From an urban perspective, there was a lot less violent crime and better quality of life when people were sewing Botany 500 suits, forging Dodge steel, and building Budd railroad cars, than being chronically unemployed, slingin' rocks on the corner, and cappin' people. Philadephia used to be called "The Workshop of the World!" Now it's got the inenviable nickname "Killadelphia."
Isn't it true that violent crime is way down all over the US compared to 20, 30 years ago?
And the IPO appears to be on track for selling stock and getting back part of the government's investment. I wouldn't be surprised if the government makes money on this investment, besides having saved many jobs and spared many people agony worse than the midwest states have born.
Isn't it true that violent crime is way down all over the US compared to 20, 30 years ago?
I think it's down, but nowadays it gets publicized more. With 24/7 information getting thrown at us with the internet, satellite tv, et al, you can hear about the same murder hundreds of times over.
Another factor is that the news media, TV especially, tries to garner as much attention and create angst with reports of things that happen many states away by presenting it as though it happened in your township or city. E.g., the school buses crashing in Missouri yesterday killing two. It was led with teasers as though it happened right here to try to get people to watch and listen. Anything for a viewer to count.
In an earlier period, we would have read about it in the newspaper a day after it happened and it wouldn't seem nearly as relevant to our lives as the TV made it seem.
Excellent post. Thanks for taking the time to write it.
No, I certainly wouldn't say that all change is good. It would be closer to the truth to say that most change turns out to be good, in time, for most people. But someone's ox will be gored. You can count on that.
My take on history is that change is driven largely by technology. If a technological breakthrough makes it possible to do something, then someone will eventually figure out how to make money by doing it. Once the Wright brothers demonstrated heavier-than-air flight, it was pretty much inevitable that in time, you would pay through the nose for the privilege of flying coach, where you'd be wedged against the window by a fat, sweaty man in a cheap track suit while waiting for the flight attendant to hand you a box of stale cookies.
Go back to 1800. Back then, it took 6 weeks for the fastest sailing ship to travel from London to NY. Unlike today, information couldn't travel any faster. If gold prices were plunging on the London market, it would be at least 6 weeks before NY traders learned about it. Given these constraints, transatlantic trade was limited to a few high-profit items that could survive the long, uncertain trip: spices & expensive fabrics, for example, that only the wealthy could afford. (I'll leave the slave trade out of this discussion.) And even when these goods reached port, transporting them overland was a long, uncertain process. The best road in the U.S. in 1800 was one connecting NY & Boston. Even on that road, the trip took 3 days under the most favorable circumstances.
So it's not surprising that most Americans were largely self-sufficient, eating, wearing & using only what they could grow, sew or make. There was very little trade with the next county, let alone with distant countries.
Now jump forward to 1870 & you'll find an almost unrecognizably different world. Fast steamships make the trip between NY & London in comparative safety in less than a week. That overland trip to Boston now takes 4 or 5 hours by train. Most dramatically, information now moves across the Atlantic in minutes, thanks to the transatlantic telegraph cable, which was completed a few years earlier. So a NY merchant can cable his order to an English factory, get back a confirmation that same day & take delivery of his goods a few weeks later.
At this point, everything is in place to facilitate a trade explosion, & that's exactly what happened. Between the end of the Civil War & the beginning of the 1st World War, trade volumes skyrocketed. If you had a factory anywhere in the developed world, you could offer your goods to customers anywhere else in the developed world.
You could say, without exaggeration, that life for North Americans & Western Europeans changed more dramatically between 1800 & 1870 than it had during the 3,000 years leading up to 1800. Many - probably most - people saw big improvements in their living standards as a result. But more than a few people suffered. Urban populations made out much better than rural populations. Small towns bypassed by railroads turned into ghost towns. It's no wonder that the rail barons of the day were hated as much as bankers were - particularly by farmers, who needed the railroads to get their crops to market. (From the beginning, the Industrial Revolution has favored large, coastal cities over small towns like yours.)
The 2 World Wars & the intervening Great Depression sharply depressed world trade, which didn't bounce back until the 1960s. But it did, & here we are. And we're here, IMO, largely because of technological developments that took place a century or more before any of us was born. Outsourcing to Asia is simply the latest - & almost certainly not the last - step in a process that began more than 150 years ago. You can like it or hate it - I don't blame you for being unhappy about it - but you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.
And the IPO appears to be on track for selling stock and getting back part of the government's investment. I wouldn't be surprised if the government makes money on this investment, besides having saved many jobs and spared many people agony worse than the midwest states have born.
Is net profit the same as gross profit? I wonder if they are really making money?
I hope you are correct on the bailout and stock offering. That would be great. But I've seen analyst comments that GM would have to have stock valuation substantially higher than at its highest pricing during the peak sales years. Sounds difficult to me. But perhaps creative accounting by GM and the government can make it look that way. I know you trust Obama's comments that the taxpayers will get all of their money back.
I've read a couple of sources that state the initial stock price when the IPO is released will be over 100 dollars a share...
Hilarious. Roll on the floor laugh your butt off hilarious. Who is going to pay that?
Toyota stock at the moment is hovering around 70 - 75 dollars a share. At it's peak, before the Japan witch hunt came on full force it peaked about 90 dollars a share. Toyota currently has the most expensive (by far) stock prices of all the automakers. Honda I believe is second and they are at around 30 - 35 bucks per share right now?
With all the investors that lost their shirts in BK, I find it very difficult to believe that there will be many of them clamoring back up to take a risk on the next wave of Government Motors history let alone pay more than a share worth of Toyota stock for the privilage... :sick:
Wouldn't you say, though, that some farmers gave it up voluntarily to work union jobs in the first half of the 20th century, where they made maybe even more money than through farming? This would explain the huge influx of people moving from the south to Detroit, and also from West Virginia to Akron, near where I live, for good-paying jobs. I don't see farming jobs having just disappeared, as U.S. autoworker (and supplier) jobs have in the past twenty or so years.
Most of this movement took place during WWII, which created enormous pay differentials between farms & cities. When a farm worker accustomed to earning less than $50 per month could earn $100 (or more, depending on O/T) per week in a Ford plant that was building tanks for the Army, you didn't need a crystal ball to figure out what he would do.
