Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

berri

If it's got a 59 Impala convertible, it's OK by me :shades:

gagrice

It's too bad we don't see more Focuses and Cruzes exported.

I don't think it is practical with UAW labor building them in the USA.

The Focus is only 40% US content. The Cruze is 56% US Content.

In the case of the BMW X3, X5 & X6 they are only 20-25% US content. With final assembly in the USA.

bpizzuti

Yeah, but both are supposed to be "world" cars, which should theoretically mean they could be built anywhere and sent anywhere. Of course, both companies still have quite a bit of overcapacity compared to sales.

robr2

Yeah, but both are supposed to be "world" cars, which should theoretically mean they could be built anywhere and sent anywhere.

Both are definitely world cars - they are made and sold all over the world:

The Focus is made in Germany, Russia, US, Thailand and China.

The Cruze is made in Australia, Brazil, China, India, Kazakhstan, Russia, Vietnam, Korea, Thailand and the US.

Toss in
Malibu: US, South Korea, China, Uzbekistan
Escape/Kuga: US, Germany, Spain
Fusion, Mondeo: US, Belgium (although the latter is closing)

The reason that BMW exports so much of the US based production is because they don't have factories elsewhere to make those crossovers and the value of the US dollar. Believe me, if they could make them cheaper in their markets (Europe) they would.

bpizzuti

The reason that BMW exports so much of the US based production is because they don't have factories elsewhere to make those crossovers and the value of the US dollar. Believe me, if they could make them cheaper in their markets (Europe) they would.

And yet GM and Ford seem to be making their cars cheaper in Europe. What's wrong with this picture? :shades:

gagrice

The reason that BMW exports so much of the US based production is because they don't have factories elsewhere to make those crossovers and the value of the US dollar. Believe me, if they could make them cheaper in their markets (Europe) they would.


Probably the same reason MB builds the ML, R & GL in the USA.

uplanderguy

Suede interior in a Malibu is a 2LT. I think (unscientifically) those were the rarest models of that generation.

The 2LT V6 had the neatest wheels, but I think I've seen like two of them.

The 2LT 4-cylinder had mirror-finish wheels, which I liked way less than the dark, polished wheels on the cheaper 1LT that we have.

I like the feel of the suede inserts myself, although ours doesn't have them.

ateixeira

It's life or death for GM, these must succeed, no Plan B:

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2012/12/the-all-new-2014-gmc-sierra-1500-revealed.h- tml

gagrice

Will they still get lousy 15-16 MPG combined? I kind of like the looks of them. With a V6 Diesel they would be a good choice and leapfrog the competition.

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/12/13/2014-chevrolet-silverado-and-gmc-sierr- a-revealed/

busiris

The reason that BMW exports so much of the US based production is because they don't have factories elsewhere to make those crossovers and the value of the US dollar. Believe me, if they could make them cheaper in their markets (Europe) they would.

I'm not sure, but I believe NA (primarily USA) is the single largest market for BMW X-3-5-6's, and that's why production is located in the US for those models.

Mexico might be a cheaper area to produce them, but I suspect there's too much negative stigma about building luxury vehicles (or, at least there was when BMW started manufacturing in the US), and it was a battle BMW chose not to fight.

gagrice

Cadillac doesn't seem to mind the stigma of building luxo barges in Mexico. There top seller SRX is 65% Mexico content including final assembly. Also the only Caddy with a plus in sales over last year. My guess it is their only cash cow.

robr2

And yet GM and Ford seem to be making their cars cheaper in Europe. What's wrong with this picture?

Is it cheaper? I don't know.

For BMW and MB to set up a plant in plant to make crossovers in small quantities for Europe probably doesn't make any sense. Exporting for SC does.

robr2

I'm not sure, but I believe NA (primarily USA) is the single largest market for BMW X-3-5-6's, and that's why production is located in the US for those models.

That's exactly the case. Building a a large plant back in Europe to make 95% export models doesn't make sense with the Euro penalty.

I'm surprised they haven't added a 3 series line to Spartanburg.

robr2

Mexico might be a cheaper area to produce them, but I suspect there's too much negative stigma about building luxury vehicles (or, at least there was when BMW started manufacturing in the US), and it was a battle BMW chose not to fight.

That may have been the case. Now that Audi is setting up there, it could happen.

ateixeira

Will they still get lousy 15-16 MPG combined?

You'd hope they'd try for improved efficiency, knowing Ford's had success with EcoBoost and Dodge's Pentastar/8 speed auto one-two punch have worked well.

GM needs for these to be a hit, this is where all the profits come from.

andre1969

You'd hope they'd try for improved efficiency, knowing Ford's had success with EcoBoost and Dodge's Pentastar/8 speed auto one-two punch have worked well.

