. the Fronty in 4 cyl/5spd setups and the Frontier was the clear choice. Less money too. I would have considered Hyundai but they're not at this party (why not?). So I bought it for a weekender utility ride.
There's still an extra-high tariff on trucks imported from Korea...that may change soon, ans Hyundai has expressed interest in getting into the truck market (Kia's Sorento technically is a truck-based SUV, so we know someone there has the know-how to make truck-type vehicles that can be sold in the US).
Now that the "Chicken Tax" is lifted Kia and Hyundai have more incentive to import p/u's here.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
As far Hyundai forget it they are nowhere in Toyota sales anyway. I mean Toyota gained alot of units last month May 2007 vs May 2006. I think Hyundai's styling is kinda on the boring side right now.
As far as CR goes CR rated the 2006 Fusion way more reliable than the Toyota Camry(4cyl) and a tick more reliable than the Toyota Camry(V6) on CR's reliability graphs. The Toyota Camry 4 cyl only finished with an average reliability mark.
I think the Ford/Chevy heat is still pretty hot over in the pickup world. I don't think the Ridgeline has made much of a dent, but the Tundra may sidetrack them for a few posts now and then.
I think Hyundai's doing a good job with their product line but their styling needs a little more spice. As far as Kia goes their vehicles are not proven enough in my opinion in terms of long term reliability and they don;t build any cars here in the US yet although they will be soon. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Mazda and Hyundai build at least a couple or more of their vehicle in the US.
As far as Mitsu I goes I think their styling in 2006-2007 has gotten better since they try to be 1992-1999 Pontiac esque from 2000-2004 with their exterior styling. I still would like the Eclipse to have a cleaner look on the Front end though. The bad thing about Mitsu is their dealer network or lack there of. I have a Mitsu dealer about 10 minutes away in Central Jersey but if you want to buy a Mitsu and can't make a deal with that dealer thats 10 minutes away from me you have to go an hour away to find another find Mitsu dealer and thats a pain in my opinion. I live in Cenral Jersey and to get that Mitsu dealer 1 hour away from my house its hard to get too because you have to go through a bunch of back roads just to get to that dealer.
The Ridgeline I think is more of a competitor to the Tacoma maybe. I agree the Tundra may take away a few Ford and Chevy, Ford, and Dodge Pick-up sales but only on a few. I don't know I wonder how many pick-ups Ford, Dodge and GM sell to private companies vs retail sales who need the pick-ups to carry tools in order to build houses. I wonder what the ratio will be/is to what Toyota will sell private company wise vs retails of the Tacoma sibce the Tacoma just became somewhat of a player in the full size pick-up category.
To be perfectly honest I think few cars out there have any real good distinctive styling. And most of those that do are pricy.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"What kind of car is that", she asked.
"It's a Hyundai Tucson", I replied, "it's the competitor to the Kia Sportage."
"Really..I like that car a lot."
We were in our '08 Lancer GTS driving in Tucson IIRC(pardon my pun-city..hee-hee.) BTW-she also loves our new Lancer GTS.
I didn't ask her but I get the feeling she may like it better than the new world order Sportage but not better than our traded-in '01 Sportage 4X4.
I don't feel that the Tucson is any slouch at all in the styling department, not even unique looking at all. Yet it does retain it's own cues and they are good styling points IMO.
Styling really is a subjective sort of a thing. I feel that both Kia and Hyundai are doing very well at body styling and if it weren't for Mitsubishi of Japan I would rank Hyundai/Kia at the top. I love my Lancer's styling so much and the new Outlander's that they win overall in my view. But my old favorite Kia has top-drawer designers employed. The CAD/CAM operation is treating them very well.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
As far as styling goes, I don't think neither Toyota nor Hyundai is hot off the press on that subject. You mentioned Toyota sales figure right before the above quote, which I can tell you has nothing to do with styling. I find styling for both Hyundai and Toyota to be conservative, especially Toyota. I am coming around on Hyundai, the BH luxury RWD sedan looks great, in my opinion.
I liked the the 01-06 Elantra and 03 Tibby the best. Gen 1 Santa Fe not my style.
"Personally I think all Hyundais in the U.S. market, with the possible exception of the Tucson, are pleasant looking. (The Tucson isn't hideous but looks a little too clunky in front for my taste.)"
The Tuscon is ok looking.
"Recently they have gone more mainstream, with cleaner lines."
Ah, I think Hyundai has gone a little too mainstream looking with their vehicles now. The 07 Elantra I sat in it at an autoshow and was impressed but the exterior is kinda conservative for me.
Also, it's funny you should mention designers. Peter Schreyer, formerly had his post at Audi, now Kia. I think he will do well there, I mean look at how the Kia ex-cee'd concept turned out under his direction:
I agree but I did like some of Toyota's cars on the exterior in the late 90's/early 00's.
"You mentioned Toyota sales figure right before the above quote, which I can tell you has nothing to do with styling."
