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BTW, that is one reason I chose the Frontier over the Tacoma.
Which dealership are you at? I will want a test drive in the Veracruz.
Guess you know all about this discussion:
What is the GREENEST car out there?
sale of a few highly publicized hybrids
If you mean the Prius, it's been around since 1997 in Japan and in North America since 2003 and sales have gone mainstream. (Toyota Hybrid Sales Accelerate)
Also, iirc, Edmund's Editor's Most Wanted for 07 has a Rio/Accent, and an Azera, iirc, for there respective catagories.
Other than this, I am still gonna look at the Versa SL hatch, as a possible next car.
have a good one.
Now I understand. You make political and social statements with your wallet. I wish I was rich enough to do that.
I suppose I'm just as politically and socially conscious as the next guy. However, when it comes to spending big bucks for a car I must live with for 5-10 years, I turn pragmatic. I shop for "bang for the buck". That term can be misleading, because it entails much more than the price. If the Toyota dealer would have dropped his price by $3K, I would probably have been driving a Camry instead of a Sonata.
Toyota on the other hand is given accolades for the Prius being so green. When in reality Toyota only builds the hybrids to counteract their huge fleet of gas guzzlers.
Point in fact:
The new Tundra that Toyota hopes to sell 200k+ units. It gets worse gas mileage in each category than the main competition GM. It has crash tests that are not as good as the new PU offerings from GM.
The Prius may or may not turn out to be environmentally sound. Most of the hybrid models that Toyota offers are just performance cars to make the wealthy feel "GREEN". The latest the LS600h is a joke. It only gets ONE mile per gallon better mileage according to the EPA than its stable mate. You can buy a lot of Premium gas for that $20k add-on.
There is something morally wrong with spending $100,000,000 to try and convince a gullible audience that Toyota is green when it is not. You have to ask where do they make all the batteries for the hybrids? Would it be possible to manufacture them under our regulations in the USA? If a product cannot be made here it should not be sold here.
So I will cheer for any automaker that gives Toyota some competition. Go Hyundai!!!
Did you even read what I posted?
I consider Buick a better threat.
Buick is a better threat? Buick has quality cars, for the most part. Its scale, however, is nowhere near Toyota's level.
By the way, your beloved Buick is down 31% so far this year YOY. Should change, however, with the arrival of its new Lambda CUV.
Jeep 2006YTD: 144k
Jeep 2007YTD: 159K (+11%)
Mazda 2006YTD: 89K
Mazda 2007TYD: 100k (+10%)
Hyundai 2006YTD: 147k
Hyundai 2007YTD: 143k (-4%)
Your point? Read what I posted earlier. Try looking it at long term, maybe the past five years. Again, there were production issues you seemed to have missed. When you don't have the products to sell, doesn't mean your products are not in demand. The inventory days I posted earlier as of 5/1 indicated Hyundai is below industry average, meaning they are moving the units better than average, in 4th place, as a matter of fact.
Now there's a sure way to add "balance to any discussion!!
My only response to that is: "Compared to what??"
"My distaste for Toyota has little to do with their poor reliability"
Another example of "balance" perhaps?
So where do you find Toyota's reliability rating as "poor"?
Please enlighten.
"their management lying about steering problems in Japan".
"Lying" is a pretty strong word. Do we detect a bit of embellishment in your condemnation?
"It has to do with anti-trust tactics on hybrid parts suppliers."
Somehow, where you're going with this one is unclear--or is it another way of bringing "balance" to the discussion.
"It has to do with painting a "green" image using Hollywood celebs to carry their banner".
Using hollywood celebs, indeed!! How shameful to be using marketing tactics just like all the other guys!! Mygosh--what will Buick(Tiger Woods), Chrysler(Celine Dion), Honda(Mario Andretti) just to name a few,do next to scoop Toyota??
"green banner that any well informed environmentalist knows is a decoy to sell more gas guzzling SUVs and PU trucks. "
Yup, it sounds just like GM, Chrysler,and Ford to me--aren't their big V8 pickups best sellers??
