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Thanks for your insights. Agree Hyundai should tick up market share this year and Chrysler should be a drag for at least another year.
Regards,
OW
After riding in both, the difference has to be that the Matrix you can load to the ceiling, being a hatchback car. We chose not to do that and luggage that was swallowed by the Cobalt's trunk was falling around inside the Matrix. Even compared to the Matrix owner's 2005 Civic, I might add the Cobalt has the newer-style unobtrusive deck lid opening hardware instead of the big goose-neck hinges that cut into luggage room like his Civic has.
Wouldn't the Matrix be closer to the Cobalt's price point than the Corolla? And I mean what the cars can actually be bought for, not only blindly looking at MSRP....although I imagine Toyotas will be selling for less with all the unprecedented-in-the-industry recalls of late.
I'm not saying the Cobalt is the end-all small car out there. I think it's clearly better than the conventional wisdom. If people would actually experience the car they might be surprised...particularly at the price.
Bill
The only way I'd be impressed by the Cobalt's pricing is if the sales price was less than the resale price, because I know GM products drop like a rock in resale value. So unless the resale value of a 3 year old cobalt is ultra high, I'm not impressed by the sales price.
That is exactly the point. When that changes 180 degrees, that is when it makes snese to buy GM again....one of the signs of non-junk!
A 2007 with 36K miles looses 45% of it's value. Around $9K average out there at the moment.
Regards,
OW
Bill
Plus if you do buy it and keep it forever who cares what the resale value is. No one paid MSRP for a Cobalt anyway. A better car to buy used but if you bought it right new and keep it forever resale doesn't matter.
Yeah, I agree, but it sure does sound good to be able to sell a 9 yr old Honda CRV with 140K miles for $6K. I went from the Honda CRV to the Toyota Tundra to buying a 1 yr old Chrysler Sebring. And a 9 yr old Sebring with 140K miles I expect to be pretty much worthless, maybe sell if for $1K-$2K. But then I got it for $12K so I'd be happy if it just makes it to 9 yrs and 140K miles w/o a major repair.
Agreed that the Cobalt might not be as bad as people think, and it is a good value. But the reality is that nobody's vehicles are that bad, and the Cobalt is still not near the top of the pack. I've been waiting for 30 years for GM to build a smaller sedan that is competitive. Why would the (previously) largest automaker in the world would neglect this very important segment, especially as new drivers enter the market and gain loyalty to their first car maker? It's just stupid. And some posters still think Wagoner was a great CEO.
Bill
If one gets a Cobalt with the endless array of discounts available, I am sure it is a fine deal. The SS models are cool too.
Most of them are based strictly on mileage. Some of them take into account oil temperature (cold starts, short trips add impurities), and I think some include RPM range (if you are driving in the city vs highway or high performance or what not).
To each his own.
At the end of the day, it is just one factor to consider, weighted differently between customers. The U.S. cars tend to loose value faster as a rule.
From Edmunds...
Buying a car with weak resale value will cost you money. You won't necessarily notice it immediately, but such a car will drain your financial resources steadily as you own it. A car with a high resale value might cost more up front, but will save you money in the long run.
What this means to you, the highly pursued American car buyer, is that you owe it to yourself, and your family, to face the music. Make depreciation an important part of your car-buying decision. Not only will you get more when it's time to trade in, but if you decide to lease, your monthly payment will be lower. (An important part of the lease formula is based on the depreciation or "residual value" of the vehicle.) :shades:
Keep Your Eye On Resale Value
Top 10 Best Resale Values for 2008
1. 2008 Mini Cooper Clubman — 56.4%
2. 2008 Mini Cooper — 53.1%
3. 2008 BMW M3 — 52.8%
4. 2008 Lexus IS F — 49.6%
5. 2008 Scion xB — 49.2%
6. 2008 Volkswagen R32 — 49.0%
7. 2008 Infiniti G37 — 47.2%
8. 2008 Chevrolet Corvette — 47.1%
9. 2008 BMW 1 Series — 47.0%
10. 2008 Volkswagen Eos — 47.0%
Gotta luv the 'Vette!
Regards,
OW
The GM Oil Life Monitor System is not a mileage counter. It is actually a computer
based software algorithm that determines when to change oil based on engine operating conditions. There is no actual oil condition sensor. Rather, the computer continuously monitors engine-operating conditions to determine when to change oil. Over the years, millions of test miles have been accumulated to calibrate the system for a variety of vehicles. The system was first introduced in 1988 and is now on more than 10 million GM vehicles.