Oh I know Toyota's big sales numbers of last month had nothing to do with styling its because they(Toyota) have a great reputation for reliability so thats why they sell alot of cars. The 07 Camry exterior isn;t bad looking though when compared to the 02 Camry's exterior I have to say though. I did sit in a Camry at an autoshow and I did like it and it would be a car I would look at if I had a family. The rest of the Toyota line I could take a pass on right away because their styling just doesn;t click with me.
I am a Honda/Acura and a Mazda guy myself and usually Toyota's are usually styled more conservative than Honda and Mazda's vehicles.
I spent a lot of time looking in to the Hyundai Tiburon and test drove one on two occasions, both of them white 5-speeds, in 2002 and early 2003 IIRC. I liked both test-drives but wasn't in the right trading position at the time. I was gonna see how far they would bend but they stopped bending.
Then the Scion tC came along and then the xA. But I realized eventually that I wanted a 4-door for our situation more than a coupe. This C'eed and the new Soul are cool looking designs, Mr.Schreyer has been hard at it it appears. This new direction is exciting for Kia!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Both the Tucson and the Sportage are poor sellers, so the term 'competitor' may be accurate but hardly meaningful.
Interesting that Toyota seems to have given up on this market segment in the U.S., after up-sizing the RAV4. Maybe they didn't see big sales there, since it's possible to get a bigger SUV with more utililty and about the same fuel economy as the Tucson/Sportage, for not much more money. I suspect one of the reasons the Tucson (and Sportage) aren't selling well is related to the big surge in sales for the Santa Fe since the 2007 model debuted. And the new RAV4 is doing well also. A V6 Tucson doesn't cost much less than a Santa Fe GLS that has the same engine, and the Santa Fe is much nicer IMO.
I headed over to Nissan last purchase because I thought they offered a better vehicle (well equipped) for the money.
I now drive a new Frontier. The funny thing is, the Toyota salespeople were far more hard sell.
My nephew was set on purchasing a new Rav4, but after realizing what he'd have to pay out (full MSRP), decided to look elsewhere and is now considering the Santa Fe.
That is what he said, iirc.
Too bad, since the Pro' C'eed is one sharp looking 3 door sporty car.
Who knows, though?
On sites like intellichoice.com, future vehicles(09?) they were claiming some kind of sporty car(s) for Kia by then(either in 08 and 09 model, or in 09).
Elantra. Yes, nice inside. Tolerable exterior. Looked at Edmunds, and , iirc, 10 seconds to 60. IIRC, last model did it in 9.1 seconds.
The 1998 I had as a free loaner when car was in shop(accident) in 2000... it felt faster than the last generation, even.
It felt "sporty", in comparison to the this, and the last generations, to me, anyway.
I also noticed on the Elantra, they have done away with the 8 way seat adjuster for 6 way adjuster.
Hmmmmm.
The interior did not look quite as nice(to me) as the last generation(plastics).
It is ok, but nothing to get our $$$.
Only car I really like is the Azera...but the prices have went waaay up vs XG350, etc..
Maybe for 20K, I would perhaps consider one(new).
Only Toyota we like is the tC right now.
If the next generation Corolla is decent... might check it out.
Versa is a really big shocker; Nissan.
It's a fun little car, tons of room.
Waiting to check out the SX4 sedan, and next years Verona( hatch, if we get it). All Suzuki built.
Anyhow....
like I say, but what you like.
Never know what's out there unless you look around, you might be surprised.
Len Hunt: At the moment, those cars are designed and put forward for the European market. However, we do notice a merging of design trends from both sides of the Atlantic, so we are always considering for the future reactions. Good example: the recent small car trend in the US with cars like the Rio, Versa, Fit and Yaris. Previously small cars were not popular in the US, but now they are very popular with fuel, safety, value - all being accomplished by those manufacturers. So who knows for the future? We are watching it.
Anyone recall when the announcement was made that the Rio(and Accent?) were supposedly going to arrive in Sept(Fall) of 06 with hybrids, then a few months before "launch", word was that they were too costly , and Hyundai/Kia would lose money selling them,they weren't going to sell them, and that was it.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/hyundai_introdu.html
This article from Dec 2005 mentions the hybrid Accent( which was then, of course, never delivered, as promised. We may still see one...when is unknown at this time).
I have also heard rumors of a convertible Tiburon since about 2003-04. We may get one soon, I have heard.
This is why when I hear things about "we are looking at.. we are checking into that"... I take it with a grain of salt( even if it is the "boss" of NA operations
Never know what the South Korean bosses will say for the final production vehicles in the USA.
Oh, also been hearing about the "sporty" Kia for ages, also, from salesmen, etc..maybe soon?
I would not mind if Kia borrowed the Tibby FWD, made it look sort of like the Pro-C'eed( why not? Scion tC sells very well with 3 doors), and there ya go!
Sporty car for Kia.
Anyhow, won't know until we get "the official word" from South Korean bosses
Not saying anything negative against Mr. Len Hunt, I was just saying... we have heard many vehicles/ideas in the past, some have happened/been built, some haven't.
Take Care/Not Offense.
Veloster is not a Tucson replacement(as of now).
Supposedly, from various sites, blogs, etc.., this thing is about the length of the current Accent SE( 161 inches or so.. which for me is a little too short for driving on interstates and not feeling a bit intimidated), but might have 220HP I-4 turbo(or supercharger)?