" can tell you they are much more interested in selling a record amount of Tundras than Prius."
Now there's a profoundly wild statement if I ever heard one!! More of the "balanced" approach I assume?
Really now--that final statement re spending $100MM to "buy off all their environmental friends" really is over the top!! May I be so bold as to ask where this one comes from? :P
Or is that entire diatribe just a result of a Memorial Day celebration which got out of control?
Such as:
Lower mileage for Tundra compared to GM trucks.
limiting hybrid components being sold to Ford.
Manufacturing high pollution batteries in 3rd world countries.
If there were no lies, why the apology to the Japanese people?
The criticisms referenced could just as easily be applied to any other automaker.
Sorry, but IMO, you failed to make a case--just ain't no credibility in it.
It's called "unfair and unwarranted criticism".
My concern now is: "what's the motive?" It certainly isn't "balance".
Not only that, but how do those criticisms make the other badges better?
I guess all manufacturers do things which are a bit distasteful to many folks. Truth be told, I bet we don't know 5% of it. However, it's still silly to buy an inferior or over-priced car just because they play hardball in the business world.
Don't shoot yourself in the foot because of peripheral issues. Research, test drive, talk to unbiased owners, and buy something you can live with for several years.
That's quite often true--except in my case I'm neutral (no Toyota nor Hyundai).
I spoke out because I felt there was some injustice happening--and indeed there was.
I spoke out because I felt there was some injustice happening--and indeed there was.
Isn't it nice to not be a car salesman? That way, you can tell it like it is!
Last time I had anything whatsoever to do with car sales was in 1956. My father had a car dealership--I pumped gas and washed cars after school and on weekends!!
The dealership went broke that same year!!
Once upon a time, car salespersons had a bad reputation. Nowadays, I think there's more professionalism.
Now you see my point
Now you see my point
Wow - a guy that thinks car salesmen talk straight.
It's easy to spot a "car salesman". They sell, sell, sell their favorite make 24/7/365. They refuse to acknowledge any negatives about their favorite make, and refuse to acknowledge any positives on all other makes. Does that sound like a few people we know?
I asked a salesman a legitimate question "could you order me a Tacoma with esc.? He promptly replied "they have limited slip, you don't need stability control".
I promptly walked off the lot. I now drive a Frontier.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
That goes for Gagrice too.
Please say what you both have to say and don't skirt around the issue with innuendo.
As to your post, I can't say one way or the other who is or who isn't a salesman in this forum. To me it makes no difference.
I was once told I'd never make a good salesman--not enough BS!!
I'm not,nor have I ever been a car salesman, that's all I know for sure.
That said, it doesn't matter to me--car salesmen (or saleswomen) are entitled to post here as much as anyone else is I guess. Their business is none of mine (or yours!).
All I look for is objectivity in whatever is said.
One more comment--what has all this got to do with the topic anyway?
I think they underestimated your abilities
One more comment--what has all this got to do with the topic anyway?
Whether Toyota or Hyundai has the best line of BS to sell.
Nice!
I would ask the administrator to please remove a demeaning personal comment.
"NO WAY, TOYOTA IS BETTER!!!!!"
Oh wait, someone has changed the thread title on me, I must be in the wrong place. But you can't blame me, this is just like the old GM discussions all over again. :sick:
It is a little intriguing to see all the Hyundai fans coming out of the woodwork though (backy and iluv, of course, were always fairly vocal and frequent visitors). Hyundai's popularity has definitely picked up, something Toyota officials are most certainly aware of and thinking about.
But 150 posts haven't swayed me much in thinking the North American market is a cutthroat place for all large-scale automakers, and they all have to spend 110% of their time vying for their place and working their hardest to avert backsliding. Toyota and Hyundai too, no more or less than the others, which is why Toyota should just worry about ALL the competition, rather than a select few.
Well, maybe they can skip worrying about Chrysler. ;-)
I think the original remarks by the NA Toyota official were as much as anything to say that Hyundai had reached the threshold of being a "large" automaker, and therefore was a competitor to reckon with along with the other Big 5 (off which list Chrysler may shortly drop - their future is uncertain).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If you believe you were a victim of a demeaning comment, please accept my apology.
