Toyota Fearing Hyundai?

harrychezt

messed up, should have said" I know a few people who bought Aveo's, but Not because theylike GM only, and if theyhad better paying jobs(or got raises to compete against the rises in gas, food, other price increases, to me is inflation), they would look at more costly, other brand, cars or crossovers. Since they don't make a ton of cash, they go for the cheapest new car around( and one where they do not need to drive 40 miles if something goes wrong, under warranty, where GM has tons of Chevy dealerships within 10-20 miles).
Tons of various factors, but I have yet to meet a "rich" person these days, in my parts(I do know some making 35-45 per hour, and they still aren't rolling in the dough, so-to-speak).
Some of those guys buy the 5-10 year old vehicles!
Anyhow, time for a brief break from here.
Like I said, I have owned tons of cars, and none of them were perfect, ever.
take care/not offense.

goodegg

The Aveo BTW is a Korean made car. And the Hyundais and Kias are appealing to many because they're a decent car that's priced lower than a comparable Toyota/Honda/Nissan.

But not everybody in this class of car is pinching pennies. Sure 97% of them have budgets, but scimping on the car doesn't seem to be where they're at. There's 20 other things people seem to shave in their budget before they want to go to the lower end of the scale on their car decision (cut vacation, eating out, high end clothes etc.)

At least around here. The 'keeping up with the Joneses' mantra is alive and well in the 'burbs and you won't find many Hyundais and Kias in the garages. Camrys seem to make the cut tho.

snakeweasel

Tons of various factors, but I have yet to meet a "rich" person these days, in my parts(I do know some making 35-45 per hour, and they still aren't rolling in the dough, so-to-speak).

Then they are doing something wrong.

joe97

What's the world coming to when 0-60 takes precedence over other attributes normally desired in the econ class? I must be getting old

BTW, the example you gave is what would be called stupidity at its finest - those on the news, not you!

RE: Entering and exiting freeways, just like any other types of driving, require experience, not how fast your car goes 0-60. Heck, I could get on a Yugo and still would have no problem entering and exiting highways. "Move it or lose it" only applies to someone who wouldn't have the slightest clue what they are doing on the road - how fast a car goes shouldn't even become a factor for most.

Also, if you think Sonata or other midsize vehicles are expensive, then you should consider downgrade to a compact/subcompact. As a matter of fact, the US is one of the cheapest market to purchase vehicles - one of the main reasons due to the fierce competition - consumers win

joe97

The Aveo BTW is a Korean made car.

Ironically, a good percentage of the general public think it is American

stever

A. Because they don't have to?

Hyundai offers 10-year/100K powertrain warranty on Certified Used Cars

joe97

Now there is a huge statement. I don't believe any others offer 10/100 on CPO.

Recall when Hyundai started its 10/100 on new vehicles, was it in '98 (??), the repair costs have since slashed by half.

This will further solidify Hyundai's position in the US.

w9cw

Please refer to this link:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070604/vehicle_quality.html?.v=5

w9cw

Re. the Scion tC - I like it, and my sister has a 2007 tC. But sit two to three adults in the back seat; yessss, maybeeee . . ., but without any comfort whatsoever. I would say only two adults could reasonably fit back there, and with no headroom. I'm only 6 feet, and I have to tilt my head forward to sit in the back seat of my sister's tC. I wouldn't want to ride back there for more than 50 miles.

IMO, a tC is a great car for a couple, and possibly a small child.

mindaugas

Exactly ! It is hard to deny a Hyundai's improvements in overall quality.
Only stubborn and stupid people can continue to do that !!! You can't ignore the facts !!! :surprise:

harrychezt

No, the back seats aren't what I would call for 100+ mile drives, in the tC. The spouse had 5 people in the car( co-workers,etc) before, and the tallest one was around 6'2", and they did the rear seats( reclined) thing, and had little headroom, but for the 15 minutes drive to BK, and 15 minutes back, it was tolerable.
The other time , she had a person about 5'5", and another was 5'10" in the back, and the other in passenger side was 5'11"...and not much of a big deal. No one was "hurting" from sitting in the thing for 25-30 minutes.
It's not an Elantra, but, since it is used for a commuter car(mainly), and if we travel, it 's 2 people up front...it's a decent little car, can haul a fair amount of stuff in it( Mens 27 inch bike, 2 a/c units( 10,000 BTU and a 6,500 BTU, plus 6 bags of groceries, and room for 2 up front, no problems) kind of nice, even hauled a wheel barrow in the 3 door hatch , hatch closed.

