Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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Comments

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I always keep in mind where my money goes when buying products. I will spend hours in a store looking for U.S. manufactured good or leave empty-handed due to the lack of them. Pretty soon, I'm going to have to do all my shopping at antique marts.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Know where I can find an outdoor thermometer made in the U.S? All I can find at Lowe's is cheap Chinese garbage that won't survive one season let alone 20 years.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I dunno. I've been buying GM products for over 25 years and that led to a big smile on my face - ear to ear, baby!
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Lemko, take a look at this site.
    http://www.thermometersoutdoor.com/
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Thanx! ;)
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I like those thermometers.

    As we were clearing out the folks house recently I had my eye on this big ol' thermometer that we had hanging on a tree for years. Thought I;d go put in on one of the trees in our back yard. Forget it! The tree has grown completely around the screw and the hanger. It's in there to stay.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    You could call a tree surgeon to cut the thermometer out, but the question arises...will the doctor's fee by covered by Obamacare?
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I hope the entire door hardware business hasn't been offshored yet - I bet if you go to a hardware store in Britain or Germany you can find first world products...

    I'm in that industry. You will find first world products in the US as well as Europe as long as you are willing to pay for them. Low to mid grade product sold in the US and Europe is all Chinese/India made.

    Now keep in mind, the Chinese will build whatever level of quality the marketeer asks for. If they ask for junk - they'll build junk. If they ask for high end - they'll build high end.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,963
    should enter the outdoor thermometer business, because their stock is plummeting! The gov't will lose BILLIONS if they sell those shares now!
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,543
    Do any high end Chindian products make to NA?

    In the retail stores I have been to in Europe, just as an anecdote, I have noticed much less piled on Chinese junk than here.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Do any high end Chindian products make to NA?

    Yes. I won't name specific brands in my industry, but there are many mid to high end products sourced from China. The difference is that those brands have set the quality standards pretty high, have representatives on site to ensure quality and patent protection and typically have exclusive rights to the factory.

    Low end product is often made for multiple marketeers and price is the important target and the quality is acceptable for what it is.

    In the retail stores I have been to in Europe, just as an anecdote, I have noticed much less piled on Chinese junk than here.

    That's because the EU doesn't require country of origin to be stated on imported goods other than food.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,543
    What kind of products then, if the brand is some kind of state secret?

    You know that the US doesn't require country of origin to be on many products, including food, right? Go buy a new toothbrush and try to find where it was actually made. I remember looking around and seeing French and German made household appliances, cutlery and dishware, generic household goods - all of which would usually be Chinese made here.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2011
    Many of us like to be a bit "generic" on the forums. If someone wants to talk about where they live and work or what products they work with for a living, that's one thing. Ir they don't that's fine too.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,543
    If it's a secret then it shouldn't be used as a rebuttal ;)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Nope, that's not the way it works here.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    edited June 2011
    What kind of products then, if the brand is some kind of state secret?

    Yeesh - why the hate!!?? What was I rebutting? I was just answering your question about high end products made in China. As for the industy, I thought you would've figured it out from my earlier post about high end decorative hardware and plumbing.

    You know that the US doesn't require country of origin to be on many products, including food, right? Go buy a new toothbrush and try to find where it was actually made.

    I don't know about food products - wasn't even thinking of that. My point was about the fact that the EU doesn't require COO labeling hance that is probably why you didn't see many made in China labels. Many products in the EU do state "et en EU" and that's pretty much for marketing purposes. In the US, I do know that if an item can't be marked (like fresh meat), it doesn't have to be.

    Here is a guideline:

    http://www.itintl.com/10-country-of-origin-marking-procedures-to-avoid-seizure-b- - y-us-customs.html

    As for the toothbrush, if it doesn't say where it's made then most likely it was made in the United States.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,701
    Just for curiosity I checked out stock of probably 15 toothbrushes in the bathroom cabinet.

    Reach, made in Deutschland.
    Colgate blisterpak from dentist, China
    Plastic cellophane pack Colgate, USA
    Another brush, USA.

    I think I'll start checking the box when I pick up toothbrushes on the store shelves for country of origin.

    Most of ours are from dentist for three of us and an orthodontist.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    ...means ANYTHING but GM. :P

    China is the biggest market in the world for Buick -- General Motors has for some time sold more Buicks there that in the U.S. -- and now Shanghai GM says sales of Buicks have passed 3 million units since it began selling them in 1999.

    Buick's China sales are accelerating: 1,033,307 of that 3 million came in 2010. Shanghai GM is a joint venture of GM and Shanghai Automotive Industry Corp. (SAIC) that builds, imports and sells Buicks, Cadillacs and Chevrolets.

    As a result of the market's importance, China actually has gotten Buick models and technology before the U.S. sees them.

    That may be smart by GM: A February Gallup poll found that even in American, more people rate China as the world's top economic power than pick the USA.

