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June 1st has them all.
Suzuki, Kia, Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, had major(and maybe all of them, iirc) Record sales this May!
the first 4 I mentioned did, and Civic had best sales ever(1 month?).
Also, Toyota sold over 24,000 Prius' in One Month, a Record!
Not sure about the rest, as , well, I do not consider them for purchases due to them being 100 miles away, or whatever, too far(Mazda is about 70 miles, and the next one 75-80 away. 40 is too much really, but Kia, Hyundai, Toyota, Honda are within this range, at least 1-2 dealerships, maybe more). Mitsu? Nice stuff, not interested(anymore).
I noticed Scion is down, all 3 vehicles, and for the year vs 06, too?
Have a good one!
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/06/01/050165.html
Not starting anything. It's a question I really want to know the answer to.
BTW, Toyota sold as many Camrys in May (50k+) as Hyundai has sold Sonatas THIS YEAR (52k). Corolla also set an record (45k), as a 5-year old model. Prius will sell 200k this year.
DrFill
Like I said, to be 100% truthful, I don't know what we will buy in 2-3 years.
I check out all competitors these days.
take care/not offense.
Nobody is more acutely aware of that than Hyundai. That's one of the main reasons I bought one. All the signs pointed to Hyundai being serious about competing with the best on every level. When a corporation lays it all on the line to improve their product, their image, and put butts in the seats, you can't go far wrong.
drfill,
That only proves there are a lot of uninformed buyers out there, not how great Toyota is.
Just kidding, of course, but that's the same type of argument you use to put down Hyundai.
Please don't think I'm a Toyota basher or hater. I have owned 2 Toyotas, and still have 1.
I beg to differ. Statements like that are merely speculative at the best of times.
The ONLY thing proven by those stats is that Toyota outsold Hyundai by more than 10 to 1 in that month.
Now that ratio could change in future, but Hyundai has a LONG way to go.
Like I said earlier, if automakers like Hyundai can deliver consistently on promises of value, quality, reliability, etc., then they have a good chance.
At present, Hyundai hasn't been at it long enough to build sufficient equity in those key attributes.
I'm not in the market right now, but would consider Hyundai if I was.
BUT--and that's a big "BUT"--I would look for consistency over several years before making any decision.
Hyundai is in this big rush to be something it's not.
Love takes time.
DrFill
With your permission.
DrFill
And that means what? Only that they sell more nothing more, nothing less. Toyota really has nothing over most other car makers except an image. Once people realize that Toyota has nothing to distinguish themselves. Who knows what the auto industry will look like in 20 years.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Absolutely right!!
First and foremost, Toyota is among a select few automakers which has consistently delivered on promises.
THAT really counts--it's part of the "image" you speak of but buyer's overall perception goes much farther--by a long way.
Secondly, Toyota's overall owner satisfaction measurement is, and has been consistently higher than most--especially in comparison to the domestic automakers (unfortunately!
Manufacturing efficiency,dealer network, business captalization, research and development, model selection, value, reliability, resale----and so on have been consistently top drawer for years now.
Pretty hard to beat that combination--at least in the short term!!
Sorry to disagree with you, but the business case reality is clearly in Toyota's favor. They're way ahead in the game, and it's a lot more than just "image"!!
What promises might I ask? My sister is a Toyota loyalist and her cars go back for issues more than any car I have ever had.
Toyota's overall owner satisfaction measurement is, and has been consistently higher than most--especially in comparison to the domestic automakers (unfortunately! ).
That can be more a factor of perception than reality. My sisters current ride goes back for some issue every 15K miles or so yet she is very satisfied with the reliability and quality of the car. My guess is that its because its a Toyota. When my car had its first issue at around 120K miles she commented that that what I get for buying that make of car. I swear that if everything Toyota makes would fall apart after two blocks she would still be singing the praises of Toyota.
Now while this is not what every Toyota owner is like I would say that it is a factor (I know a few other Toyota fans like that).
Manufacturing efficiency,dealer network, business captalization, research and development, model selection, value, reliability, resale----and so on have been consistently top drawer for years now.
