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I think this trend will continue and Kia and Hyundai will continue on in an upward quality trend. Look at where they've gotten so fast. Also, long-term quality for Kia and Hyundai, what new reports are there available. My own Kia experience has been quite good and I've read bushelfuls of them on the net but people generally like to see reports like this one just released to grow their knowledge tree on regarding a particular make.
I don't think that Toyota sales will falter much at all throughout 2007 and beyond that I don't see any profit to going that far down the road right now. Their process is working but ramping up production and release of new product has taken a very noticeable toll on Toyota quality the last year and a half or so. Remember, this was the Toyota purchase case for a long time. Buy Toyota because they're the best. That is no longer true. Also, their Warranty is weak. Not a good combination if it was my money being spent on a new rig.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I once worked for a company that made small appliances that other companies put their name on and sold as theirs. The owner had two of the toasters they made for two different companies sitting in his office. Actually they were the same toaster but with a different shell and name on them. He also had the CR reports on them, complete opposites.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Unfortunately the facts don't support your opinion.
That organisation may not always say what You or I want to hear or think it should, but over the years it has done good service to the consumer, as have other agencies such as JD Power Associates and Strategic Vision, to name a few.
I think it's unfair and unwarranted to just arbitrarily dismiss them as being irrelevant or whatever, just because saying so supports our own personal view of any issue.
That said, I would like to complement Iluvmysephia1 on that excellent post no. 1124, above. It is a balanced and objective view of this forum's topic. I agree with most of it--the only exception being the part about Toyota's warranty being "weak". This may or may not be the case, however if longer warranties become a competitive issue in the future, Toyota won't be far behind I'm sure.
Toyota: 3/36k bumper-to-bumper, 5/60k powertrain, no roadside assistance.
Hyundai/Kia: 5/60k bumper-to-bumper, 10/100k powertrain, 5 years roadside assistance.
There are several other automakers with longer warranty terms than Toyota, including GM, Ford, Suzuki, and Mitsubishi.
Draw your own conclusions as to the relative weakness (or not) of Toyota's warranty. I have. Given two cars with equivalent utility and price, I'll take the one with the longer warranty. Just another reason for people to choose Hyundai over Toyota, as other factors such as quality and performance become closer.
Why is it so difficult to accept that some people will not like a certain source of information. I am sure if we took a poll some would not like CNN and others would not like Fox News. Why is it so important that CR be accepted as a good source of information? If you had spent a large portion of your income as I did to buy a camera touted as a best buy, only to find out they had never tested the camera. Maybe you would not trust them either. If everyone was totally objective, (as you claim to be) not sharing any opinions on this forum, it would die of boredom. A good Forum such as Edmund's is where people can share ideas and Opinions in a civilized debate. Do you think we would have 1129 posts so far if everyone agreed?
Now to get onto Toyota warranties. My conclusion is that most Toyotas do indeed have longer than 3/36 warranties. It is an additional $2000 on the price. The sale is not closed until they scare you into buying the extended warranty, with stories of $1000 parts failing 15 minutes after the regular warranty has expired. It is just another way to overcharge for a car that is no better than the competition.
Read again what I said about that warranty statement--quote: "It may or may not be the case". I really don't know if it is or isn't and I said so.
I also said that if longer warranties become a competitive issue, I was sure Toyota would get on the bandwagon too. I'll be willing to bet serious money on that.
One more time on the CR issue. It's not really fair to completely denounce any agency by saying something happened to you personally that caused you grief and therefore CR is worthless. These agencies actually do service to consumers--that's a fact.
That's all I said. I wasn't saying that everyone isn't entitled to an opinion, or that disagreement on any issue is wrong, or that not trusting CR is bad. I just said the facts don't support a complete dismissal of anything they do. And it's true!
Remember, this is the internet folks. I just take all I read with a large dose of salt.
If you want to see some rock-throwing, I suggest you look at some of your recent posts.
I guess a 5 year warranty is fine for the average owner. Since I tend to keep my vehicles for 10 years, Hyundai's 10 year warranty fits me better than Toyota's 5 year warranty.
