I believe the huge Oshawa, Canada complex of auto assembly plants dates back to the original [David] Buick. It's been a GM operation for years. Chrysler, too, is in Canada. Ford, as well. That's bothered me, too, for years. The CAW up there gets contracts similar to those of the UAW, no? Still, those are US companies. All part of the reason there are no simple answers to the question of "buying American".
If the Cars.com American-Made Index has done anything, it has raised the level of discussion on what defines an American car. That’s why it comes as only a mild surprise to find out that the third-largest domestic producer of automobiles in the U.S. is Honda...
We forget that industrialization has been a messy, agonizing process from the beginning, when steam power made it all possible. There's a good reason why Thomas Jefferson hated all factories & wanted the U.S. to remain an agrarian country forever. He thought that only a nation made up of self-sufficient farmers could be truly free. After all, if not buying from or selling to a foreign country is good, not buying from or selling to your neighbor was even better, he reasoned. A free man should be self-supporting & shouldn't have to do business with anyone else.
And when, despite Jefferson's fervent wishes, the Industrial Revolution came to America, it ruined the lives of tens of thousands of craftsmen, many of whom had served long apprenticeships to learn their skills. Steam power & mass production made them obsolete & irrelevant. The best that they could hope for was a job in a hot, noisy, dangerous factory for an hourly wage that was a fraction of what they had earned as independent businessmen. Although the lemkos of the day railed against them, factories were here to stay for a simple reason: for every displaced & unemployed craftsman, there were a thousand consumers who could now buy things that they couldn't afford previously.
By the end of the 1800s, when Bryan delivered his "Cross of Gold" speech, farmers were in agony. Decades of price deflation, caused by an expensive, gold-backed dollar, meant that food was cheaper in 1895 than it had been in 1865. This was good for factory workers & other city dwellers, but most Americans still lived on farms; for them, lower food prices equaled lower income. Farmers were forced to repay their debts in dollars that were worth more than the dollars they had originally borrowed. In most years, the cost of shipping a bushel of grain from, say, Kansas to markets in Chicago exceeded the value of the grain itself.
This was the impetus behind Bryan's speech: what was good for urban America - factory workers & their bosses (still a minority then) - was bad for rural America. He wanted a cheaper dollar backed by silver that would help farmers repay their debts. Of course, this would have reduced the purchasing power of urban factory dwellers, but he didn't care about them. In any case, Bryan didn't get his way, & the gold-backed dollar lived on for another 30+ years.
My point is this: the post-Civil War decades were great for industrial America - big manufacturing corporations were hiring millions - not only for jobs on factory floors but for middle-class jobs in management, bookkeeping & sales. But this happened on the backs of American farmers. We've forgotten about this.
Farms could no longer support large numbers of Americans, so what happened next - the industrialization of agriculture & the eventual birth of corporate farming - was no surprise. Gasoline-powered machines replaced people & animals. In 1900, more than half of us lived on farms. By 1950 - considerably less than a lifetime later - only 15% did. Just 20 years after that, the farm population was down to less than 2%. That represents an enormous population shift during a very short time.
For most of the 1st half of our history, we were an agricultural country. Then, for a few decades, we were primarily a manufacturing country. Now, our economy is based on services. You can wish that we had remained a manufacturing country (actually, we're still 1 of the world's 4 leading manufacturers, along with Japan, Germany & China), but that's no more realistic (& probably less attractive) than wishing that we were still a nation of Jeffersonian small farmers.
Once someone figured out that you could harness steam to make stuff cheaply, the only thing that you could count on was rapid, unpredictable change. There's no switch that you can throw to stop the process.
All part of the reason there are no simple answers to the question of "buying American".
I usually build my computers. Depending on my selection of components, at least 6 different countries might be represented in my final build. For example, Asus, my longtime favorite motherboard manufacturer, makes its products in Taiwan - but who knows where Asus buys the chipsets it uses on its boards? If I pick a Samsung HDD, I'm obviously getting a Korean drive, but I also use Western Digital & Seagate, both of which are American companies that manufacture in Singapore & the PRC. ATI video cards are (or were at one time) made in Canada, but ATI was acquired by AMD, an American company, a few years ago. My Intel processor might be U.S. made or it might come from 1 of Intel's overseas plants. In any case, Intel is an American company.
So where was my computer made? The obvious answer is "on my kitchen counter", but the truth is that I don't know. What is true of computers today will be true of cars (& other complex products) tomorrow - if it isn't already. These things will no longer be made entirely & exclusively in just one country.
Even if you buy, say, an S-class Mercedes because you want a pure German product, chances are that much (if not most or all) of the electronics in the car will come from Asia.
While I genuinely value your allegiance, I would suggest you forget about where the product is made and research how it fits into your value proposition before your spend.
Why limit yourself?
There was a time when I despised German goods as my Dad participated in WWII and the unconscious allegiance to Hitler.
However, in the 30+ years since GM ruled the automotive landscape in the USA, I really can appreciate the massive inherent performance, fit and finish and build quality of their luxury auto products. There was a time when they DID NOT have quality befitting a GM, but that time is DEAD AND GONE....Long Gone!
