Toyota Fearing Hyundai?

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Comments

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    that the support of Hyundai helps them. What we in America get precious little news on is insider track information on what goes on in design studios and in the Hyundai/Kia manufacturing plants. I do know that both companies are hurt by their volatile unions and the Hyundai CEO criminal case of late. But their overall scene looks very promising for their future.

    I think this trend will continue and Kia and Hyundai will continue on in an upward quality trend. Look at where they've gotten so fast. Also, long-term quality for Kia and Hyundai, what new reports are there available. My own Kia experience has been quite good and I've read bushelfuls of them on the net but people generally like to see reports like this one just released to grow their knowledge tree on regarding a particular make.

    I don't think that Toyota sales will falter much at all throughout 2007 and beyond that I don't see any profit to going that far down the road right now. Their process is working but ramping up production and release of new product has taken a very noticeable toll on Toyota quality the last year and a half or so. Remember, this was the Toyota purchase case for a long time. Buy Toyota because they're the best. That is no longer true. Also, their Warranty is weak. Not a good combination if it was my money being spent on a new rig.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Sorry, I usually mention tractors, refrigerators, or toasters, etc., which I may look to CR for information, ratings.

    I once worked for a company that made small appliances that other companies put their name on and sold as theirs. The owner had two of the toasters they made for two different companies sitting in his office. Actually they were the same toaster but with a different shell and name on them. He also had the CR reports on them, complete opposites.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • driver56driver56 Member Posts: 408
    Now, doesn't that open up a can a' worms regarding ratings from whomever?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Not a big surprise to me. I would never trust CR. How they have survived is a mystery.
  • oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    I recognize that all of us tend not to give up our own conclusions, but I feel You have passed excessively harsh judgement upon CR.
    Unfortunately the facts don't support your opinion.
    That organisation may not always say what You or I want to hear or think it should, but over the years it has done good service to the consumer, as have other agencies such as JD Power Associates and Strategic Vision, to name a few.
    I think it's unfair and unwarranted to just arbitrarily dismiss them as being irrelevant or whatever, just because saying so supports our own personal view of any issue.

    That said, I would like to complement Iluvmysephia1 on that excellent post no. 1124, above. It is a balanced and objective view of this forum's topic. I agree with most of it--the only exception being the part about Toyota's warranty being "weak". This may or may not be the case, however if longer warranties become a competitive issue in the future, Toyota won't be far behind I'm sure.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Re Toyota's warranty being weak:

    Toyota: 3/36k bumper-to-bumper, 5/60k powertrain, no roadside assistance.

    Hyundai/Kia: 5/60k bumper-to-bumper, 10/100k powertrain, 5 years roadside assistance.

    There are several other automakers with longer warranty terms than Toyota, including GM, Ford, Suzuki, and Mitsubishi.

    Draw your own conclusions as to the relative weakness (or not) of Toyota's warranty. I have. Given two cars with equivalent utility and price, I'll take the one with the longer warranty. Just another reason for people to choose Hyundai over Toyota, as other factors such as quality and performance become closer.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    harsh judgement upon CR

    Why is it so difficult to accept that some people will not like a certain source of information. I am sure if we took a poll some would not like CNN and others would not like Fox News. Why is it so important that CR be accepted as a good source of information? If you had spent a large portion of your income as I did to buy a camera touted as a best buy, only to find out they had never tested the camera. Maybe you would not trust them either. If everyone was totally objective, (as you claim to be) not sharing any opinions on this forum, it would die of boredom. A good Forum such as Edmund's is where people can share ideas and Opinions in a civilized debate. Do you think we would have 1129 posts so far if everyone agreed?

    Now to get onto Toyota warranties. My conclusion is that most Toyotas do indeed have longer than 3/36 warranties. It is an additional $2000 on the price. The sale is not closed until they scare you into buying the extended warranty, with stories of $1000 parts failing 15 minutes after the regular warranty has expired. It is just another way to overcharge for a car that is no better than the competition.
  • oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    Gosh, you guys are so quick to throw rocks at anyone who doesn't reflect your chosen version of the way the world should be!! (Actually it's kinda entertaining to watch this happen when you do that to each other!)
    Read again what I said about that warranty statement--quote: "It may or may not be the case". I really don't know if it is or isn't and I said so.
    I also said that if longer warranties become a competitive issue, I was sure Toyota would get on the bandwagon too. I'll be willing to bet serious money on that.

