2008 Honda Accord Coupe and Sedan

dpmeersman

This is the first time I seriously considered buying an Accord and the looks of the new sedan is what finally convinced me. I've always been in awe of Honda's engineering and reliability but always felt their designs to be safe, take no chances, offend no one and at the same time excite no one. Like it or not, and apparently you don't, the new style took some guts. Most people’s response when I tell them it's an Accord is WoW that's an Accord, it's about time they added some style. But styling is very subjective, and when you take a chance as they have you won't appeal to everyone. Just my $.02 on the sales numbers, I believe the combination of the economy and current gas prices are keeping sales of most vehicles mid size and up, very flat.

jimplogger

I have the 2008 EXL-V6. I got 28 mpg on a trip to Florida. I got 28 mpg on a trip to Virginia. I constantly get 24 mpg around town. On the trip to Florida and Virginia, I used the cruise control and drove bewtween 60-75 mph. I always use the mid octane gas. My only problem with this car so far is the uncomfortable seating.

cstiles

When you say you can get the "trip computer" on your 6spd to show over 20mpg, how are you doing that? I don't believe my 6spd gives me real time MPG readings. I wish it did. How are you getting real time MPG in your car?

cstiles

It's not just VCM (and the transmission difference). The V6 engine in the 6speed has its intake programmed differently to boost low end torque, so it is designed to get worse mileage in exchange for more performance. VCM is only a part of that equation. Again, note that the 6spd is rated 17/25 vs. 19/28 for the AT coupe. So it's more than VCM.

khoey

I have nav, and there is a trip computer. It gives you an average reading per full tank of gas as well as a real time MPG meter.

When I said I could get it over 20MPG I was referring to the average MPG on that particular tank of gas. On the meter I can see wild fluctuations depending on whether I am coasting, accelerating, etc. It's very helpful if you're trying to drive in a fuel efficient manner.

itochu

Reprogramming the engine intake to develop more torque at lower rpms does not necessarily = lower mileage. Better acceleration? Yes, but lower mileage at cruising speeds? No, final drive ratios being equal - and I do not know that.

Why would the 6MT need more lower end torque? The car does not have the benefit of the multiplication factor of a torque converter.

dpmeersman

Best site I've seen for detailed info on both drivetrains is:

http://www.zercustoms.com/news/2008-Honda-Accord-Powertrain.html

cstiles

Thanks! I do not have NAV, so that would explain it. I also wish my Accord would give me real time tire pressure readings as part of the TPMS.

cstiles

dpmeersman's link is helpful in explaining the difference. The VTEC valve gear is different on the 6speed...the variable valve timing can be set at the intake as well as the exhaust, and I read somewhere that the intake side of the VTEC system is unique to the 6speed, which increases air/fuel mixture to boost low and midrange torque. I do believe that this would negatively impact fuel efficiency, especially when coupled with a different (more aggressive) driving style that comes with the manual. Also, modern automatic transmissions can be programmed to shift at such precise points that they are often more efficient than manual transmissions controlled by the driver. If you look at MPG ratings for many modern cars that offer auto and manual options, the auto version often offers better fuel efficiency. That was not the case 5 or 10 years ago. My point was, VCM explains for part of the better efficiency, but not all of it when you are comparing the V6 coupes.

itochu

I was unable to access the site from my current computer so I do not know the answer to this - what are the final drive ratios? I agree that when accelerating and changing gears there will be a significant difference in fuel economy from an AT to an MT even with the same driver for the reasons you state. However, once cruising and assuming = final drive ratios, tire and wheel sizes, etc. VCM would be the major contributor to any difference in fuel economy between the two.

cstiles

I don't know what the final drive ratios are. I don't see it on this link. The 6speed has unique, dual intake cam profiles on the VTEC, which increases low and midrange torque. The 6speed also has larger/wider wheels and tires (235/45 ZR18), which would also impact MPG to some extent.

itochu

Agreed

dpmeersman

Final Drive Ratio Automatic = 4.39
6 Speed Manual= 3.55

I believe most of the coupes with the manuals are going out the door with 18" wheels, not the 17" that are on the EX sedans.

sunnfun

Are you talking about the tran gear info?
I got this off the Honda website for my car. Maybe if someone has the V6 MT they could log on to the Honda site and grab the info that way.

