Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

xrunner2

Well, shades of the old Cadillac Cimmaron which was just a fancy Chevrolet compact car. The new Cadillac ATS base model uses Chevy Malibu's 2.5 liter inline four according to a recent road test by Car and Driver. They also say that "the engine sounds like a two-cycle leaf blower warming up". They also say that the engine is "a bit too coarse". See a recent issue for their full report. They say the car handled very well, but pointed out some deficiencies.

A coarse 4-cylinder Chevy engine in a Cadillac? Does not make sense. But, expect that hard-core supporters of GM and Cadillac will overlook this, gloss over it and somehow, and incredibly, exclaim the virtues of a coarse 4-cylinder in a Cadillac.

Edmunds politely says about the ATS base engine; "Lackluster base engine performance".

ateixeira

LS sales are up. What do we know?

ateixeira

A quick peek at Fuelly and most model years for the Corolla are getting 31.something. Real world mileage is far better than, say, the Elantra.

It's a word-of-mouth car. Someone has a good experience, so they tell a friend.

Having said that I'd still take an Elantra GT with the pano moonroof.

ateixeira

Thanks for clearing that up, so we're looking at the period where they phase out consumer sales of the old model.

ateixeira

Maybe he has multiple personality disorder.

ateixeira

Are 3 engine options too many? That's what we should ask.

When the -V model comes out that would make 4.

I say drop the base engine. I wonder if it's really just meant for fleets?

fintail

Even the hint of new sells, whether or not it is actually new (2014 E-class should do likewise), and that average consumer knows nothing about design? We know that much :shades:

ateixeira

Agree totally.

People get excited about new colors.

robr2

Are 3 engine options too many? That's what we should ask...When the -V model comes out that would make 4...I say drop the base engine. I wonder if it's really just meant for fleets?

I think the 2.0 is just there to meet a price point. BMW offers 3 engines in the 3 series not including the M. The 320i is offered for the same reason.

fintail

It's kind of a European strategy, too. Something for everyone. Or what American cars were 50 years ago.

Even here, there are 5 engine possibilities in the E-class. But, it has become kind of a new version of a traditional American car. Powertrains from frugal to wild tuned V8, and the series is made in a sedan, hardtop coupe, wagon, and convertible.

andre1969

What new LS? All I see is an Exnerized facelift. It's structurally the same car that we've had since 07.

Wow, it's hard to believe that design has been out since 2007 now. Shows how fast the time goes by! I still keep thinking of it as a "new" car, even though it's in its 7th model year.

I thought it was a handsome, if wallflowerish car before the Exnerized facelift. The facelift has uglied it up a bit IMO, but it's a bit bolder than before. And still tolerable.

gagrice

LS sales are up. What do we know?

Still behind the competition by a good ways. They have not even caught up with last years numbers for Mercedes "S". Lexus is just not keeping up with MB & BMW. If not for the RX they would be in real bad shape. Many on the Lexus blog are calling for Lexus to dump the ES as it has been beat out by the bigger better looking Avalon. Plus the Avalon is the MOST AMERICAN MADE car of all. Buy American, Buy an Avalon. :P

mcdawgg

CR says the same thing - Corolla only beat by a hybrid and a diesel in real world mpg test in this class - I think this was published last fall??

Back to the topic, is the Mississippi Corolla plant up and running?

ateixeira

The ES is selling incredibly well, up 116.4% and keep in mind the last one also sold well, so it's double already-great sales.

Enthusiasts would make the worst product planners in the world, no doubt. They have no clue, none, as to what will sell.

Trained baboons throwing darts would make better decisions.

Bean counters around the world feel vindicated.

As for the Avalon - it's also doing well, also more than double the previous model. American made and I believe American designed as well, CALTY does these, no? I don't even think it's sold in Japan.

Toyota's Buick.

busiris

Back to the topic, is the Mississippi Corolla plant up and running?

http://pressroom.toyota.com/manufacturing+engineering/mississippi/releases/

andre1969

The ES is selling incredibly well, up 116.4% and keep in mind the last one also sold well, so it's double already-great sales.

Plus, the ES ain't a bad looking car, in my book. I think it carries off that '61 Plymouth motif better than anything else in the Lexus lineup.

True, the Avalon is bigger, inside and out. But, I think the ES is still big enough. And there are plenty of people who want a nice, luxurious, comfortable car, but aren't that concerned about sporty handling. And, don't want something quite as big as an Avalon.

And, IMO, the new Avalon is one fugly looking car. The front-end looks like a few different things got stuck together, like a 2003 Accord, an early 00's Sebring...I even see a bit of Miata in the way the front-end puckers a bit, and the creases that pronounce the wheel openings. And the overall shape makes me think of a Hyundai Sonata. The rear has sort of a generic look to it that I tended to associate with Hyundai first, but then others started copying it. I do think the rear is the nicest looking part of the car, though.