Now, Caddy is TOAST and Buick is, well Chinese. :shades:
Excellent post. A I've said before, all things being equal I'll buy the US manufactured product- but that usually isn't all that simple. For example, I buy virtally all my home theater cables and interconnects from a Washington based company known as Blue Jeans Cable. The HDMI cables I bought utilize raw cable manufactured by Belden(a US manufacturer. However,the cable has to be sent to China to have the HDMI plugs attached. Then there's my Rotel CD player- a British firm utilizing Phillips(Netherlands) DACs and assembled in Asia...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
There's more to my allegiance to Cadillac besides being American. Number one, I believe Cadillac is the most attractive car on the market and always have. I've been in love with Cadillac ever since I saw a neighbor's 1963 Sedan DeVille when I was three years-old. I've aspired to own a new Cadillac since then.
I've had very good luck with Cadillac. I've owned five of them: a 1975 Cadillac Sedan DeVille, a 1989 Cadillac Brougham, a 1994 Cadillac DeVille, a 2002 Cadillac Seville STS, and a 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance. If these were bad cars, I wouldn't constantly buy them. A burned-out bulb will drive me bananas. I certainly won't stand for serious mechanical or electrical maladies. Why should I look elsewhere when I've had good luck at Cadillac?
I've heard too many horror stories about German luxury vehicles. Parts, repair, and service are at least double or triple what they'd be for a Cadillac. It's one thing to buy a Mercedes or BMW, but quite another to keep up with it. I'm not going to let a car bankrupt me. I've heard dealership technicians are largely incompetent and extremely expensive and that you're best off finding an independent technician for German iron. That's kind of tough in the city of Philadelphia. There was an Audi specialist not too far away from me, but he closed up shop months ago. My brother-in-law has a Mercedes S430 that is plagued with gremlims. I'd have given up on this car a long time ago, but I guess he's too proud to admit defeat.
Hyundai? It isn't even on my radar. Maybe that weird styling flies in Seoul, but it won't play in Philly. I'm more likely to see a McLaren F-1 on the street than a Genesis or an Equus.
I've had very good luck with Cadillac. I've owned five of them: a 1975 Cadillac Sedan DeVille, a 1989 Cadillac Brougham, a 1994 Cadillac DeVille, a 2002 Cadillac Seville STS, and a 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance. If these were bad cars, I wouldn't constantly buy them. A burned-out bulb will drive me bananas. I certainly won't stand for serious mechanical or electrical maladies. Why should I look elsewhere when I've had good luck at Cadillac?
I feel the same way about BMW; I've owned nine: Two Bavarias, a 535is, an M6, two 318tis, a 528i, an X3, and a 1975 2002A. I want a fast and comfortable RWD car with a manual transmission- one that can carry a high average speed on both a twisting two lane AND a ruler-straight interstate. And I expect it to handle several track days per year without needing more than tires or brakes.
It's one thing to buy a Mercedes or BMW, but quite another to keep up with it. I'm not going to let a car bankrupt me.
Tell me about it, the maintenance and repair costs on my 121K mile 3 Series and 99K mile X3 are currently averaging 5 cents per mile for each. An Inspection I(30K mile service) and a brake fluid flush for the X3 recently cost all of $350. Chapter 7 here I come...
Funny thing though, I've never felt the need to justify my choices by bad-mouthing other luxury marques.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Tell me about it, the maintenance and repair costs on my 121K mile 3 Series and 99K mile X3 are currently averaging 5 cents per mile for each. An Inspection I(30K mile service) and a brake fluid flush for the X3 recently cost all of $350. Chapter 7 here I come...
That's downright cheap! Heck, I'm already into my 2000 Park Ave about 6.4 cents per mile, and I've only had it since December and only put 6,000 miles on it. Back in April, I spent $362.58 to have them do an oil change, replace two swaybar links, and change the oil in the supercharger.
So where does BMW and the like get the perception of being expensive to maintain, then? Is it mainly the bigger models, like the 5, 6, and 7 Series? I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about a 3-Series putting them out on the street. I think my buddy with the 2002 or so 5-series did have a couple major repairs here and there, though.
Well, the 7-Series and the S-Class is where I would be. The 5-Series and E-Class and below are way too small for me. I saw what happened with my BIL's car. It's a good thing he's got very deep pockets.
So where does BMW and the like get the perception of being expensive to maintain, then? Is it mainly the bigger models, like the 5, 6, and 7 Series?
The 7 Series cars and the V8 5 Series tend to be the most expensive to maintain as they tend to have elaborate mechanicals, electronics and luxury features. That said, a lot of the "BMWs are expensive to fix" stories are a combination of sour grapes and hearsay- such as, "My brother-in-law's best friend's cousin goes to a barber who said that he knows a guy who read on the internet that BMW oil changes cost $1000." One of my long time friends is a guy who always drove American products; he has a stunning '55 Chevy and a 1937 Plymouth street rod. About 10 years ago he saw a nice 3 Series at a local auction. His wife had wanted a BMW so he bid on it and won. I showed him where to get parts and decent service. Fast forward to today- his wife is now driving an X3 and his oldest son -a UAW member who works at Ford- has another 3 Series.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I would also add the V-12 models for the German makes don't do the brand any favors on the maintenance front.