By & large, these were landless farm laborers or sharecroppers, not farmers with equity in their land. For landowning farmers, the war was a mixed blessing. The government was ready to buy everything that they could grow, which kept prices up, but the draft & competition with war plants made labor scarcer & more expensive.
And yes, farm jobs for people who don't own land but who want to live in rural areas have largely disappeared. (My mother's family still has a few farmers.) These jobs have been automated out of existence over the past 50 years.
Heck, back before the market crash, TM was going for $100+. By late '06, it was up to around $120-125. Wish I'd thought to sell it then.
And it was relatively resilient during the market downturn. I think it bottomed around $58-60 per share in late '08. I bailed out in Jan'10, at $81.13/share, at a slight profit of about 4%. And, it usually paid a 3-4% dividend (based on what I paid for my shares, obviously the advertised dividend went down once the share prices went up). So, while it wasn't exactly a big money maker, at least I got out with the shirt on my back.
I think Ford stock is only around $12-13 right now?
I couldn't have said it any better myself! From an urban perspective, there was a lot less violent crime and better quality of life when people were sewing Botany 500 suits, forging Dodge steel, and building Budd railroad cars, than being chronically unemployed, slingin' rocks on the corner, and cappin' people. Philadephia used to be called "The Workshop of the World!" Now it's got the inenviable nickname "Killadelphia."
As I've pointed out several times before, violent crime rates in NY are at 45+ year lows. Sounds to me as if your city is mismanaged & badly policed. Don't mistake local incompetence for a national trend.
I was born in Philly. Thankfully, we moved out when I was 4.
BTW, no one has demonstrated a link between violent crime & unemployment. At worst, high unemployment might lead to an increase in petty crime, like shoplifting. But murder, armed robbery & the like? Nope.
"Federal Motors Government money is government money"
I'm sorry, but I guess I don't understand the premise of your position. It appears either you don't fully understand the global business environment, or you feel your principles are more important than the good of the country?
You do understand that the Export Import Bank charges interest on these loans and makes money? You do understand that not having this financing source in the US will put it at a disadvantage to most other countries that have similar, or even greater such programs when selling overseas?
I guess you'll be in a bit of a jam then because many, many US firms utilize this financing service so you won't be buying many US products. Forget flying on Boeing jetliners as well since they are a major user of EX/IM. That's OK, you can just buy foreign products instead. Oh wait a minute, many of them have taken advantage of government incentives to put plants in the US, so you'll want to make sure that you only buy things made elsewhere.
As an American, I find that just sad! Like it or not, the world will continue to get even more global in the future. If America fails to compete, we fail as well. Hopefully you are not just mislabeling Ford because you don't like the company.
I agree that the government will probably not get all of its GM money back, but they will likely get more than many pessimists expect. If the government could hold off liquidating its holdings for five years or so until the economy improves I think it might even make a profit, but that is politically impossible.
You have to be careful comparing company stock prices because the share price by itself doesn't mean a lot. It is impacted by revenue and profitability, but also by the number of share issued. Two identical companies can have different prices because they issued different numbers of shares.
I don't know; when I was a teen I'd have walked anyplace in my hometown alone and not think twice about it. I wouldn't do that now...and it's a small town. Speaking only for my hometown (down to 6K residents), they definitely have more crime than 30 years ago, when the main factory and others were doing well. Now, when I see the Pixar flick "Cars", I'm reminded of the old place.
It had so much going for it, and now it doesn't...which to me is sad. It's the plight of small, older towns around the nation, that don't happen to be right next to an interstate. Mine was a railroad town, but that's gone now. Until 1970 one could get on a train three times daily, west to Chicago, and three times daily, east to NYC. We had good schools, best in the county, and a good, established, small liberal arts college there (still there). We had a good and large (for the size of the town) local hospital. Now, you can't even give birth at that hospital...you have to go to one 20-25 miles away.
As far as I'm concerned, NAFTA is one of the worst things that ever happened in that the main plant in town closed and moved to Mexico shortly after that.
Except for VietNam (admittedly, a huge thing!), and women's and racial issues (the latter two I don't believe were issues where I grew up 30-40 years ago), I sure think that OVERALL, life was better then. Cars were more interesting, and resales held up better so a working stiff could, and wanted to, buy a new one every three years. I make a very comfortable income but even I won't do that now. And, I drive too many miles to lease. Does anybody remember how exciting it was when the new models came out in the fall? It was like a party at the dealership...donuts and cider and everybody you knew was there. Planned obsolescence? Bring it on!
I know you can't go back, but we've gone backwards in so many areas instead of forwards. Off my soapbox now.
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Most of this movement took place during WWII, which created enormous pay differentials between farms & cities. When a farm worker accustomed to earning less than $50 per month could earn $100 (or more,
I think most of this movement happened in the '20's and '30's...at least in NE OH where I live now. Remember, most every man was in the service during WWII and women were working in factories because of a shortage of manpower.
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Or a Cobalt built in Lordstown, OHIO, same state where I live!!!
I can hear the guffaws now, but I bought a new Cobalt in May of 2008. I live 30 miles from Lordstown where they are built, and people in the town I live in now, and also the town I grew up in, 30 miles on the other side of Lordstown, work there and Iike that feeling of 'contributing' even if in a small way, to the livelihood of my area.
But...I think people who will knock a Cobalt have never ridden in one! I ride to Harrisburg, PA every other week with a guy who has a 2005 Civic and also a 2009 Matrix. My Cobalt is absolutely quieter on the road (far less road noise) than either of his cars. But you won't read that anyplace I'm afraid. Even a third coworker, who's diehard Ford, offered that assessment to me without me bringing it up first.
I have an XFE, 4-door, a/c, 5-speed, satellite radio, ABS, side moldings and floor mats. That's it. It was $11.9K before my $2K GM Card rebate. I didn't finance the car and I never buy an extended warranty. With 37K miles on it now, I can still hardly believe that I paid under $10K for that car. And no, it wasn't because it was sitting around for months on a dealer lot. My dealer in NE OH went to Indianapolis to get it, since I wanted a strippo with ABS and four doors, and the dealer in Indy only had it eight days...I saw the invoice.