"NO WAY, TOYOTA IS BETTER!!!!!"
Don't confuse me like that...I thought I had clicked on the wrong thread. :P
Of course, these threads do point out that it's a VERY competitive market out there...no one can just sit and "coast" so to speak. GM already learned that the hard way, but Toyota might not have realized it yet.
20 years ago, had there been an Internet as it is today, GM and Toyota would have swapped places in that other thread, and it would probably be something like "GM fearing Honda?" or something here.
Now we talk about the Big 6, the market is TOTALLY crammed full, and no-one will ever again have the market share that GM once did. Indeed, the Big 6 is about to become the Big 7 if Hyun/Kia can get its annual volume to 1 million by 2010 as it hopes to do. And quality and reliability are evening out across the industry (with perhaps AHEM *Land Rover* lagging the curve!). :-P
Which is why rah rah comments about "legendary Toyota" or stories of one bad Toyota someone had 25 years ago are just as irrelevant to this thread as similar-themed stories are to the GM threads. On a macro scale, individual owner experiences are not going to dictate the outcome of this giant race, IMO. It's too big, the differences between all the players aren't enough. Even if you take away Toyota's reliability rep, what you are left with is an assortment of fairly decent vehicle models that could grab a decent share of sales, as decent as anyone else's. It is such a homogenous market - NO automaker stands out in terms of design very much, I think.
Perhaps when the buying public learns this lesson that many of us here at Edmunds already know, the NEW battle will begin, maybe ten years hence. I think that will either be a battle of styling or of marketing - as cars evolve to transportation pods regulated from automated hubs and people have less and less involvement in the actual DRIVING, I can't imagine what else automakers might use to differentiate their wares.
Well, except rebates and low prices - I guess in any industry those will always grab you some sales.
OK, rant over. My apologies.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
If I don't come directly to the point, someone is offended. If I do come directly to the point, someone else will surely be offended. Help me out here! :sick:
I wasn't talking about REAL car salesmen. I was talking about people that ACT like car salesmen. Some people never admit negatives about their favorite make, and they never acknowledge positives about other makes.
Here's a tip for you OldGuy: The little smiling car thingies mean someone is joking. Lighten up, we agree 99% on everything.
The fact is that many Toyota owners have most likely had similar experiences driving Toyota's. If one hasn't owned a Toyota or Hyundai, well, I am not sure you can necessarily rely on companies like JDPower or Consumer Reports as the objectively decisive authority on owners experiences. But who else is there? I trust my experience with Hyundai's I purchased in the 90's more than I trust what any publication says about my experience. People gain much of their perception about a vehicle today from these publications. Unfortunately, perception is just not necessarily reality so it's hard to really know how good a Hyundai is unless you owned one or talked to a number of owners. Having owend 3 of them, and my father owned one and brother owned one, I am here to report to you that they are much more reliable and durable than most perceive. So if Hyundai's are actually very reliable and durable, which they are in my experience, one of the reasons people don't buy them is the is a negatively perceived 'brand image' or a negative'prestige factor'. Toyota has spent billion$ more than Hyundai to get into what Demming calls the consumers 'quality world'. Hyundai is now spending $600 million annually on marketing so they are eventually going to enter the consumers 'quality world' where their brand image and quite possibly the 'prestige factor' will improve. Oh and if the billion$ of dollars spent don't affect us, then why do they advertise? It works and if Hyundai continues to spend, spend, spend, as long as they are really improving their product to the point where people can sense it, they will eventually, IMO, be a contender with the tier one foreign automakers. And why has GM, Ford and Chrysler lost such huge amts of market share? Perception of Quality! People WHO ARE SWAYABLE believe, due to marketing and perception, that the foreign cars in question are better and higher in quality. Until the Big 3 can display improved quality, which I believe GM is doing with their new offerings and Ford is doing with some of theirs, people who are open to foreign cars are going to shop the foreign cars, Period!