Not bad.
I would not mind a sporty looking( non-wagon look)4(or 5 , according to one salesman I spoke to) door version(xR is what some sites call the rumored next Scion).
http://www.motortrend.com/future/spied_vehicles/112_2009fvf/nissan_pontiac_scion_volkswagen.html

Anyhow, all speculation for now.

Take care/Not offense.

nippononly

JD Power is about to release the results of its latest IQS (initial quality survey) on Wednesday, and it will go well for Hyundai too. This survey, unlike the Strategic Vision one, does not include how much new owners LIKE their vehicles, but is more of a straight-forward "how many problems have you had?" type of thing.

Hey, in all this Toyota vs Hyundai talk, no-one has asked who HYUNDAI should be nervously watching over its shoulder. Do the Chinese present a threat? Does GM? Do other lesser Asian carmakers? Some other threat not yet envisioned, like the rapidly expanding Indians (Tata, etc)?

harrychezt

Well, here's the deal. Before the person(s) made this money, they made Less $$$.
While they made less money, they had thing happen, that required loans, or using a few grand on the credit cards, to pay for, like car breaking down, or new water pump/water well system, and so on.

Most people dont have 1-6K lying around, for various repairs.
Anyhow, the addition of 4 years of college(loans,for themselves, plus, paying off kids 2 year college bills, on top of this) At Any Age, = a pain to repay rapidly.
After the college, then the better jobs, it takes years to repay the debt incurred over 10-15 years before reaching this point of higher paying job(s).
And, as per usual in life, about the time you are debt free, you need maybe tires( 500-600 dollars) a tune up(60K can be 400-600 dollars, if timing belts replaced, also, on some cars/trucks),or car dies out, or you need a few hundred for dental bills (out of the blue), or
you need to replace say riding mower, or dryer/washer , stove, refrigerator, or roof issues need fixed, or septic system needs work...and on and on it goes.
And of course, health insurance bills of 300 for 2 people per month, and 175 for meds, 20-30 co-pay dollars per script.It all adds up.
Now, if you never incurred a bill, ever,pay cash for your cars( that's 250-400 a month, of 150-200 a month used vehicles)and never used a credit card, a loan, etc... then , yes, 35-45 K is a lot.
If you have health issues, needs meds, pay insurance,
had loans out to repair your home, go to school, get a car, pay your gas, electric, property taxes and school taxes, and federal and state taxes, and phone and internet bill, cable bill, well, when you think of it in this manner... 35-45K(gross, maybe upper 20's net) goes only so far for 2-3 people.
Unless you're rich, and your home, etc are paid off... then 20-30K per year is"fun money"

I guess one could say "Life Happens".
One guy told me he'd have invested in oil 2-3 years ago...to try to "get rich", if he had money to spend on stocks, but, the govt, state, bank,insurance companies,credit card companies, etc... on and on, want their money first.
Take Care/Not Offense.

w9cw

Most think the Chinese will present a formidable threat to all manufacturers in the next decade. It's following the trend of electronics manufacturing: USA, then Japan, then South Korea, then Taiwan and Hong Kong, and now mainland China. Manufacturers seek the best quality and highest productivity for the lowest price for the factor of labor.

snakeweasel

Hey, in all this Toyota vs Hyundai talk, no-one has asked who HYUNDAI should be nervously watching over its shoulder.

I think any car manufacturer should be watching all others. You never know what we will be talking about in 10-20 years. Who knows we may be talking about how big and great Chrysler is and how in the world could anyone buy a Toyota.

snakeweasel

Most people dont have 1-6K lying around, for various repairs.