Mercs V8's are supposedly tight and very well built, especially the handbuilt AMG engines. Audi's larger engines were re-engineered a couple of years ago to be nearly "stress free" and the 4.2 litre has won numerous accolades for being a reliable workhorse.
BMW, I find them to put their best effort into their 6 cylinders (no experience in their 4's here) which is why I believe the V8 goes towards lower selling niche models. Thier 4.4 and bored counterparts must be over a decade old by now?
Electronics-wise is where the German cars show their trouble spots. I-drive caught a ton of flack as did the COMMAND system in the Mercs (although not as much flack from the editors) and all the gadgetry and geewizardry that goes into them, I'm not surprised their are issues here. They really are at the forefront of new technologies. :shades:
I would also add the V-12 models for the German makes don't do the brand any favors on the maintenance front.
The engines themselves are pretty stout- it's the ancillaries that are problematic.
BMW, I find them to put their best effort into their 6 cylinders (no experience in their 4's here) which is why I believe the V8 goes towards lower selling niche models.
Yes, the sixes are first rate, and the fours are nice as well. The M42 inline four in my 1995 3 series has only needed a thermostat and a couple of idler pulleys replaced- although I did replace the timing chain tensioner with an upgraded version as a precaution(it cost a whole $44 and took all of 15 minutes to install). At 80 mph in top gear it is spinning at 4000 rpm- all the while returning 30-32 mpg.
That said, I'm still sorely tempted by the E39(2000-2003) M5; most enthusiast magazines on both sides of the pond considered it to be the best sports sedan of its day. After 7+ years it's still an amazing car.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Those are E39's my favorite years as well. They still command a hefty dollar on the used market, especially with the 6-speed
My friend has a couple of eighties 6 series, a 635 and a almost flawless M6. Both of them are running great and have required very little maintenance.
He also has a 2005 330i with 260 thousand miles as his daily driver. I drove it a while back and it drove like a brand new car (all relative of course). Even with the dent in the side from being charged by a Moose in NH (seriously) and being driven very hard while he has owned it, it seem sto be holding up very well.
On a side note, it's great to hear your experience with the X3 has been positive. I've been shopping something a little more upscale from my little Scoobiedoo and besides shopping the usual candidates from Acura, Inifiniti, Volvo, and even a 3.6R Outback, I have been holding out for the next generation X3 as well. Glad to hear the first gen that you have is holding up well.
Glad to hear the first gen that you have is holding up well.
Thanks. In almost 100K miles it's needed one warranty repair(a passenger seat airbag sensor), a set of brakes, and two sets of tires. Can't complain about that.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I've had people tell me they think a MB oil change is hundreds and hundreds of dollars too. Of course, these people also think my old fintail must be worth 50K or more and that my E55 is brand new. It's hard for us car freaks to understand the logic of non-car people.
From what I can tell regarding German engines, the 6s and tuned V8s do tend to be the most solid.
If I had an MB, it would cost what Roadburner spends....oil & filter only. Save your worries for the electronics and the maintenance you can do for pennies on the mile will keep it going for a long, long time....unless it's a GM, that is!
I've heard too many horror stories about German luxury vehicles. Parts, repair, and service are at least double or triple what they'd be for a Cadillac. It's one thing to buy a Mercedes or BMW, but quite another to keep up with it. I'm not going to let a car bankrupt me. I've heard dealership technicians are largely incompetent and extremely expensive and that you're best off finding an independent technician for German iron.
Wow lemko, as soon as I read that I immediately thought you described my 30 some years of service experience with GM products to a T. I did follow your advice on not letting the German vehicles bankrupt me, except you can replace the word German with American in my case
I maintain the E55 by the book, so it costs more...the fintail the other hand only gets normal fluid changes and such,nothing too big - its so old now that a hundred things could potentially need replacement, but few are really important. The modern car hasn't much more than a similarly aged normal car to keep on the road, IMO.
Regarding the technicians, certainly...if you have an out of warranty Euro, find an indy mechanic, often the service is as good or even better than the dealer, and anything greater than an oil change will usually be done at a significant savings.
Once someone figured out that you could harness steam to make stuff cheaply, the only thing that you could count on was rapid, unpredictable change. There's no switch that you can throw to stop the process.
I'm impressed with your knowledge of 19th and early 20th century history...really.
Wouldn't you say, though, that some farmers gave it up voluntarily to work union jobs in the first half of the 20th century, where they made maybe even more money than through farming? This would explain the huge influx of people moving from the south to Detroit, and also from West Virginia to Akron, near where I live, for good-paying jobs. I don't see farming jobs having just disappeared, as U.S. autoworker (and supplier) jobs have in the past twenty or so years.