    Regards,
    OW
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    edited June 2011
    ... the first is simple resource extraction, the second a product of a treacherous and irresponsible executive class.

    I don't disagree that there's a lot of criminality among executives.

    But say you are one of the honest ones. You are given a high-paying job, and your job is to care for the health of the corporation and maximize profitability. You might be getting say, $5M/year to do this. You really like your income and you really want to do a good job. And you answer to the Board of D's.

    So you look at the finances and things are going pretty well. But you notice that by moving some amount of production from your high-priced area in the U.S. (ESPECIALLY if you are a unionized shop, which means your salaries and benes and pensions are probably astronomically expensive), you can save a LOT of money. Money that makes the company more profitable, allows the company more financial flexibility. Which is your job to make happen. And in some other location you a) May be able to get non-union workers, even in the U.S., saving up to 50% on labor costs (and also no risk of very expensive strikes).

    If you can move production overseas to the right tax-advantaged location, let's say your company makes currently $25B/year in revenue, and $2B in profit. And let's say that your current tax rate is 30% in the U.S., and in some other location (Ireland, Singapore, even Puerto Rico), you can pay only a 15% tax rate. So you are going to increase your profits by $300M/year! And that is even if the cost of labor is the SAME in the new location!

    So your choices are:

    a) move production, gain $300M in annual profit. And get a big bonus due to your excellent performance.
    b) don't move production, survive until the Board wises up that you are not performing very well, and you get fired.
    c) Quit, because you don't like the way our capitalistic businesses and tax systems are in the world -- this is not the job for you!

    That's kind of the situation. And I haven't even discussed cheaper overseas labor. For a lot of products, that may not even be the big savings item.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Pretty soon, I'm going to have to do all my shopping at antique marts.

    Pretty soon, you will have to buy Honda/Toyota/VW/BMW/Mercedes/Kia/Hyundai if you want a US made vehicle, or Ford/GM/C if you want a foreign-made vehicle!

    Thank the UAW for that.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Do any high end Chindian products make to NA?

    iPods, iPads, iPhones, Macs. :shades:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,062
    Do any high end Chindian products make to NA?

    iPods, iPads, iPhones, Macs.


    I can proudly say that my Levi's 501's don't come from Chindia. They came from Egypt! :surprise: Hey, isnt' Egyptian cotton supposed to be better, or something ilke that? :P The shirt I wore today came from Cambodia. I didn't buy it; it was a Christmas gift I think.

    Oh, and the other day, I was adding some coolant to my '85 Silverado, and I noticed that the radiator hose had "Made in Canada" on the label. Well, okay, that's *almost* America. ;)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2011
    Lenovo/Thinkpad too.

    All of these examples weren't "pure" Chinese, although Lenovo was big into computers before they purchased IBM's laptop business.

    But there's Haier, and it's made a lot of international inroads in appliance sales.

    And who would have guessed that Samsung, LG, and Hyundai would have been household names a generation ago? Or any Japanese brand a few generations before the Koreans.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,543
    edited June 2011
    Got it, so I can just make random claims. This could be good training for being a congressman or lobbyist :P
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,543
    edited June 2011
    No hate, just honest curiosity. Nobody is saying anything here that can get themselves stalked or fired. Let's be real. I don't see these high quality Chindian products in my daily life, that's all.

    Wally World alone is the 8th largest consumer of Chinese junk on the planet. Where do you think it goes? I don't see huge piles of that often poisoned and shoddy stuff as much as I do here. I know housing quality is MUCH higher in Europe than here - no Chinese drywall there. I've inspected items in the hotels, restaurants, private homes, and stores I have been in, and the invasion is not nearly as marked - as they simply have not offshored their production as we have.

    If it was made in the USA, it would say made in the USA - marketers know that claim has value to a growing and often intelligent minority.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,543
    Those aren't Chindian products, those are items innovated in the west and built in slave labor areas so the rapidly consolidating wealth of the top few can consolidate even more.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,543
    edited June 2011
    Given a job...yes, you are correct in how it works for the average high level exec...

    I see no proof that taxes are the issue. It is labor costs and related regulations, which explains why Chindia has so much environmental shame and so much social injustice.

    For the rest, just a fun story. You don't have to lecture me like I am a child, I know how our treacherous and often should be tried and sentenced (to a lot) corporate leadership operates. Still haven't got the name of a secret tax haven either.

    It's not really capitalism, it is betrayal, greed, cowardice, and dishonesty. The old timey embracers of capitalism did not envision this devolution. It is not survival of the best. It is not progress.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    ....You don't have to lecture me like I am a child...

    Sheesh. We're just having fun posting here. I didn't realize anything I wrote came across that way. There's no hostility here, you can't always pick up tone from written postings. Just trying to make a point.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    They are concentrating on sales to Asia. Why does that make protecting USA GM sales the American Way to Go?