How many miles can I expect to go between oil changes when using this system?
The beauty of the GM Oil Life Monitor System is that it will automatically adjust the oil change interval based engine characteristics, driving habits and the climate in which the vehicle is operated. For instance, mild highway driving in a warm climate will maximize the interval between oil changes. Depending on the vehicle, this could be in excess of 7000 miles and as high as 12,000 miles. On the other hand, short trip driving in cold a climate may limit the oil change to 3000 miles or less. In general, most people that drive a combination of city and highway schedules find that the GM Oil Life Monitor System will indicate an oil change every 7500 to 8500 miles.
Here's more...GM O.M.S. - FAQ's
Regards,
OW
In summer or with long drives involved I sometimes went to 40% and that was at 6000 one time.
If a good oil filter is used, I consider the oil life monitors to be very good. Now that I've put synthetic into both newer cars, I'll run the oil life monitor longer and watch the oil itself.
The monitor can't adjust for the quality of the oil involved nor for the ability of the filter to catch more or less particles of whatever size. I would worry that a shop skimping on oil cost would put in really poor oil compared to the name brands I can buy in quart/5 quart bottles.
You should see a large difference in the percent the monitor drops based on your drives in cold weather to work versus summer time use.
Do any of the monitors actually "check" the oil quality.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As is typically the case, not so simple. There are a lot of cars on that list from manufacturers who own a whole lot of 'black dots' for reliability in Consumer Reports (Mini, VW, and yes, Corvette).
Bill
Regards,
OW
No oil monitors do that yet. You need a centrifuge and a spectrograph to do real oil analysis and you can't put those in a car.
The key is that driving experience makes up for a lot of unreliability. Take VW as an example - most people really like their cars, even though the costs and dealer experiences generally suck. If you have both unreliability and poor driving experience (Chrysler as an example) then you are pretty much screwed and your resale goes into the toilet.
>No oil monitors do that yet
I thought I had read mention of BMW having an oil quality check. Here it is:
http://www.dslreports.com/r0/download/1483336~7ac15633345e7619c6a5e0d8f6dd4a18/B- MW-oil-sensor.pdf
The oil condition sensor consists of 2 cylindrical condensers. The condensers are mounted above one another. 2
metal tubes are inserted one into the other to serve as electrodes. The engine oil is used as a dielectric medium
between the electrodes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Actually resale value ALWAYS matters. Take an insurance company for example, they care about your vehicle's resale value a whole lot. When you get rear-ended by Joe Blow at 50 mph on the freeway, your vehicle will most likely be totalled. The insurance company will look at local resale values when coming up with a figure to put on the check you get. You have no control over bad drivers keeping you from "keeping it forever," and trust me, there are a lot of bad drivers out there.
But by the same token, if a car has intrinsically better resale value, you don't need as big of a down payment and might not have to worry about gap insurance, so the better resale value does save you some money there.
That being said, life is too short to buy a car you don't like or doesn't fit your needs simply because it has better resale value. So take everything into consideration...not just resale.
If you keep a new car for many years, than resale value not a big deal. If you like new every 3 to 4 years, then very important. Main thing is if you cannot pay cash for a new car, especially today with very low interest rate returns on CDs, then buy used for whatever cash amount you have. The only thing to ever finance in your life is the house you live in.
If you put down $25 large on a Honda, you'll get most of that back 2 years later when someone totals it. If you do that on a domestic product, chances are you will lose half your investment. Gap insurance has nothing to do with it, and if you "need" gap insurance, then that is a hidden cost raising the MSRP of the product. A loss is a loss, and if you take on huge depreciation due to someone totalling your vehicle, even if you own it outright and don't owe anything on it, your check will be smaller with the Cobalt.
Just go to a KBB, edmunds data hasn't been as accurate lately as KBB in my region, on an Accord EX-L, Malibu LT with leather and a Fusion SEL all 2008s all with average miles for a 2008 of that type so 45,000 miles.
MSRP wise the Accord is the most close to 26,000 and invoice of about 23,000 when new.
Malibu is the next MSRP just under $24,000 and invoice $21,000 in change.
Fusion was the cheapest at about $21,000 MSRP and $18,500 invoice.
Now you probably didn't buy the accord for under invoice but you probably did buy the Fusion for under invoice and the Malibu was probably under invoice too.
The Malibu now used with 45,000 miles is $10,000-$12,000, the Fusion is $8,500-$10,50 and the Accord is $13,000-$15,500.