    One more time on the CR issue. It's not really fair to completely denounce any agency by saying something happened to you personally that caused you grief and therefore CR is worthless. These agencies actually do service to consumers--that's a fact.
    That's all I said. I wasn't saying that everyone isn't entitled to an opinion, or that disagreement on any issue is wrong, or that not trusting CR is bad. I just said the facts don't support a complete dismissal of anything they do. And it's true!
    Remember, this is the internet folks. I just take all I read with a large dose of salt.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Throwiing rocks? Please read my post again. I was throwing rocks at no one, only stating some facts, suggesting that people can make their own conclusions based on the facts, and noting what conclusion I have made. That is "throwing rocks" at someone? :confuse:

    If you want to see some rock-throwing, I suggest you look at some of your recent posts.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    the only exception being the part about Toyota's warranty being "weak". This may or may not be the case, however if longer warranties become a competitive issue in the future, Toyota won't be far behind I'm sure.

    I guess a 5 year warranty is fine for the average owner. Since I tend to keep my vehicles for 10 years, Hyundai's 10 year warranty fits me better than Toyota's 5 year warranty.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "I think this trend will continue and Kia and Hyundai will continue on in an upward quality trend."

    Just to note, that the current trend for Hyundai is DOWN, not up. Are you saying you think this is just a blip that will be quickly reversed? In that case, I would tend to agree, although I wonder as someone else did whether this was caused by one new model in particular. This study asked consumers about November/December purchases, right? Which means IIRC, that Veracruz would not show up as it was not available yet. And the new Elantra, when did that become available? I am losing track of time here...

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The new Elantra became available in the U.S. no later than October--maybe a little earlier in some locales. So in November/December 2006, the Santa Fe and Entourage were about six months old, the Accent sedan and Azera were coming up on one year, the Accent hatch was about 6 months old, the Elantra was brand-new.

    The down "trend" for Hyundai consists so far of one data point. If the 2008 IQS continues the downward slope, then IMO it's a "trend". Toyota's decline in the IQS is over mulitple years, so I think that constitutes a "trend."
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    but one will note that Toyota's slip (excluding Lexus) was 6 PP 100, or about 5% increase. Hyundai's slip was 23 PP 100, about 22%. IIRC, only Chysler and Dodge posted stepper 'probelms per' increases.

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The trends between Hyundai and Toyota in the IQS over the past few years go like this: Toyota, continuous decline, steeper rate in 2007; Hyundai, zig-zag pattern with its worst showing since 2003 in 2007:

    Year / Hyundai / Toyota

    2004 / 102 / 104
    2005 / 110 / 105
    2006 / 102 / 106
    2007 / 125 / 112

    Also note that over the past 4 years, Hyundai has topped Toyota twice and Toyota has topped Hyundai twice.

    So if these are the trends, what would we predict from Toyota and Hyundai on the IQS in 2008?
  • harrycheztharrychezt Member Posts: 405
    Scion(Toyota) tC: 880 dollars for 6/100K warranty, over 5 years, about 10-12 extra per month.
    Did we use it? Yes. On what? Throttle Body stuck shut... about 3 months ago, at 76K miles(now at 85K,in less than 3 years), they paid the tow and repairs, arond 1,100 dollars... saved about 220 dollars over all, But, prior to this, a few weeks earlier, we needed a new thermostat( 20 dollar+ tax part)... put in by Toyota, over a few hours, ended up costing the spouse(on her way to work, car was acting up, had no choice but to stop at Toyota/Scion, and hope it was something under warranty), and it was over 200 dollars. Basically, with what we saved on one repair, figuring in 880 we paid for the warranty, subtracing this 200+ deal we paid for.... we are about even right now, maybe 5 dollars ahead of the game!?

    Here's hoping this thing lasts until 140K....(about another 2 years, or around pay off).... and then who knows?

    Under Hyundai, the thermostat, we would have paid, also, but the warranty would have been "free"( well, they include it in the price, you can bet on that).
    I dunno.