I'd be curious to see how that Ram Pentastar/8-speed works out in real life. The Hemi/6-speed in my 2012 is rated 14/20. So far, in local driving I've been getting around 13.5, but the one time I took it on a trip, a run up to PA for one of the car shows back in October, I actually did get about 20 mpg.

I have a feeling my short trips are going to kill the economy of just about any vehicle, though. It's 2 1/2 miles to work, and especially now that the weather's getting colder, the car doesn't even get a chance to fully warm up. My Park Ave, which is rated 16/25 (18/27 under the system that was in place when it was new), will get as bad at 15 mph in heavy local driving, especially this time of year.

So, considering the extra weight, displacement, and power, I guess 13.5 out of the Ram ain't so bad! My old '85 Silverado is lucky to get 10, although the last time I did a highway run with it, it did manage to almost hit 18.

bpizzuti

Apparently the Colorado/Canyon twins will be the fuel-efficient trucks. These will instead be for the truck buyer ho prefers to pay more for fuel rather than controlling costs.

Translation: we at GM cede the work truck market to everyone else, and will go for the road-bound primadonna market instead. :shades:

Come to think of it, those are the guys with money to spend...

andres3

One of my work colleagues has had a Chevy Spark rental for the last couple weeks. His review is as follows:

1) It has everything inside; fully equipped.
2) It handles a bit wobbly, as if the wheel base and track width are too small.
3) Feels dangerous.
4) The mileage isn't that good as when he accelerates onto the freeway it gets 2 MPG readings (I know that's temporary, but that's what he said).

He normally drives a F250 truck, but it's in the body shop getting repaired.

busiris

2) It handles a bit wobbly, as if the wheel base and track width are too small.

Just guessing, but I suspect that's a direct result of attempting to remove the short-wheelbase ride harshness, giving the car a larger-than-it-is feel.

The # 3 comment is a direct result of # 2.

I remember the 05 Aveo hatchback I owned had a feel I could have described similarly.

Noting like the go-cart handling that my wife's 05 MINI displays.

dieselone

I have a feeling my short trips are going to kill the economy of just about any vehicle, though. It's 2 1/2 miles to work, and especially now that the weather's getting colder, the car doesn't even get a chance to fully warm up.

This time of year, my mileage is horrible. I filled up on Monday, reset the fuel computer. I've driven about 90 miles with a lot of shuttling kids around town, so far the computer says 12.6 and it usually reads high. My youngest has been needing to take her percussion set to school everyday for band, so I've been picking her up after school, and there is usually a 20 minute line to pick her up, so all week I've been idling at least that much.

I bet I'm getting more like 11 mpg if I were to fill up now and hand calculate.

uplanderguy

I'm a Chevy guy, and you couldn't give me a Spark:

1) Assembled in Korea
2) Too tiny and goofy-looking IMHO

I'd consider a Sonic, but that's as small as these old bones would even think about.

robr2

You really need to take the opinion of an F250 driver with a grain of salt when he's commenting on a Spark. He could put the Spark in the bed of his truck.

andre1969

Yeah, when you're used to bigger vehicles, smaller ones can feel kind of funny in comparison. One of my friends has a 2006 Xterra, which isn't exactly tiny, but smaller than what I usually drive. To me, it feels, for lack of a better word, jittery. Same for my uncle's 2003 Corolla.

I think when vehicles get either too big or too small, they tend to feel unstable, but in their own way. IMO, one of the most stable vehicles I ever owned was a 1989 Plymouth Gran Fury ex police car. It stopped fast, handled well, was hard to lock up the brakes, easy to correct if you lost traction, and was just very predictable in general. The only real down-side was that it had a fairly wide turning circle, given its size.

empoweredbc

You'd drive a 2013 Toyota Avalon, the most American-made car sold in America

Well over 90% domestic parts content, easily beating the next-best Toyota Camry & Ford F-150. Designed in California, manufactured in Detroit, assembled in Kentucky.

tlong

You'd drive a 2013 Toyota Avalon, the most American-made car sold in America

Well over 90% domestic parts content, easily beating the next-best Toyota Camry & Ford F-150. Designed in California, manufactured in Detroit, assembled in Kentucky.

Exactly correct.

While we cling to old notions (GM is American, Chrysler is American, Toyota is Japanese, Hyundai is Korean, etc.) - the fact remains that those companies don't CARE about countries - they're going to do what's best for them, across borders as necessary. GM makes many more cars in China than the US, and Honda and BMW and many others export from the US to all over the world. Let's buy things that are made here and forget the badge.

uplanderguy

First off, only Toyota's most expensive model can make that claim, and secondly, I couldn't buy a car that looked like that even if I didn't mind spending the money. Just MHO.