True only because most people are not fiscally responsible. To many people want this or that and want it now so they spend everything they get and then some. People need to live within their means and start saving money.

nippononly

In 20 years we will be saying "Chrysler? What's Chrysler? You mean there used to be a car company with that name?" ;-)

By that time Toyota will have to be working a lot harder to earn the price premium it charges.

backy

I agree. That is only smart to keep a close eye on your competitors. Maybe in a couple of decades, it will be the Chinese manufacturers watching out for the up and coming car companies from Indonesia and/or Africa.

But then, those are other discussions, aren't they?

driver56

...in 20 years, with the Chinese, for one. Huge economy, striving, they want what we have. The Chinese Chery! With help from Lotus and Mitsubishi the sky's the limit.
It is an interesting world we live in.

harrychezt

The broke people I know( well, when you only bring in 1,200 a month, and you're bills total 900 a month+...due to food, clothing,gas,utilities,maintainence on home and auto and if ill, the human body...for meds...you are not able to really go out and spend freely)would like a cheaper(?) Chinese car(vs everyone else).
Maybe others, if the carfs are even up to Hyundai/Kia quality, would want a bargain(reason why we got Hyundai, or one of them, in the first place. A Midsized V6 sedan for the price of other people's I-4 Midsized sedans, or in some case, when sales were involved, a Midsized V6 for the price of a compact I-4).
Will be interesting to see what happens between now and 2015.
take care/not offense.

ukraguy

I think Nissan will be Hyundai's first victim.

bumpy

If you're only pulling down $7 an hour, you're not going to be buying a new car from anybody. Not even China can crank them out that cheaply.

chetj

yeah you do pay more for a toyota..i wouldnt pay it myself knowing i can get a comparable for usually quite a bit less

harrychezt

That is Net pay, 1200, guy makes 10.50 per hour... but compared to what some military make, that's alot...
10 an hour was big pay, in 1980.
Around here? Go to the local factories, and a lot of jobs are 90 days, 8-10 per hour, through an agency, for example, or work at Wal-Mart for 5 years, and get to 9+ Per hour, maybe.
Lot of factories closing, so when you get a ton of ex-GM employees, etc, in one area... jobs are hard to find, and suddenly, the more labor willing to work for whatever they can get means factories(other than auto industry) can almost pay what they want, and people will take it.
I actually know a lady around 30, who is Boss at Wal-Mart, only making 9.50 an hour... she has a new(06, last generation) Accent.
5 years of payments on a 10K car( with financing, etc... about 13K...so, around 220 a month).
So, I could see people getting a car for 10-12K, if they plan for it.
This is why many around here drive cars that are old... anywhere from 5 to 23( know a guy with a rust free Citation, 55K miles in 23 years... hatch).
Has a CD player under the dash.
1,200 was what the guy paid for it :surprise:
Sounded ok, been running a month now... no problems(so far).

The avg age for the cars though(when purchased by most of our neighbors) seems to be 7 years old, and around 3-4K.
They somehow can afford New trucks(some) but not a new car?
:confuse:
anyhow..... the people who might spend 5K on used, might be willing to spend 8K MSRP (or so) on a sub-compact Chinese car for 5 years?
Maybe we'll find out when/if Chery builds that Hornet for Chrysler for late 08, early 09?
Rumors are of a (around, or slightly under)10K and MSRP , and up, price range.

driver56

Not my beloved Nissan? Wait a minute. Maybe they could amalgamate and become Hyunissan? I like the sound of that.

joe97

That actually isn't a bad idea, you know. I know Ghosn is still shopping for US automaker partner but an alliance/partnership/etc between Nissan and Hyundai could benefit both.

snakeweasel

All I am saying is in twenty years anyone can be on top and anyone can crash. Chrysler could very well have a rebirth and be on its way up and Toyota could have long time prior dropped the ball and crashed. You never know.

dsirias

for some carmakers and would probably start another merger mania.

