Last fall Berkshire Hathaway bought 10% of BYD for $230 million. The deal, which is awaiting final approval from the Chinese government, didn't get much notice at the time. It was announced in late September, as the global financial markets teetered on the abyss. But Buffett and Munger and Sokol think it is a very big deal indeed. They think BYD has a shot at becoming the world's largest automaker, primarily by selling electric cars, as well as a leader in the fast-growing solar power industry.
BYD has also begun selling a plug-in electric car with a backup gasoline engine, a move putting it ahead of GM, Nissan, and Toyota. BYD's plug-in, called the F3DM (for "dual mode"), goes farther on a single charge - 62 miles - than other electric vehicles and sells for about $22,000, less than the plug-in Prius and much-hyped Chevy Volt are expected to cost when they hit the market in late 2010. Put simply, this little-known upstart has accelerated ahead of its much bigger rivals in the race to build an affordable electric car. Today BYD employs 130,000 people in 11 factories, eight in China and one each in India, Hungary, and Romania.
GM is toast. Rocky should find out who will be selling the electric cars from China and get in on the ground floor.
Well, it really depends. Most small business CEOs don't want or need help. Seems to be only the CEOs of companies big enough to send production outside the borders to save money...which they then use to buy their very own K-street lobbyists.
Ahh if only cars could be made by small businesses,,,
You're right, nor could they get federal bailout money if they wanted it. You can count on one hand all of the bailouts actually disbursed to date. GM & Chrysler are 2 of them.
Lemko, just a thought, - you seems like want people on this board to be open minded and encourage them to try Buick or Cadillac - claiming that they make cars that are on par or superior to their Japanese and German counterparts. But in the same time in more then one of your posts you completely disregard anything made by Hyundai. Is your opinion based on Hyundai Excel from late 80's same as opinion of others who think about quality of American cars based on 1985 Ford Tempo, Chevy Cavalier or Olds Delta 88?
Have you tried Genesis or Sonata? Can you see yourself driving one? Is there anything Hyundai or Kia could do to convince you to buy one of their cars?
It's hard not to at least acknowledge the Hyundai of today, if you drive one. The Sonata is at least 95% as pleasing as the Camry is, and the Azera - well, it's quite unbelievable frankly. It's about 115% as nice as the Camry is, even the XLE.....
I've not tried a Genesis - afraid it would make me doubt my Lexus! I will say however, that even if it does, I can't drive a Hyundai in that price range - it would need some type of more appropriate moniker to actually compete with Lexus. IMO.
My brother has a Sonata and it's an OK car...for him. He's not the car fanatic I am. All of Hyundai's cars are too small for my tastes and that includes the Genesis. They have a big KDM car that's more my size. I think it's called the Eqquus.
I used to like Hyundai and Kia when they did their own thing. The Kia Amanti is a funky car that looks like a Buick LeSabre with an E-Class front end sporting a Chrysler grille. The previous Optima had sort of a mid-60s Mopar compact look about it - not exactly - but a touch of the flavor.
Today's Kia and Hyundai cars, (aside from the Amanti) look like their bland Japanese competition. The Hyundai Sonata looks too much like an Accord and the Azera resembles a Camry. The Genesis seems to me like a knock-off of an Avalon.
Which Olds 88 are we talking about? If we're talking about the gasoline-powered RWD B-body 1980-85 Olds 88, it was an excellent car I'd purchase in a New York second. If your talking about the mediocre 1986 era FWD V-6 car, it's bad but not Excel bad. Some slick salesman tried to push a new 1987 Olds 88 on me, but I bought a superior 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic instead.
1980s Ford Tempos and Chevy Cavaliers were crap and such cars are not even on my radar then or now. They were as bad as Excels IMHO.
I guess if I had to get a Kia or Hyundia, the Amanti would be the one I'd most likely purchase.
1980s Ford Tempos and Chevy Cavaliers were crap and such cars are not even on my radar then or now.
Except occasionally when I see one on the road. My first though is " I can't believe that POS is still running", and the second is "I can't believe someone is still willing to drive it". I guess it's better than walking but only barely.
Disclosure: I had the luxury (cough, cough, not) of driving an '85 Tempo for a while back in the early 90's. It was umm, yeah, better than walking.....
I pretty much agree, however, I think I'd rather walk than drive a Tempo. I'm more likely to arrive at my destination that way and suffer a lot less embarrassment.
Disclosure: I had the luxury (cough, cough, not) of driving an '85 Tempo for a while back in the early 90's. It was umm, yeah, better than walking.....
My stepdad had a 1984 Tempo GL coupe, bought brand-new. I hated that car, but I also didn't get along with my stepdad, so that probably influenced my opinion of the car. I did get to drive it once. That was more than enough. Slow piece of junk, and made my '80 Malibu with its 115 hp V-6 feel like a musclecar in comparison.