I am brand agnostic in my car buying. I've owned Toyotas, Hyundais, Hondas, Nissans, Dodges, Mazdas, and a Mercury, a Chevy, and a Mitsubishi. If a vehicle meets my requirements, I'll consider it. No matter what badge is on the trunk. And the less money I need to spend for a vehicle that meets my needs, the better. That is why I see Hyundai moving up in the market against Toyota. Hyundai offers quality, reliable vehicles for thousands less than comparable Toyotas. Why NOT consider Hyundai?
Earlier our resident Toyota sales rep posted his thoughts on the superiority of Toyota's lineup vs. Hyundais, to support his claim that Hyundai isn't competition for Toyota. Here is another view:
Accent: better overall than Yaris (e.g., edmunds.com and CR reviews)
Elantra: better overall than Corolla (e.g. C/D's review)
Azera, Sonata, Santa Fe: very close overall to comparable Toyota offerings (Avalon, Camry, RAV4), but thousands less.
Veracruz: better overall than Highlander (e.g. reviews in which the Veracruz is compared favorably to Lexus--not Highlander)
Tiburon: well, Toyota doesn't do "sporty" anymore ala Celica, so there's no comparison.
Tucson: no direct Toyota competitor.
So in the market segments in which Hyundai competes with Toyota in the U.S., Hyundai has very competitive offerings at a significantly lower price, and with a significantly longer standard warranty. Now Hyundai just needs to get more people to consider their vehicles instead of making the default choice for Toyota (or Honda).
I myself am a fan of many brands Japanese, but after hanging around Edmunds for five years, I take everything here with a grain, no a pound, of salt. IMO it's best not to let affection for one or a small group of brands get you ticked off when people attack them, because the discussion gets kinda boring. That was my point with my "GM IS BETTER, NO TOYOTA IS" post. :-)
The Doc has become almost intolerable since he took that Toyota sales job. Mostly, though, he is just expressing a very strong opinion about Toyota. If he presents what he says as fact, we know differently in many cases, eh?! ;-)
I don't take published reviews as anything more than one person's opinion of comparative models, and I don't form my own opinion until I have researched the stats and driven them both.
Having said that, I will agree with you on Accent over Yaris. The new Elantra SHOULD, hopefully for Hyundai, be better than the ages-old Corolla. The old Elantra, IMO, was not. I am waiting for the new Corolla to come out next winter, then I will be driving them both back to back.
I also agree with you on Azera and Sonata, close enought to comparable Toyotas to make one think "why spend another $2000 (or more) on the Toyota?". I have not driven the new Santa Fe, the old one I didn't like - it was slow, the engine was loud and sounded coarse, it fell short in several areas. I want to drive the new SF, might drive the new Veracruz at the same time.
And don't forget, the new Highlander is due out shortly, so that's another back-to-back we owe to ourselves after June.
In the larger view, Hyun/Kia will be a real contender when it reaches the million-sales mark in the U.S. Partly, the remark about keeping an eye on them was spurred by their very rapid rise in sales in the early 00s, but as they have since levelled out, it will be interesting to see if they can make their million sales goal by 2010.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'll try (to help you out)...........
"Integrity" is often defined as being true to yourself and others. IMO, it's best to be straightforward and direct when making comment on any issue--rather than using vague or implied inference to make a point. Risk of offending is about the same either way, but the better approach is to prioritise "integrity".
That's why I've (a) favored objectivity in these forums; (b)challenged subjective comments; and (c) avoided taking sides.
"The little smiling car thingies mean someone is joking."
That may be so, but in this instance it wasn't joking. The comment about "BS" was personal, and IMO, attacks like that reveal the true nature of the person who made them.
But..having been around for a lot longer than most, and having seen most of what this world has to offer in three wars, four continents, and a dozen cultures, I think I know the difference between insult and altruistic apologies for same.
Now the question--for the record and on topic......Does Toyota have anything to fear from Hyundai??
Answer....Probably not "fear" as such, but the automotive business is so competitive that not keeping a close eye on the competition is s sure recipe for failure.