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Can you still get a Cobalt that cheaply? I know a stripper Cruze is going to run $16,275. Now I imagine they'll end up with incentives but $6K worth? Not likely.
I do see that even the basest of the base will have things like power windows and AC. I had an Accent rental - a 2010 model - that had crank windows.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
But...I think people who will knock a Cobalt have never ridden in one! I ride to Harrisburg, PA every other week with a guy who has a 2005 Civic and also a 2009 Matrix. My Cobalt is absolutely quieter on the road (far less road noise) than either of his cars. But you won't read that anyplace I'm afraid. Even a third coworker, who's diehard Ford, offered that assessment to me without me bringing it up first.
I've never driven nor ridden in a Cobalt; my only experience with them is sitting in them at auto shows. And it did something that no other car in its class is capable of...it fit me comfortably! I swear, the driving position isn't all that different from my 2000 Park Ave, my grandma's old '85 LeSabre, or my '76 Lemans. The seat goes back far enough for me (to be fair, I can actually get the LeMans into some obscene positions that are actually TOO far back for me), and the seat is high enough and far back enough that it doesn't leave my thighs hanging. The steering wheel is in a good position for me. And the door panel doesn't feel jammed up against me.
Now, once I get that seat where I want it, the back seat is horrible. But, I'd rather sacrifice the back seat for driver comfort.
The interior has a lot of hard plastic, but I think it's still presentable for this price class.
I find it a bit amusing that most people complain about how uncomfortable the Cobalt is, but it's the only car in the class that I feel comfortable in! With one exception...the 2000-2005 Neon. Those cars seemed like the poster child for everything that's wrong with the domestic small car, but they seemed to fit me perfectly. And, with the front seat all the way back, I could still get in the back comfortably.
It doesn't surprise me, actually, that the Cobalt is quieter than the other cars. I've heard that's one thing GM is actually pretty good at...silence and isolation. They also tend to make their cars feel like they're bigger than they really are. I've heard that about the Cobalt and HHR, and experienced it first-hand with the downsized FWD C and H (and G) cars. I remember driving my grandmother's cousin's '89 Coupe DeVille once, and thinking that it was so bulky and cumbersome feeling, what was the point in downsizing them then? And my 2000 Park Ave feels bulkier than it is. I swear my '79 5th Ave feels more nimble!
Most small car enthusiasts don't like big cars, so that might be why they rag on the Cobalt, because it has more of a big car feel? Still, there's a market that prefers the comfort and silence, so it's not all bad.
What kind of fuel economy do you get with your Cobalt when you take those trips to H-burg?
I get the advertised 37 mpg at 70 mph in the Cobalt XFE, going to Harrisburg (about 300 mile trip each way).
The sticker of my Cobalt was $15,465. I bought it for invoice ($14.9K) less the $3K rebate, less my $2K GM card earnings. I know MSRP has gone up since '08 and now you have to pay $100 for a spare tire (ridiculous)!
I'm interested in seeing the Cruze, and I'm glad it's built at Lordstown. My understanding is that just because the Cruze replaces the Cobalt, the plant that built the Cobalt didn't automatically get to build the Cruze. They (GM) constantly look at quality ratings and other things and the plant had to bid on building the Cruze.
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>I'm sorry, but I guess I don't understand the premise of your position
Taking government money is taking government money. Which part of gov ern ment is giving difficulty. I just heard a radio story this morning about a $22,000,000 chunk that's given to American companies. However, this is to train SE Asia workers to serve as IT phone center call takers. Government money is subsidizing sending more US potential jobs out of the country. But that must be part of your definition of globalization and that's good in your book--as long as the jobs leave the US?
Despite President Obama's pledge to retain more hi-tech jobs in the U.S., a federal agency run by a hand-picked Obama appointee has launched a $36 million program to train workers, including 3,000 specialists in IT and related functions, in South Asia.
I drove a [rented, with 40K miles] '07 Cobalt all over the Pacific Northwest three years ago. It was comfortable, even on long runs, had plenty of power for the many hills, averaged 35+ mpg; it even had a handy "Driver Info Center" showing MPG - just like the big cars! Much more "American" in feel than, say, a Corolla. The Cruze can only improve on it, IMO.
Things have gotten so bad where I am, I'm always packing heat when I walk the streets, (got a CCW permit). Such a thing would've been unthinkable in the Philly of 30-40 years ago.
How about how the average working person could afford a decent house without being in hock up to his eyeballs? How about how Dad could go to work and Mom could stay home and take care of the house and kids and could work if she chose to rather than needed to? How about almost nobody being in credit card debt? My parents were people of modest means, but I never remember being hungry. We could always take a nice vacation. Dad could buy a new Ford every couple years and either pay cash or finance it for no more than two or three years. We always had nice furniture and stuff. Dad only had a high school diploma and a short stint in the Navy under his belt and was able to raise three kids. I wouldn't dare try the same thing today. I'd be living in abject poverty.
"Taking government money is taking government money. Which part of gov ern ment is giving difficulty"
Let me try to explain the EX-IM Bank process to you. EX-IM helps arrange a private loan from another bank, etc. and then guarantees the loan. That guarantee usually lowers the interest rate because lender risk is reduced. It usually gets a piece of the interest or servicing fee for this. Government money only comes into it if the borrower defaults (in most all cases the government actually makes money from these deals). If you still insist Ford should be called Federal Motors for doing this, and what many US companies also do, then I guess you are just prejudiced against D3 and looking for a reason to slam them, and I'll just consider your future blogs related to D3 as biased in nature.
"I just heard a radio story this morning "
If you want to discuss business and economics you might be better off reading professional publications so you understand all of the aspects and perspectives involved in the issues, rather than relying on media sound bites. A lot of left and right wing pundits make a lot of money taking pieces out of context and firing up their listeners/viewers. By the way, deals must be to our country's advantage before EX-IM will guarantee a loan. There could only be some offshoring involved if there is far greater overall advantage to us. The world ain't flat and most large business deals around the globe are not one way. Unfortunately, in most deals some aspects end up winners while other aspects are on the short end. It's been that way throughout history.
" But that must be part of your definition of globalization and that's good in your book--as long as the jobs leave the US?"