They got that car to around 160,000 miles, and then traded on a '91 Stanza, which oddly, would prove to not be nearly as reliable. The Tempo was still on its original engine and tranny, but I think they did have other problems with it. Can't remember what now, though.
There's a house near my mechanic's shop with a 4-car carport. It has not one, but TWO Tempos parked underneath! Also has an AMC Hornet and, occasionally, an 80's Cutlass Supreme sedan. I guess the Cutlass is the only one that runs, since it's occasionally not there. :P
You need to thank your guardian angel, since you stayed away from the '87 Olds 88, if was anything like the Olds98 Regency in '87 :lemon: I made the mistake of going with that one instead of the Cutlass 442, which was RWD 180HP V8 and a better car. The Hurst dual shifter was quite the novelty.
I think America can do RWD better, so I may get a Stang or Vette next for the play car. Maybe the '03-'04 Stang, or a brand new one, which in its own way is has some selling points over the previous model, though the older one, to me seems trim and shall we say really simple. The New Stang is pretty nice for 2010. The 3.5V6 though is STILL MISSING, the current V6 is OK and the V8 a very good option. As for Vettes, I still prefer the C5 look.
I made the mistake of going with that one instead of the Cutlass 442, which was RWD 180HP V8 and a better car. The Hurst dual shifter was quite the novelty.
Did they still use that "Lightning Rod" shifter, or whatever it was called, that late on? I know some of the earlier cars used it, like around 1983-84, but I thought they dropped it because it confused too many people?
I wouldn't mind having one of those RWD 80's 442's today, or even just a regular Cutlass Supreme with the 307. I always liked them better than the Monte Carlo SS. And even though the Grand National is faster, I just prefer the relative simplicity and rugged durability of the 307 to the more complex turbo V-6.
Which Olds 88 are we talking about? If we're talking about the gasoline-powered RWD B-body 1980-85 Olds 88, it was an excellent car I'd purchase in a New York second.
One thing I find amusing about the RWD Delta 88, is that my 1985 Consumer Guide actually ripped it apart! They also tested a 1985 LeSabre coupe with the 307, a Caprice sedan with the 262 V-6, and a Parisienne sedan with the 305. Those three tested out better, and they gave a "Best Buy" rating to the Chevy and Pontiac.
The main area where they ripped the Delta was stuff like build quality, fit/finish, paint quality, and interior workmanship. They did say it could have just been a bad sample, but was still inexcusable considering Olds has only been building this car for eight years!
I wonder if the quality of the Delta 88 might have gone downhill some in the final year, as they rushed to finish building them and get them out the door, so they could shut down and re-tool for the downsized '86 model? That was also the LeSabre's last year, but the LeSabre wasn't nearly as strong of a seller as the Delta. So maybe with the high demand of the Delta, they were just throwing them together too quickly?
I wouldn't mind having one of those RWD 80's 442's today, or even just a regular Cutlass Supreme with the 307. I always liked them better than the Monte Carlo SS. And even though the Grand National is faster, I just prefer the relative simplicity and rugged durability of the 307 to the more complex turbo V-6.
There is a 1989 Cadillac Fleetwood Broham on Ebay, one day to go, bidding at $3700 now. It is white and nicely appointed with white padded top. whitewall tires, wire wheel hub caps, red leather interior and has CA license plate in photo. That could be a backup, so no walking. Miles at 70K+. Now, that was a real "American" car back in late 80's, probably 100 percent American content.
So, first is was GM as Government Motors, and now it will be GMC for General Motors of China. Oh well, we shall see. So sad, but other than a few bright spots, like the CTS, and Corvettes, it has been looking downhill, IMHO, for a long-long time. Slippery slope began when - was it post 1973 perhaps? Guess there were a couple to three other cars, perhaps even the Camaro since '73 which were OK. Oh yea, the last Eldorado looked pretty cool -- a bit large, but then again Caddy thinks large. Guess I just liked the older GM with say the '72 Cutlass as an example of the last great ones.
And Hello to Rocky -- sorry to see your GM go generally down. Oh well, the USA still has FORD. -Loren
UAW, General Motors Reach Deal on Contract Concessions
Yes, those are the headlines! How then, if not in bankruptcy, do you cancel dealership contracts? And the pensions to be fully paid? Rough road ahead, but amazing headlines, if the UAW did make MEANINGFUL concessions. Wow - what times these are!
How then, if not in bankruptcy, do you cancel dealership contracts?
I would say all contracts are in question during BK. It seems the judge should decide. According to some owners they were told their contract was canceled June 9th. I would think that should be the court's duty to decide who gets screwed and who gets paid. If I was left with $3million in inventory and a mortgage that was directly tied to Chrysler, I would not go down without a fight. I think the best and fastest way is both GM and C file for liquidation and let the law decide who gets what.