Corporate decisions still come out of Japan. As I've posted here before, just look back to the unintended acceleration thing a couple years back. The head of Toyota North America looked like a little kid, deferring every important question to Mr. Toyoda. To say that there is nothing Japanese about Toyota as a company, is being disingenuous. And I'm still rather mystified that a company who says they are so 'American' was completely hamstrung here, and I mean completely, when the awful tsunami hit there in 2011.

mcdawgg

"And I'm still rather mystified that a company who says they are so 'American' was completely hamstrung here, and I mean completely, when the awful tsunami hit there in 2011."

I've heard that one time and time again. You realize that if ONE part in a car is made in Japan, that the car cannot be built, right? Even the cars with the highest NA part content (Camry, Avalon, etc) cannot be built without ALL the parts, and yes, some of those come from Japan, etc.

uplanderguy

I realize that, but it's peculiar. Must be a major part or parts.

uplanderguy

Well over 90% domestic parts content

I ask this respectfully, but what does 'well over 90%' mean, exactly, and you mean North American content, not 'domestic' content, correct? I'm not aware of a single sourcing sticker on a new car that lists only 'domestic' content.

As another member pointed out a week or so ago, there are still a good number of Toyota models that are built exclusively in Japan for the North American market. One hears a lot about Mexican D3 products but not very much (here, anyway) about that. I won't buy a new D3 product made in Mexico, myself, but that's a personal preference only.

bpizzuti

by mcdawgg
Dec 14, 2012 (4:46 am)

Replying to: uplanderguy (Dec 14, 2012 2:31 am)

I've heard that one time and time again. You realize that if ONE part in a car is made in Japan, that the car cannot be built, right?

by uplanderguy
Dec 14, 2012 (5:11 am)

Replying to: mcdawgg (Dec 14, 2012 4:46 am)

I realize that, but it's peculiar. Must be a major part or parts.

I'm thinking there's a disconnect here.

robr2

I realize that, but it's peculiar. Must be a major part or parts.

I remember reading an article after the tsunami that showed how reliant the Japanese suppliers are on each other and JIT manufacturing methods.

IIRC, a major component could not be supplied because a two person sub-supplier three layers down made just one specialized part in their little shop was wiped out. They were able to recover their tooling and then move to some space in their customer's plant. But in the meantime, that shutdown a Japanese car plant.

World wide Ford couldn't get Tuxedo Black paint because BASF made the pigment in just one factory in Japan.

uplanderguy

World wide Ford couldn't get Tuxedo Black paint because BASF made the pigment in just one factory in Japan.

I remember that, but that's a far cry from basically shutting down production.

uplanderguy

I realize that, but it's peculiar. Must be a major part or parts.

I'm thinking there's a disconnect here.

If you could remember '70's production, there was a major tire maker strike. New cars were still shipped, but without spare tires and a voucher to provide the spare at a later date. I vaguely remember other reasons which caused cars to not be shipped with this or that, but can remember absolutely nothing that hampered production like the Japanese tsunami...nothing even close.

bpizzuti

Hardly. What if the controller chip for the EFI is only sourced from one fab, for example?

uplanderguy

I'd consider a Sonic, but that's as small as these old bones would even think about.

I think it's worth reiterating, as I never see anyone say it but me, but the Sonic is the only subcompact built in the United States. And if you take CR at their word, they've given it a positive one-year-old-reliability review as well. Not bad for all the naysayers on the other board when it came out.

lemko

I would've bought one if they hadn't made the 2013 model so vomitrociously ugly. My wife and I were looking at the last generation model at the Philadelphia Auto Show and thought it was nice.

bpizzuti

This isn't the 70s. Manufacturing is based on keeping minimal stock and having a constant incoming supply of parts. Warehouse space is expensive after all, and warehousing is 100% overhead. Anything that happens to disrupt that supply, if it includes one critical component, such as an ECU, catalytic converter, or even a frigging gas tank, if you run out of them, you can't build the car. There's any number of critical components to a car that would be unique, even down to a steering wheel (which is not a simple component anymore anyway).

gagrice

I won't buy a new D3 product made in Mexico, myself, but that's a personal preference only.

I find it sad that my 1998 Suburban built in Mexico had better fit and finish than my 2005 GMC Sierra Hybrid built in the USA. It is most unlikely I will ever buy another vehicle made with UAW labor. Though the Jeep GC diesel has me intrigued, unless Chrysler closes the plant with the 13 potheads reinstated, I will not trust them to build a reliable vehicle. A company with so little control over the actions of their workers is not a good company to do business with. Where is there random drug testing program?

uplanderguy

This isn't the 70s.