Yes, change is inevitable, but I'm always reminded of every feel-good book handed out by employers for employees to read, when people talk about embracing change.
I make more money than my Dad would have ever been able to fathom. I have a job where I can work at home every couple of weeks. I grew up in a small town. I think small-town/rural folks maybe have more empathy in general for people--I always thought that a square-mile is a square-mile whether you live in rural Kansas or NYC--but if you have to share that square-mile with fewer people, you'll probably be less likely to think only of yourself and more of those around you. Just MHO of course.
My hometown, of less than 10K, ever, in western PA, has suffered because an 80-year old railbuilding operation moved to Mexico shortly after NAFTA passed. The Mexican plant's orders were frequently returned due to defects, early on, But our town never recovered. And for what? So the company could pay slave wages in Mexico. No jobs in my hometown were ever lost because of jobs moving to Canada.
Is change for the better? I'm 52. When I think of change in the past twenty-five or so years, here's what hits me most:
1) No one works for one company their whole career anymore. 2) Most workers live in fairly-constant fear of being downsized. 3) There are fewer locally-owned businesses (car dealers, for examples). 4) You must pump your own gas, get your own ticket at the airport, check yourself out in the grocery line, and go through numerous menus on the phone to end up getting someone in the Middle East who has language issues to help you. (One exception: I had to call Modern Woodmen in Rock Island, IL a few weeks back and the very first ring was picked up by a human who directed me to the right person promptly!). 5) People who used to be able to get a decent job without college now work at WalMart or other dismal retail service job.
There's plenty of blame to go around for sure, but I think these things hardly spell an increase in the quality of life.
I'd rather life the way it was when there was plenty of manufacturing in the states and I even preferred the car-buying and ownership experience up until the mid-80's or so, to now. All things considered....
I'm not seeing a whole lot of change for the common good in the past couple decades.
Let the derision begin!
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Just my 2 cents - My Buicks in the last 10 years have required minimum book service - oil, filter, move the wheels around every 5K. Stainless steel exhaust eliminates the every-other-year visit to Midas Muffler. 40K-50K tire life; but those $200.00+ each replacements - ouch! Modern ABS brake systems are more expensive to service - I always go to the dealer because anything beyond mere pads needs his know-how and equipment. Every 60K - 100K at the dealer costs at least $500.00+ for what used to be called a major tuneup - mainly because 1/2 the car comes off to reach around the engine. Let's hear it for long-life plugs!
OTOH, my Toyota's [yes, the wife has one] manual is full of excessive "check this, check that" maintenance items every 25K, or so. And the cost of parts! JMEVSHO, but foreign makes' bits seem to cost even more than the exhorbitant Goodwrench items.
Finally, BMW's and Mercs - those are luxo brands whose upkeep has always been higher than mass-market cars. From purchase to junkyard, you should expect to pay more for their higher quality.
I couldn't have said it any better myself! From an urban perspective, there was a lot less violent crime and better quality of life when people were sewing Botany 500 suits, forging Dodge steel, and building Budd railroad cars, than being chronically unemployed, slingin' rocks on the corner, and cappin' people. Philadephia used to be called "The Workshop of the World!" Now it's got the inenviable nickname "Killadelphia."
Do you live in an area where they throw an ocean's worth of salt on the road to visit Midas Muffler every other year? That's one thing that has pretty much been eliminated with modern cars. I can't remember ever needing a visit to the muffler shop with my last three new cars.
I can't remember ever needing a visit to the muffler shop with my last three new cars.
I think I've had to replace three mufflers in the past 20 years. Had to do my '85 Silverado back in late 2006, but that was the original muffler, so I'm not complaining! I put a new dual exhaust on my '68 Dart way back in 1993 (okay, so that makes it 4 mufflers, then). And my '69 Dart GT needed a new muffler to pass inspection back in 1990.
Oh, wait...the muffler did fall off of my '79 5th Ave awhile back, but I haven't gotten around to replacing it yet. Catalytic converter is still on the car, so at least it's running clean...if loud! :shades:
Oh, speaking of Hemis, almost forgot the DeSoto! It's getting a complete new exhaust system while it's at the mechanic. The mufflers are actually okay, if mis-matched, but the pipes have holes here and there, and I figured it would be best to just get it done all at once. The mufflers were replaced sometime before I got the car, and I've had it almost 20 years now. So I'd say they served their purpose.
"Ford Motor Co. will receive $250 million in government financing that will help it export more than 200,000 vehicles, the White House said today.
"The announcement comes as President Barack Obama is to tour Ford's Chicago Assembly Plant today and speak to 1,700 workers. Obama also will tout his call to double U.S. exports over five years.
"The Export-Import Bank of the United States will announce later today a new loan guarantee for Ford that will finance $3.1 billion of export sales for more than 200,000 vehicles to buyers in Canada and Mexico."
From now on Ford will be referred to as "Federal Motors." :P
Same experience with my last two Buick Park Ave's... a 93 and a 02..... 31mpg and zero problems of any significance... The [non-permissible content removed] car owners were cheated of quality but just didn't know it.