So I guess GM is indeed still going into bankruptcy.
Neat looking New Camaro, if it had thinner A pillars, more glass area, lower door window sills, I think I would go for it -- sadly it doesn't & it is a tad large too. Trim a couple-three inches off the width, and half a foot off the length, and I would consider buying one. Maybe a Mustang with a GM 3.6 V6 and transmission would be better :-) Looks like Hyundai Genesis Coupe has the right stuff. Ford has put off the new engine and tranny for too long. And the gas mileage = not so good. Get with it, the car is good in other ways, and looks great.
IMHO, Hyundai will threaten ToyHon someday. I would still go for the Camaro after the new GM is sorted out but need to shop it against Hyundai's coupe. The CTS is still a possibility as I am waiting for the coupe which I think is the best design Caddy has put into production. Soon the 3-series Caddy will be out so we can see if they can produce a world-class sports sedan in that category.
Totally agree with the A pillars. Why the heck do they have to make them so wide? Same with the HHR. I saw one (Camaro) on the interstate the other day (yellow with a black hood) and it was very nice.
Structural stiffness. The Camaro is a fat pig so the hefty pillars keep the body from folding over itself like a wet noodle. But give it a few years and it'll still creak and groan like Camaros of yore. Wonder if there will be crash testing of this new retro beastie?
the simple fact is that even the American Car Companies have assembly plants in other countries and get parts made in foreign countries! everyone thinks that if they buy a GM, Ford, or Chrysler product that they are buying American and that all the money goes to Detroit but it is simply not the case! actually, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Hyundai have more US Plants with production workers then the US automakers do
almost half of GM's products are assembled in other countries outside the US so some portions of American Car Manufactures profits go to Mexico, Canada, Korea, and China!! here is a list to prove my point of US Cars built in other countries
Vehicles Produced in NA: Lincoln MKX - Oakville, Ontario Lincoln MKS - Chicago
Ford Econoline - Avan, OH Ford Edge - Oakville, Ontario Ford Escape - Kansas City Ford Explorer/ Sport Trac - Louisville, KY Ford Focus - Wayne, MI Ford Mustang - Flat Rock, MI Ford Taurus - Chicago Ford F150 (the best selling vehicle in the US) - Dearborn, MI/Kansas City, MO
Additionally, the Focus and upcoming "Kuga" are going to be manufactured in the US and EXPORTED to other countries.
well I don't want to get into a nit-picking match here but the MKS is built in Mexico according to Kelly's Blue Book and Car and Driver; if you have even more proof then just wikipedia about that I suggest writing to those two auto organizations for them to correct their sites!!
in principal yes, because typically a car is classified by its country of origin, but my point was that people who think that if you buy a Japanese car your not supporting America because all the money goes back to Japan, that is simply not true
I used those list of American cars assembled in other countries to illustrate that it doesn't matter anymore whether you buy a Japanese, American, German, or Korean automobile because no matter which one you get all of that money does not go back to that country of origin; a lot of it goes to other countries for assembly plants and production workers and companies that make parts for those vehicles
the car industry has become so heterogeneous when it comes to foreign parts that I would say 75% of all cars in the market have a mixture of American and foreign part so that even if your buying a Ford, GM, or Chrysler not all of that money goes to Detroit, just as if you buy a Toyota, Honda, or Nissan not all that money goes back to Tokyo!
When 3rd World Sweat Shop Wal Mart cars are allowed to be dumped in the U.S. over many years the American Auto Industry is forced to lower it's standards to compete. Bottom line bidness. Nothing against a 3rd World car company competing with the U.S. on a level playing field but, the Sweat Shop cars have helped to undermine a large part of our industries and economy. Simple economics. Bailing on our own auto industry for the brief satisfaction of a bargain basement Sweat Shop Car is unsustainable. Ye reap what ye sow. The so-called money saved buying these Sweat Shop cars are now costing us MORE money as taxpayers to bail out our crumbling industries. Another old addage holds true here. There is no such thing as a free lunch. And to add insult to injury we have legendary entertainers such as Jeff Bridges helping promote Sweat Shop cars like Hyundai so they can grab an even larger market share. For shame. Appears to me there is a major case of economic denial in the good ole U.S. of A.
my point was that people who think that if you buy a Japanese car your not supporting America because all the money goes back to Japan, that is simply not true
You won't get much of an argument from most folks here. I prefer to spend my hard earned dollars on vehicles assembled in the US with a majority of the parts contend also from the US, not necessarily "American made" as that also includes Mexico and Canada.
When 3rd World Sweat Shop Wal Mart cars are allowed to be dumped in the U.S
I don't get your point, what are you trying to say?
Nothing against a 3rd World car company competing with the U.S. on a level playing field but, the Sweat Shop cars have helped to undermine a large part of our industries and economy.