And it's going to get tougher in the future!!
Right now, Toyota has the momentum but Hyundai is a hungry Asian Tiger.
In a few years....who knows?? Give Hyundai a bigger share and a stronger dealer network, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them as a major player.
I agree, although often published reviews are the consensus opinion of multiple people, and they are usually backed by objective data. But I think it's helpful when claiming that one car is better than the other to mention third-party substantiation, rather than just, "It's better because I say it's better!".
In the real world, the thing that tells what the best choice is for 17 million auto buyers a year is the sales. And often the "best" is actually the least expensive, or some combination of factors in which price figures heavily.
Therefore, when we take the overview of how well Toyota and Hyundai compete with each other, rather than model comparisons where everyone will have their own opinion, good for 1 vote out of 17 million per year, perhaps the best we can do is point out the clear winners or losers, models that not only meet with virtually unanimous approval or disapproval but which are also in the sales cellar (or attic).
I will go on record as saying that of the current models neither H nor T has any models that fall in that category. I think they are all solid midpack players, reflected in their solid sales.
And if they are solidly midpack, then working on staying midpack or better is where they should be focused, and obviously that will keep them up with ALL the competition, not just one particular brand.
One thing I could understand a decade ago, but don't really get now, is why Camry sells so well. A decade ago, it was the only midsize sedan at its end of the spectrum: smooth quiet ride, with no performance capability whatsoever. Back then, as everyone else was trying to sell "performance", Toyota was making a killing selling a bread and butter, comfy family sedan. But now there are more entries in that end of the market.
Actually, I DO expect Toyota to lose a lot of Camry sales to the Sonata in the next few years.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think the reasons so many Camrys are sold today are: 1) a long-time reputation for quality and reliability; 2) good performer in ways that count for most buyers of family sedans (i.e. most family sedan buyers favor a smooth ride over razor-sharp handling); 3) a large dealer network; 4) large numbers sold to fleets (compared to, say, the Accord). Note that Hyundai has only two of those advantages, for the Sonata: good performer, and large numbers sold to fleets. It has other advantages, such as price and warranty, but those aren't enough to attract the people who think Toyota (and Honda) walk on water.
Yeah, but that's exactly the advantage I think Toyota will lose in the next few years. The growing pains since '02 ARE going to haunt Toyota five years from now. And by then all the consumer mags will be pointing out that there is little reliability difference across the spectrum of large automakers.
Now, Kia has been lagging in some of those surveys, even as Hyundai moved way up, so that is something Hyun/Kia would do well to work on. Five years from now, that work will pay off in spades.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
However, no one should dispute the innovation, both in terms of development, production and product, that Toyota has brought to the automotive industry. I will also tell you that Hyundai, for a company several times smaller than Toyota, has problems that make Toyota's pale in comparison. Consider some recent facts about the company;
1) In less than a year its market capitalisation has fallen from 7th to 16th in the auto world (clearly the market senses troubles ahead).
2) In the same time period its sales have stalled in NA whilst growth has slowed/stopped in almost all major global markets. (stright from the horses mouth http://worldwide.hyundai-motor.com/). In particular witness the 30% plunge of April sales in the fast expanding Chinese market.(http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/Engnews/20070521/640000000020070521140128E3.html)
3) Profits have fallen by over 10% in the Q1 of this year.
4) The comapany has continually shown to be unable to control its workforce which will continue to affect competitiveness.
Far worse than these all these problems is the corporate culture at Hyundai AG. Sure their vehicles are finally respectable and competitive (with the warranty/value remaining the largest/only? innovation), but they have already adopted a "we have a nothing to learn from anyone else" attitude.
At best this indicates arrogance, at worst stupidity. They continue to show a lack of understanding of the market place, blaming and even firing US staff after failing to achieve unrealistic targets. They are sometimes referred to as impatient, a view I happen to currently share; (http://members.forbes.com/global/2007/0604/043.html).