Well the LaCrosse is built here in the US, isn't it? I wonder what the % of US content is? I'd still prefer to buy a car that's mostly built here, regardless of the name, than something that was shipped over from somewhere else. But I love the Pontiac G8, so maybe that makes me a bit of a hypocrite? :P
From now on Ford will be referred to as "Federal Motors."
You may want to read up on the EX/IM Bank. I think your label of Ford is incorrect and instead this LOAN (not an equity infusion) shows the advantage of company's having some outsiders in their executive suites like Mulally. The bank offers loans at attractive rates to US companies seeking to obtain overseas sales. It is used by many corporations. For example, it can help Boeing land a large overseas sale, or GE sell turbines and power generation to foreign companies. Most countries around the world have something similar. I think any executive that doesn't take advantage of this is doing a disservice to their stockholders and employees to grow the business.
I just looked and you and Lemko are correct. I thought it was Canadian.
So let me rephrase the question then...
Is it more patriotic to buy a Lacrosse, Regal, Snuze, Spark or any other GM that was designed (and may contain a good amount of content from those places) in Germany, China, Korea than it is to buy a Insert import brand and model here that was designed, engineered (maybe even exclusive to the US market), and built here?
I guess my point is those that have a beef with anything imported and those who buy imports, isn't buying a model from the D3 who are essentially doing the same thing (globalization) deserving of the same criticism?
Government money is government money. I've heard so many critique the dollars receiving by the workers and the GM company even though most if not all of that is on the way to being paid back when IPO proceeds, that I can be just as deaf as a few are in re GM.
>Any executive...disservice to their stockholders and employees...
I could not agree more about the responsibility of a company to perpetuate jobs and benefit the country with their own brand of US marque vehicles in the way that GM did by accepting the government subsidy to help them through the rough economic period caused by the overexuberance of Congress.
I guess my point is those that have a beef with anything imported and those who buy imports, isn't buying a model from the D3 who are essentially doing the same thing (globalization) deserving of the same criticism?
Doesn't that question usually raise the battle cry of "BUT THE PROFITS STAY IN AMERICA!!" :P
Umm, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the profits usually go to the shareholders? Or, they get reinvested back in the company to stay competitive, which again, is good for the shareholders?
I had this debate at the GM show in Carlisle in 2009, with a guy who has a '67 Bonneville convertible. He was parked next to my '67 Catalina. He wanted to blame the car buyers for the way the economy was, that if we had bought American cars, more money would stay in the country. But when I pointed out about all the GM vehicles that come from Canada, Mexico, Australia, Korea, or wherever, he pulled the profits stay in America routine. When I said that the profits go to the shareholders, he just responded with "I don't own any auto stock!" I kept my mouth shut, about the fact that I owned some Toyota stock at the time. I sold it, at a slight profit, right around the time the sudden acceleration stuff hit the fan.
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Metals are made from minerals, and we need vitamins and minerals, right? :shades:
If the Cars.com American-Made Index has done anything, it has raised the level of discussion on what defines an American car. That’s why it comes as only a mild surprise to find out that the third-largest domestic producer of automobiles in the U.S. is Honda...
And when, despite Jefferson's fervent wishes, the Industrial Revolution came to America, it ruined the lives of tens of thousands of craftsmen, many of whom had served long apprenticeships to learn their skills. Steam power & mass production made them obsolete & irrelevant. The best that they could hope for was a job in a hot, noisy, dangerous factory for an hourly wage that was a fraction of what they had earned as independent businessmen. Although the lemkos of the day railed against them, factories were here to stay for a simple reason: for every displaced & unemployed craftsman, there were a thousand consumers who could now buy things that they couldn't afford previously.
By the end of the 1800s, when Bryan delivered his "Cross of Gold" speech, farmers were in agony. Decades of price deflation, caused by an expensive, gold-backed dollar, meant that food was cheaper in 1895 than it had been in 1865. This was good for factory workers & other city dwellers, but most Americans still lived on farms; for them, lower food prices equaled lower income. Farmers were forced to repay their debts in dollars that were worth more than the dollars they had originally borrowed. In most years, the cost of shipping a bushel of grain from, say, Kansas to markets in Chicago exceeded the value of the grain itself.
This was the impetus behind Bryan's speech: what was good for urban America - factory workers & their bosses (still a minority then) - was bad for rural America. He wanted a cheaper dollar backed by silver that would help farmers repay their debts. Of course, this would have reduced the purchasing power of urban factory dwellers, but he didn't care about them. In any case, Bryan didn't get his way, & the gold-backed dollar lived on for another 30+ years.
My point is this: the post-Civil War decades were great for industrial America - big manufacturing corporations were hiring millions - not only for jobs on factory floors but for middle-class jobs in management, bookkeeping & sales. But this happened on the backs of American farmers. We've forgotten about this.
Farms could no longer support large numbers of Americans, so what happened next - the industrialization of agriculture & the eventual birth of corporate farming - was no surprise. Gasoline-powered machines replaced people & animals. In 1900, more than half of us lived on farms. By 1950 - considerably less than a lifetime later - only 15% did. Just 20 years after that, the farm population was down to less than 2%. That represents an enormous population shift during a very short time.