Auto 4Dr V6 Transmission
5-Speed Automatic Transmission Gear Ratios
1st: 2.697
2nd: 1.606
3rd: 1.071
4th: 0.766
5th: 0.612
Reverse: 1.889
Final Drive Ratio: 4.310

itochu

WOW - with that drive ratio I would expect the 6MT to deliver much better mileage than the 5AT V6 VCM! Apparently the revised intake program has a significant impact on fuel economy.

cstiles

Yeah, the 6speed is a wild beast! I am surprised that there is not more torque steer. When I first did my research and purchase decision, I was bummed that the car did not offer a limited slip differential, but unless you're really blasting it, the steering wheel pretty much stays in your hands. I can't wait to see how it handles with better tires. But first need to get rid of this snow here in the midwest.

itochu

That there is little or no torque steer is quite a credit to Honda engineers because when the TL 6 speed came out with 270 HP, let alone the Type S, torque steer and FWD caused it to lose out in head to head competitions against BMW, Audi, etc. I remember the magazines specifically mentioning the presence of torque steer. They must have been working hard to revamp the front suspension to make accommodations for offsetting it. Perhaps they can bring the same talent to curing the VCM of its ills. :sick:

isellhondas

"Ills" ?

Only in these forums have I heard of this and I even asked the head honcho.

thegraduate

I always use the mid octane gas.

Save 15 cents a gallon and get regular; you won't see a difference.

isellhondas

Good advise. Just a waste of money in a Honda.

itochu

Yes - ills.

"Only in these forums have I heard of this and I even asked the head honcho."

You should read not only Honda's pronouncements about the car you are selling, but reviews as well - then you would see that these forums are not the only place where the activity of the VCM has been faulted.

As has been referenced on these forums before in the VCM forum:

Honda -

"The transition between the three operating modes is completely seamless and goes unnoticed by the Accord’s passengers."

WSJ 1/25/08 Review of the Accord V6 -

"...the Accord was fitted with a 268-horsepower, 3.5-liter V6 with what Honda calls Variable Cylinder Management. This technology is designed to boost fuel economy by allowing the six-cylinder engine to run on just three or four cylinders when full power isn't needed. It works almost seamlessly, but in this case, "almost" isn't good enough. During highway driving with the cruise control on I could feel a slight vibration when the engine switched from three- to four- to six-cylinder mode, which it does often, a downright maddening behavior. That the Accord managed only 22 miles per gallon during my testing, a single mile per gallon better than the Malibu, only made this all the more annoying."

Autoweek 8/27/07 -
"When driving the multi cylinder deactivation V6,. we did detect a hybrid-like torque on/torque off feel when cruising at 60 or 70 under slight throttle (2000 to 2500 RPM). Because the green "ECO" indicator was illuminated showing that the engine was running in fuel saving economy mode, we were no doubt picking up the engine cycling between four - and three - cylinder modes".

USA Today 8/24/07 -
"If you step up to the V-6 model, you'll get blazing engine performance but rougher down shifting than in the four cylinder cars. Also, a sensitive driver can feel the V-6 go through its multi-cylinder transitions."

Yes, "ills" - since it is supposed to be "completely seamless and go unnoticed by passengers".

isellhondas

What I think?

I've read all of that stuff too and, seriously, I took one out on a quiet day and I REALLY tried to experience this for myself and I couldn't.

I have asked my fellow salespeople, Service Advisors, both of our Service Managers and last week, our District Service Director if they had heard anything about this...blank stares. You can believe me or choose not to.

Here is what I think but I could be wrong. There could be a small number of cars with a true problem. I don't know.

I think "completely seamless" may have been a poor choice of words.

I think there HAS to be some sort of sensation as the engine switches modes and maybe some people are so sensitive that they can feel this happen. If I could feel this, it probably wouldn't bother me at all but we are all different.

I guess what is a "problem" for a few isn't a problem to the rest of us?