    Whatever.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    yeah, I tend to focus on favorite Kia and their performance went from 24th to 12th. Hyundai's did take a drop but as has been pointed out Hyundai and Toyota are trading gains and drops recently. I would look at that data if I highly valued it(which I don't, but I don't discount it either, or act like it isn't true)and take it to the Kia or Hyundai or Mitsubishi(becoming my fave very quickly here)dealer and buy one of those rigs with a 10 year and 100,000 mile Warranty backing it up. Fortunate for me, the more heavily Warranteed cars are the ones I prefer. Life is good. ;)

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    I don't dismiss CR's information totally, just when it comes to auto's. I have read enough about their supposed car tests to know something is wrong. I don't just mean that it got one less dot in the ratings, I mean equal comparisons, apples to apples, when comparing similar models. I have noticed such obvious bias in their writers mentioning something they didn't care for in one model, but when another model has the same option (example-power window switches not on door) there is no mention of it, that is bad journalism. To base your scores on only those who subscribe to the rag is a disservice to the readers. Who knows why those people are responding; why aren't the other subscribers responding; what about demographics, income levels, no time to fill out form, etc. There needs to be a more legitimate way to base those dot scores. The people I know and myself included who have bought vehicles with supposed sub-par scores had no issues with their vehicle, but of course CR does. Go figure.

    As I mentioned before it doesn't surprise me at all that CR outsources some tests to other companies. The child safety seat evaluatin/debacle was a real low point for CR this year with them coming out and admitting to their outsourcing and the confusion/deception that occured with those seats.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,701
    >child safety seat evaluatin/debacle was a real low point for CR this year with

    The out sourcing of the child seat evaluations is probably only one of many.

    As for their inconsistency of ratings--right on point. They are inconsistent. I view CR as writing their items (if they do it themselves, grin) like a presidential hopeful candidate, looking in the rear-view mirror to see what effect their writings will have on the subscriber (voter)renewals when the money day comes.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    Thanks for your thoughtful introspect on the subject of CR.
    I agree that results by any polling agency can be held up to criticism at some point.
    Most, if not all of these agencies admit that up front when results are published, by stating the statistical accuracy of those results.
    It doesn't surprise me either about agencies like CR outsourcing some of their tests. All of the consumer product rating agencies do that to a greater or lesser degree, for the simple reason they don't have resources to do a full spectrum of tests on every product reviewed. Fundamentally they are "reporting" agencies first, and some of their tests can be done by others when necessary.
    I must also question your comment about "bias". If this does occur, and I doubt it does, it would be an extremely rare occurence.
    It's a fact that CR and other automotive polling agencies have incredibly strict guidelines about bias of any sort. Their ethics codes are inviolate, and penalties for any breaches of their codes are dealt with severely. Maintaining an ironclad "credibility equity" is absolutely critical to their existence.
    I was criticised for suggesting that CR and other agencies do good service for consumers, in the face of several other comments which I felt were excessively harsh.
    It was inferred that I was denying others of their opinions to the contrary. That was also an excessively harsh response.
    I fully respect others opinions; all I was trying to say was "don't shoot the messenger immediately when it does something perceived as incorrect".
    My advice to those critics would be "First, try to understand---then try to be understood!"

    Finally, my apologies for drifting off topic, but I felt obliged to speak to your good comments.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,701
    >results by any polling agency can be held up to criticism at some point.

    CR's methods are hardly polling methods. By sending out a questionnaire to some subscribers and then not following up on lack of returns, they essentially select cheerleaders by voice vote from the high school kids in the bleachers in the auditorium--popularity.

    > if not all of these agencies admit that up front when results are published, by stating the statistical accuracy of those results.

    Have you ever seen CR say, "We had 12 respondents on the Impala for 1998; 2 for 1999; 3 for 2000, 10 for 2001. And based on those meager returns of a convenience survey we give it black dots and red dots"?
    "Our margin of error from these nonstatistically correct data is 90%"?

    >It's a fact that CR and other automotive polling agencies have incredibly strict guidelines about bias of any sort.

    Not to nitpick as some do, but do you have any kind of evidence or link for that incredibly strict guidelines about about bias in their comparisons? I can take almost any issue where they compare cars and read carefully between the data table and the text blurb they write and show lack of consistency which is due to bias.