The last I knew, Hyundai does compete on a level playing field along with the rest of the auto manufacturers. Why do you say that the US manufacturers can't compete on a level playing field?
So the MKS, Taurus, and the new Explorer are domestically produced in Chicago, along with some EcoBoost powertrains.
Like I said, we don't need to let facts get in the way of a discussion.
Also, if Chrysler is owned by a German now Italian company, are they in the same boat as any other foreign manufacturer that builds stuff in the US?
Dodge Caliber/Jeep Compass/Jeep Patriot - Belvidere, IL Viper - Downtown D-town, MI Jeep Grand Cherokee/commander - Detroit, MI Jeep Liberty/Dodge Nitro/Wrangler - Toledo, OH (rumored the cause for the great 2003 blackout) Dodge Ram/Dakota/Raider - Warren, MI
and the Avenger/Sebring plant in Sterling Heights got the axe.
Just out of curiosity, how badly would it devastate the local economy if that plant was to close down? I've been past it a few times on my way to and from Cedar Point...that sucker is HUGE!!
I hope that when the Cruze comes out, it's enough to keep that place running at a decent capacity.
If a S. Korean buys a non-S.Korean vehicle, he then gets his taxes audited. This is just one example of a non-level playing field.
One out of six Americans can't find the job they need. Your stategy is: that a Hundai is cheep enough that someone on unemployment can afford it, therefore US is OK? We just all need to buy Hundais?
News reported that Toyota employs a Grand Total of 30,000 in the US. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow Wow.
Anderson, Indiana lost 31,000 GM jobs since 1981.
We are headed in the right direction which is fewer gallons burned.
Now we just need to spend more, tax more, and borrow more.
Apparently it means something at least to the Japanese because they refused to make their Cash for Clunker program eligible to American cars...unlike ours which was open to the Japanese. Could that have been at least one good reason why the US media and government have taken a hard line against Toyota?
Acceptance of continued and obviously unfair one way trade philosophy remains as the fundamental flaw in our "free" trade policy, and the reason why the USA manufacturing has been decimated. They all have closed markets that allow their businesses to get up to speed and then overtake our industry. Google Korea blocks USA cellphones or Harley Davidson or India.
>News reported that Toyota employs a Grand Total of 30,000 in the US. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow Wow.
And the question has to be asked about how many of those are actual full-time employees who have to be laid off to be terminated? How many are part-time employees to whom the company has no responsibility?
I give a lot of credit to Ford and Chrysler, the majority of their products are made in the US, the way it should be if your buying American but I just couldn't believe how much of GM uses outside countries for parts and assembly compared to Ford and Chrysler! when I saw the that the new Camaro was assembled in Canada I was like what the hell? if I'm buying a Camaro, a legendary American automobile, like the Mustang and Corvette, I want it made in the good old US of A!!!!
Ah, the sins of omission. How does this posting relate to "Most American cars are built in Canada, Mexico, or China". I don' t see a single car from China on the list. Also, built in Canada is nothing new. I remember seeing Monte Carlos from Ontario on our Chevy dealer's lot nearly forty years ago, since the UAW is and has been there.
Cobalt--built in OH (a high-volume model with high NA content) Malibu--built in KS (a high-volume model with high NA content) Silverado--built in IN (a high-volume model with high NA content) Corvette--built in KY (OK, not a high-volume model) G6--built in MI (a high-volume model with high NA content) All Saturns--built in U.S. Buick Enclave and Lucerne--built in U.S. Cadillac DTS--built in MI Cadillac CTS and STS--built in U.S.
It took me less than a minute to find this on the 'net...from the "Level Field Institute". It completely contradicts your sweeping statement about the Japanese manufacturers employing more factory workers than the domestics:
U.S. automakers (Ford, GM and Chrysler) employ twice as many U.S. workers (per car) as foreign automakers (including all the cars they make here). Even with recent buyouts, GM employs about as many Americans as Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Subaru, Mercedes, BMW and VW combined. Ford and Chrysler each employ more U.S. workers at a single manufacturing facility than Hyundai and VW employ nationwide. Honda, the largest, longest operating "transplant" manufacturer in the U.S., employs significantly more workers, per car, than rivals Hyundai, Nissan and VW. But even Honda employs only 25,000 Americans, less than half of Ford’s employee count, and about a third of GM’s current total.
Supplier Jobs. "Made in America" matters even more when you look at the men and women working for the auto parts suppliers that serve automakers. These companies employ twice as many Americans as the automakers themselves, and they conduct approximately 40% of automotive R&D.
Ford, GM and Chrysler use twice the “domestic content,” per car, that foreign automakers use, on average. As a result, even though Ford, GM and Chrysler sold less than half the vehicles purchased in the U.S. last year, they purchased two-thirds of the parts made here.
Can you provide independent documentation for your statements?
