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Maybe so. Now if the Big 3 could just pass the Japanese in that tricky "making profits" thing, they'd be on to something.
Not going to happen any time soon...blood still flowing.
Regards,
OW
Merrill says GM bankruptcy "not impossible"
Wednesday July 2, 10:38 am ET
By Soyoung Kim
DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp (NYSE:GM - News) will need to raise as much as $15 billion in cash to shore up liquidity and bankruptcy is "not impossible" if the U.S. auto market continues to slump, Merrill Lynch said on Wednesday.
link title
Maybe a all-out nuclear attack on the United States would be even better news? I'd sooner see the earth burnt to a cinder and the ashes flung into the void rather than live in a world without GM anyway. Look forward to a gray world full of dull, lifeless, soulless Japanese appliances. You will be assimilated! Will those future Camcords and Civollas come with a free lobotomy?
You just described present-day Detroit.
"I'd sooner see the earth burnt to a cinder and the ashes flung into the void rather than live in a world without GM anyway."
You just described GM executives' sentiments.
"Look forward to a gray world full of dull, lifeless, soulless Japanese appliances."
You just described the Big 3's marketing strategy to Congress for a taxpayer bailout.
He was re-elected 3 or 4 times, while the city went down further and further...now it is so low that it must look up to see the gutter...
There are times that it simply pays to declare certain cities a war zone, fence them off and wait for the people to die off, pave it over and start anew...Detroit is one of those cities...
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2002-12-12-manufacture_x.htm
Oh, I'm sorry, didn't mean to disturb you. I see you're on your way to Wal-Mart again to buy more cheap Chinese crap. Hey, that's a nice "USA - Love it or Leave It" bumper sticker you have there on your Toyota. Oh, I see you have a flag pin on your lapel too. Nice touch.
Well, if you see my manufacturing base, let me know. Because if I can't find it soon, I have no idea how I'm going to promise future generations the prosperity that their parents enjoyed. And I don't know what I'll do with all my free time and all these people if I don't make things anymore. I guess I can always go down to Wal-Mart. They're hiring, right?
I agree about the bailout too. The banks have got away with too much in the past century.
Old ways die and new ones evolve. No use crying about it. The Big 3 are changing before our eyes and the change WILL be good. I never said it wasn't painful but you can't hold on to the pain. Let it go, move on and prosper!
Give me one of these! BTW, it's American!
Regards,
OW
You're right. People who simply take old frames and old technology designed and built decades ago, put cosmetic additions on them, call them "new & improved," then sell them for a profit certainly don't deserve a government bailout.
Wait, who are we talking about here? From that description, it still sounds like it could be GM just as much as the house flippers! :shades: Although to their credit, GM has gotten much better lately about updating their platforms.
Gee, d'ya think?
How about these dopes who are paying over new car MSRP for a used Prius with 10Ks of miles on it because of their fear of fuel prices? They're as dumb as the guys who paid half a million bucks for some falling-down shack in the ghetto because they kept thinking real estate only keeps going up in value?
Not "rehash". It is termed refinement and evolution. Continual quality/process improvement as institutionalized by Japanese.
Rehash was practiced by American brands by using old engine, trans, susp, brakes, frame year after year after year and slapping on total new sheet metal every September to fool buyers into buying the latest style.
Japanese mfrs applied principles of statistics and process improvement per expert Deming decades ago, while American brands only started using these principles in earnest perhaps in the last decade.
American branded mfrs have to discard names of vehicles from time-to-time and start over again with a new name because of poor experiences owners have had.
Think of all of the new names at GM such as G6, G8, CTS, Enclave, Acadia, Lucerne, Lacrosse, etc. What was wrong with names LeMans, Bonneville, LeSabre, Electra, Blazer, Caprice, Chevelle, Tempest, Calais, Eldorado, etc.?
Honda, Toyota model names such as Corola, Camry, Civic, Accord have endured because of exemplary reputation.
OK, so the Camaro is an American brand, but will it be built in the US or in Canada? Look at timing, or bad luck of GM, bringing out a hugely overweight sporty car with big gas burning engine. GM keeps missing target for having a huge sales winner in sports/sporty car. Wouldn't a Camaro about the size of a BMW 1 or 3 series at perhaps 3200 lbs with a base 4 and optional inline 6 have been a winner?
Never will understand why 69 model was chosen as reference point. The 68 or the 71 Z28 were much better styled.
Not going to happen any time soon...blood still flowing.