For most of the 1st half of our history, we were an agricultural country. Then, for a few decades, we were primarily a manufacturing country. Now, our economy is based on services. You can wish that we had remained a manufacturing country (actually, we're still 1 of the world's 4 leading manufacturers, along with Japan, Germany & China), but that's no more realistic (& probably less attractive) than wishing that we were still a nation of Jeffersonian small farmers.
Once someone figured out that you could harness steam to make stuff cheaply, the only thing that you could count on was rapid, unpredictable change. There's no switch that you can throw to stop the process.
I usually build my computers. Depending on my selection of components, at least 6 different countries might be represented in my final build. For example, Asus, my longtime favorite motherboard manufacturer, makes its products in Taiwan - but who knows where Asus buys the chipsets it uses on its boards? If I pick a Samsung HDD, I'm obviously getting a Korean drive, but I also use Western Digital & Seagate, both of which are American companies that manufacture in Singapore & the PRC. ATI video cards are (or were at one time) made in Canada, but ATI was acquired by AMD, an American company, a few years ago. My Intel processor might be U.S. made or it might come from 1 of Intel's overseas plants. In any case, Intel is an American company.
So where was my computer made? The obvious answer is "on my kitchen counter", but the truth is that I don't know. What is true of computers today will be true of cars (& other complex products) tomorrow - if it isn't already. These things will no longer be made entirely & exclusively in just one country.
Even if you buy, say, an S-class Mercedes because you want a pure German product, chances are that much (if not most or all) of the electronics in the car will come from Asia.
Why limit yourself?
There was a time when I despised German goods as my Dad participated in WWII and the unconscious allegiance to Hitler.
However, in the 30+ years since GM ruled the automotive landscape in the USA, I really can appreciate the massive inherent performance, fit and finish and build quality of their luxury auto products. There was a time when they DID NOT have quality befitting a GM, but that time is DEAD AND GONE....Long Gone!
Now, Caddy is TOAST and Buick is, well Chinese. :shades:
Long Live Hyundai! "See the USA in a HY On DAY!"
Regards,
OW
At the end of the day, ask yourself a question...Do you want to regress or advance?
The former SEEMS easier but the latter is the challenge...and the path that awareness beckons.
Regards,
OW
Depends upon how you define progress. :P
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Oh and I love the ASUS as well, every new machine I have built gets speced out with one of thier boards. :shades:
I've had very good luck with Cadillac. I've owned five of them: a 1975 Cadillac Sedan DeVille, a 1989 Cadillac Brougham, a 1994 Cadillac DeVille, a 2002 Cadillac Seville STS, and a 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance. If these were bad cars, I wouldn't constantly buy them. A burned-out bulb will drive me bananas. I certainly won't stand for serious mechanical or electrical maladies. Why should I look elsewhere when I've had good luck at Cadillac?
I've heard too many horror stories about German luxury vehicles. Parts, repair, and service are at least double or triple what they'd be for a Cadillac. It's one thing to buy a Mercedes or BMW, but quite another to keep up with it. I'm not going to let a car bankrupt me. I've heard dealership technicians are largely incompetent and extremely expensive and that you're best off finding an independent technician for German iron. That's kind of tough in the city of Philadelphia. There was an Audi specialist not too far away from me, but he closed up shop months ago. My brother-in-law has a Mercedes S430 that is plagued with gremlims. I'd have given up on this car a long time ago, but I guess he's too proud to admit defeat.
Hyundai? It isn't even on my radar. Maybe that weird styling flies in Seoul, but it won't play in Philly. I'm more likely to see a McLaren F-1 on the street than a Genesis or an Equus.
I feel the same way about BMW; I've owned nine: Two Bavarias, a 535is, an M6, two 318tis, a 528i, an X3, and a 1975 2002A. I want a fast and comfortable RWD car with a manual transmission- one that can carry a high average speed on both a twisting two lane AND a ruler-straight interstate. And I expect it to handle several track days per year without needing more than tires or brakes.
It's one thing to buy a Mercedes or BMW, but quite another to keep up with it. I'm not going to let a car bankrupt me.
Tell me about it, the maintenance and repair costs on my 121K mile 3 Series and 99K mile X3 are currently averaging 5 cents per mile for each. An Inspection I(30K mile service) and a brake fluid flush for the X3 recently cost all of $350. Chapter 7 here I come...
Funny thing though, I've never felt the need to justify my choices by bad-mouthing other luxury marques.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
LOL, I think the maintenace costs more than that on my wifes Outback!
I may be wrong Lemko, but doesn't your DTS have under 15 thousand miles on it? You'll be at 100k in what 15 years?
That's downright cheap! Heck, I'm already into my 2000 Park Ave about 6.4 cents per mile, and I've only had it since December and only put 6,000 miles on it. Back in April, I spent $362.58 to have them do an oil change, replace two swaybar links, and change the oil in the supercharger.