I think the ES and GS look too much alike though. At a quick glance, I can't tell them apart. I could distinguish between an '82 and '83 Malibu quicker than I could the ES and GS!

ateixeira

The new ES is supposed to be based on the Avalon now. Looks like it would have a lot more rear headroom, not that I've looked (not on my radar).

The Devil's in the Details, but the Fusion looks great and the Avalon doesn't, even though it basically has the same grille mounted upside down.

andre1969

The Devil's in the Details, but the Fusion looks great and the Avalon doesn't, even though it basically has the same grille mounted upside down.

True...the Fusion is downright sexy compared to the Avalon! I think the difference is that with the Fusion, they tried to blend all of the details in, to make all work together. I know they're going after the Aston Martin look, but it reminds me a bit of a 1957-59 Chrysler 300 C/D/E! With the Avalon, it's like they just took a bunch of random elements that had nothing to do with each other, threw them at the car, and hoped for the best.

Do the Fusion and the latest Mazda 6 share any of their architecture these days? I liked the Mazda 6 they had at the DC auto show, but unfortunately the power was disconnected and the seat was moved fairly far forward, so I couldn't gauge its comfort. I saw one out on the road this morning, coming up behind me. At first, I didn't realize what it was...looked faintly Jaguar-esque to me. Its grille has a bit of a puckered-up look, but I think it wears it pretty well. Like you said, the devil is in the details!

ateixeira

I don't think so...Ford and Mazda are sort of going through a "divorce" of sorts.

The 6 looks OK to me, just not very compelling in any particular way. A diesel should come soon, that'll be interesting.

berri

My wife has a friend who owned a problem plagued Cadillac CTS. We have a neighbor down the road who took pristine car of a DTS, but it too had problems, the last of which was big dips in their car seat bottom cushions (and they aren't heavy people). Both recently traded their Cadillac's for a Lexus ES. The longevity issue is one I think GM still needs to work on because it still holds back potential buyers and turns more than a few GM buyers to competitors for their next car.

andre1969

Truth be told, my 2000 Park Ave isn't aging all that gracefully. I guess I shouldn't complain, as it's going on 14 model years old! But, it just hit 90,000 miles on Monday.

Engine/transmission-wise, it's fine. But, it's had brake issues, including needing new front calipers, and a re-build of one of the rears. Also needed one new axle and sway bar links. It actually needed swaybar links three times since I've owned it, but the first two times, they were put on wrong, over-tightened, so they failed prematurely. I won't hold that against the car, at least. Latest issue was when it had some MAF sensor go bad, and a few other issues.

On top of that, the rear window defroster quit working, and front right door passenger window has a spot where it seems to stick. One of the courtesy lights in back broke, at the switch, and wouldn't turn off so I simply took out the bulb. The fuel gauge gets a mind of its own once the car gets below half a tank. And a few of the power adjustments have failed, in both the passenger and driver seats.

At least I'm not having catastrophic failures, like engine, transmission, total suspension rebuilds, a/c compressor blowing up, etc. But, it's just a lot of annoying little things that, in my opinion, just seem to be dying before their time. It sort of lends credence to that old yarn "GM cars run bad longer than most cars run at all!" :P

I won't totally condemn GM for this car though, as it was 10 years old when I bought it. It had 56,372 miles on it. While I haven't been overly impressed with it, it hasn't turned me off to GM. If they built a car that caught my eye, I'd give them a chance.

I am curious to check out the 2014 Impala when it's out. I sat in one at the DC auto show and liked it. I have a feeling I'd still pick a Charger over it, though.

fintail

That, and consumers really are dumb sheep.

For ES/Avalon sales, might be handier to compare them to volumes when the previous style was new, rather than at the end of their respective lives. I suspect Avalon sold better in 06 than 12, and ES sold more in 07 than 12, etc.

fintail

No fun to drive in any kind of spirited way, but probably great for hitting the interstates.

ateixeira

07 were the dream days, any car on the lots was selling. Wasn't it close to 17M in volume back then?

What would be nice would be to look at market share, or even segment share.

Still, ES doubling, and Avalon doubling also? And these cars are supposed to overlap and cannibalize each other?

I'm sure Toyota is pleased with the sales results.

ateixeira

I want a nice, long wheelbase and a comfy seat, so an LS would likely make a good road trip candidate.

Haven't sat in one in ages, to be honest.

Just read Autoblog's take on their S8 and it was quick and still got over 24mpg, there's a solid road trip vehicle. You could make it from here to Florida in 10 9 8 7 hours with probably only one fuel stop.