Bill P.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
hey bill, listen I apologize, I didn't realize I said that, actually when you mentioned it I didn't even remember saying that and had to look it up; I don't know why I said that sentence about their being more foreign US plants with more workers, I might have been in the heat of the moment and I've posted on several different forums consistently so I might have just gotten confused but of course I apologize!
you are correct that the American auto companies have more plants and workers then do the Japanese, German, and Korean manufactures but it still doesn't negate the fact that the foreign automakers employ a considerable amount of US workers in their plants and to say that the 30k US workers Toyota employs is not that much, is a utter bunch of crock because I think those 30k employees would disagree that their jobs are nothing and meaingless compared to a Ford, GM, or Chrysler employee
I was simply responding to an idiotic comment by someone on a Toyota forum who said that if you buy Japanese you don't support the US and if you buy a GM, Ford, or Chrysler all that money goes to Detroit and you know just as I do that, that is simply an utter lie; GM for instance has almost half their models built in foreign countries so when you buy American, some of that money is going to Mexico, Canada, Korea, and China to pay for foreign autoworkers, plants, and parts!
while of course, a larger percentage of money goes to the US if you buy an American car compared to a foreign one, buying a Japanese, German, or Korean car assembled and built in the this country still entails supporting America because those companies have to send some of that profit back to pay for their US plants and US autoworkers!
one thing though I did not ever say was that US automobiles used primarily foreign parts; GMs, Fords, and Chryslers of course have a higher percentage of domestic parts then they do foreign parts, while the opposite is true of Toyotas, Nissans, and Hondas, every year, more and more American automobiles are using more and more foreign parts; GM for instance, has several models who have many components/parts made by Chinese and Korean companies/workers so there is even more money that goes to foreign companies when you buy an American automobile
when I saw the that the new Camaro was assembled in Canada I was like what the hell? if I'm buying a Camaro, a legendary American automobile, like the Mustang and Corvette, I want it made in the good old US of A!!!!
Yes I agree, why would you want a vehicle produced in oshawa ont. at the highest rated GM plant in NA? :confuse:
p.s. the camaro has been built in Canada since 1993-2002. :surprise:
my God even GM has begun using China and Korea to make certain parts for their vehicles at much cheaper prices just like almost everything else for sale in this country
do you know how hard it is to find something in a store that was made in US???
its gotten so ridiculous in this country that if you want something made in the US you have to make it yourself!
> new Camaro was assembled in Canada I was like what the hell? if I'm buying a Camaro
Hey, Canadians buy lots of GM cars. I've always been perfectly happy that they are for the most part cooperative trading partners. I'd buy a Camaro made in Canada. And as mentioned it's one of the highest quality plants--better than Georgetown toyo plant IIRC.
my point was, that a car, such as the Camaro, which has a long legendary history in this country should be built in the US, plain and simple; thats the way it used to be way back in the hayday of GM (1950s and 1960s) and it makes no sense that GM would do that when another classic, the corvette, continues to be made here and Ford was smart enough to continue to build the Mustang here!!
You want to show the Japanese, German, and Korean automakers, hell the entire world for that matter, that your making a comeback and have cars that compete, you build an American staple (Camaro) in the US of A not a foreign country! come on GM, don't be so ridiculous :P
Camaro = Legendary American Built Muscle Car :shades:
Camaro does not = Legendary Canadian Built Muscle Car! :P
Comments
BYD has also begun selling a plug-in electric car with a backup gasoline engine, a move putting it ahead of GM, Nissan, and Toyota. BYD's plug-in, called the F3DM (for "dual mode"), goes farther on a single charge - 62 miles - than other electric vehicles and sells for about $22,000, less than the plug-in Prius and much-hyped Chevy Volt are expected to cost when they hit the market in late 2010. Put simply, this little-known upstart has accelerated ahead of its much bigger rivals in the race to build an affordable electric car. Today BYD employs 130,000 people in 11 factories, eight in China and one each in India, Hungary, and Romania.
GM is toast. Rocky should find out who will be selling the electric cars from China and get in on the ground floor.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/13/technology/gunther_electric.fortune/index.htm
Ahh if only cars could be made by small businesses,,,
Is your opinion based on Hyundai Excel from late 80's same as opinion of others who think about quality of American cars based on 1985 Ford Tempo, Chevy Cavalier or Olds Delta 88?
Have you tried Genesis or Sonata? Can you see yourself driving one? Is there anything Hyundai or Kia could do to convince you to buy one of their cars?
I've not tried a Genesis - afraid it would make me doubt my Lexus! I will say however, that even if it does, I can't drive a Hyundai in that price range - it would need some type of more appropriate moniker to actually compete with Lexus. IMO.
I used to like Hyundai and Kia when they did their own thing. The Kia Amanti is a funky car that looks like a Buick LeSabre with an E-Class front end sporting a Chrysler grille. The previous Optima had sort of a mid-60s Mopar compact look about it - not exactly - but a touch of the flavor.