They could kill the Accent except for the hatch upgraged and bigger to compete with the TC

Either the Elantra or the Sentra could become a dedicated Hybrid

Either the Sonata or Altima could become a dedicated hybrid

And Hyndai would have a place to realize its ambition for a high end nameplte for its upscale cars and SUV's

And that's at first blush

drfill

Where did my post go? :confuse:

DrFill

stever

Since your message was posted in multiple places your posts were removed. Members get irritated when they see something that looks like spam and complain. You should have gotten an email about it to your AOL account.

nippononly

It's my feeling that Toyota won't drop the ball, but rather get beaten back slowly but surely by the competition. Never because it gets lazy or complacent, but because what it does best was a big draw in 1985 and 1995, but not so much in 2005 (and even less in 2015, I expect).

poncho167

I don't think much of Consumer Reports information being it only comes from those who subscribe to their rag. It doesn't help their reputation with CR recently admitting to outsourcing child safety seat tests to another company with the majority of them incorrectly tested and failing.

driver56

I know one thing. You'd be silly to base a car buying decision solely on a set of colored dots.
I did take CR's advice when I purchased my current cordless phone though. It's worked out pretty well.

bobad

I don't see Toyota losing their 1st place ranking in sales any time soon. However, I do see the competition taking a bigger and bigger chunk of their sales. Buyers are becoming more and more savvy, and they will quickly learn that Toyota doesn't have the market cornered on quality and value.

nippononly

I saw in the auto news yesterday that Mahindra of India is getting ready to sell small pick-ups in the U.S. 18 months from now?

That will put a damper on Hyundai's plans for duty-free (thanks to the last round of trade talks) exports of pick-ups to the States around 2010.

On a different note, GM and VW's penetration in China is pretty good, not to mention I bet SAIC and Chery in China will be GARGANTUAN 20 years from now.

The global market will further splinter and consolidate, and one thing Toyota mostly doesn't do (and Hyundai doesn't do either) is consolidate/buy up other companies.

Toyota may be peaking right now in terms of global sales. I think they will continue to be very profitable, but I am not so sure their market share will continue to rise much.

stever

The top three models by category in the 2007 J.D. Power Initial Quality Study includes three Hyundais and one Kia.

I count 4 Toyota's and 4 Lexus models on the list. And 1 Scion.

Detroit Free Press

Ford had the most "winners."

joe97

Actually two Kias. Rio/Rio5 as the top ranked; and Sedona behind Chevy Express.

Kia went from 24th last year to 12th this year.

Also five Lexus models and seven Toyota models

The top three models by category in the 2007 J.D. Power Initial Quality Study includes three Hyundais and one Kia.

I count 4 Toyota's and 4 Lexus models on the list. And 1 Scion.

stever

I'm glad someone can count around here. :shades:

This looks like a better link than my other one too:

J.D. Power and Associates Reports

Thanks Joe!

poncho167

"I did take CR's advice when I purchased my current cordless phone though. It's worked out pretty well."

Sorry, I usually mention tractors, refrigerators, or toasters, etc., which I may look to CR for information, ratings.

poncho167

"I saw in the auto news yesterday that Mahindra of India is getting ready to sell small pick-ups in the U.S. 18 months from now?"

I saw this news about the India truck over the past winter. It is what we used to call a compact truck. This is what the majority of truck buyers need. Because most trucks are not used for work/hauling, this would be perfect for the majority who use them for commuting.

The proposed Hyundai truck last I read was going to be produced by Navistar International Harvester.

nippononly

shows an increase of 23 defects per 100 cars this year.

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070606/REG/70606014/1170/emailblast02&refsect=emailblast02

Toyota also dropped, and is now several spots behind Honda, which is a reversal of last year.

And both Toyota/Lexus and Hyundai/Kia are ahead of all GM brands, which are all below the industry average. But what a showing for Ford!

bobad

I'm really proud of Ford. I hope they don't rest on their laurels. I hope they keep ratcheting up their quality. GM and Ford are both doing amazingly well to be handcuffed as they are.

driver56

Just goes to show, there really isn't much of a discrepancy between the highest rated (Porsche) and the lowest (Land Rover).... .9 of a problem per vehicle versus 1.7 problems per vehicle? And the industry average being 1.25 problems per vehicle?
I'd like to compare the Initial Quality study to maybe a 5 year study. At least for interest sake.
Afterall, the horse that gets out of the gate first rarely wins.

driver56

I may leave the tractors out.

iluvmysephia1

showing, indeed. That is some real progress in fairly short time order. I kind of like the Fusion and took a look at what the Focus may be in the near future but dropped interest fairly quick as other makers brought out some fine new product.