Edit: S8, and link:

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/04/04/2013-audi-s8-review/

andre1969

You could make it from here to Florida in 10 9 8 7 hours with probably only one fuel stop. '

Just watch out down in southern VA, around Emporia! They nabbed me around Mile Marker 13 on I-95, when I went to Florida back in 2005.

ateixeira

Yeah, I usually look for a "rabbit", i.e. someone going really fast, and then follow 1/2 mile or so behind.

Last time I drove to Florida I went with my brother. I napped and woke up 2 states later. My GPS registered top speed, and I just chuckled. It's his license...though I told him if any speed cam ticket came in he was payin'!

andre1969

Yeah, I usually look for a "rabbit", i.e. someone going really fast, and then follow 1/2 mile or so behind.

I try that, but it doesn't always work. When they nabbed me, I was in the fast lane, but going with the flow in a fairly heavy line of traffic. Unfortunately, they're trained to go for those out of state plates!

ateixeira

Yeah, you're not likely to challenge them in court.

Traffic is usually heavy on I95. I like to drive late, late. We did shifts, one drove one slept.

fintail

Relative to the market then, yes. Fresh models sell more than stale ones, and the Avalon/ES were pretty dated at the end of their previous runs.

andre1969

Yeah, you're not likely to challenge them in court.

I actually did go down, probably shocked the heck out of them. I don't know if going to court did any good or not, though. They didn't do a "probation before judgement" like Maryland will sometimes let you do. I pulled my driving record soon after, and it did show up on my record, but there were no points associated with it.

The offense was 78 in a 65, which in Maryland would probably be 2-3 points. And, my insurance never went up, but I think I just got lucky, and they happened to not pull my record!

fintail

That mileage is insane, hard to believe. That car reminds me of my German rental, well, other than mine having much less power. But my mileage was well into the 30s.

andre1969

I just checked www.fueleconomy.gov and they show the 2013 S8 rated at 15/26. Pretty impressive, that something that big and powerful can return numbers like that.

ateixeira

True, but these volumes are like the good old days of 2007.

The real test will be sales volumes in the 2nd/3rd year. 4th year usually brings on the refresh.

The Avalon outsold Lincoln. They want to relaunch the MKZ (good luck).

The ES nearly did, too. The ES did outsell Mitsubishi and Volvo. How does one upscale car outsell an entire mainstream brand?

How long before Mitsubishi pulls the plug on cars? I wonder if the TV store will change the oil on the Outlander Sport.

dieselone

It sort of lends credence to that old yarn "GM cars run bad longer than most cars run at all!"

I've never heard it put that way, but that certainly describes how I view GM products.

My Grandpa had a few late model Park Ave's and neither held up very well. My parents inherited his last one and my dad kept it for a while. But it was expensive for him to keep going once it got in to the 80k plus mileage range. Head gasket and numerous electrical gremlins. My dad gave it to my sister to drive while she went back to college for her masters. She drove it a few years to about 120k miles. At that point it ran, but it leaked oil pretty bad, and many of the electrical conveniences no longer worked. As soon as she saved enough money, she traded it in on a Honda.

My Suburban wasn't much different. I can deal with things breaking, but it's hard to fix the rattles, the poor quality interior, and the lousy suspension tuning. I just couldn't take it anymore and had to get rid of it.

My Expedition at 119k is aging too, but the difference is, I still like how it drives. It doesn't feel much different from the day I bought it. The problems areas are paint and trim which are peeling and fading. Rattles aren't to bad, but it's developed a missfire during heavy throttle between 3-4k rpm. Stay under 3k rpm it runs fine. Been so busy lately, I can't go without a vehicle. But it needs to see a mechanic ASAP.

It has been a year or so since it's been to a mechanic, so being a Ford, that probably is reason to celebrate;)

I'm really digging the new Ram. The new Silverado does absolutely nothing for me. Still looks cheap and outdated to my eyes (from the pics I've seen anyway). I don't know if I can give up a 3rd row. If I decided to go with a pickup, I will have a hard time choosing an F150 or Ram. If the Ram 1500 had the towing ability and cargo capacity of the Ford, it would be no contest.

fintail

Adjust them for market differences, then. I see the new models doubling 2011-12 numbers as fairly irrelevant - the market is stronger today, and the cars are fresh.

Mitsu is kind of on life support here, and Volvo is niche-y with a slowly aging fleet. Not a surprise.

Targeting subprime customers and offering odd products with a sometimes patchy sales network isn't a way to success.

andre1969

I just checked my records, and factoring out the original purchase of the car, it looks like my Park Ave has allocated out to around $136 per month in maintenance/repairs (plus an emissions test and registration renewal).

It will go for months without needing anything, but then something will crop up. But, I figure that as long as that monthly average stays no worse than around $150 or so, AND the car doesn't start leaving me stranded, I'll keep it.