    >Their ethics codes are inviolate, and penalties for any breaches of their codes are dealt with severely.

    Has someone lost their job at CR for comparison misrepresentation due to their bias? I don't think so. Politicians also have rules about conduct in Washington and Ohio; our exgovernor, a convicted criminal, was recently employed by University of Dayton!!!

    JD Powers does a random survey. They follow up if a questionnaire is not returned. CR puts their survey out to some of their subscribers who choose or choose not to return the survey. How CR handles their collection and analysis of their (meager IMHO) data is obscured. JD Powers analyzes it and publishes summaries and sells the data to car makers; CR hopes to enlarge or retain subscribers by their results publication.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Have you ever seen CR say, "We had 12 respondents on the Impala for 1998; 2 for 1999; 3 for 2000, 10 for 2001. And based on those meager returns of a convenience survey we give it black dots and red dots"? "Our margin of error from these nonstatistically correct data is 90%"?

    I know all this CR stuff is off-topic, but just a suggestion for those who seem to think CR is incompetent: please take the time to check on how they do their annual auto surveys, and the techniques they employ to ensure there is a statistically valid sample size (or they don't publish the results), before you knock them.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,701
    > take the time to check on how they do their annual auto surveys, and the techniques they employ to ensure there is a statistically valid sample size (or they don't publish the results), before you knock them.

    Please post your data showing they actually use statistically correct methodology. The response sounds as though they do a random survey with at last 900 responses for each car model giving a 2-3% error range. They don't. It's just random. Stand at the local supermarket on a Saturday morning and ask people their opinion of their cars; you'll have the same convenience survey info they get--perhaps better info.

    My email is in my profile; read to find the split email without the "@." Or email my carspace; I sometimes see email there. I realize some have great confidence in CR and hate JD Powers and vice_versa>

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Since CR only samples their readers it is impossible for them to get a statistically valid sample. Certain demographics in our society don't subscribe to CR where others subscribe heavily and most are somewhere in between. So until CR tarts taking a sample of the population at large and not of their subscribers their samples will always be suspect.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • driver56driver56 Member Posts: 408
    I'm an on-line subscriber to CR myself. I've always shown an interest in their observations and have for many years
    used their findings only as one guideline of many to help choose a new or used auto. I do not have total faith in the reliability survey - too much room for error in my opinion, and far too general.
    I have more faith in CR's own long term testing of each vehicle. I have the most faith in my own observations and driving experience.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Truth be told with the toaster example I gave earlier. Along with other like examples I have come across in CR's tests. Plus the number of tests where one brand came out on top and totally ignoring the brands that everyone else says are better makes be seriously question CR ratings.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I said I WOULDN'T call Hyundai's performance this year a trend.

    But thanks for the stats. Re Toyota: For me, a varience of 2 defects per 100 vehicles across an entire brand over a span of 3 model years (2004-2006) is hardly worth noting.

    Now, the increase from 104 to 112 is more troubling, indeed, and its definitely a valid statement that Toyota's IQS PP100 has increased over the most recent 4 years. Still, it remains at a good level, and well ahead of the industry average. (Note, too, this excludes Lexus which would lower the PP overall).

    OTOH, Hyundai seems to be great in some years, very good in others, and barely ahead of the average this year. I wouldn't call it a trend. But its obviously not consistent performance, and, as noted, from last year to this, only DCX brands faltered to a greater degree.

    Happy Motoring,
    ;)
    ~alpha
  • driver56driver56 Member Posts: 408
    We should question. There are discrepancies, some things just don't add up. There are flaws, but we don't always know. And there is such a thing, quite common, called blind faith.
    Now, maybe we should get back to T vs. H.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Discrepancies are one thing, leaving out major manufactures that win other comparisons just doesn't smell right.

    Now, maybe we should get back to T vs. H.

    Texas vs Hawaii? OK, I like Hawaii much better.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I would think CR would be fine, they have no reason to be biased, but they do some strange things alright.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    is a useful tool for me is to use some good old-fashioned common sense and compare what I know from research and what I know from test drives, etc., and look at CR to see what their view is. As you all pretty much know I've owned two Kia's in a row. So my comparo is between what I know from research and what I know from ownership. Also, what happens to me and my Kia may not happen to someone else, obviously. Another variable is after the sale service from your dealer.