I wouldn't rule out a possible Ford purchase in the future-most of my car purchases have been Ford's before turning to Kia's in May of 1999 and now Mitsubishi.

But the focus on quality at Ford(pardon the pun)is probably not going to be reduced as they are struggling to just survive in NA right now.

harrychezt

Not bad. But.... they have been out since what, Oct 05?
I saw one at Kroger's store, and looked inside...had darker interior( grey or black...honestly could not tell!).
The interior looked Faded already :surprise:
My in-law has a 1999 Ford Taurus, about 130,000 miles. He got it used. Only needed a new fan blade and heater had issues.
His interior looks about like this(got to be under 2 years old, since they haven't been out that long) Fusion I saw :surprise:

See if you can find any used(again, unless maybe a rental company is selling some?)...Fusion's on a lot... and check out the interior.
Either the person's car I saw never heard of armor-all(for plastic parts, keep them from fading,looking good, and cleaning them, dash, doors, etc), or something's seriously wrong here.
A final note: Don't shoot the messenger... I just report what I saw. Nothing more, nothing less.My in-law is debating on buying a slighty used 500/Taurus or the Fusion... next year or so.... alread told him about this... and he will be checking out "fade" before buying.
Sounds "silly" to worry about?
Still, when a 2 year old car looks like a 8 year old car, due to sun fade...like I said, may be the owners neglect, or something else, maybe both?? I don't know.

iluvmysephia1

to want your new car's interior to look good for longer than two years. It's just one more thing to look at when car shopping, though I won't be doing that particular thing for many, many more moons. Keep us posted on whatever you learn about the Fusion, harry, or I spose I could just go there on Edmunds and learn all I need to know about them.

Ford was bragging about winning an "on the street" comparo between their Fusion and probably a Honda Accord and Toyota Camry in head-to-head test drive competition. Actually looking at the Fusion specs and particulars the car stacks up pretty well. I don't like the Accord or the Camry so if buying in this size range for me it would be the Ford Fusion. Unless it's a Hyundai Sonata or a Mitsubishi Galant. I just wanted a smaller rig like a Scion xA or Mitsubishi Lancer and ended up buying the Lancer GTS as you know.

But I am one that likes the body style of the Ford Fusion, for starters.

alpha01

I think serves to validate quite a bit of what's been talked about on these forums, and what's been seen elsewhere. For example, the tremendous showing of the Ford midsize triplets is encouraging, and echos what CR showed as their reliability rating of Much Better than Average.

And certainly, I understand that this is IQS/first 90 days of ownership, but for brand new models such as these, having only been around for


I am not surprised that Toyota slipped a bit in the overall ratings, given the multitude of launches, and frankly, for the same reason, I'm not all that surprised that Hyundai faltered as well. However, I think 23PP100 is fairly substantial, and I'd be interested to know if that significant drop is due to one particular model.




Merecedes-Benz was a surprise to me, with significant improvement. It will be interesting 3-5 years from now to see if this strong showing in IQS translates into Longer-term dependability.

my brief .02, fwiw...

~alpha

iluvmysephia1

up there at the very top for IQS/first 90 days of ownership. Tell me that's not true! I've been bunching them in with VW and Mercedes for jokes in quality for years and now this? IIRC VW scored well, too, or was that a blip of another flavor entirely?

backy

Porsche made their big leap in the IQS standings last year. They continued to show well in 2007. But then, they are not Toyota or Hyundai; our Host has been very patient with us so far, but there was that little reminder awhile ago so...

Will Toyota continue their downward trend in qualilty (not a steep downward slope, but consistent)? Will Hyundai be able to rebound as their all-new lineup matures a bit? Will Kia continue their improvement and get to the top 3 in IQS in the near future, as Hyundai did awhile ago? Tune in next June...