I personally think that Toyotas Model selection is somewhat dull. I really don't think the value is there as I can get comparable cars for less. Reliability with most cars is right up their with Toyota and statistically its all about the same. The resale value of the car is eliminated by the initial extra cost. When you really look at it in an unbiased way Toyota really doesn't have anything to make it any better than anyone else.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You may or may not like Toyota for whatever reason, but Toyota's successes don't reflect your sentiments or your experiences.
It takes a whole lot more than simple "perception" to do what Toyota has done in the marketplace.
The Toyota story is one of unquestionable success in the business world today.
Harvard Business School (and many of the best of the world's best schools) uses the Toyota formula as a benchmark in all facets of the automotive business--manufacturing, sales, marketing, profitability, etc..
Toyota, whether you agree or not, reshaped and re-invented the business.
They created a whole new paradigm.
Most other car companies have emulated the Toyota formula and are "on the bandwagon" now.
Some of them wish they had done so sooner. We all know who they are.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My, my!!
How the tables have turned.
GM is now copying Toyota--as are the others!!
True! When it comes to purching big ticket items, people have a strong herding instinct. Like a herd of buffalo, it takes them a while to turn around. People are also a little lazy about researching, and a lot unconfident in their own decision making process.
A few people, perhaps a lot of Hyundai buyers, are not herding animals. They are savvy about business, and savvy about automobiles. They have an ability to use clear logic, and recognize a good thing when they see it.
Hyundai is in this big rush to be something it's not.
True! That's called "change". It's also called "improvement". Toyota built an empire on becoming something it wasn't.
Love takes time.
Thank you for saying "love". Some of the world's worst buying decisions are based on "love". Love is sort of the opposite of logic. Love comes from the emotional part of the brain, not the logical part. It can lead to impulsive buying, and really getting screwed. If you love something, you are very likely to ignore flaws, price, and even need.
That is definitely something I am not willing to do.
With so much quality out there these days one would have to be a fool not to shop around.
It's not as hard to catch up when your competitor starts slipping.
When you tout Toyota as having a "very low" 8.7 rating,I caution you not to overstate your case.
First of all, your claim isn't quite correct--"very low" would be much lower than that. Suggesting that rating is "very low" is an embellishment.
Secondly, the statistical validity of the data you're quoting is poor--the Camry which you hold up to criticism has a sample size of 358 reviews which is three times higher than its nearest competitor. Statistically, any comparison with such lower samplings is just out to lunch.
Thirdly--take a look at some of the ratings. There is so much polarization there that it makes one wonder where some of the decidedly low ratings are coming from. Are they different ratings by different people, or the same people rating multiple times?
The fact that there are 3 times as many respondents would in my mind give the survey a better chance at being accurate. Aside from the few salesmen that go in and post all 10s on the surveys, I would say most people are honest about the car they buy. Edmund's does review and kick out duplicate posters from my understanding.
That aside I only know two people with 2007 Camry's, they are not happy with them. So your acquaintance experience may differ. I prefer reading Edmund's reviews by real people, rather than looking at colored dots in a magazine I consider less than truthful.
"Comparitively Low" or "Low for a Toyota" probably would have been better terms. Still noteworthy, since Toyota is expected to be mid to high 9s by some.
Toyotas do tend to be "snoozeboxes" and without the reliability image, they don't have much to fall back on except having the most hybrids of any manufacturer. Then again, that might be WHY they're putting so much money into hybrids, as their quality has been slipping enough for people to notice (and at the same time, everyone else has also been catching up).
Bingo! All they need is to hear a family member say buy Toyota or see a commercial about "moving forward" or...who knows what? Point is is that they don't have confidence in theirselves to find out and make a solid decision about buying a new car. It is really not rocket science. Perhaps Boeing jetliner science, but not rocket science...please!
Take your blinders off...even my current favorite Mitsubishi is building solid and dependable rigs not to even mention Kia and Hyundai. All offer a 10 year, 100,000 mile Warranty! My '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS is solid and sure and I have yet to hear a rattle or roll or crackle or a speck. At idle it's so quiet...you can barely hear it purr like a kitten but it is purring like a kitten. Fact is, if something does go wrong the baby is covered by the Finbarr O'Neill Warranty.