Contrast this with the attitude of Toyota. They continue to have discussions with Ford and GM leadership whilst endorsing a desire to learn and understand the markets in which they compete. Their response after overtaking GM in Q1 sales was mature and pensive at a time when a lot of companies gloat about every small gain: http://www.forbes.com/logistics/2007/05/03/toyota-may-qanda-biz-logistics-cx_rm_0503may.html.
Toyota has become internationally competitive by developing a corperate culture that, whilst summarised by a Japanese philosophy (Kaizen), is certainly not unique to (or based upon; there are lots of unsuccessful Japanese companies) one particular nation, and is certainly one that can be appreciated by all. The fact that Toyota acknowledges Hyundai as a potentially serious threat is more a testament to the character of Toyota than that of Hyundai.
As much as Toyota is respected, or even loved, there will of course be many who hate it. This is not unique to success in industry or buisiness; I do not find it ironic that the most loved (and one of the most influential) books in the world is also the most hated (the bible) whilst the same could be said of global opinion of the US.
p.s. I just wanted to even out the debate and I personally have a lot of respect for Hyundai, despite the unintentional effect of Hyundai fans here testing it, but for all its improvements and strengths it is, like Toyota, far from being a perfect company. A top 5 automake in 2010? Probably, but I would not bet on it.
As a final thought much of my argument was based on what was said by a man who has done buisiness around the world (including S. Korea as recently 2005) for over 50 years and has always been realistic in assessing a company.
* Where did you get the idea that Hyundai thinks "we have nothing to learn from anyone else"? Where do you think they picked up their quality control processes--did they come from osmosis? Which automakers do you think they studied carefully to improve their vehicle lineup over the past few years? (Hyundai execs admit they looked at Toyota/Lexus, BMW, and Audi among others.) Where did they get their current marketing exec? (Hint: it's someone who has done a good job of building a brand image for other car companies).
* Why is it unusual for a company president and other employees to be fired because the company did not meet its sales goals? (Even though those goals proved to be unrealistic--which they often are, in my experience!)
* How was Hyundai non-collaborative when they forged an alliance with DaimlerChrysler and Mitsubishi to design "world" engines? (How was Toyota collaborative when they clamped down on their suppliers who were also supplying Hyundai?)
You do make an excellent point on Hyundai's labor troubles. They need to get a grip on those, or it will be their undoing, just as the cost of labor/benefits has shackled the Big 3.
Toyota's slow and steady-as-she-goes approach to growth has stood it in good stead for a very long time. While quality slipped the last five years, the growth they experienced was not a result of them pushing demand, but rather one of them rapidly expanding NA production and import volumes in order to meet pent-up demand. In future, I think they should allow increasing demand to push prices and profits up rather than letting quality concerns hurt the Toyota rep.
By contrast we have Hyundai, whose MSRPs have jumped up noticeably in the last few years, although they are still below those of Toyota and Honda. In addition we have this (IMO) misguided attempt to launch a luxury line in the U.S., barely ten years after their resurgence, and when their rep as a mainstream manufacturer of quality automobiles still has not been fully secured (hence the prices that are still lower than the competition, and a warranty that is longer).
I have not checked recently, but the Azera has mostly been a very slow seller, and now they propose to launch a model well above it. If it has the Hyundai badge I think that will be its kiss of death, much the way the Subaru badge was for $30K cars and SUVs (and there's a small-volume carmaker with 35 years in the U.S. market, and even they couldn't make the upmarket move happen), and the VW badge was for $40K cars and SUVs (ditto). Hyundai may wind up being its own worst enemy at this rate.
If Toyota can keep its slow and steady attitude firmly in place, and finds itself a new edge for the coming decade (omething besides the reliability rep that will be passe in ten years), I think it will prevail in the battle for the heart of the market.
Meanwhile, Hyun/Kia should learn to pace itself.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I resent that remark! :mad:
My bombastic, one-sided, strong opinions were just as "intolerable" before my new position!
Actually, I DO expect Toyota to lose a lot of Camry sales to the Sonata in the next few years.
You could wait a few centuries, Camry won't be losing buyers to a Hyundai. The current Sonata came out before the 2007 Camry, and Camry sales never blinked. So much for wishful thinking.