That doesn't even make sense. In fact, all of D3 have recently brought more work in house and added US jobs. Honestly, you lose credibility with these kind of statements and conclusions. It makes it sound like you're grasping for something.
As for IT servicing and customer service, I understand your frustration if you work in those fields. However, some companies are also pulling some of that work back home. The software development aspect of the IT business is largely an American business and a large source of US exports. The only very large and successful foreign firm in that area I know is SAP which I believe is German.
"Despite President Obama's pledge"
Why do people always want to slam the president on everything? Like the president is actually involved at these micro levels. Before Obama it was always George Bush's fault. I guess blame is an easy way to get things off our shoulders. Whether I personally agree or not with their positions, I truly believe both of them are loyal Americans who want what is best for the country. You need to understand that the president does not have the power of a dictator to force everything to happen a certain way, people don't always agree on the problem or solution, and overall that's really a good thing.
I kind of like the Cobalt coupe and was thinking about when when gas prices went psychotic a couple years ago.
A couple of people suggested the Cobalt SS when I was looking at hot compacts back in 2007. Problem was, no hatchback and it had a five speed rather than a six speed manual. No matter how good the Cruze may be I won't consider it; the MS3 is my first and last FWD car. I shudder to think what I'd be driving if I felt the need to "support" my local Ford plants- either an F-150 of an Exploder. Yuk!!!.
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I've asked these questions twice before but haven't yet gotten an answer. I'm directing this specifically at the buy-American posters, but anyone who wants to can answer.
When you're shopping for a new car, do you use country of origin as a filter? In other words, do you look only at American cars when you're shopping? Or is it purely coincidental that all of the cars that you like happen to be American brands? For example, you really dig Buicks & you'd buy one even if it was made in, say, Sweden.
Suppose you fell in love with a non-American car. Would you refrain from buying it because its nationality was wrong? Or would you find a way to rationalize the purchase?
Well, if I were to support my local Ford plant, it would probably be a leftover Town Car or Grand Marquis as about the only choice I would seriously consider. Nothing else in Ford's lineup really appeals to me. Chrysler at least still has the 300 and Dodge Charger.
I don't consider foreign nameplates...but I ride in them plenty of times w/coworkers, and have gotten them many times as rental cars.
I usually think the styling of foreign nameplates is kind of 'alien' (no pun intended) and somewhat of a turn-off to me, but I admit I'm a traditionalist.
I've often waited for the 'ephiphany' I'm supposed to get when driving one, after getting out of one of my domestics, but it as of yet hasn't happened.
Some foreign cars I've thought were nicely styled: The second Maxima ('90's, with one wall-to-wall taillight in back); the Altima of six or so years ago (the one with factory 'tuner' taillights with chrome trim in them); the Sonata of a couple years ago, with a Ford Escort-like cut of the tops of the doors; the smaller Jags of seven or eight years ago.
I wouldn't consider them mostly because I want to buy domestic, but also because none of them had the dealer network of Chevrolet...at least until last year (sigh). My wonderful local dealer a mile away closed last year in the 'restructuring'. Luckily, most of the Service Dept. guys went to another dealer six or so miles away, but it's a drive in stop-and-go traffic to get there. I have often read that foreign-nameplate dealers have lower customer satisfaction ratings, in the sales and service areas, than the domestics in the past few years...more of a 'take it or leave it' attitude. I don't need that, although I realize each dealer is different.
There's my answer. I realize I open myself up to ridicule for saying this, but being from a family with many military members in the past, I think WWII hasn't been long enough away for me to forget the atrocities of Japan and Germany too. There are thousands on both sides, ours and 'theirs', that were alive then and know what that was all about. Maybe in twenty-five years, when nobody will be alive on other side who had anything to do with what went on then, I'll think again. Who knows.
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I think WWII hasn't been long enough away for me to forget the atrocities of Japan and Germany too. There are thousands on both sides, ours and 'theirs', that were alive then and know what that was all about.
My dad served in the AAC in WW II while a cousin on my mom's side flew with the Luftwaffe(in a Fw 190 -with a BMW 801 engine- WOOT!!!). So I have a Wrangler and the BMWs. Japan was a member of the Axis and Britain was one of our allies- so methinks that the Mazda and the Triumph even everything out. Simple!!!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
There's my answer. I realize I open myself up to ridicule for saying this, but being from a family with many military members in the past, I think WWII hasn't been long enough away for me to forget the atrocities of Japan and Germany too. There are thousands on both sides, ours and 'theirs', that were alive then and know what that was all about. Maybe in twenty-five years, when nobody will be alive on other side who had anything to do with what went on then, I'll think again. Who knows.
So... then does bother you that terrorists from the middle east attacked New York and killed 3000 Americans enough to put that middle eastern oil into the tank?
If you're driving your vehicles more than "foot power" will let you than I guess it doesn't...
With fossil fuel, unlike automobiles, there's not truly a choice. I do avoid Citgo for the affiliation with Hugo Chavez.
I'm not promoting my ideas in the hope of 'converting' anybody, but jimbres asked, so I responded. Everyone (even on an automotive forum!) is entitled to their opinion, respectfully stated.
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My late grandfather was in the Navy in WWII. My grandmother was a nurse taking care of the injured as well.
My grandfathers last 2 cars that he bought before his passing were Toyota Corollas. My grandmother no longer drives but she had a Camry before she went into the assisted living home.
uplander - that was a well thought out post. I get a lot more of where you are coming from. Thanks.
lemko - I don't want to think about what I'd own if was to support my local Ford plant. They closed in 1980. Here's teh first car rolling off the line in 1955.
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I know I've told this story before, but here goes...
Way back in 1990, I hadn't had my '57 DeSoto more than a month, I guess. One day, I drove my grandmother to the grocery store in it. When we got back to her house, I pulled up into the driveway, near the basement door. I happened to notice this old '63 Fury driving by, awfully slow. My first thought was that the guy was scoping out the house! I didn't even think of the car!
Well, an hour or so later, he drove past again, and pulled up into the driveway, introduced himself as a die-hard, Mopar or Nocar type of guy. Going on and on about how they're the best, and how he looks out for people in old Mopars, but how if he sees someone in a Japanese car broken down along the road, he'll laugh at 'em and say they got what they deserved!