Wow look at that the fusion was about $5,000 cheaper then the Accord when new and it is also about $5,000 cheaper when used. Maybe even a bigger difference cause you might have been able to get a better deal on the Fusion.
The Malibu was about $2,000 cheaper when new and now it is about $3,000 cheaper when used. I still bet you bought the Malibu for well under invoice and that didn't happen with the Accord.
Regards,
OW
As we become more competitive, we all suffer more. Now everyone stays at work 1-2 extra hours to not be on the layoff rung. We line up to buy the very top rated car and the bottom few names go bankrupt. Too bad we don't go home from work to enjoy the car. All our wives work but has that put those families on easy street? Since incomes are higher, prices went up. Supposedly, working class families got poorer under Bush's 8 years. Just today a Civic raced around me and grabbed the unlawful amount of space I had in front of me. I was trying to keep salt mist off my windshield and was giving the dump truck 3 car lengths at 40 mph in the snow. Nothing doing said the Civic driver. I can get to work 10 seconds faster if I dive into that space. Are we all that desperate to gain 10 seconds?
I was getting on I-95 in Fla. The little corolla in front of me wanted to get in front of a tractor trailer when he merged on. He couldnt make it so he got wedged between a concrete barrier and the semi. It was night and sparks flew off both sides of the corolla at 60 mph. The corolla had to nearly stop. then he just went on like nothing had happened. Both sides of his car destroyed over not gaining one vehicle length on a 6 lane interstate at 8PM. Ther was concrete barriers and no shoulder.
As we become more competitive, we all suffer more. Now everyone stays at work 1-2 extra hours to not be on the layoff rung. We line up to buy the very top rated car and the bottom few names go bankrupt. Too bad we don't go home from work to enjoy the car. All our wives work but has that put those families on easy street? Since incomes are higher, prices went up. Supposedly, working class families got poorer under Bush's 8 years. Just today a Civic raced around me and grabbed the unlawful amount of space I had in front of me. I was trying to keep salt mist off my windshield and was giving the dump truck 3 car lengths at 40 mph in the snow. Nothing doing said the Civic driver. I can get to work 10 seconds faster if I dive into that space. Are we all that desperate to gain 10 seconds?
I was getting on I-95 in Fla. The little corolla in front of me wanted to get in front of a tractor trailer when he merged on. He couldnt make it so he got wedged between a concrete barrier and the semi. It was night and sparks flew off both sides of the corolla at 60 mph. The corolla had to nearly stop. then he just went on like nothing had happened. Both sides of his car destroyed over not gaining one vehicle length on a 6 lane interstate at 8PM. Ther was concrete barriers and no shoulder.
There are always successful and unsuccessful companies in any economy. Even during the recession here, look at Apple as an example. Reality is still that the overall Japanese economy has been stagnant for over a decade.
Are you trying to imply that a Cobalt or Jeep driver would not have acted like your Civic driver? I don't get the point. There are jerks driving all makes of cars. Anecdotal stories have nothing to do with whether it's better or not to buy cars assembled in the USA, versus Canada, Mexico, Japan, or Europe.
Look out, USA. The Koreans are beating you....Asian de ja vu all over again.
Of all its competitive superlatives, perhaps the most predictable is "lowest price." Unlike Camry, Accord, Altima, Fusion, or Malibu, the base Sonata is able to limbo under the $20,000 bar, and even a fully loaded Limited (with navigation, back-up camera, and premium audio) tops out at just over $28,000. Flinty-eyed family-sedan shoppers will take notice, and with old objections like quality and residual value falling away, we'd be willing to bet that the impressive new Sonata will power past at least a few competitors in the mid-size sedan horse race.
The Specs
On sale: Now
Price: $19,915 (GLS); $23,315 (SE); $26,015 (Limited)
Engine:
2.4-liter direct-injection I-4
198-200 hp @ 6300 rpm
194-196 lb-ft @ 4250 rpm
Drive:
Front-wheel
Fuel economy:
24/35 mpg (manual)
22/35 mpg (automatic)
2011 Hyundai Sonata
I love it. "May the Best Car Win"...with no bailout money to boot! :shades:
Regards,
OW
Also, unless I heard wrong, I don't think there's a V-6 option in these cars. That might not be too big of a deal, since the majority of Camrys, Accords, Altimas, etc, only have the 4-cyl. But IMO, that does make it lose some status.
I have no doubt that it's going to be a good car though, in spite of its looks.