Just to note, that the current trend for Hyundai is DOWN, not up. Are you saying you think this is just a blip that will be quickly reversed? In that case, I would tend to agree, although I wonder as someone else did whether this was caused by one new model in particular. This study asked consumers about November/December purchases, right? Which means IIRC, that Veracruz would not show up as it was not available yet. And the new Elantra, when did that become available? I am losing track of time here...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The down "trend" for Hyundai consists so far of one data point. If the 2008 IQS continues the downward slope, then IMO it's a "trend". Toyota's decline in the IQS is over mulitple years, so I think that constitutes a "trend."
~alpha
Year / Hyundai / Toyota
2004 / 102 / 104
2005 / 110 / 105
2006 / 102 / 106
2007 / 125 / 112
Also note that over the past 4 years, Hyundai has topped Toyota twice and Toyota has topped Hyundai twice.
So if these are the trends, what would we predict from Toyota and Hyundai on the IQS in 2008?
Did we use it? Yes. On what? Throttle Body stuck shut... about 3 months ago, at 76K miles(now at 85K,in less than 3 years), they paid the tow and repairs, arond 1,100 dollars... saved about 220 dollars over all, But, prior to this, a few weeks earlier, we needed a new thermostat( 20 dollar+ tax part)... put in by Toyota, over a few hours, ended up costing the spouse(on her way to work, car was acting up, had no choice but to stop at Toyota/Scion, and hope it was something under warranty), and it was over 200 dollars. Basically, with what we saved on one repair, figuring in 880 we paid for the warranty, subtracing this 200+ deal we paid for.... we are about even right now, maybe 5 dollars ahead of the game!?
Here's hoping this thing lasts until 140K....(about another 2 years, or around pay off).... and then who knows?
Under Hyundai, the thermostat, we would have paid, also, but the warranty would have been "free"( well, they include it in the price, you can bet on that).
I dunno.
Whatever.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
As I mentioned before it doesn't surprise me at all that CR outsources some tests to other companies. The child safety seat evaluatin/debacle was a real low point for CR this year with them coming out and admitting to their outsourcing and the confusion/deception that occured with those seats.
The out sourcing of the child seat evaluations is probably only one of many.
As for their inconsistency of ratings--right on point. They are inconsistent. I view CR as writing their items (if they do it themselves, grin) like a presidential hopeful candidate, looking in the rear-view mirror to see what effect their writings will have on the subscriber (voter)renewals when the money day comes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I agree that results by any polling agency can be held up to criticism at some point.
Most, if not all of these agencies admit that up front when results are published, by stating the statistical accuracy of those results.
It doesn't surprise me either about agencies like CR outsourcing some of their tests. All of the consumer product rating agencies do that to a greater or lesser degree, for the simple reason they don't have resources to do a full spectrum of tests on every product reviewed. Fundamentally they are "reporting" agencies first, and some of their tests can be done by others when necessary.
I must also question your comment about "bias". If this does occur, and I doubt it does, it would be an extremely rare occurence.
It's a fact that CR and other automotive polling agencies have incredibly strict guidelines about bias of any sort. Their ethics codes are inviolate, and penalties for any breaches of their codes are dealt with severely. Maintaining an ironclad "credibility equity" is absolutely critical to their existence.
I was criticised for suggesting that CR and other agencies do good service for consumers, in the face of several other comments which I felt were excessively harsh.
It was inferred that I was denying others of their opinions to the contrary. That was also an excessively harsh response.
I fully respect others opinions; all I was trying to say was "don't shoot the messenger immediately when it does something perceived as incorrect".
My advice to those critics would be "First, try to understand---then try to be understood!"
Finally, my apologies for drifting off topic, but I felt obliged to speak to your good comments.
CR's methods are hardly polling methods. By sending out a questionnaire to some subscribers and then not following up on lack of returns, they essentially select cheerleaders by voice vote from the high school kids in the bleachers in the auditorium--popularity.
> if not all of these agencies admit that up front when results are published, by stating the statistical accuracy of those results.
Have you ever seen CR say, "We had 12 respondents on the Impala for 1998; 2 for 1999; 3 for 2000, 10 for 2001. And based on those meager returns of a convenience survey we give it black dots and red dots"?