Today's Kia and Hyundai cars, (aside from the Amanti) look like their bland Japanese competition. The Hyundai Sonata looks too much like an Accord and the Azera resembles a Camry. The Genesis seems to me like a knock-off of an Avalon.
Which Olds 88 are we talking about? If we're talking about the gasoline-powered RWD B-body 1980-85 Olds 88, it was an excellent car I'd purchase in a New York second. If your talking about the mediocre 1986 era FWD V-6 car, it's bad but not Excel bad. Some slick salesman tried to push a new 1987 Olds 88 on me, but I bought a superior 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic instead.
1980s Ford Tempos and Chevy Cavaliers were crap and such cars are not even on my radar then or now. They were as bad as Excels IMHO.
I guess if I had to get a Kia or Hyundia, the Amanti would be the one I'd most likely purchase.
Except occasionally when I see one on the road. My first though is " I can't believe that POS is still running", and the second is "I can't believe someone is still willing to drive it". I guess it's better than walking but only barely.
Disclosure: I had the luxury (cough, cough, not) of driving an '85 Tempo for a while back in the early 90's. It was umm, yeah, better than walking.....
My stepdad had a 1984 Tempo GL coupe, bought brand-new. I hated that car, but I also didn't get along with my stepdad, so that probably influenced my opinion of the car. I did get to drive it once. That was more than enough. Slow piece of junk, and made my '80 Malibu with its 115 hp V-6 feel like a musclecar in comparison.
They got that car to around 160,000 miles, and then traded on a '91 Stanza, which oddly, would prove to not be nearly as reliable. The Tempo was still on its original engine and tranny, but I think they did have other problems with it. Can't remember what now, though.
There's a house near my mechanic's shop with a 4-car carport. It has not one, but TWO Tempos parked underneath! Also has an AMC Hornet and, occasionally, an 80's Cutlass Supreme sedan. I guess the Cutlass is the only one that runs, since it's occasionally not there. :P
I think America can do RWD better, so I may get a Stang or Vette next for the play car. Maybe the '03-'04 Stang, or a brand new one, which in its own way is has some selling points over the previous model, though the older one, to me seems trim and shall we say really simple. The New Stang is pretty nice for 2010. The 3.5V6 though is STILL MISSING, the current V6 is OK and the V8 a very good option. As for Vettes, I still prefer the C5 look.
Did they still use that "Lightning Rod" shifter, or whatever it was called, that late on? I know some of the earlier cars used it, like around 1983-84, but I thought they dropped it because it confused too many people?
I wouldn't mind having one of those RWD 80's 442's today, or even just a regular Cutlass Supreme with the 307. I always liked them better than the Monte Carlo SS. And even though the Grand National is faster, I just prefer the relative simplicity and rugged durability of the 307 to the more complex turbo V-6.
One thing I find amusing about the RWD Delta 88, is that my 1985 Consumer Guide actually ripped it apart! They also tested a 1985 LeSabre coupe with the 307, a Caprice sedan with the 262 V-6, and a Parisienne sedan with the 305. Those three tested out better, and they gave a "Best Buy" rating to the Chevy and Pontiac.
The main area where they ripped the Delta was stuff like build quality, fit/finish, paint quality, and interior workmanship. They did say it could have just been a bad sample, but was still inexcusable considering Olds has only been building this car for eight years!
I wonder if the quality of the Delta 88 might have gone downhill some in the final year, as they rushed to finish building them and get them out the door, so they could shut down and re-tool for the downsized '86 model? That was also the LeSabre's last year, but the LeSabre wasn't nearly as strong of a seller as the Delta. So maybe with the high demand of the Delta, they were just throwing them together too quickly?
Yeah, those were very cool cars back then.
-Rocky
-Rocky
And Hello to Rocky -- sorry to see your GM go generally down. Oh well, the USA still has FORD.
-Loren
Yes, those are the headlines! How then, if not in bankruptcy, do you cancel dealership contracts? And the pensions to be fully paid? Rough road ahead, but amazing headlines, if the UAW did make MEANINGFUL concessions. Wow - what times these are!
I believe the dealership contracts are 5 year deals that are up in October of this year.
I would say all contracts are in question during BK. It seems the judge should decide. According to some owners they were told their contract was canceled June 9th. I would think that should be the court's duty to decide who gets screwed and who gets paid. If I was left with $3million in inventory and a mortgage that was directly tied to Chrysler, I would not go down without a fight. I think the best and fastest way is both GM and C file for liquidation and let the law decide who gets what.
Neat looking New Camaro, if it had thinner A pillars, more glass area, lower door window sills, I think I would go for it -- sadly it doesn't & it is a tad large too. Trim a couple-three inches off the width, and half a foot off the length, and I would consider buying one. Maybe a Mustang with a GM 3.6 V6 and transmission would be better :-) Looks like Hyundai Genesis Coupe has the right stuff. Ford has put off the new engine and tranny for too long. And the gas mileage = not so good. Get with it, the car is good in other ways, and looks great.