So where does BMW and the like get the perception of being expensive to maintain, then? Is it mainly the bigger models, like the 5, 6, and 7 Series? I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about a 3-Series putting them out on the street. I think my buddy with the 2002 or so 5-series did have a couple major repairs here and there, though.
The 7 Series cars and the V8 5 Series tend to be the most expensive to maintain as they tend to have elaborate mechanicals, electronics and luxury features. That said, a lot of the "BMWs are expensive to fix" stories are a combination of sour grapes and hearsay- such as, "My brother-in-law's best friend's cousin goes to a barber who said that he knows a guy who read on the internet that BMW oil changes cost $1000."
One of my long time friends is a guy who always drove American products; he has a stunning '55 Chevy and a 1937 Plymouth street rod. About 10 years ago he saw a nice 3 Series at a local auction. His wife had wanted a BMW so he bid on it and won. I showed him where to get parts and decent service. Fast forward to today- his wife is now driving an X3 and his oldest son -a UAW member who works at Ford- has another 3 Series.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Mercs V8's are supposedly tight and very well built, especially the handbuilt AMG engines. Audi's larger engines were re-engineered a couple of years ago to be nearly "stress free" and the 4.2 litre has won numerous accolades for being a reliable workhorse.
BMW, I find them to put their best effort into their 6 cylinders (no experience in their 4's here) which is why I believe the V8 goes towards lower selling niche models. Thier 4.4 and bored counterparts must be over a decade old by now?
Electronics-wise is where the German cars show their trouble spots. I-drive caught a ton of flack as did the COMMAND system in the Mercs (although not as much flack from the editors) and all the gadgetry and geewizardry that goes into them, I'm not surprised their are issues here. They really are at the forefront of new technologies. :shades:
The engines themselves are pretty stout- it's the ancillaries that are problematic.
BMW, I find them to put their best effort into their 6 cylinders (no experience in their 4's here) which is why I believe the V8 goes towards lower selling niche models.
Yes, the sixes are first rate, and the fours are nice as well. The M42 inline four in my 1995 3 series has only needed a thermostat and a couple of idler pulleys replaced- although I did replace the timing chain tensioner with an upgraded version as a precaution(it cost a whole $44 and took all of 15 minutes to install).
At 80 mph in top gear it is spinning at 4000 rpm- all the while returning 30-32 mpg.
That said, I'm still sorely tempted by the E39(2000-2003) M5; most enthusiast magazines on both sides of the pond considered it to be the best sports sedan of its day. After 7+ years it's still an amazing car.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
My friend has a couple of eighties 6 series, a 635 and a almost flawless M6. Both of them are running great and have required very little maintenance.
He also has a 2005 330i with 260 thousand miles as his daily driver. I drove it a while back and it drove like a brand new car (all relative of course). Even with the dent in the side from being charged by a Moose in NH (seriously) and being driven very hard while he has owned it, it seem sto be holding up very well.
On a side note, it's great to hear your experience with the X3 has been positive. I've been shopping something a little more upscale from my little Scoobiedoo and besides shopping the usual candidates from Acura, Inifiniti, Volvo, and even a 3.6R Outback, I have been holding out for the next generation X3 as well. Glad to hear the first gen that you have is holding up well.
Thanks. In almost 100K miles it's needed one warranty repair(a passenger seat airbag sensor), a set of brakes, and two sets of tires. Can't complain about that.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
From what I can tell regarding German engines, the 6s and tuned V8s do tend to be the most solid.
JK, Lemko, JK.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Wow lemko, as soon as I read that I immediately thought you described my 30 some years of service experience with GM products to a T. I did follow your advice on not letting the German vehicles bankrupt me, except you can replace the word German with American in my case
Regarding the technicians, certainly...if you have an out of warranty Euro, find an indy mechanic, often the service is as good or even better than the dealer, and anything greater than an oil change will usually be done at a significant savings.
I'm impressed with your knowledge of 19th and early 20th century history...really.
Wouldn't you say, though, that some farmers gave it up voluntarily to work union jobs in the first half of the 20th century, where they made maybe even more money than through farming? This would explain the huge influx of people moving from the south to Detroit, and also from West Virginia to Akron, near where I live, for good-paying jobs. I don't see farming jobs having just disappeared, as U.S. autoworker (and supplier) jobs have in the past twenty or so years.
Yes, change is inevitable, but I'm always reminded of every feel-good book handed out by employers for employees to read, when people talk about embracing change.
I make more money than my Dad would have ever been able to fathom. I have a job where I can work at home every couple of weeks. I grew up in a small town. I think small-town/rural folks maybe have more empathy in general for people--I always thought that a square-mile is a square-mile whether you live in rural Kansas or NYC--but if you have to share that square-mile with fewer people, you'll probably be less likely to think only of yourself and more of those around you. Just MHO of course.
My hometown, of less than 10K, ever, in western PA, has suffered because an 80-year old railbuilding operation moved to Mexico shortly after NAFTA passed. The Mexican plant's orders were frequently returned due to defects, early on, But our town never recovered. And for what? So the company could pay slave wages in Mexico. No jobs in my hometown were ever lost because of jobs moving to Canada.