How Mopar or Nocar was he? Well, when I bought my '67 Catalina, I mentioned it to him at a car show I had the DeSoto at, and he wouldn't talk to me for the rest of the day! Eventually, he must have changed his tune, because once I saw him getting out of a '69 full-size Chevy wagon. In fact, I almost ran over him, because he hopped out of it really quick and then walked right out in front of me without even looking...it was so close that he almost hit me!
Ran into him again a few years ago, at a local car show in Rockville, MD. We started talking about old cars, and I said I still had the DeSoto, and the Catalina. I asked him if he had any old Mopar still, and he said no...they kept breaking down too much, so now his whole family was driving Toyotas! :surprise: If that ain't karma, I don't know what is.
Understood, but I doubt that anyone old enough to have fought in WWII is still working today. If you were 17 in 1945 then you're 82 now - too old to be toiling away on an assembly line or even in the executive suite.
Anyone actually employed making cars in Germany or Japan today either wasn't alive in 1945 or was too young then to have picked up a rifle.
One of the posters in another Edmunds forum won't buy cars made in any country that's been at war with the U.S. but will buy - & has bought - cars from South Korea. His most recent purchase was a $40K Hyundai Genesis. Would you consider a South Korean car?
No doubt there's no one age 82 working in the Japanese or German auto industries now...unless they are a token older employee like you hear about every so often in American businesses. But these companies were part of their country's war efforts against us. This was only little more than a decade before I was born. For me, it's too soon. And that's not the only reason (others stated earlier). But hey, that's me. I'm traditional. Hell, I own two Studebakers!
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I forgot to answer the South Korean-built car question. No, I would not buy one...with the working class in this country what it is now, I see buying a domestic product as a little of 'doing my part'.
You know, I am considering a Malibu, although I like having no car payments now. I actually thought I'd look for a '10 model, LS, with the 4-speed automatic because it's made in America, unlike the 6-speed unit! I see the '11 models all have the 6-speed unit. Being a cheapskate, the 4-speed costs less too.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
One is a white '63 Lark Daytona "Skytop" with factory Avanti engine (non-supercharged). I've owned it 22 years and had it restored as a 'driver' about fifteen years ago. The second is a '64 Daytona Hardtop (not called 'Lark' in '64) that just has a little stock 259 2-barrel V8. This second one is dark blue. It was sold new in my little hometown and I remember seeing the car there as the original owner had it til 1990! Long story, but I bought it after seeing it on eBay in Wisconsin last year (where the original owner sold it back in '90). The original dealer is a good friend of mine and lives in Columbus, OH and clearly remembers the car and the customer.
The original owner of the '63 now lives in Phoenix and found me online where I had photos of the car and paperwork from the Studebaker Museum with his name on it (he picked the car up at the plant). He and his wife will be in MI in a few weeks and want to drive over here (three hours' trip) to see it and meet me! They owned it only 'til '65 when they traded on a full-size Plymouth wagon. The Lark was ordered to fulfill payment on remodeling work the original owner had done for his local Studebaker dealer!
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Comments
Isn't it true that violent crime is way down all over the US compared to 20, 30 years ago?
Perhaps not in Philly.
GM posted a net profit of $865 million,
And the IPO appears to be on track for selling stock and getting back part of the government's investment. I wouldn't be surprised if the government makes money on this investment, besides having saved many jobs and spared many people agony worse than the midwest states have born.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think it's down, but nowadays it gets publicized more. With 24/7 information getting thrown at us with the internet, satellite tv, et al, you can hear about the same murder hundreds of times over.
In an earlier period, we would have read about it in the newspaper a day after it happened and it wouldn't seem nearly as relevant to our lives as the TV made it seem.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
No, I certainly wouldn't say that all change is good. It would be closer to the truth to say that most change turns out to be good, in time, for most people. But someone's ox will be gored. You can count on that.
My take on history is that change is driven largely by technology. If a technological breakthrough makes it possible to do something, then someone will eventually figure out how to make money by doing it. Once the Wright brothers demonstrated heavier-than-air flight, it was pretty much inevitable that in time, you would pay through the nose for the privilege of flying coach, where you'd be wedged against the window by a fat, sweaty man in a cheap track suit while waiting for the flight attendant to hand you a box of stale cookies.
Go back to 1800. Back then, it took 6 weeks for the fastest sailing ship to travel from London to NY. Unlike today, information couldn't travel any faster. If gold prices were plunging on the London market, it would be at least 6 weeks before NY traders learned about it. Given these constraints, transatlantic trade was limited to a few high-profit items that could survive the long, uncertain trip: spices & expensive fabrics, for example, that only the wealthy could afford. (I'll leave the slave trade out of this discussion.) And even when these goods reached port, transporting them overland was a long, uncertain process. The best road in the U.S. in 1800 was one connecting NY & Boston. Even on that road, the trip took 3 days under the most favorable circumstances.
So it's not surprising that most Americans were largely self-sufficient, eating, wearing & using only what they could grow, sew or make. There was very little trade with the next county, let alone with distant countries.
Now jump forward to 1870 & you'll find an almost unrecognizably different world. Fast steamships make the trip between NY & London in comparative safety in less than a week. That overland trip to Boston now takes 4 or 5 hours by train. Most dramatically, information now moves across the Atlantic in minutes, thanks to the transatlantic telegraph cable, which was completed a few years earlier. So a NY merchant can cable his order to an English factory, get back a confirmation that same day & take delivery of his goods a few weeks later.
At this point, everything is in place to facilitate a trade explosion, & that's exactly what happened. Between the end of the Civil War & the beginning of the 1st World War, trade volumes skyrocketed. If you had a factory anywhere in the developed world, you could offer your goods to customers anywhere else in the developed world.
You could say, without exaggeration, that life for North Americans & Western Europeans changed more dramatically between 1800 & 1870 than it had during the 3,000 years leading up to 1800. Many - probably most - people saw big improvements in their living standards as a result. But more than a few people suffered. Urban populations made out much better than rural populations. Small towns bypassed by railroads turned into ghost towns. It's no wonder that the rail barons of the day were hated as much as bankers were - particularly by farmers, who needed the railroads to get their crops to market. (From the beginning, the Industrial Revolution has favored large, coastal cities over small towns like yours.)