Do you have to be a car enthusiast to learn that you can buy other cars beside Toyota's and Honda's? Yeeks.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
In the case of the new Camry it is squeaks, rattles and poor handling that is the over-riding complaint. I am sure some would say that is nit picking. Not if it happens with my new car.
The 2007 Highlander and Land Cruiser are even lower than the Camry. In the case of the Land Cruiser people expected an updated vehicle for $60K plus.
Please, you needn't put words in my mouth sir. That's not what I said; however if you insist on that analogy then your assumption about "car salesmen posting all 10s" tars you with the same brush!
That aside, at least you have confirmed your concerns re the veracity of those reviews you claim are beyond reproach, right?
"Would you say the same about those taking the survey for Consumer Reports?"
No, I would not say that, and neither could anyone, even you. Consumer Reports' surveys are done one-on-one by mail with each vehicle owner and are therefor almost 100 percent reliable--as opposed anonymous postings at this site which by definition cannot be deemed so.
"The fact that there are 3 times as many respondents would in my mind give the survey a better chance at being accurate........"
Following that analogy then, you have therefor confirmed that 3X smaller samplings are nowhere near as accurate. I would agree with that--in fact that's essentially what I said in my post!
"I prefer reading Edmund's reviews by real people....."
Well, if you feel strongly about that contention, then I've got a bridge you might be interested in buying!!
You got to be joking, I don't it believe for a second. If you want to trust CR that is your right. I have some beach front in AZ you might like to buy. Thinking a written survey is any more reliable than an online survey defies any logic I can think of. Especially when NO NAMES are attached to the CR surveys. Only dots. My dots are better than your dots. :P
If 10 people say they have squeaks and rattles in a 2007 Camry on Edmund's. I would think that would be something to think about before you buy one. With CR you have no idea what kind of problems you might face with any given car they rate.
How many 2007 Camry owners did CR question via mailer for their survey?
With your permission.
Get over yourself. Stop asking the same thing in three different posts when it's been posted already. See 932.
Have fun selling your precious and beloved Toyotas.
Yeah and we all know the mailing method is (almost) 100% reliable...
Please read CR and find out its procedures how these studies are implemented and executed.
Since its not a scientifically chosen sample the odds of it being anywhere near 100% reliable is practically zero.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Since its not a scientifically chosen sample the odds of it being anywhere near 100% reliable is practically zero.
I will wholeheartedly agree on this. I have participated in a number of CR owner surveys, and while they may be a somewhat useful (?) tool, they are by no means a scientifically reliable survey. To give you an idea what the survey is comprised of, there are only a few things a respondent is instructed about to consider when responding. They are:
1. If you had any problems with your car in the last year that you considered SERIOUS (their emphasis) because of cost, failure, safety or downtime, click the appropriate box(es) for each car.
2. INCLUDE problems covered by warranty. DO NOT INCLUDE 1) problems resulting from accident damage; or 2) replacement of normal maintenance items (brake pads, batteries, mufflers) unless they were replaced much sooner or more often than expected.
3. This area is where they ask you if you have had any problems. They ask about approx. 17 categories and ask you to check only if you have had any problem in that area, REGARDLESS OF THE PROBLEM'S SEVERITY!
I see some major problems with that approach. It invites personal bias by asking you to check a box only if you had a problem that you considered serious. There is no ability to report what the actual problem you had is.
Also, the aggregation of all possible problems into about 17 categories means that some minor problems (a loose electrical connection) are treated the same as a major failure (a malfuntioning engine control computer) in a given area and seriously affect a vehicle's rating and actually give a false picture of that vehicle's reliability.
That's my two cents!
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I know Edmunds more than likely does the best they can to control this, but it is a fact--it happens, and you know it!
Besides, you very clearly noted that salespeople can (and probably do) appear in these same sites with superlatives about their preferred product, and negatives about the "other guy".
I agree with that probability 100 percent.
So, I guess we agree to disagree.
Incidentally--that waterfront propery in Arizona isn't so far fetched. There's talk about the next big quake in Calif., right?
Now, about that bridge.............!!