Regards,
OW
Not so sure you're right. While this is totally unscientific, I've seen different dealers advertising in the Boston Herald and Providence Journal base Malibus w/ an MSRP of about $20,800 selling for about $18,500, including discounts, but not the $1,000 for owning a '99 or newer GM. But the base Camrys, w/ an MSRP of like $19,800 sell for $15,995, and Accords selling for $17,995. So this would seem to indicate that the Malibu is selling for closer to MSRP than the Camcord. Hell they are advertising Impalas for $300 CHEAPER than a Malibu.
There has been talk of the base engine being the 2.0 liter DI eng from the Red Line and GXP. Then you'd jump to the DI 3.6 V-6, before the V-8. I'd imagine you'd get close to 30 on the highway w/ that 4 banger.
BTW,BMW is crying as loud as anybody about our CAFE standards:
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/07/02/bmw-calls-cafe-not-feasible/#comments
My neighbor has a 1990 Twin Turbo Nissan 300, red,and probably 100k miles, owned for 10 yrs, aways garaged, repainted five yrs ago. Special chip, performance exhaust system, and some other goodies..Bachelor owned, drives it once every two weeks to keep it viable.. His daily driver is a 2002 Ford SVT focus..red of course. What's it worth??? 5k-6k???
I ask, because this thread has some Asian auto lovers who just go overboard to pound the Big3..Owned 43 cars to date, 41 Big3 plus 2 Porsches..Haven't gone to the Asian side as yet..
Couple of posters ripped Detroit, spent 1968 thru 2002 in the Grosse Pointe area, and I agree Detroit is the "pits" and the city following in it's footsteps is Atlanta, Ga.
I won't talk about California, it's beyond repair!!!!!!! San Francisco is civilization gone amok....
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
The names Camry, Civic, Corolla, and Accord mean only one thing to me - emasculated. I loved it when Kevin Spacey's character in "American Beauty" finally grew a pair and dumped the wimpy Camry for the 1970 Pontiac Firebird!
(Darth Vader Voice) You don't know the power of the Dark Side!
Better to buy blankets, fire wood and sweaters instead of that hardware! Itll be along, cold winter and a gun can't make you warm!
Regards,
OW
Europe is a whole different ballgame. They have a denser population, shorter distances, and an excellent mass transportation infrastructure in place. I really hate what happened to our railroads after WWII. We used to have one of the best passenger and freight railroad systems in the world. Had it still been in place, we probably wouldn't be having these problems today. It would be awesome for me to hop on the Reading or the Lehigh Valley RR to go upstate to see my family and leave the car at home.
As per $10 gas? I will still be OK at that point as I live very close to work and the grocery store is only a block away. However, those cabbages that will be $14 each might be a problem! Got ramen?
While it is true that union demands forced the corporations toward outsourcing ,at the same time it will kill America . Let face it, America needs jobs for its workers, and no, slave labor isn't the answer.
The politicians and lawmakers need to change the tax structure to encourage corporations to start local manufacturing again. The lawmakers need to encourage anything that brings back the jobs for Americans. In fact, anything that is manufactured outside of American needs a special import tax put on it to stop this crap .
A better balance has to be reached between the corporations and the workers. In the last two decades it has been the REIGN OF THE CORPORATIONS .
The American people need to protest and stop buying from Wal~Mart. In spite of the fact that it might mean a little higher prices, American business needs to employ Americans at decent wages with benefits. While this might mean lower profit for the corporations, at the same time it will mean survival for the corporations . The Americans will have the money to spent and it will produce volume of buying for corporations. I would not suggest that we go back to the unbalanced situation of unions forcing unreasonable wages and benefits on corporations ,but it can't be slave labor ,no benefits, either. Somewhere in the mix there is a happy balance between the corporations and the workers, but competing with slave labor is just absurd . Look at how these slave labor workers from other countries can't even afford to buy the cheap products they make for Americans.
It is absurd for the Media spinners to say that American workers have to back tract in time and compete with one dollar a day workers from other countries. because that is the way of the world today .The corporations slipped that on Americans while we were busy playing with real estate .
One of the reasons why America became a strong country is because of the inroads that were made with employment laws . A strong middle class creates a stronger country .Take back your jobs Americans and take back your country! Boycott Wal~Mart before they rule the world. Realize that the "global market" was just PR spin by the corporate greed machine that decided to betray America. Face it, you can't live off your stocks from the corporate greed machine.
Object to the lack of job security and job benefits that the corporations have gotten away with, and what a destructive force that has been in America in the last 15 years! Realize that a country that only consumes is doomed to fail!
Realize that people who spin that a global work force is good and the wave of the future are simply the corporations that benefit by having slave labor .
People always like to talk extremes, but a balance can be reached again between the employer and employee. We want jobs in America and Americans spending money in America. No other country would be this stupid to give their country away. Must be a commie plot, but actually, pure greed is behind it .