"Our margin of error from these nonstatistically correct data is 90%"?
>It's a fact that CR and other automotive polling agencies have incredibly strict guidelines about bias of any sort.
Not to nitpick as some do, but do you have any kind of evidence or link for that incredibly strict guidelines about about bias in their comparisons? I can take almost any issue where they compare cars and read carefully between the data table and the text blurb they write and show lack of consistency which is due to bias.
>Their ethics codes are inviolate, and penalties for any breaches of their codes are dealt with severely.
Has someone lost their job at CR for comparison misrepresentation due to their bias? I don't think so. Politicians also have rules about conduct in Washington and Ohio; our exgovernor, a convicted criminal, was recently employed by University of Dayton!!!
JD Powers does a random survey. They follow up if a questionnaire is not returned. CR puts their survey out to some of their subscribers who choose or choose not to return the survey. How CR handles their collection and analysis of their (meager IMHO) data is obscured. JD Powers analyzes it and publishes summaries and sells the data to car makers; CR hopes to enlarge or retain subscribers by their results publication.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I know all this CR stuff is off-topic, but just a suggestion for those who seem to think CR is incompetent: please take the time to check on how they do their annual auto surveys, and the techniques they employ to ensure there is a statistically valid sample size (or they don't publish the results), before you knock them.
Please post your data showing they actually use statistically correct methodology. The response sounds as though they do a random survey with at last 900 responses for each car model giving a 2-3% error range. They don't. It's just random. Stand at the local supermarket on a Saturday morning and ask people their opinion of their cars; you'll have the same convenience survey info they get--perhaps better info.
My email is in my profile; read to find the split email without the "@." Or email my carspace; I sometimes see email there. I realize some have great confidence in CR and hate JD Powers and vice_versa>
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
used their findings only as one guideline of many to help choose a new or used auto. I do not have total faith in the reliability survey - too much room for error in my opinion, and far too general.
I have more faith in CR's own long term testing of each vehicle. I have the most faith in my own observations and driving experience.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But thanks for the stats. Re Toyota: For me, a varience of 2 defects per 100 vehicles across an entire brand over a span of 3 model years (2004-2006) is hardly worth noting.
Now, the increase from 104 to 112 is more troubling, indeed, and its definitely a valid statement that Toyota's IQS PP100 has increased over the most recent 4 years. Still, it remains at a good level, and well ahead of the industry average. (Note, too, this excludes Lexus which would lower the PP overall).
OTOH, Hyundai seems to be great in some years, very good in others, and barely ahead of the average this year. I wouldn't call it a trend. But its obviously not consistent performance, and, as noted, from last year to this, only DCX brands faltered to a greater degree.
Happy Motoring,
~alpha
Now, maybe we should get back to T vs. H.
Now, maybe we should get back to T vs. H.
Texas vs Hawaii? OK, I like Hawaii much better.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
OK, well, I have looked at CR and my own experience and found their research into Kia pathetic and if it isn't biased I'd like to know what it is. Sort of like the 2006 Super Bowl between the Pittsburgh Steelers and the Seattle Seahawks. Every time the Seahawks would start driving it was time to throw a flag and call offensive holding. I won't go in to that much more because it's not about car reviewing but it is the same type of thing. Bias. For that Super Bowl the refereeing crew chief was from Pittsburgh. Real bright, NFL, for picking that guy to lead. Yikes. BTW, if this observation is not true, then why has the NFL banned that referee crew from ever reffing another Super Bowl again? Their own safety? Could be. Gets a thinking person to thinking, though, and that Super Bowl was a modern day sports championship travesty of justice.
For CR, they don't do their research where I'd expect them to do. I look at the mag for information and when I see discrepencies in my own research and attained knowledge and their "last-minute biased fill-in schlop", I know something is up.
If you want to look at CR for guidance, have at it. I may look at it again for a power floor sweeper or a toaster. Seriously, that about it. I have seen them put an older model Kia Sephia picture(that looked like my '99 Sephia's picture) and they named it the 2002 Kia Spectra. To add insult to injury, CR then gave it the same review they gave my Sephia, with the same old shortcomings! And they are to be respected?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Check the Comments: Consumer Reports/JD Power Rankings discussion for more CR and JD Power talk.