Other rumors say it will be the Tibby replacement(since Tibby will supposedly be going RWD, and 300+HP? And rumors are that the Tibby,it may be the same size as today's model, or slightly larger, and based on the Genesis RWD platform.. soooo many stories, none of them 100% ok'd by South Korean bosses, that we know about).
If they dobuild the Veloster,and it is FWD, and about Tibby-sized.... reasonably priced...(and MPG is something of a consideration... our tC gets 32-34 mixed...60-65% hwy, rest city)I would look into a test drive, at least.
take care/not offense.
I think Hundai is staying mainstream in the styling because they want to become mainstream in sales. IMHO, if and when their brand and sales really take off, they will become a little less conservative.
I'm not much on fancy cosmetics. I think there are a lot of others like me that believe that good engineering and good value have a special beauty of their own.
No, COO
10 seconds to 60. IIRC, last model did it in 9.1 seconds.
It's the same engine re-tuned for fuel economy. Not sure why it was almost a second slower, and what is the obsession of 0-60 in a economy car nontheless?
Only car I really like is the Azera...but the prices have went waaay up vs XG350, etc..Maybe for 20K, I would perhaps consider one(new).
The Azera is every bit better than the outgoing XG, times 1000. The price didn't go up much, IIRC, and it deserved the price, still undercut compeition by thousands. $20K? Hyundai, just like every other automaker is in the business to make money? You might well just tell them to go bankrupt with your suggestions - not going to happen. You do know how much Hyudnai sells the Azera/Granduer for in the home market, right?
Small Car Honda Civic(a) 882
Small Multi-Function (MFV) Volkswagen Rabbit 880
Medium Car Saturn Aura, Nissan Maxima 892, 891
Large Car Hyundai Azera 901
Near-Luxury Car BMW 3-Series Sedan 919
Luxury Car Mercedes S-Class 928
Small Specialty less than $25,000 MINI Cooper 911
Convertible less than $30,000 MINI Cooper Convertible(a) 905
Convertible greater than $30,000 Chevrolet Corvette(a) 930
Minivan Kia Sedona, Hyundai Entourage, Nissan Quest 866, 866, 865
Small SUV Hyundai Santa Fe 885
Medium Crossover Dodge Magnum 882
Medium SUV Kia Sorento 889
Large SUV Ford Expedition EL 918
Near-Luxury SUV Lexus RX 350(a) 905
Luxury SUV Mercedes ML 915
Standard Pickup Honda Ridgeline(a) 879
Large Pickup Nissan Titan, Ford F-150 876, 875
Heavy Duty Pickup Ford F-250/F-350 876
(a) 2006 Total Quality Award(TM) winner
http://www.strategicvision.com/press_release.php?pr=27
What a bunch of nonsense.
Maybe I'll make up my own award. I'll post the results later.
What does make sense, then?
It is good to see the pendulum swing though.
Personally, I'd include another Nissan and/or Infiniti on to that list.
Cheers!
Just proves that CR can be right now and then if they try.
or any other automaker for that matter
I own a 07 Elantra Limited. My SO drives it. I too thought it was homely at first. But it's grown on me. I privacy tinted the rear glass, added some mudguards. I like it now. Should come standard this way as a Limited. Notwithstanding, it's a great, great car for the money with decent gas mileage and fun to drive. Corolla--I looked at it and grimaced. Boring and more money for what I wanted.
Even had a thing on local news last year one guy was ran
off of the road(while he was trying to enter the highway.. he had a smaller, slower car, other guy was already doing 75 on a 65 road)..... he got back on, but the guy who cut him off was over to the side 1/2 mile down
waiting for the guy to pass him, followed him home, shot him to death in his own yard. Road Rage.
Look, to be honest, my 04 sonata gls v6 was 14,999 loaded minus abs and leather. today? lol... try getting one even 2K more from this, on sale. Ain't gonna happen, unless they build them in China, maybe.
As a matter of fact... we may see Midsized sedans, V6, 30 MPG, 15K loaded like 23K other cars soon... from China? Who knows?
I am just sick of seeing cars today, that were 10 K 3 years ago, now 15K.
My pay check does not increase like that, in 3 years, to keep up with "inflation"(gas, cars, insurance rates for life, health, car... insurances)... so, that's my deal.
I know lot of people driving Aveo's, because they like GM only, but would buy something else, given they could make 18-22 an hour vs 10-12.
I'll drive whatever someone tells me to, as long as they make the payments for me
Compare 0-60 in 8.2 seconds and 34 MPG is cool: See Scion tC automatic. So, what is this about only slow, small cars can get decent MPG?
The Elantra is slower, 22 HP less than the tC, yet, only gets 2MPG better( and about 1.8 seconds , or more, 60 slower than the tC, also)
Local dealership said Scion was contemplating a 5 door sporty car( maybe to compete with Lancer?)... that would do, 8+ seconds to 60, with automatic, 32-34MPG would be great
I am gonna quit posting now... for awhile, I can see the bashing the poster is happening again!
:sick:
take care/not offense.