With gas prices as they are and with a 190 H.P. four cylinder available for a lot less money, it always puzzles me why people wnat the V-6's anyway.

I'll stay tuned in case a true problem gets isolated.

itochu

"I think "completely seamless" may have been a poor choice of words."

Hoisted on their own petard then, eh?

"I've read all of that stuff too and, seriously, I took one out on a quiet day and I REALLY tried to experience this for myself and I couldn't."

So it doesn't exist because you do not sense it?

"I have asked my fellow salespeople, Service Advisors, both of our Service Managers and last week, our District Service Director if they had heard anything about this...blank stares. You can believe me or choose not to."

I believe your asking them and their blank stares. I doubt any of them have read the reviews I quoted, nor the Temple of VTEC forum nor these forums. Only ignorance of the problem, which does exist obviously, would elicit blank stares. Knowledge would at least elicit some response, even if refuting the claims here.

isellhondas

Once again...

I have NEVER said that some cars may have a legimate problem.

" So ti doesn't exist because you do not sense it?"

I didn't say that either. I said that I didn't notice anything and I really tried to!

And the people I deal with probably don't read every review. The do however, deal with the customers who buy and drive these cars every day! How can they be ignorant of something they haven't had a customer mention?

It also has to be remembered that reviews can be very objective. One person may note a "choppy ride". Someone else may think the seats are too hard or the radio controls are hard to reach.

It's almost like you want everyone to think this is some kind of a major problem and for the masses, it isn't.

itochu

Well, I have driven at least a half dozen different demos with the problems, some more severe than others, indicating some sort of un-Honda like production variance, and so too have many others here, even besides the cars they are saddled with. It is amazing that you have not experienced it.

Look, I complimented Honda engineers on how they seem to have overcome the torque steer issue endemic to high power FWD cars in the V6 Coupe 6 speed and hoped they could be as successful curing the VCM ills. You denied the ills.
There ARE ills as witnessed on these forums, in the demos I drove, and the test cars these reviewers had - would you not think that Honda cherry picks their test cars?? :surprise: And yet these reviews.

I don't WANT everyone to think anything. I do want them to be educated consumers, and go into a V6 VCM Honda with their eyes WIDE open! :surprise: and not listen to the Honda BS about seamlessness and VCM being unnoticeable.

bug4

Can we pretty-please with ice cream on top limit the VCM discussion to the VCM thread.

jam1000

"I think "completely seamless" may have been a poor choice of words. "

These are the words Honda chose. Apparently it is unwilling to live by them, or anything close to them, for that matter.

isellhondas

For me, my drives HAVE been "completely seamless".

Maybe I'm not that sensitive?

itochu

Only if it is Haagen Daz Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough

sunnfun

On a seperate issue, could you check with the same Honda people you mentioned before. Ask them if there are any issues with the Tranny shifting between 2nd and 3rd, if Honda knows about it and if they are working on a fix? (V6 auto only, not the 4I).

stereosucks

The light flicker on these cars cannot be normal. All of the lights inside the car and outside flicker every twenty seconds or so. I have not called the dealer yet but I expect to get the same answer as the rest of you have. If there is anyone intelligent out there who knows why this is happening then I would be interested in hearing it.

st1300

I would suggest you click over to

honda-tech.com

and read what other people are saying about the headlight problem

also try
NHTSA.GOV..click on complaints on file and read about the headlight problem and then file your own complaint with the Govt.

ezshift5

........Numbers are definitely down --- I'm not sure it doesn't have everything to do with a potential recession and election year --

.........unsure about election year affecting sales, (but I'll go with bug and the recession)..............

Actually, I'd drop the 'potential' .......

regret the doom and gloom, ez.........

hondahawk

I am steering clear of the V-6 for that reason. The I4 5spd man will be sufficiently powerful and well matched with the 190 hp engine. I'm looking forward to a great car!

bug4

Its a deal -- and I'll throw in a cherry on top!

geaux_tigers53

I'm trying to decide which version of the accord coupe would fit me best. It'll either be the EX-L or the EX-L V6. I was wondering if the V6 was worth the extra $$$. I have this perception that 4 cyl. just isn't enough. How do the I4's respond at highway speeds getting into the fast lane? Say going from 60 to 80.

thegraduate

You really need to try it for yourself if you're serious about car-shopping. One person's fast is another person's sluggish.