That's what the pending turbo 4 is for. That's actually a pretty good idea for cost savings, since you don't have to design around two different engine blocks.
As far as Japan being stagnant, How does that relate to imports/exports/auto industry?
I lost my auto industry job to Mexico 6 yrs ago.
...and weight savings. Despite class leading interior space, it also leads with the Altima in least weight. That is a good thing for maneuverability....and fuel efficiency.
I agree with Andre that, though the looks might be polarizing, it's a bet the car does great in sales and the new style BLOWS AWAY the previous iteration of Sonata.
I'll bet turbo 4's pop up all over the place next year. It's the next step in the evolution afaic. The U.S. manufacturers will need to step it up far better than their current pace to stay in the game in this huge car segment.
Different Angle:
Interior:
Regards,
OW
That thing is just hideous. I am sure they will sell a ton of them because of the features and warranty you are getting for the money but lord it is ugly. That under 20,000 price point is a little deceiving though. It is only under 20,000 if you get a manual car with no floor mats. Add floor mats and it breaks just past 20,000.
Hyundai and Kia are still the depreciation kings though. A Sonata SE was within 500 bucks of a fusion SEL when new but is now worth $1,200 odd dollars less on average with the same 45,000 miles. And that is assuming you can get straight book value for a Hyundai and typically you can't.
For Hondas you can always get book sometimes over book as long as the car is not a train wreck. For Toyotas you used to be able to do that too but I don't think you will be getting book value for Toyotas now anymore.
For Fords and Chevys ehh it depends sometimes you can sometimes you can't.
For Hyundais no not really and you definitely can't for Kias. That could change and if Hyundai keeps coming out with solid products then it will change but it is going to change fast.
This problem is hardly belongs to Hyundai alone; several manufactures are going overboard on their grills with way to large and over chroming in an attempt to make their cars standout from the competition; two good examples of this, besides this Sonata, is the freshened 2010 Fusion and all of Acura's product line with the corporate shield grill; the Fusion, like the Sonata has way to much cheap chrome pieces and a much too large grill that just looks ridiculous; personally, the grill on the 2007-2009 Fusion was just right, now it just looks overdone and a little bit ridiculous! and Acura has gone all ugly crazy with their shield grill!
This seems to be a trend with more and more car manufactures and I wish they would stop; they need to find away to making nice, clean, unique front grills without blowing them up to ridiculous sizes and using so much cheap chrome and chrome accents that its hard to look at!
just my 2 cents! :shades:
I wonder if you'll be able to get much of a discount on these things? The car in this class I'd probably be most likely to go for is the Altima, and one of the local dealers (www.fitzmall.com) has stripper Altimas for $17,396. And even an S model with sunroof, power driver's seat, alloys, AND floor mats, is only $21,293.
The cheapest Camry they're showing is $18,199, for a stripper model with an automatic. They don't have a Honda dealership though, so no new Accords listed to compare.
They do have a Hyundai dealership, and their cheapest Sonatas are listed at $14,999, 4-cyl GLS models with automatic. I'll be curious to see what they price the new one at.
This tiny window phase can't pass quickly enough for me!
Guess those Toyotas are built tough.
Chances are, that Corrolla was union built (ooh, sorry wrong forum).
Maybe he went on because his accelerator was jammed open? :surprise: Sorry, that was kind of a low blow...
GM is offering basically identical powertrain options in the Buick Regal (the Lacrosse gets a V6 to please the old farts), and Ford has a wad of Ecoboost 4s in the batting cage. Chrysler will get whatever their rebadged Fiats end up having.
2008 Malibu v6/w leather $19.8k avg. 2008 Malibu 4cyl, under 45k miles $15.3k avg
2008 Accord v6 /w leather $23.4k avg. 2008 Accord 4cyl under 45k miles $19.3k avg.
It would be interesting to now actual transaction prices between the two, but asking prices appear to be higher for the Honda's on autotrader anyway.
Thanks,
Chintan
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The Accord's MSRP is $31,815, invoices for $28,892, and sells for $28,255, w/ no incentives. That is about $1900 more, or the retail difference of a nav system.
Considering the initial layout of the extra $2000 for the Accord, that extra $1400 spread after 2 yrs is less than 10% of the retail price. I can't imagine that the extra $1400 would be a deal breaker if someone wanted the Accord, and it shows to me that the used car price of the Malibu is probably better than it would be if you compared a non-MAXX '07 Malibu vs an '07 Accord.