The 2 World Wars & the intervening Great Depression sharply depressed world trade, which didn't bounce back until the 1960s. But it did, & here we are. And we're here, IMO, largely because of technological developments that took place a century or more before any of us was born. Outsourcing to Asia is simply the latest - & almost certainly not the last - step in a process that began more than 150 years ago. You can like it or hate it - I don't blame you for being unhappy about it - but you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.
And the IPO appears to be on track for selling stock and getting back part of the government's investment. I wouldn't be surprised if the government makes money on this investment, besides having saved many jobs and spared many people agony worse than the midwest states have born.
Is net profit the same as gross profit? I wonder if they are really making money?
I hope you are correct on the bailout and stock offering. That would be great. But I've seen analyst comments that GM would have to have stock valuation substantially higher than at its highest pricing during the peak sales years. Sounds difficult to me. But perhaps creative accounting by GM and the government can make it look that way. I know you trust Obama's comments that the taxpayers will get all of their money back.
Hilarious. Roll on the floor laugh your butt off hilarious. Who is going to pay that?
Toyota stock at the moment is hovering around 70 - 75 dollars a share. At it's peak, before the Japan witch hunt came on full force it peaked about 90 dollars a share. Toyota currently has the most expensive (by far) stock prices of all the automakers. Honda I believe is second and they are at around 30 - 35 bucks per share right now?
With all the investors that lost their shirts in BK, I find it very difficult to believe that there will be many of them clamoring back up to take a risk on the next wave of Government Motors history let alone pay more than a share worth of Toyota stock for the privilage... :sick:
Most of this movement took place during WWII, which created enormous pay differentials between farms & cities. When a farm worker accustomed to earning less than $50 per month could earn $100 (or more, depending on O/T) per week in a Ford plant that was building tanks for the Army, you didn't need a crystal ball to figure out what he would do.
By & large, these were landless farm laborers or sharecroppers, not farmers with equity in their land. For landowning farmers, the war was a mixed blessing. The government was ready to buy everything that they could grow, which kept prices up, but the draft & competition with war plants made labor scarcer & more expensive.
And yes, farm jobs for people who don't own land but who want to live in rural areas have largely disappeared. (My mother's family still has a few farmers.) These jobs have been automated out of existence over the past 50 years.
And it was relatively resilient during the market downturn. I think it bottomed around $58-60 per share in late '08. I bailed out in Jan'10, at $81.13/share, at a slight profit of about 4%. And, it usually paid a 3-4% dividend (based on what I paid for my shares, obviously the advertised dividend went down once the share prices went up). So, while it wasn't exactly a big money maker, at least I got out with the shirt on my back.
I think Ford stock is only around $12-13 right now?
As I've pointed out several times before, violent crime rates in NY are at 45+ year lows. Sounds to me as if your city is mismanaged & badly policed. Don't mistake local incompetence for a national trend.
I was born in Philly. Thankfully, we moved out when I was 4.
BTW, no one has demonstrated a link between violent crime & unemployment. At worst, high unemployment might lead to an increase in petty crime, like shoplifting. But murder, armed robbery & the like? Nope.
Time for a new theory.
Government money is government money"
I'm sorry, but I guess I don't understand the premise of your position. It appears either you don't fully understand the global business environment, or you feel your principles are more important than the good of the country?
You do understand that the Export Import Bank charges interest on these loans and makes money? You do understand that not having this financing source in the US will put it at a disadvantage to most other countries that have similar, or even greater such programs when selling overseas?
I guess you'll be in a bit of a jam then because many, many US firms utilize this financing service so you won't be buying many US products. Forget flying on Boeing jetliners as well since they are a major user of EX/IM. That's OK, you can just buy foreign products instead. Oh wait a minute, many of them have taken advantage of government incentives to put plants in the US, so you'll want to make sure that you only buy things made elsewhere.
As an American, I find that just sad! Like it or not, the world will continue to get even more global in the future. If America fails to compete, we fail as well. Hopefully you are not just mislabeling Ford because you don't like the company.
You have to be careful comparing company stock prices because the share price by itself doesn't mean a lot. It is impacted by revenue and profitability, but also by the number of share issued. Two identical companies can have different prices because they issued different numbers of shares.
It had so much going for it, and now it doesn't...which to me is sad. It's the plight of small, older towns around the nation, that don't happen to be right next to an interstate. Mine was a railroad town, but that's gone now. Until 1970 one could get on a train three times daily, west to Chicago, and three times daily, east to NYC. We had good schools, best in the county, and a good, established, small liberal arts college there (still there). We had a good and large (for the size of the town) local hospital. Now, you can't even give birth at that hospital...you have to go to one 20-25 miles away.
As far as I'm concerned, NAFTA is one of the worst things that ever happened in that the main plant in town closed and moved to Mexico shortly after that.
Except for VietNam (admittedly, a huge thing!), and women's and racial issues (the latter two I don't believe were issues where I grew up 30-40 years ago), I sure think that OVERALL, life was better then. Cars were more interesting, and resales held up better so a working stiff could, and wanted to, buy a new one every three years. I make a very comfortable income but even I won't do that now. And, I drive too many miles to lease. Does anybody remember how exciting it was when the new models came out in the fall? It was like a party at the dealership...donuts and cider and everybody you knew was there. Planned obsolescence? Bring it on!
I know you can't go back, but we've gone backwards in so many areas instead of forwards. Off my soapbox now.
I think most of this movement happened in the '20's and '30's...at least in NE OH where I live now. Remember, most every man was in the service during WWII and women were working in factories because of a shortage of manpower.
I can hear the guffaws now, but I bought a new Cobalt in May of 2008. I live 30 miles from Lordstown where they are built, and people in the town I live in now, and also the town I grew up in, 30 miles on the other side of Lordstown, work there and Iike that feeling of 'contributing' even if in a small way, to the livelihood of my area.
But...I think people who will knock a Cobalt have never ridden in one! I ride to Harrisburg, PA every other week with a guy who has a 2005 Civic and also a 2009 Matrix. My Cobalt is absolutely quieter on the road (far less road noise) than either of his cars. But you won't read that anyplace I'm afraid. Even a third coworker, who's diehard Ford, offered that assessment to me without me bringing it up first.