    OK, well, I have looked at CR and my own experience and found their research into Kia pathetic and if it isn't biased I'd like to know what it is. Sort of like the 2006 Super Bowl between the Pittsburgh Steelers and the Seattle Seahawks. Every time the Seahawks would start driving it was time to throw a flag and call offensive holding. I won't go in to that much more because it's not about car reviewing but it is the same type of thing. Bias. For that Super Bowl the refereeing crew chief was from Pittsburgh. Real bright, NFL, for picking that guy to lead. Yikes. BTW, if this observation is not true, then why has the NFL banned that referee crew from ever reffing another Super Bowl again? Their own safety? Could be. Gets a thinking person to thinking, though, and that Super Bowl was a modern day sports championship travesty of justice.

    For CR, they don't do their research where I'd expect them to do. I look at the mag for information and when I see discrepencies in my own research and attained knowledge and their "last-minute biased fill-in schlop", I know something is up.

    If you want to look at CR for guidance, have at it. I may look at it again for a power floor sweeper or a toaster. Seriously, that about it. I have seen them put an older model Kia Sephia picture(that looked like my '99 Sephia's picture) and they named it the 2002 Kia Spectra. To add insult to injury, CR then gave it the same review they gave my Sephia, with the same old shortcomings! And they are to be respected?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Big Bend is nice too, and you can drive to NM if you get bored. :P

    Check the Comments: Consumer Reports/JD Power Rankings discussion for more CR and JD Power talk.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have looked at CR and my own experience and found their research into Kia pathetic and if it isn't biased I'd like to know what it is.

    Very simple. All Kia would have to do is make a $10,000,000 tax deductible donation to CR and voila' they got the greatest cars on the planet. Well maybe next to the best for 10 mil.
  • punkr77punkr77 Member Posts: 183
    CR may not be perfect, but it is pretty much the only game in town. It's much better than the standard media like Motor Trend, Car and Driver, etc. who's reviews give you very little, if any, idea about long term ownership. I know from experience that new cars that feel tight and well made can turn into rattletraps with serious maintenance problems 30k down the road. My ownership experiences and that of my immediate family have always mirrored closely what consumer reports projects.

    It shouldn't be looked at as a car buyer's bible, but should give you some idea what you'll experience. If less than half of buyers would buy again within two years of purchase, it should send up red flags. Word of mouth, personal experiences, and sources like Edmunds should round out a buyer's research.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You cannot do too much research on buying a new car. If you like CR that is just one more source of information. I would do most research by asking people that own a vehicle I am interested in. But then I have no problem walking up to a stranger and striking up a conversation. You can get a ton of information online with Edmund's being the most valuable information available. Some of the autoblogs are balanced and informative. There are user groups for most vehicles sold. I have found the least reliable information comes from the sales people at the dealerships. Most are clueless about the vehicles they sell. That is a sad indictment but I am sure many here would agree. In the last six months I have visited MB, Toyota, Honda, Acura, GMC, Cadillac, BMW & Mitsubishi dealerships. The only two salesmen that were very knowledgable were at Cadillac and Acura.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    As requested by our Host, I have carried this thread into the discussion focused on CR/JD Power surveys. Here is my reply, with a couple of links for your use and others' also.

    backy, "Comments: Consumer Reports/JD Power Rankings" #52, 9 Jun 2007 6:50 pm
  • driver56driver56 Member Posts: 408
    I agree.
    I like Hawaii, but I don't really want to be stuck on an island.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    I spent two years on an island and one with a lot less amenities than Hawaii, it wasn't so bad.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • driver56driver56 Member Posts: 408
    Subjective, isn't it? Hyundai or Toyota?
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Sure is subjective, we only had 12-15 miles of paved roads, one TV station two radio stations one theater and a few dozed bars. Guess what we did a lot of?

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Of course, they have put Rav4, Sienna, Highlander Hybrid, and Prius on their 10 Best Cars of 2007 list, so who am I to argue..... :blush:

    And they rated Toyota vehicles as the most reliable, while giving Hyundai a merdiocre at best company quality rating.

    DrFill
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Would you please stop stirring trouble? Your obvious Toyota fanboy suit is worn out by now. Obviously everyone respects where Toyota is, but for god sakes, give a little credit to Hyundai, and what the automaker has accomplished.