To be fair though, even when the Americans do it, usually the newer examples are better than the older ones. For example, a 1977 Caprice was a good car for its time, but the 1996 was much improved. Faster, better-handling, more economical, and probably more reliable, too. But unfortunately kinda ugly.
The Crown Vic and its ilk are also vastly improved from the 1979 models that they were borne from. In fact, they're sort of like that old analogy about having George Washington's axe...only the blade has been replaced three times and the handle has been replaced four. I wonder if the 2008 Crown Vic even uses any of the same components that the 1979 did? The body was was totally redone in 1992, and that year it got a new engine. I don't know much about Crown Vic transmissions, but I doubt if the 4-speed auto they use now is the same one that debuted in 1980. I guess it is possible, though. It got a new rear suspension in 1998, and in 2003 got a new frame and rack and pinion steering.
Even GM's G- and W-bodies have been massaged pretty well through the years. The 2008 Impala and LaCrosse are much improved over older versions. I'm not sure exactly how far the W-body traces back. The GM-10 debuted in 1988, as the Grand Prix/Cutlass Supreme/Regal, with the Lumina being added for 1990. A much-improved Lumina came out for 1995, so maybe that was the start of the W-body? The Grand Prix/Regal were redone for 1997, adding the Century, and the Intrigue came out for 1998. The 2000 Impala was an improvement over the 1995 Lumina, and the 2006 Impala was improved further still. The LaCrosse is a much better car than the Century/Regal was.
I guess the G-body can be traced back to the 1995 Aurora? Today it exists as the Cadillac DTS and Buick Lucerne. They may not be class leaders, but they've still advanced a long way since the 1990's.
Now maybe the Japanese improve their cars better than the domestics when they go this route, maybe they don't. But I don't see what Toyota did with the 2009 Corolla's restyle, versus the 2003-2008, being any different than when GM restyled the Impala for 2006, or turned the Century/Regal into the LaCrosse.
Forgot about the guns, it will probably be the next item after oil, so I guess a case each of 12,16, and 28 gauge shotgun shells should be on my shopping list..They won't ban guns---just ammo...
Our Congress is making sure that your savings will be gone by election time and they can introduce you all to the welfare state, just like Europe..
The new Challenger is commanding a high price--noticed a dealer in Sarasota has them advertised @ $51,000...Makes a Charger R/T look like a bargain..My son likes his new Hemi-Chrysler and hasn't complained about gas mileage..
Gas still under $4.00 in sunny Fla..
Was thinking about the Trailblazer SS, last of a dying breed, what's another $100/mo in gas, think of the safety factor when you get tangled up with a half-pint hybrid, and there is plenty of room for my gun rack...tow the boat and be above the fray..
Gonna visit my local Chevy dealer....All good Americans should buy the Big3s last remaining symbols of the good life..When you are done with it, the Saudis will probably buy it, after all they will have siphoned all of our $$$$ to their bank..
Remember when I paid $0.13/gal at the PX gas station in Germany back in the late 50s..and only $0.25/gal for premium on the German economy..The Porsche preferred the higher octane.
The Autobahn was wide open back in those days--pedal to the metal it's entire length..Present day autobahn is a massive govt structure of social engineering with a no-fun factor of driving..One can travel faster on our interstates than the BS in Europe..
Enjoy the good life before Election Day.. No I won't pay for your health care!!!!
Some people are voting with their wallets. It takes a long time to change negative perceptions and actual experiences. Why would anyone NOT by US cars if they were better than the rest of the world?
Regards,
OW
From own experience, it is not a question of love, just common sense and an open mind to audition and check out vehicles of various brands, American and foreign, when ready for a new vehicle. Just plain foolish to not consider offerings of all mfrs who have product fitting one's needs. This applies to all consumer good types, not just vehicles.
Some vehicle models of the American brands are closing the gap on quality and reliability with Japanese brands. This has been reported by CR. But, those who might have never considered anything but American brands over last 2-3 decades may have deprived themselves of a better experience in ownership by not having a Japanese vehicle.
Read in WSJ recently that Buick brand sells twice as many cars in China than in US. Also, the next iteration of Lacrosse that will be sold in US, will be based on the Chinese model. In a WSJ interview with GM styling boss, he said that he really liked the styling of a particular Chinese model of car from Chery. Is there something there, perhaps a GM joint venture? Could maybe someday our good and well respected friend in Philly area will be proud to say he drives a GM Chery built in Mexico?
So, if next gen Lacrosse is styled, and maybe some engineering in China, will it still be an American car if it might be built in Mexico or Canada? If an American brand is built outside the US such as in Mexico or Canada, can it really be considered American?
Actually, they're less American than a Camry. The basic car is an English Lotus Elise and chances are the batteries are sourced from outside of the US.