    Not going to happen. Go Kia! :)

    Regards,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Made in the U.S.A. is an extreme enticement for me to buy one product over the other - even if one is a well-known brand versus an unknown brand.
  • halsworthyhalsworthy Member Posts: 12
    There has to be a better balance. You should be able to protect your home!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2011
    Some of the home defense posts have been moved to OTC.

    To get your minds back on American Iron that moves down the road, here's the latest tech from Buick.

    image

    Buick's First Hybrid Priced at $30,820 (Straightline)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,543
    Did the hydramatic name just come back or was it always hanging around Buick?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,543
    Yes, I know the point, I know how it works. We're committing slow but certain suicide in the name of "globalization" and "free trade". You can't say you believe they past generation or so of socio-economic trends is going to either make a better future, or be able to continue forever without some serious strife.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,543
    I'll certainly choose it over imports from slave labor areas. As Made in USA is sometimes impossible, I will choose made in the first world above others.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Likewise. If I can't find it made here, I'll buy something that was at least made in a first-world country. I can't wait for the day the Chinese and other sweatshop laborers across the globe demand to stop being treated like slaves and demand first-world pay and working conditions. In your face, globalist elitist scum! Where now will you scumbags outsource? Mars?
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    You are looking for third world labor on Mars? That makes me very angry....

    image
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,543
    Eventually, the game will be up. China can only last so long as a source for glorified slave labor, most of Africa will never be stable enough to establish a sweatshop empire...where can the traitors go?
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    No hate, just honest curiosity. Nobody is saying anything here that can get themselves stalked or fired.

    Well you came across a little strong. I'd rather not name brands here period.

    Wally World alone is the 8th largest consumer of Chinese junk on the planet.

    I know that and that is one of the reasons I don't shop at Wal-Mart. They alone could be responsible for a measureable percentage of the loss of wealth in our nation as they have driven profitability down.

    I know housing quality is MUCH higher in Europe than here

    It's because housing is typically a one time purchase for Europeans. My company used to sell a high end German line. We asked for them to offer a lifetime warranty for the US. They were aghast - "we cannot afford to do that. What if someone comes back in 30 years and needs a part?" We told them not to worry - the typical American moves every 7 years and that is how long they'd have to concern themselves with it.

    I've inspected items in the hotels, restaurants, private homes, and stores I have been in, and the invasion is not nearly as marked - as they simply have not offshored their production as we have

    Keep in mind that items don't have to have the country of origin marked on them in the EU so you really don't know where they are from unless they are marked. Are you seeing all Et En EU labels or just the lack of Et en Chine labels?

    If you were to go into any IKEA, B&Q, Castorama, Brico Depot, Screwfix, Decathlon et al in Europe, you'll see hundreds of non EU goods.

    If it was made in the USA, it would say made in the USA - marketers know that claim has value to a growing and often intelligent minority.

    Perhaps it isn't worth it on a toothbrush but on a high cost, high tech item it would make a diference to some. Much in the same way that made in Germany or Japan would to others - even here in the US.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Eventually, the game will be up. China can only last so long as a source for glorified slave labor, most of Africa will never be stable enough to establish a sweatshop empire...where can the traitors go?

    Too late. Many Chinese contract manufacturers have already moved to Vietnam, Cambodia and now Africa in search of cheaper labor:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/04/china-manufacturing-factories-africa-

    Fintail - I think you and I are on the same page on many things. Personally I have no issue with globablization of production. If these new economies can grow in the same way the American economy did starting in the late 1800's, perhaps someday we'll have equal standards of living around the world.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,543
    That's an article from 2009, though - how is it going now.. China isn't going to be able to stop the social turmoil that is bound to spring up there unless it slaughters thousands - which it certainly has the ability to do and will have no shame in doing - and nobody in the world will issue any kind of reprimand. Africa has some massive problems which will IMO never be solved. Huge risk. And I do have a problem when corporations betray the nations and people who enabled them to exist in the first place.

    That equal standard which the globalists wish for will mostly resemble China now - a vast mass of peasants with nothing and no hopes of ever having anything, lives completely dominated by the sweatshop industry, and a well connected top few who owe their success to political ties and towing the party line. Race to the bottom, nothing more.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,543
    edited June 2011
    Nah don't worry, I never asked for any brands, simply the type of goods. Toilets (ok, bad example), light switches, kitchen flooring, windows - its a huge world.

    A massive amount of Americans don't own a home - same for Europeans. Even in apartments, the standard of finishes and materials is much higher from what I have seen. No Chinese drywall and fall-apart plywood and cardboard construction there. It's a focus on the longer term life of a product rather than simple cost. The American business model doesn't think of the future whether it be in cars or consumer goods.