Very simple. All Kia would have to do is make a $10,000,000 tax deductible donation to CR and voila' they got the greatest cars on the planet. Well maybe next to the best for 10 mil.
It shouldn't be looked at as a car buyer's bible, but should give you some idea what you'll experience. If less than half of buyers would buy again within two years of purchase, it should send up red flags. Word of mouth, personal experiences, and sources like Edmunds should round out a buyer's research.
backy, "Comments: Consumer Reports/JD Power Rankings" #52, 9 Jun 2007 6:50 pm
I like Hawaii, but I don't really want to be stuck on an island.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And they rated Toyota vehicles as the most reliable, while giving Hyundai a merdiocre at best company quality rating.
DrFill
In the same sense, Strategic Vision gave three awards to Hyundai (two to Kia), Hyundai has 2 cars as Top Picks from IIHS, none from Toyota on either.
I think you get my drift and see where I am going with this. To say Hyundai is mediocre is ludacrious, which isn't surprising with your obvious bias. Apparently, you are one of the few people that aren't recognizing Hyundai's upswing.
By the way, CR rated Hyundai 7th in the new car reliability you are talking about - ain't too shabby any which way you try to spin it.
This is more good news for Hyundai that's on a bit of a roll. The Veracruz just beat out the Lexus RX350 in a Motor Trend comparison.
If we were Toyota, we'd be sweating the sleeper company from South Korea right about now. Check out the full press release after the jump.
It is always the salesmen that are last to find out.
CR is not the only game (opinion) in town.
If Toyota drops the ball, which ain't happenin', Hyundai can see fight Honda and Nissan, and GM for it. That's fine by me.
DrFill
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
In retrospect, I am more than glad I went with a '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. It has the options I want, the pricing I want and the driving excitement and stately good looks that I'm seeking when buying a car.
I look at other people's Toyota's that I was once interested in and don't see a car that I would be happy with for an extended period of time.
Hyundai and Kia also make cars that give me a lastingly good deal and investment of time and money. Not an appreciating investment but an investment that holds my interest and is fun to drive and also gives me the options and amenities I'm look looking for. "Driven to Thrill" is right.
The paltry Warranty of a Toyota, Honda and Nissan don't really pull my interest over to them, either. The Warranty of Hyundai, Kia and Mitsubishi shows that they have confidence in their engineering and manufacturing teams to make rigs that will hold up and keep their owners satisfied and not lose them(the carmakers)money in the long term. Simply brilliant business investments, these Long Warranties.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Ah, yes, you say, but getting the "last word" in these forums is so important, n'est-ce-pas?
What I'm talking about is a development which ALL carmakers (North America, Japan, Korea, and Europe) really "fear", as opposed to "fearing" one another.
Toyota "fearing" Hyundai, or visa versa isn't the issue boys and girls.
That's nothing compared to the real "fear".
What is this ominous development you ask??
C H I N A !!!
Yes, China. A low (the lowest) cost producer which currently has the attention of ALL the big players in the car business elsewhere in the world.
Example--in the early 90's, GM recognised it had to do business in China, and it chose Buick as a good model to make and sell there. Well and widely known marque--lots of prestige, etc.
Right now folks, Buick makes and sells 150,000 units (and skyrocketing!!) per month there--and only sold 70,000 units (and declining!!) in NA the same period!! Furthermore, Buick offers 7 models there, as opposed to 2 in NA.
The Chinese auto market is ballooning at double digit rates as more and more middle class develops there.
Buick, right now is an endangered species in NA (remember Oldsmobile??), and could disappear soon--but not in China!!
What that illustrates is the TREMENDOUS market potential in China, and the TREMENDOUS opportunity to manufacture there at a low, low cost.
All manufacturers recognise this and are scrambling to get a manufacturing foothold in China.
All I can say is...just watch!
All these NA manufactures with ultra high cost operations all over NA are VERY LIKELY to be way over capacity in a few years as this Chinese manufacturing capacity matures, and they start shipping all our beloved NA, Japanese, Korean, and European models back to us at a much lower cost!!
Now that's something to be afraid of!!!!!!!!!!