I have an XFE, 4-door, a/c, 5-speed, satellite radio, ABS, side moldings and floor mats. That's it. It was $11.9K before my $2K GM Card rebate. I didn't finance the car and I never buy an extended warranty. With 37K miles on it now, I can still hardly believe that I paid under $10K for that car. And no, it wasn't because it was sitting around for months on a dealer lot. My dealer in NE OH went to Indianapolis to get it, since I wanted a strippo with ABS and four doors, and the dealer in Indy only had it eight days...I saw the invoice.
I do see that even the basest of the base will have things like power windows and AC. I had an Accent rental - a 2010 model - that had crank windows.
Let me guess - Enterprise?
I've never driven nor ridden in a Cobalt; my only experience with them is sitting in them at auto shows. And it did something that no other car in its class is capable of...it fit me comfortably! I swear, the driving position isn't all that different from my 2000 Park Ave, my grandma's old '85 LeSabre, or my '76 Lemans. The seat goes back far enough for me (to be fair, I can actually get the LeMans into some obscene positions that are actually TOO far back for me), and the seat is high enough and far back enough that it doesn't leave my thighs hanging. The steering wheel is in a good position for me. And the door panel doesn't feel jammed up against me.
Now, once I get that seat where I want it, the back seat is horrible. But, I'd rather sacrifice the back seat for driver comfort.
The interior has a lot of hard plastic, but I think it's still presentable for this price class.
I find it a bit amusing that most people complain about how uncomfortable the Cobalt is, but it's the only car in the class that I feel comfortable in! With one exception...the 2000-2005 Neon. Those cars seemed like the poster child for everything that's wrong with the domestic small car, but they seemed to fit me perfectly. And, with the front seat all the way back, I could still get in the back comfortably.
It doesn't surprise me, actually, that the Cobalt is quieter than the other cars. I've heard that's one thing GM is actually pretty good at...silence and isolation. They also tend to make their cars feel like they're bigger than they really are. I've heard that about the Cobalt and HHR, and experienced it first-hand with the downsized FWD C and H (and G) cars. I remember driving my grandmother's cousin's '89 Coupe DeVille once, and thinking that it was so bulky and cumbersome feeling, what was the point in downsizing them then? And my 2000 Park Ave feels bulkier than it is. I swear my '79 5th Ave feels more nimble!
Most small car enthusiasts don't like big cars, so that might be why they rag on the Cobalt, because it has more of a big car feel? Still, there's a market that prefers the comfort and silence, so it's not all bad.
What kind of fuel economy do you get with your Cobalt when you take those trips to H-burg?
The sticker of my Cobalt was $15,465. I bought it for invoice ($14.9K) less the $3K rebate, less my $2K GM card earnings. I know MSRP has gone up since '08 and now you have to pay $100 for a spare tire (ridiculous)!
I'm interested in seeing the Cruze, and I'm glad it's built at Lordstown. My understanding is that just because the Cruze replaces the Cobalt, the plant that built the Cobalt didn't automatically get to build the Cruze. They (GM) constantly look at quality ratings and other things and the plant had to bid on building the Cruze.
Taking government money is taking government money. Which part of gov ern ment is giving difficulty. I just heard a radio story this morning about a $22,000,000 chunk that's given to American companies. However, this is to train SE Asia workers to serve as IT phone center call takers. Government money is subsidizing sending more US potential jobs out of the country. But that must be part of your definition of globalization and that's good in your book--as long as the jobs leave the US?
http://www.informationweek.com/news/software/integration/showArticle.jhtml?artic- leID=226500202
Despite President Obama's pledge to retain more hi-tech jobs in the U.S., a federal agency run by a hand-picked Obama appointee has launched a $36 million program to train workers, including 3,000 specialists in IT and related functions, in South Asia.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
How about how the average working person could afford a decent house without being in hock up to his eyeballs? How about how Dad could go to work and Mom could stay home and take care of the house and kids and could work if she chose to rather than needed to? How about almost nobody being in credit card debt? My parents were people of modest means, but I never remember being hungry. We could always take a nice vacation. Dad could buy a new Ford every couple years and either pay cash or finance it for no more than two or three years. We always had nice furniture and stuff. Dad only had a high school diploma and a short stint in the Navy under his belt and was able to raise three kids. I wouldn't dare try the same thing today. I'd be living in abject poverty.
Isee they have continued the "optional" spare tire concept. $100 for a donut! Crazy.
Let me try to explain the EX-IM Bank process to you. EX-IM helps arrange a private loan from another bank, etc. and then guarantees the loan. That guarantee usually lowers the interest rate because lender risk is reduced. It usually gets a piece of the interest or servicing fee for this. Government money only comes into it if the borrower defaults (in most all cases the government actually makes money from these deals). If you still insist Ford should be called Federal Motors for doing this, and what many US companies also do, then I guess you are just prejudiced against D3 and looking for a reason to slam them, and I'll just consider your future blogs related to D3 as biased in nature.
"I just heard a radio story this morning "
If you want to discuss business and economics you might be better off reading professional publications so you understand all of the aspects and perspectives involved in the issues, rather than relying on media sound bites. A lot of left and right wing pundits make a lot of money taking pieces out of context and firing up their listeners/viewers. By the way, deals must be to our country's advantage before EX-IM will guarantee a loan. There could only be some offshoring involved if there is far greater overall advantage to us. The world ain't flat and most large business deals around the globe are not one way. Unfortunately, in most deals some aspects end up winners while other aspects are on the short end. It's been that way throughout history.
" But that must be part of your definition of globalization and that's good in your book--as long as the jobs leave the US?"
That doesn't even make sense. In fact, all of D3 have recently brought more work in house and added US jobs. Honestly, you lose credibility with these kind of statements and conclusions. It makes it sound like you're grasping for something.
As for IT servicing and customer service, I understand your frustration if you work in those fields. However, some companies are also pulling some of that work back home. The software development aspect of the IT business is largely an American business and a large source of US exports. The only very large and successful foreign firm in that area I know is SAP which I believe is German.