Are you saying that CR does not have total anonymity in their surveys? As far as name changes, I have used the same handle on Edmund's since 1999. We all got dumped a while back and ended up with a 2001 start date. Try to find out who or how many people were contacted by CR for any given year and car. It is more like a cult than a consumer advocate.
I was a subscriber and advocate of CR in the 1960s. I soon found that many of their tests were bogus with many items recommended never tested. I was a victim of their shoddy testing on 35MM cameras. Have not trusted them since. Feel free to use them all you like. I will continue to jab at them every opportunity I get. I have a long memory of CR and Toyota.
Feel free to point out Toyota reliability. I will feel free to point out their lack of reliability. By the way your bias for CR is showing.
PS
That is the land I want to sell you!
I have caught them reviewing and rating Kia products and not keeping up-to-date with the information. Just small details like the right picture for the right car...and not refreshing their information for what is new about that particular model year. Yikes. Run from that publication like you might run from Tim Duncan's wayward elbow as he streaks for another one of those dorky "dish" shots he does. I would love it if the Spurs collapse big-time and drop the next three playoff games.
If those of you on Edmunds want to belong to the cult of CR have at it..they lost credibility with me about 5 years ago..indeed, later with me than with gagrice, but with the same results.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I still will look at CR and JD Powers though.
Btw, Edmunds Consumer Ratings and Review submissions get scanned by real people, and lots of the obvious shilling gets dumped that way. And there's a way to alert us there if you think a review is canned (or just plain wrong) so a review can be looked at more closely.
As far at the ratings, those do seem to lump together (anyone remember a story a month or two ago? - someone figured that when you have a 1 to 5 ratings system in place, most products will score a 4.2). Most newer cars on Edmunds tend to run in the low 9's it seems to me, and high 8's a few years out, so anything with a low "8" would be worrisome.
Some examples:
2005 Land Rover Freelander
6.3
2005 Kia Optima
8.9
2005 Toyota Corolla
9.0
2005 Hyundai Elantra
8.8
2005 Ford Explorer
8.1
2005 Chevrolet Impala
8.9
2005 Nissan Maxima
8.9
2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee
8.1
2005 Lincoln LS
8.4
2005 Honda Accord
8.9
Putting it mildly, that's innacurate---putting it bluntly, that's presumptuous and innapropriate.
Strange as it might seem to you, I really have no bias toward CR, Toyota, Hyundai, or any other entity insofar as automobiles are concerned.
I simply look at them as a business entity and no more.
I only want them to do well when considering investing in them.
In fact, in these forums I'm only interested in factual information, objectivity in presenting that information, and the perceived level of credibility of whatever source provides that information as it applies to businesses--in this case, carmakers.
When confronted here with something that doesn't reflect those precepts, I will speak to it, question it, and generally put it to a subtle test of credibility.
I respect other's opinions, but I don't hold a lot of credibility to what doesn't stand up to challenge on those terms.
Your arguments aren't up to the challenge IMO, unfortunately. The bias isn't just showing--it's pretty obvious you don't have much use for Toyota, CR, or anything that doesn't meet your approval!!
Isofar as Toyota is concerned, the only criteria I judge them on is business acumen.
Toyota, right now, is a leader in that regard, no matter what category you apply.
They rank right up there with the best of 'em.
That's not bias, it's fact.
Same thing applies to CR in the survey category, in spite of your personal feelings to the contrary.
From a business perspective they do OK too.
I'd invest $ in either one of 'em--and would assuredly come out ahead in the long run.
As a matter of fact, I have done just that, and right now I'm laughing all the way to the bank.
PS. I also own GM stock!! I think they'll do OK too in the long run.
Now, as to that Arizona land proposal......... I judge it about the same level of credibility as your advocacy.
Same thing applies to CR in the survey category, in spite of your personal feelings to the contrary.
From a business perspective they do OK too.
I'd invest $ in either one of 'em--and would assuredly come out ahead in the long run.
As a matter of fact, I have done just that, and right now I'm laughing all the way to the bank.
At least I am man enough to admit my bias for or against what I like or dislike. You should really examine your posts. You will find yourself less objective than most folks on Edmund's.