Regards,
OW
The length I can see, but the width may compromise handling
Have a great Memorial Day weekend everybody.
Regards,
Dale
almost half of GM's products are assembled in other countries outside the US so some portions of American Car Manufactures profits go to Mexico, Canada, Korea, and China!! here is a list to prove my point of US Cars built in other countries
Aveo - Korea
Camaro - Canada
Equinox - Canada
Avalanche - Mexico
HHR - Mexico
Impala - Canada
SRX - Canada
LaCrosse - Canada
Regal - Korea
Fusion - Mexico
MKS - Mexico
MKX - Canada
MKZ - Mexico
Grand Marquis - Canada
Milan - Mexico
Chrysler 300 - Canada
PT Cruiser - Mexico
Charger - Canada
Grand Caravan - Canada
as you can see the American Car Companies, especially GM owes a lot of money to Mexico and Canada so their production workers are paid!!
MKS - Mexico
MKX - Canada
MKZ - Mexico
Grand Marquis - Canada (and dead)
Milan - Mexico
Again, not to let facts get in the way of a good discussion:
The Lincoln MKS is built at Ford's Chicago Assembly plant in Chicago, Illinois.
Vehicles Produced in NA:
Lincoln MKX - Oakville, Ontario
Lincoln MKS - Chicago
Ford Econoline - Avan, OH
Ford Edge - Oakville, Ontario
Ford Escape - Kansas City
Ford Explorer/ Sport Trac - Louisville, KY
Ford Focus - Wayne, MI
Ford Mustang - Flat Rock, MI
Ford Taurus - Chicago
Ford F150 (the best selling vehicle in the US) - Dearborn, MI/Kansas City, MO
Additionally, the Focus and upcoming "Kuga" are going to be manufactured in the US and EXPORTED to other countries.
And since Mexico is in (North) America, either way the Lincoln is an American car.
I used those list of American cars assembled in other countries to illustrate that it doesn't matter anymore whether you buy a Japanese, American, German, or Korean automobile because no matter which one you get all of that money does not go back to that country of origin; a lot of it goes to other countries for assembly plants and production workers and companies that make parts for those vehicles
the car industry has become so heterogeneous when it comes to foreign parts that I would say 75% of all cars in the market have a mixture of American and foreign part so that even if your buying a Ford, GM, or Chrysler not all of that money goes to Detroit, just as if you buy a Toyota, Honda, or Nissan not all that money goes back to Tokyo!
You won't get much of an argument from most folks here. I prefer to spend my hard earned dollars on vehicles assembled in the US with a majority of the parts contend also from the US, not necessarily "American made" as that also includes Mexico and Canada.
I don't get your point, what are you trying to say?
Nothing against a 3rd World car company competing with the U.S. on a level playing field but, the Sweat Shop cars have helped to undermine a large part of our industries and economy.
The last I knew, Hyundai does compete on a level playing field along with the rest of the auto manufacturers. Why do you say that the US manufacturers can't compete on a level playing field?
So the MKS, Taurus, and the new Explorer are domestically produced in Chicago, along with some EcoBoost powertrains.
Like I said, we don't need to let facts get in the way of a discussion.
Also, if Chrysler is owned by a German now Italian company, are they in the same boat as any other foreign manufacturer that builds stuff in the US?
Dodge Caliber/Jeep Compass/Jeep Patriot - Belvidere, IL
Viper - Downtown D-town, MI
Jeep Grand Cherokee/commander - Detroit, MI
Jeep Liberty/Dodge Nitro/Wrangler - Toledo, OH (rumored the cause for the great 2003 blackout)
Dodge Ram/Dakota/Raider - Warren, MI
and the Avenger/Sebring plant in Sterling Heights got the axe.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Just out of curiosity, how badly would it devastate the local economy if that plant was to close down? I've been past it a few times on my way to and from Cedar Point...that sucker is HUGE!!
I hope that when the Cruze comes out, it's enough to keep that place running at a decent capacity.
One out of six Americans can't find the job they need. Your stategy is: that a Hundai is cheep enough that someone on unemployment can afford it, therefore US is OK? We just all need to buy Hundais?
News reported that Toyota employs a Grand Total of 30,000 in the US. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow Wow.
Anderson, Indiana lost 31,000 GM jobs since 1981.
We are headed in the right direction which is fewer gallons burned.
Now we just need to spend more, tax more, and borrow more.