"Despite President Obama's pledge"
Why do people always want to slam the president on everything? Like the president is actually involved at these micro levels. Before Obama it was always George Bush's fault. I guess blame is an easy way to get things off our shoulders. Whether I personally agree or not with their positions, I truly believe both of them are loyal Americans who want what is best for the country. You need to understand that the president does not have the power of a dictator to force everything to happen a certain way, people don't always agree on the problem or solution, and overall that's really a good thing.
A couple of people suggested the Cobalt SS when I was looking at hot compacts back in 2007. Problem was, no hatchback and it had a five speed rather than a six speed manual. No matter how good the Cruze may be I won't consider it; the MS3 is my first and last FWD car.
I shudder to think what I'd be driving if I felt the need to "support" my local Ford plants- either an F-150 of an Exploder.
Yuk!!!.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
When you're shopping for a new car, do you use country of origin as a filter? In other words, do you look only at American cars when you're shopping? Or is it purely coincidental that all of the cars that you like happen to be American brands? For example, you really dig Buicks & you'd buy one even if it was made in, say, Sweden.
Suppose you fell in love with a non-American car. Would you refrain from buying it because its nationality was wrong? Or would you find a way to rationalize the purchase?
I usually think the styling of foreign nameplates is kind of 'alien' (no pun intended) and somewhat of a turn-off to me, but I admit I'm a traditionalist.
I've often waited for the 'ephiphany' I'm supposed to get when driving one, after getting out of one of my domestics, but it as of yet hasn't happened.
Some foreign cars I've thought were nicely styled: The second Maxima ('90's, with one wall-to-wall taillight in back); the Altima of six or so years ago (the one with factory 'tuner' taillights with chrome trim in them); the Sonata of a couple years ago, with a Ford Escort-like cut of the tops of the doors; the smaller Jags of seven or eight years ago.
I wouldn't consider them mostly because I want to buy domestic, but also because none of them had the dealer network of Chevrolet...at least until last year (sigh). My wonderful local dealer a mile away closed last year in the 'restructuring'. Luckily, most of the Service Dept. guys went to another dealer six or so miles away, but it's a drive in stop-and-go traffic to get there. I have often read that foreign-nameplate dealers have lower customer satisfaction ratings, in the sales and service areas, than the domestics in the past few years...more of a 'take it or leave it' attitude. I don't need that, although I realize each dealer is different.
There's my answer. I realize I open myself up to ridicule for saying this, but being from a family with many military members in the past, I think WWII hasn't been long enough away for me to forget the atrocities of Japan and Germany too. There are thousands on both sides, ours and 'theirs', that were alive then and know what that was all about. Maybe in twenty-five years, when nobody will be alive on other side who had anything to do with what went on then, I'll think again. Who knows.
My dad served in the AAC in WW II while a cousin on my mom's side flew with the Luftwaffe(in a Fw 190 -with a BMW 801 engine- WOOT!!!).
So I have a Wrangler and the BMWs. Japan was a member of the Axis and Britain was one of our allies- so methinks that the Mazda and the Triumph even everything out.
Simple!!!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
So... then does bother you that terrorists from the middle east attacked New York and killed 3000 Americans enough to put that middle eastern oil into the tank?
If you're driving your vehicles more than "foot power" will let you than I guess it doesn't...
I'm not promoting my ideas in the hope of 'converting' anybody, but jimbres asked, so I responded. Everyone (even on an automotive forum!) is entitled to their opinion, respectfully stated.
My late grandfather was in the Navy in WWII. My grandmother was a nurse taking care of the injured as well.
My grandfathers last 2 cars that he bought before his passing were Toyota Corollas. My grandmother no longer drives but she had a Camry before she went into the assisted living home.
Mine, too! My mom was a Wave.
uplander - that was a well thought out post. I get a lot more of where you are coming from. Thanks.
lemko - I don't want to think about what I'd own if was to support my local Ford plant. They closed in 1980. Here's teh first car rolling off the line in 1955.
Way back in 1990, I hadn't had my '57 DeSoto more than a month, I guess. One day, I drove my grandmother to the grocery store in it. When we got back to her house, I pulled up into the driveway, near the basement door. I happened to notice this old '63 Fury driving by, awfully slow. My first thought was that the guy was scoping out the house! I didn't even think of the car!
Well, an hour or so later, he drove past again, and pulled up into the driveway, introduced himself as a die-hard, Mopar or Nocar type of guy. Going on and on about how they're the best, and how he looks out for people in old Mopars, but how if he sees someone in a Japanese car broken down along the road, he'll laugh at 'em and say they got what they deserved!
How Mopar or Nocar was he? Well, when I bought my '67 Catalina, I mentioned it to him at a car show I had the DeSoto at, and he wouldn't talk to me for the rest of the day! Eventually, he must have changed his tune, because once I saw him getting out of a '69 full-size Chevy wagon. In fact, I almost ran over him, because he hopped out of it really quick and then walked right out in front of me without even looking...it was so close that he almost hit me!
Ran into him again a few years ago, at a local car show in Rockville, MD. We started talking about old cars, and I said I still had the DeSoto, and the Catalina. I asked him if he had any old Mopar still, and he said no...they kept breaking down too much, so now his whole family was driving Toyotas! :surprise: If that ain't karma, I don't know what is.
Anyone actually employed making cars in Germany or Japan today either wasn't alive in 1945 or was too young then to have picked up a rifle.
One of the posters in another Edmunds forum won't buy cars made in any country that's been at war with the U.S. but will buy - & has bought - cars from South Korea. His most recent purchase was a $40K Hyundai Genesis. Would you consider a South Korean car?
You know, I am considering a Malibu, although I like having no car payments now. I actually thought I'd look for a '10 model, LS, with the 4-speed automatic because it's made in America, unlike the 6-speed unit! I see the '11 models all have the 6-speed unit. Being a cheapskate, the 4-speed costs less too.
The original owner of the '63 now lives in Phoenix and found me online where I had photos of the car and paperwork from the Studebaker Museum with his name on it (he picked the car up at the plant). He and his wife will be in MI in a few weeks and want to drive over here (three hours' trip) to see it and meet me! They owned it only 'til '65 when they traded on a full-size Plymouth wagon. The Lark was ordered to fulfill payment on remodeling work the original owner had done for his local Studebaker dealer!