    Virtually all of the cutlery and household appliances I examined in Europe were made there, mostly in France or Germany. Do the same here and see what you find. Of course some Chinese trinket crap is dumped there, but on a per capita basis I will wager it is far less than here - as on the same basis their corporate overlords have yet to betray their countrymen as they have done here.

    I don't want to put anything made in China in my mouth every morning, sorry. If origin isn't mentioned, some corporate cowards are just trying to hide the truth. If it is positive it will be stated clearly, if not...either blank or the packaging person will just hope the average dumbed down consumercitizen doesn't care.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited June 2011
    It's a focus on the longer term life of a product rather than simple cost. The American business model doesn't think of the future whether it be in cars or consumer goods.


    That's not necessarily the corporations fault. I used to have a neighbor that built houses. The houses he built tended to be expensive for their size. He used high efficiency HVAC, high quality low E windows, nicer fixtures, and used seasoned help etc and guess what. He had a hell of a time selling the houses he built. Why, people would complain it was to expensive for the size. They'd often take the bigger, cheaper built house.

    I have no doubt if a company could make more money selling a higher priced, higher quality model, they would. Well actually, their are many companies that do (just not Walmart or any other mainstream retailer) People tend to skip the good stuff and buy the cheap crap.

    A few years ago we bought an Italian made leather sofa. It cost more than any 3 piece furniture set we'd ever bought previously. But man is it nice. Exceptionally well built and comfortable. But I don't think many people spend over $3k for a sofa. the 3 pieces for $999 made in China will always sell better.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,543
    But is it? Which forces are running up the ever declining real incomes and ever increasing costs of living?

    Cheap houses are an American epidemic and have been for a few decades. I doubt it exists so much in any other first world nation.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited June 2011
    But is it? Which forces are running up the ever declining real incomes and ever increasing costs of living?

    Well that's certainly open for debate. But most of this crap isn't essential. Go to Best Buy or any retailer and no matter what you want, it's only a credit app away from being yours. Even people with high incomes still buy the cheapest available. If people really cared where their Ipod was made, they wouldn't buy it regardless of whether their wages are small, flat, or huge.

    Just like our government, many have a spending problem.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Excellent post. It's all about spending past your means.

    It is impossible to buy only American anymore. It seems some are fighting the Tsunami of change yet again. I agree you can make it an time-encompassing hobby if one desires, however.

    Regards,
    OW
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,543
    edited June 2011
    Not essential, but the corporate controlled media can brainwash an awful lot of people into thinking it is.

    The only question is whether we will become China or Mexico...
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    You can't say you believe they past generation or so of socio-economic trends is going to either make a better future, or be able to continue forever without some serious strife.

    I'll agree with that. But the demographics of the world mean with a rapidly growing population, seeing a rich country (us) -- well they want that, too. And we certainly want to EXPORT our stuff so our companies can get rich. So Boeing makes planes, and Hollywood makes movies and music. But if we wall off our garden, we set up trade wars. If we refuse to import cheaper or better stuff, we live with mediocrity. I wonder what it was like in east Germany driving Ladas when west German had Mercedes and BMW? I'm not so sure that I'd want the US to continue driving 1970's era GMs and Fords, with high paid UAW jobs, and import quotas and tarrifs so high that there would be no incentive for Ford or GM to improve anything. I doubt F and GM would have anywhere near as good of vehicles today without the competition that came from overseas. And certainly there is a LOT of the prosperity that does exist in this country that is due to our ability to EXPORT. I just don't see how we can believe that we should export Boeing planes, but then that ability to rapidly move goods should be shut off because we don't want no stinkin' competition. We want our cake and eat it too. Export and reap the inputs, but don't import! And one of the reasons those overseas have enough money to buy Boeing planes and Apple products is that they are making money selling us their exports!

    With the advent of communications and transportation, I just don't see it as very realistic that the old ways were going to continue, no mater what policies were enacted.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,543
    edited June 2011
    There's always a "but" for the tax haven loving globalist...

    If they want it, they can get it themselves - no reason we should commit suicide (which is what we are in fact doing!) to enable them to move up a step.

    How does offshoring so much of our manufacturing and industry ward against mediocrity?

    You claim that these exports are somehow more valuable that what we have lost, have you quantified this?

    Now instead of overpaid UAW jobs we get the overpaid public sector and the sickeningly overpaid executive class. Wow, that's a lot better. :sick:

    Why should we lower ourselves to the playing field of perpetual social and environmental criminals? Why should free trade be a one way street? Should our ignorant citizenry cry about what they see as "socialism" while patronizing material from brands and nations that are dependent on socialist ideals to survive and advance?

    We're going to become Mexico or Russia at best. What a great future.

    Race to the bottom.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Lots of questions there.

    I assume you see an approach that we are not taking to keep our standard of living up? I'm curious what that is. What is plan B? How do we save ourselves from this globalization problem?
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