    In the same sense, Strategic Vision gave three awards to Hyundai (two to Kia), Hyundai has 2 cars as Top Picks from IIHS, none from Toyota on either.

    I think you get my drift and see where I am going with this. To say Hyundai is mediocre is ludacrious, which isn't surprising with your obvious bias. Apparently, you are one of the few people that aren't recognizing Hyundai's upswing.

    By the way, CR rated Hyundai 7th in the new car reliability you are talking about - ain't too shabby any which way you try to spin it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    From the above article:

    This is more good news for Hyundai that's on a bit of a roll. The Veracruz just beat out the Lexus RX350 in a Motor Trend comparison.

    If we were Toyota, we'd be sweating the sleeper company from South Korea right about now. Check out the full press release after the jump.


    It is always the salesmen that are last to find out.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Last to find out? Or last to admit to finding out? ;)
  • driver56driver56 Member Posts: 408
    I can certainly live with that.
    CR is not the only game (opinion) in town.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    It's not about bashing Hyundai, just keeping it real. Toyota is the move. Hyundai is still a work in progress.

    If Toyota drops the ball, which ain't happenin', Hyundai can see fight Honda and Nissan, and GM for it. That's fine by me. ;)

    DrFill
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Sorry you are Hyundai bashing. Want to keep it real then I'll say that Toyota is rather dull, uninspiring and slightly over priced. Hyundai on the other hand is on the move and will likely get my business again.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    interest for a while but I saw better than spending on them.

    In retrospect, I am more than glad I went with a '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. It has the options I want, the pricing I want and the driving excitement and stately good looks that I'm seeking when buying a car.

    I look at other people's Toyota's that I was once interested in and don't see a car that I would be happy with for an extended period of time.

    Hyundai and Kia also make cars that give me a lastingly good deal and investment of time and money. Not an appreciating investment but an investment that holds my interest and is fun to drive and also gives me the options and amenities I'm look looking for. "Driven to Thrill" is right.

    The paltry Warranty of a Toyota, Honda and Nissan don't really pull my interest over to them, either. The Warranty of Hyundai, Kia and Mitsubishi shows that they have confidence in their engineering and manufacturing teams to make rigs that will hold up and keep their owners satisfied and not lose them(the carmakers)money in the long term. Simply brilliant business investments, these Long Warranties.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    While all you busy bashers of Toy, Hyundai, or any of the others are so happily focussed doing your oneupmanship thing, there's a very ominous situation on the horizon you really should be much more concerned about.
    Ah, yes, you say, but getting the "last word" in these forums is so important, n'est-ce-pas?
    What I'm talking about is a development which ALL carmakers (North America, Japan, Korea, and Europe) really "fear", as opposed to "fearing" one another.
    Toyota "fearing" Hyundai, or visa versa isn't the issue boys and girls.
    That's nothing compared to the real "fear".

    What is this ominous development you ask??

    C H I N A !!!

    Yes, China. A low (the lowest) cost producer which currently has the attention of ALL the big players in the car business elsewhere in the world.
    Example--in the early 90's, GM recognised it had to do business in China, and it chose Buick as a good model to make and sell there. Well and widely known marque--lots of prestige, etc.
    Right now folks, Buick makes and sells 150,000 units (and skyrocketing!!) per month there--and only sold 70,000 units (and declining!!) in NA the same period!! Furthermore, Buick offers 7 models there, as opposed to 2 in NA.
    The Chinese auto market is ballooning at double digit rates as more and more middle class develops there.
    Buick, right now is an endangered species in NA (remember Oldsmobile??), and could disappear soon--but not in China!!
    What that illustrates is the TREMENDOUS market potential in China, and the TREMENDOUS opportunity to manufacture there at a low, low cost.
    All manufacturers recognise this and are scrambling to get a manufacturing foothold in China.
    All I can say is...just watch!
    All these NA manufactures with ultra high cost operations all over NA are VERY LIKELY to be way over capacity in a few years as this Chinese manufacturing capacity matures, and they start shipping all our beloved NA, Japanese, Korean, and European models back to us at a much lower cost!!
    Now that's something to be afraid of!!!!!!!!!!
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