I have a 4-cyl (166hp) Accord and find it plenty quick. If you are used to V6 power you may not.

Just do yourself a BIG favor, and go test a 4-cylinder.

marsha7

of folks complaining about the VCM, is there any way it can be disabled so that all six cylinders work all the time, like it has for the last, oh, 1000 years...

(Anyone remember the Cadillac V8-6-4 fiasco back in the 80s?)

st1300

Acceleration is really a product of torque not horsepower..you will get 162 lbs of torque at 4400 rpm's from the 190 hp 4 cylinder to move a 3400 lb car...if its a manual you will be shifting a lot to keep the car in its power band esp. 60 to 80 mph. As an extra added feature on the 4 cylinder you get flickering headlights for no charge.

The car you want to look at for real spirited driving is the V6 manual with 248 lbs of torque ..that way you bypass the VCM that the automatic comes with. and that people are complaining about on here. Thats what I should have bought. And you don't get the flickering headlights.

thegraduate

Acceleration on the highway will show off high-rpm horses, not low-end torque.

I'm sorry you have a problem with your car, but that doesn't mean all will.

A lot of shifting to move from 60-80? Who are ya kidding, if you want fast acceleration, a drop to third is all it'll take!

st1300

I have the 4 cylinder with the flickering headlights that are controlled by a module called the ELD..it calls for either high or low output from the alternator upon demand.. I asked honda to fix it so it would stay on high output and they told me they would not mess with the car without honda's factory approval, and it would probably void the warranty. As a second thought I would think if you found a way to disable the VCM, the "CHECK ENGINE" light will come on and in most states if it is on the car will not pass inspection.

The 6 cylinder manual transmission car does not have VCM..I wonder why?

isellhondas

I think it's too bad that someone would get scared off over a potential problem that for the masses isn't a problem at all.

Still, I love Honda's 4 cyl engines. They are quick and responsive and they seem to last forever. Unless you keep your cars a long time you might want to think about the resale of a five speed. Hard to sell when they are new and ever harder as used cars.

st1300

If you read the stats on the car the maximun torque is at 4800rpm's...max hp is at 7000 rpm;s...do you think at 7000 rpm's if you floor it the hp will help you accelerate?..Of corse not because at that point you will hit the rev limiter.

Anyone who races will tell you that everytime you shift you want the next gear to be in the maximum torque range in this case 4800 rpm's...not at 7000 to get 190Hp
Torque is twisting which equals accelaration speed
.On my mustang cobra the max torque is 4800...redline is 7000..I always shift at 6400 because it brings the motor back to exactly 4800 on each gear...

See we learn something everyday! By the way its called the power band range.

emale

take any manual trannied vehicle to its torque peak and punch the accelerator...than take the same vehicle to it's power peak (hp) and also punch it. let us know which gives you more of a boost to your backside...

st1300

Good post emale..nice to know that someone else besides me understands torque and horsepower...thanks for the backup.

geaux_tigers53

That's definitely a good idea. I'm currently driving a 1997 cadillac eldorado etc with the V8 northstar engine. So, being used to the 300 hp (when it was new...) might warrant a the V6 model. Do you think that if I'm looking into having this car for a long while that the 4 cyl might become "overworked" or something along those lines? Or will the VCM cause problems in the long term?

bvdj84

I have the 06 accord that has the auto off lights on it, which I love, and use at night. They stay on, when I click the unlock, and shut off shortly when locking.

But, the 08 has the auto ON/OFF lights, what exactly does this mean.Whats different.

emale

no problem...

for a better discourse on torque vs hp...check out this link:

http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html

hatchback4

The Accord is too BIG - that's why sales are down. Honda missed the boat on this one. I'm interested in the Civic and Accord Coupes, but the Civic's better gas mileage and lack of BLOAT give it the edge. The Accord's terrific styling in a smaller package (somewhere between the Civic and current Accord) would have been perfect.

st1300

READ POST 4907...enough said.