In 3 weeks, haven't heard Hyundai mentioned once at the dealership. Apparently, few Toyota buyers aren't shopping Toyota vs. Hyundai. Shocking! :surprise:
I also agree with you on Azera and Sonata, close enought to comparable Toyotas to make one think "why spend another $2000 (or more) on the Toyota?".
Just one thing. You think they will lose $2k, or more, when they trade (Despite what these posters will tell you, the vast majority of people trade their vehicle within 4 years)? Right.
You used to be on our side. What happened? That's messed up, man.
DrFill
Yes, both Toyota and Hyundai have their issues to work out but considering how far Toyota has taken its brand, and what Hyundai has done in relatively short-term, bumps and scratches that come with the regular courses of businesses, whether caused internally, or by external conditions, they will work to hurdle over the obstacles.
"we have a nothing to learn from anyone else" attitude.
With all due respect, how did you come up with that baseless conclusion?
The fact that Toyota acknowledges Hyundai as a potentially serious threat is more a testament to the character of Toyota than that of Hyundai.
More so as to what Hyundai has achieved (that has allowed Toyota to acknowledge the serious threat)
A top 5 automake in 2010?
May happen before, as the sale of Chrysler could slide Hyundai from 6 to 5.
This should strength the brand:
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/05-30-2007/0004598567&EDATE=
For instance, the remarks you make here: we could wait centuries before Camry sales are lost to Hyundai. CENTURIES, Doc? That's a mighty long time, and I'm sure it's longer than Toyota will be selling the Camry. In fact, it may be longer than mankind has left on this planet at the rate we're going. ;-)
Now answer me this: why would you ever hear Hyundai mentioned at a Toyota dealership? Of course you wouldn't. I bet you hear a bunch about the competing Honda, and that's about it. Hondas and Toyotas are more expensive than comparable models for the most part, so customers at those dealerships have often limited their options to just those two.
Now what's all this about how I used to be on your side? I tell you what, and you can take it for whatever it's worth. I keep an open mind on the boards, and I can readily admit that other brands are catching up to Toyota in most respects. Reliability isn't this mysterious thing that can only be conjured up by the magic Toyota wand, and lots of other automakers are finding their way to it. That's why Toyota needs to have a new "edge" in the years to come.
That's me on Edmunds. In my driveway, 3 of the last 4 new ones have been Toyotas. The other was an Acura. Based on comparative drives, that's how it turned out every time. Toyota happens to design vehicles that suit my set of priorities. FWIW.
I have also driven a lot of Hyundais in the last few years. The last-gen Accent, Elantra, and Sonata were crapmobiles but seemed to be built to last (the leather in the Elantra GT notwithstanding). The stats have borne out the lasting part. The last Santa Fe was kind of icky, but not terrible. The new one may be all that and a bag of chips - I dunno, because my Hyundai drives are a little out of date. But I will say this, the last Hyundai I drove was by far the best (current-model Accent GT, or is it SE? The one with the big alloys and sport suspension), and it wasn't much newer than some of the others I drove. So Hyundai is improving fast. That's one of the reasons for Toyota to keep its eye on the South Korean tiger.
Here's a thought, maybe all of GM's investment in Daewoo will turn it into an Asian MONSTER that will knock Hyun/Kia on its butt and end the need for Toyota to worry. :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I too have been amazed at the slow selling Sonata. A great car, great price, but 10,000 units a month? Ouch.
Conversely, how the hell does Toyota sell so may Camrys? Are they really that appealing?
The American consumer is hard to understand.
That's my problem with Hyundai. If they were that strong to begin with, with this new line-up, their sales COULDN'T flatten out for ANY 18 month period. If the can't sell with a lower price, a bigger warranty, a couple of good quality surveys, and a new line-up, maybe they aren't so sweet after all?
They aren't ready. Maybe in 5 years. Maybe.
Think about it? Where's the word of mouth? Where are the sales? 18 months is a long time for excuses. Too long. :sick:
DrFill