I do agree on Toyota being a good investment. Too bad they are not keeping the reliability of their vehicles in step with their profits.
Somebody, mistakenly, said people don't do there research, and that's why Toyota is selling so well.
Vehicles today are researched 10 TIMES MORE than they were 10 years ago. EVERYBODY has Internet access now. Everybody is reading Consumer Reports, and this site, for the latest information. An educated consumer is my best customer! :surprise:
I'll say it again. THIS WEB SITE, one you all know, and love, has stated that at least half of Toyota's line-up consist of best-in-class vehicles.
Toyota doesn't sell on warranty, or price. They sell on their reputation, which is well deserved, and the cars are as good as you can find.
Knocking Toyota is like knocking Trump, Dell, or Starbucks. You can do it. But we all know it's sour grapes. Don't playa-hate.
Hyundai needs to build their rep one car, one year, one sale at a time. That's it.
Hyundai has many years before they can think about Toyota.
Someone else is trying to say Toyotas don't have value, or features.
Scion Xb, for example, has STANDARD front, side, and curtain airbags, 4-wheel disc ABS, Brake assist, electronic brakeforce distribution, traction control, vehicle skid control, cruise, keyless entry, Pioneer sound system, tire pressure monitoring, 158 HP, and can hold 69.9 cubic ft of cargo.
That's value that Hyundai can't match that. :surprise:
Anyone who thinks Toyota is just a name, needs to research this site. Drive a car. Shop a little bit.
Homework assignment:
This weekend, drive a Tundra, then drive a Silverado. Hopefully you'll find a salesman who can show you the differences between the 2 best 1/2 tons on the market (there are many).
Hyundai dreams of having Toyota's lineup, much less sales. There is no comparison there.
Honda is the only real comp at this point, and Honda is sucking wind, while Toyota has some HUGE new product coming.
Toyota sales will EXPLODED NEXT YEAR. 10% increase (this year), will be nothing in comparison.
DrFill
Where do you see that? Can you provide a link? Here is what I saw when I looked at the cars Edmunds.com considers "most wanted" in their respective classes:
Toyota:
Most Wanted Compact Truck: Tacoma
Most Wanted Large Truck: Tundra (also "Most Significant Vehicle" for 2007)
That's it. Two vehicles.
Hyundai:
Most Wanted Sedan Under $15,000: Accent (tie with Kia Rio)
Most Wanted Sedan Under $30,000: Azera
Also two vehicles. Hmmm... where's the Yaris? Where's the Camry, or Avalon? Where's all the other vehicles you mentioned? If they are "best in class" in the eyes of Edmunds.com, don't you think they would have reflected that opinion in their "Most Wanted" awards?
(And Honda, which is "sucking wind"? They got four "Most Wanted" awards for 2007.)
BTW, as far as value goes, the Sonata has all the equipment standard that you mentioned for the xB (not a Pioneer head unit, but how important is that?). Sonata is a sedan, not a wagon, so it doesn't have as much cargo room of course. But it has more power and some features the xB doesn't have such as XM radio, and of course that great warranty. And I can get a new Sonata in my town starting at about $14,000. Now that's value.
So when people take your advice and research this site, they will find out that the editors of Edmunds.com think that Hyundais are just as "wanted" as Toyotas, and maybe that will encourage people to test-drive a Hyundai. Thanks for your efforts to encourage people check out alternatives like Hyundai before buying a Toyota. Maybe Hyundai's marketeers should send you a personal "thank you" note.
Looks like Toyota will have to replace them all. What a shame :sick:
Yea - sure thing bro.
A Toyota bashing stance is a pretty weak one.
As an objective referee with minimal bias toward any manufacturer let me be the one that says what 95% of folks say about Toyota vs. Hyundai - Toyota is the champ for a reason. If you don't like that fact, and you want to make up your own zings and arrows and post them here to make you feel better - Fine - but that does not change the facts that Toyota is the king and Hyundai isn't.
I haven't bought a Toyota in years (went with Honda, Nissan and Acura lately - all super vehicles BTW) but I won't deny their obvious and well deserved position as being the king of cars for the time being.
And that's OK.