You got that right. Then, shortages of non-critical parts didn't completely stop production. Imagine all the warehouse space utilized by the J3 by cars just...sitting there.

uplanderguy

Persoanlly, I find it hard to believe that the line worker can have much influence on assembly quality these days. I believe cars are engineered to come down the line with much less personal handling of fit than even in the '90's. Seriously, I can't recall a single issue of poor fit that I could attribute to an assembly worker, even on my cheapest cars of the last fifteen or so years.

robr2

You got that right. Then, shortages of non-critical parts didn't completely stop production. Imagine all the warehouse space utilized by the J3 by cars just...sitting there.

I guess you don't understand JIT planning. It's more expensive to keep parts sitting around than having them arrive JIT. It's one of the pinnacles of the Toyota Production System - the goal is to eliminate waste. Keeping extra parts sitting around eliminates waste.

The process does make contingency plans but I'm guessing a tsunami wasn't one of factors planned for.

BTW, the tsunami shut down GM plants in the US.

uplanderguy

Rob, aware of all of that.

Just saying, one really can't compare the closing of 'some' GM plants in the U.S., to the level of the cessation of production of Japanese companies, even in the U.S., at that time. Not even close.

gagrice

nothing that hampered production like the Japanese tsunami...nothing even close.

Not many natural disasters come close to the Japanese tsunami. At least to an industrialized nation. The ironic part is it gave GM a shot at selling more cars. That did not last long. They are losing market share again. If not for Chinese joint venture sales GM would be headed back into bankruptcy. All the major auto makers are up double digits while GM squeaked out a 3% gain, mostly on fleet sales of vehicles. How many of those 34k Mexican Captivas were sold to Uncle Sam?

gagrice

I can't recall a single issue of poor fit that I could attribute to an assembly worker, even on my cheapest cars of the last fifteen or so years.

Well I can and GM lost a loyal customer over it. The dealer had it several times trying to block the air leak around the door. I finally gave up and wanted to trade it on a Denali Yukon. The dealer gave me such a lowball trade offer on my two year old Sierra, I sold it on Craigslist for $7k more than his offer. Then proceeded to buy from a reputable company. GM shot themselves in the foot with shoddy built vehicles. And obviously I am not in the minority.

uplanderguy

When I've had any problems with my cars in the past decade or so, I can usually attribute it to engineering or poor quality at a supplier, as opposed to "Joe UAW" on the final assembly line. Just me, though. For full disclosure, neither I nor anyone in my family has been an autoworker or an employee at a supplier or dealer.

stever

Rubber stripping is easily reslotted or reglued, and hinges are adjustable. The only thing I can think of that would point to an assembly worker would be sloppy drilling/tapping of the holes for the hinges. Can't imagine that's not done with jigs using registration marks though (unless it's done by a robot).

imidazol97

>what does 'well over 90%' mean, exactly, and you mean North American content, not 'domestic' content,

Also how many of those NA parts are from suppliers which are actually controlled by the foreign companies.

tlong

Corporate decisions still come out of Japan

Corporate decisions still come out of Japan

So what? Sounds kind of xenophobic to me.

Multitudes of decisions are made at every level in the process of running a company. Plenty of decisions are still made in the USA, too. GM corporate decisions from the USA made the crap that we suffered with for decades, and their execs were from the USA. Wagoner pulled down over $10m/year while he led GM down a rathole. Gee, I really want to support execs like that. Chrysler decisions come from Italy, too. Who really cares where 50 extra decision-makers work, when the bulk of the manufacturing is distributed all over the world? I'm sure GM makes a lot of decisions in China about the cars made there, too.

My point was that thinking the D3 are American or other companies are ONLY from the parent country is an antiquated notion that is nice for forum discussion, but not that illustrative of the real world.

uplanderguy

Do you seriously think that there are only 50 Toyota decision makers in Japan that affect what happens at Toyota North America?

I simply prefer to buy a car built in America by an American-headquartered and historied company.

I always expect an epiphany when I drive a foreign car. Trouble is, I never get one. Absolutely, positively the worst rental car I've driven in the past year was a Camry that clearly needed new control arm bushings up front and which also had the TCS light stay on. 15K miles. Oh yeah, the car must've been in an accident per folks on here. Possible, but...um, OK.

obyone

On the GMT-800 trucks GM had the hinges welded saving on some 12,000,000 bolts. Course later there was a TSB for adjusting ill fitting doors. Part of the solution was to break the welds, drill and tap holes........course this was done at your local dealership who had no jigs.