Dumbed down globalized serfdom, here we come!
The upcoming elections will change nothing, a virtual non-issue. The same forces are in control no matter who is in the oval office.
Regards,
OW
How does that saying go? I would rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy!
Everyone try to have a safe 4th of July. Best done at home if you have a home. Not everyone does.
The joint venture in China is with SAIC. The Invicta is the car you are referring to, and it was designed by a global team, working in the US and either China or S. Korea. Rumor has it it will be the next Lacrosse.
It will be built here, alongside the next Impala.
Resigned to $4-a-gallon gasoline and stricter pollution rules, the largest U.S. automaker has recognized that its response must go beyond the mothballing of large truck plants, the people said.
``This is a very big change for GM,'' said an analyst at Global Insight Inc. ``They have no choice. There's never been as rapid a shift in consumer demand in the history of the auto industry.''
GM, turning 100 this year, has few options to re-inventing itself. The company hasn't had a profitable year since 2004. The carmaker's U.S. market share hovers at the lowest level since 1925. Last year GM was 3,000 cars away from being dethroned by Toyota as the world's largest automaker.
The company's current market value is smaller than that of Mattel Inc. (maker of Matchbox cars) and 1/10th of what it was in 2000. A Merrill Lynch analyst said yesterday that a GM ``bankruptcy is not impossible if the market continues to deteriorate.''
Far from it, the 2003 Honda Accord I bought was light years ahead of its own previous generation, and was a complete and total redesign from the ground up. The new Camry's took horsepower into a whole new ballpark.
Resale value is an arbitrary number as far as I'm concerned. I think how well the previous owner cared for a vehicle is exponentially more important than who manufactured it. A well-cared for Chevrolet is far more valuable than a Camry somebody beat the heck out of. Of course some dummy only sees the logos and assumes the one with the interlinking elipses is somehow worth more.
Resale value closely correlates to reputation, which closely correlates to reliability and durability. I'd take a Camry or Accord that's been beat up with 150K miles over any domestic with 50K or more miles anyday in a race around the world. Guaranteed the breakdowns wouldn't be on the Japanese side. My friends Geo/Corolla was raped and beat harder for 100,000 miles more than just about any other car in the world, and it ran beautifully to 200K. On the other hand, my Dodge was cared for and well maintained, but maintenance did not equal performance or durability. I'll take the Japanese car everytime. CR agrees with me.
Yes, there were a lot of totally 100% stupid people paying way too much for way too little house, but it really wasn't all their fault, because the banks were even dumber, as it was their money on the hook, not the homebuyers for the most part.
How could the banks be so stupid? Why did people fall for it?
Paying too much for a well running quality car is a misnomer for the most part. If the US levied a 2,000 tariff tax on imports, I'd still figure I'd come out ahead in buying a foreign vehicle due to superior low maintenance and repair costs. Also, more efficient gasoline engines doesn't hurt with gas at $5/gallon by the end of summer.
That pissed plenty of people off.
Transmission mechanics loved it, but even they said "I can't believe they are still using these things!"
Heck, I think they still used that transmission up through the 2001 or 2002 Neon! By that time, they'd been building it so long, I heard it was their most reliable transmission! :P Although, I'll admit my 2000 Intrepid's 4-speed automatic has been fine so far. 140,000 miles and still kicking.
Was it, really, though? I mean, the 2003 was bigger than the 1998-02. I didn't think it looked as good, but it was the first Accord I would consider to be truly midsized. That was my only beef with the '98-02 style, was that it felt too cramped. The '03 really didn't seem like it was built any better though. I'll admit that I'm not exactly intimate with both designs, though.
As for the Camry, did the '07's new V-6 really take hp to a new ballpark, or was it more a case of now the Camry V-6 has finally caught up to the big boys like the Accord and Altima V-6? And from what I've seen, I'm not really wowed by the '07 Camry versus the '06, or the '08 Accord versus the '03-07. Also, couldn't they have just put the bigger V-6 in the '06-style Camry? Or was it not strong enough? I mean, a 1996 Impala SS is a LOT more powerful than a 1977 Impala, but they're still just the same car underneath.
I can never return to American metal as it stands now. The bleeding is built in to every car one way or the other and you can feel it.
Yes, it's cheaper than some on the surface until all of the other costs factor in and you loose every time. Sick and tired of the old drill.
Actually, it's the same old response even with importing from other regions more economical cars to balance sales. You would have thought a plan would have been in place as gas topped $3/gallon but 90% SUVS prevailed at the dealers even until now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
excitement
Even for Dodge Mopar.
Or the PC monitor you are reading this mail on?
Or the keyboard that you are going to type the retort on?
Yes....thought so....