Acceptance of continued and obviously unfair one way trade philosophy remains as the fundamental flaw in our "free" trade policy, and the reason why the USA manufacturing has been decimated. They all have closed markets that allow their businesses to get up to speed and then overtake our industry. Google Korea blocks USA cellphones or Harley Davidson or India.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2009/12/us-cars-excluded- -from-japans-cash-for-clunkers-program-/1
And the question has to be asked about how many of those are actual full-time employees who have to be laid off to be terminated? How many are part-time employees to whom the company has no responsibility?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Cobalt--built in OH (a high-volume model with high NA content)
Malibu--built in KS (a high-volume model with high NA content)
Silverado--built in IN (a high-volume model with high NA content)
Corvette--built in KY (OK, not a high-volume model)
G6--built in MI (a high-volume model with high NA content)
All Saturns--built in U.S.
Buick Enclave and Lucerne--built in U.S.
Cadillac DTS--built in MI
Cadillac CTS and STS--built in U.S.
It took me less than a minute to find this on the 'net...from the "Level Field Institute". It completely contradicts your sweeping statement about the Japanese manufacturers employing more factory workers than the domestics:
U.S. automakers (Ford, GM and Chrysler) employ twice as many U.S. workers (per car) as foreign automakers (including all the cars they make here). Even with recent buyouts, GM employs about as many Americans as Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Subaru, Mercedes, BMW and VW combined. Ford and Chrysler each employ more U.S. workers at a single manufacturing facility than Hyundai and VW employ nationwide. Honda, the largest, longest operating "transplant" manufacturer in the U.S., employs significantly more workers, per car, than rivals Hyundai, Nissan and VW. But even Honda employs only 25,000 Americans, less than half of Ford’s employee count, and about a third of GM’s current total.
Supplier Jobs.
"Made in America" matters even more when you look at the men and women working for the auto parts suppliers that serve automakers. These companies employ twice as many Americans as the automakers themselves, and they conduct approximately 40% of automotive R&D.
Ford, GM and Chrysler use twice the “domestic content,” per car, that foreign automakers use, on average. As a result, even though Ford, GM and Chrysler sold less than half the vehicles purchased in the U.S. last year, they purchased two-thirds of the parts made here.
Can you provide independent documentation for your statements?
Bill P.
you are correct that the American auto companies have more plants and workers then do the Japanese, German, and Korean manufactures but it still doesn't negate the fact that the foreign automakers employ a considerable amount of US workers in their plants and to say that the 30k US workers Toyota employs is not that much, is a utter bunch of crock because I think those 30k employees would disagree that their jobs are nothing and meaingless compared to a Ford, GM, or Chrysler employee
I was simply responding to an idiotic comment by someone on a Toyota forum who said that if you buy Japanese you don't support the US and if you buy a GM, Ford, or Chrysler all that money goes to Detroit and you know just as I do that, that is simply an utter lie; GM for instance has almost half their models built in foreign countries so when you buy American, some of that money is going to Mexico, Canada, Korea, and China to pay for foreign autoworkers, plants, and parts!
while of course, a larger percentage of money goes to the US if you buy an American car compared to a foreign one, buying a Japanese, German, or Korean car assembled and built in the this country still entails supporting America because those companies have to send some of that profit back to pay for their US plants and US autoworkers!
one thing though I did not ever say was that US automobiles used primarily foreign parts; GMs, Fords, and Chryslers of course have a higher percentage of domestic parts then they do foreign parts, while the opposite is true of Toyotas, Nissans, and Hondas, every year, more and more American automobiles are using more and more foreign parts; GM for instance, has several models who have many components/parts made by Chinese and Korean companies/workers so there is even more money that goes to foreign companies when you buy an American automobile
Yes I agree, why would you want a vehicle produced in oshawa ont. at the highest rated GM plant in NA?
:confuse:
p.s. the camaro has been built in Canada since 1993-2002.
:surprise:
do you know how hard it is to find something in a store that was made in US???
its gotten so ridiculous in this country that if you want something made in the US you have to make it yourself!
Hey, Canadians buy lots of GM cars. I've always been perfectly happy that they are for the most part cooperative trading partners. I'd buy a Camaro made in Canada. And as mentioned it's one of the highest quality plants--better than Georgetown toyo plant IIRC.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
my point was, that a car, such as the Camaro, which has a long legendary history in this country should be built in the US, plain and simple; thats the way it used to be way back in the hayday of GM (1950s and 1960s) and it makes no sense that GM would do that when another classic, the corvette, continues to be made here and Ford was smart enough to continue to build the Mustang here!!
You want to show the Japanese, German, and Korean automakers, hell the entire world for that matter, that your making a comeback and have cars that compete, you build an American staple (Camaro) in the US of A not a foreign country! come on GM, don't be so ridiculous :P
Camaro = Legendary American Built Muscle Car :shades:
Camaro does not = Legendary Canadian Built Muscle Car! :P
I also believe Mexico has shown they suck at assembling cars (VW & Chrysler issues).
I prefer stuff made in Germany or Japan.