Is change for the better? I'm 52. When I think of change in the past twenty-five or so years, here's what hits me most:
1) No one works for one company their whole career anymore.
2) Most workers live in fairly-constant fear of being downsized.
3) There are fewer locally-owned businesses (car dealers, for examples).
4) You must pump your own gas, get your own ticket at the airport, check yourself out in the grocery line, and go through numerous menus on the phone to end up getting someone in the Middle East who has language issues to help you. (One exception: I had to call Modern Woodmen in Rock Island, IL a few weeks back and the very first ring was picked up by a human who directed me to the right person promptly!).
5) People who used to be able to get a decent job without college now work at WalMart or other dismal retail service job.
There's plenty of blame to go around for sure, but I think these things hardly spell an increase in the quality of life.
I'd rather life the way it was when there was plenty of manufacturing in the states and I even preferred the car-buying and ownership experience up until the mid-80's or so, to now. All things considered....
I'm not seeing a whole lot of change for the common good in the past couple decades.
Let the derision begin!
OTOH, my Toyota's [yes, the wife has one] manual is full of excessive "check this, check that" maintenance items every 25K, or so. And the cost of parts! JMEVSHO, but foreign makes' bits seem to cost even more than the exhorbitant Goodwrench items.
Finally, BMW's and Mercs - those are luxo brands whose upkeep has always been higher than mass-market cars. From purchase to junkyard, you should expect to pay more for their higher quality.
I think I've had to replace three mufflers in the past 20 years. Had to do my '85 Silverado back in late 2006, but that was the original muffler, so I'm not complaining! I put a new dual exhaust on my '68 Dart way back in 1993 (okay, so that makes it 4 mufflers, then). And my '69 Dart GT needed a new muffler to pass inspection back in 1990.
Oh, wait...the muffler did fall off of my '79 5th Ave awhile back, but I haven't gotten around to replacing it yet.
That thing got a Hemi?
Ford gets government loan
"Ford Motor Co. will receive $250 million in government financing that will help it export more than 200,000 vehicles, the White House said today.
"The announcement comes as President Barack Obama is to tour Ford's Chicago Assembly Plant today and speak to 1,700 workers. Obama also will tout his call to double U.S. exports over five years.
"The Export-Import Bank of the United States will announce later today a new loan guarantee for Ford that will finance $3.1 billion of export sales for more than 200,000 vehicles to buyers in Canada and Mexico."
From now on Ford will be referred to as "Federal Motors." :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Do you feel it's patriotic to buy a
Lacrosse, Regal or an Allure?How about a Daewoo design like the Snuze or the Spark?
You may want to read up on the EX/IM Bank. I think your label of Ford is incorrect and instead this LOAN (not an equity infusion) shows the advantage of company's having some outsiders in their executive suites like Mulally. The bank offers loans at attractive rates to US companies seeking to obtain overseas sales. It is used by many corporations. For example, it can help Boeing land a large overseas sale, or GE sell turbines and power generation to foreign companies. Most countries around the world have something similar. I think any executive that doesn't take advantage of this is doing a disservice to their stockholders and employees to grow the business.
Or an Azera now being built in Lordstown, OHIO, same state where I live!!!
And Regal production will move to the US. Do I need to look up the plans for that?
I'll buy because it's a US car maker.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
So let me rephrase the question then...
Is it more patriotic to buy a Lacrosse, Regal, Snuze, Spark or any other GM that was designed (and may contain a good amount of content from those places) in Germany, China, Korea than it is to buy a Insert import brand and model here that was designed, engineered (maybe even exclusive to the US market), and built here?
I guess my point is those that have a beef with anything imported and those who buy imports, isn't buying a model from the D3 who are essentially doing the same thing (globalization) deserving of the same criticism?
Government money is government money. I've heard so many critique the dollars receiving by the workers and the GM company even though most if not all of that is on the way to being paid back when IPO proceeds, that I can be just as deaf as a few are in re GM.
>Any executive...disservice to their stockholders and employees...
I could not agree more about the responsibility of a company to perpetuate jobs and benefit the country with their own brand of US marque vehicles in the way that GM did by accepting the government subsidy to help them through the rough economic period caused by the overexuberance of Congress.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Doesn't that question usually raise the battle cry of "BUT THE PROFITS STAY IN AMERICA!!" :P
Umm, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the profits usually go to the shareholders? Or, they get reinvested back in the company to stay competitive, which again, is good for the shareholders?
I had this debate at the GM show in Carlisle in 2009, with a guy who has a '67 Bonneville convertible. He was parked next to my '67 Catalina. He wanted to blame the car buyers for the way the economy was, that if we had bought American cars, more money would stay in the country. But when I pointed out about all the GM vehicles that come from Canada, Mexico, Australia, Korea, or wherever, he pulled the profits stay in America routine. When I said that the profits go to the shareholders, he just responded with "I don't own any auto stock!" I kept my mouth shut, about the fact that I owned some Toyota stock at the time.