Maybe that's even a little high? I just checked my old Intrepid's records, and over the 10 years I owned it, it came out to around $78 per month in maintenance/repairs (and registration/emissions tests).

I ran a forecast with Excel, and if the Park Ave can make it to December 2015, its 6 year mark with me, without needing anything other than oil changes its monthly average for the full 6 years would be down to about $78 or so.

It has new brakes on the back. Front brakes, tires, and belts only have about 15,000 miles on them. Transmission was also serviced about 15,000 miles ago, and it had a coolant flush. So I guess it's quite possible that it won't need much at all between now and December 2015.

ateixeira

I couldn't find March 2007 sales figures, but I did find May 2007. The Avalon is selling better now. The ES is close but not quite where they were in 2007.

I'm sure they're delighted to be back to those numbers, and this years isn't quite as strong as those glory days.

berri

I think I want to up-size to a crossover next year. I walk a lot, so for the past year or so I've been talking to people that own crossovers to get their feedback. If you just BS a bit and then ask, most people seem remarkably agreeable to talk candidly about their vehicle, house, repair guys, etc. Anyway, Lambda owners seem pretty mixed; about 50/50 on whether they've had issues and whether they'd buy it again. Personally, from a QA perspective I find that a bit disconcerting. It's almost like there is a wide amount of variability in plant shift caliber or vendor parts. However, so far it greatly beats the feedback I get on Jeep GC which has been pretty negative on the buy again opinion. The current Explorer is better than both, but still about 20 -25% not sure they'd get it again. Highlander and Pilot have run about 15-20% negative. Certainly not scientific by any means, but interesting and kind of disappointing since I like the lambda's. When I factor in the relatively high sticker price on the GM models, I'm now leaning against one. I think GM may have a steeper hill to climb than Ackerson either believes, or at least states. On a positive note, I think GM really improved the lambda product interiors with its updates this year.

gagrice

I'm sure they're delighted to be back to those numbers, and this years isn't quite as strong as those glory days.


I think Lexus glory days are gone unless they can catch back up with the Germans. Most of ToyLex cars are negative numbers for March and only slightly up for the year. If it weren't for trucks and SUVs Toyota would not have much to brag about.

uplanderguy

The fuel gauge gets a mind of its own once the car gets below half a tank.

Have you ever used Chevron's 'Techron' product in the black bottle, available at any auto parts store? The label says that among keeping the engine clean internally, it keeps fuel gauge sensors from being negatively affected by sulfurs in today's fuels. Someone told me about it and I actually tried it in our old Uplander when the gauge started to seem to act goofy. You put a bottle in when you're near empty. It worked.

ateixeira

Lexus did fine - ES, LS, and RX all had good months.

BMW had a good month but I wonder how much subsidized leases helped. The 3er was down already, it's the crossovers that is helping their numbers.

imidazol97

> it keeps fuel gauge sensors from being negatively affected by sulfurs in today's fuels.

It's not the sulfur. Instead it's the two metal prongs on the fuel sensor wear away as they rub the windings on the flat potentiometer which is the variable resistance based on length. Easily replaced through the access hole in trunk. It's a service item.

busiris

BMW had a good month but I wonder how much subsidized leases helped. The 3er was down already, it's the crossovers that is helping their numbers.

BMW has only introduced the 4-door in the newer model 3 series, and a lot of buyers are most likely waiting for the newer coupes and convertibles to be introduced. There are several options that aren't available on the current coupes and convertibles that are coming on the new models, such as HUD.

Also, BMW is fiddling around with the naming/numbering conventions, and the new coupes and convertibles will be called the 4 series, if what Ive been reading is correct.

Those things probably explain some of it...

gagrice

Lexus did fine - ES, LS, and RX all had good months.

If you consider going from first place to 3rd in the Lux market. And mostly their cheapo models selling. The LS is what they are selling as updated and not even close to the outdated "S" which is due for an update this year.

The two best Lexus sellers, the ES and RX, are going well below invoice to move inventory. They think giving the wannabe luxo barges away will get them back into the Lux lead. No way you can compare an RX to an X5 or ML. They are World's apart in luxury. The only true Luxury at Lexus is the LS, GS and LX. There was a time that Lexus held the luxury lead and deserved it. Just like Toyota they rested on their laurels and are now playing catch up.

ateixeira

Good point - the new roadster will come even later.

I guess they will list 4 series sales separately at some point?

Nissan includes Altima coupe with total Altima sales and took the crown from the Camry last month. Though if you think about it, Camry was still the best selling sedan.

ateixeira

Truecar has a base ES street price at $36k, I doubt they're losing money when most models have at least a package or two. That means most transactions are in the $40s.

RX is about $3-5 grand higher than that.

CT lost the most in volume and that's the cheapest model. Probably not profitable anyway.

The Germans are getting volume but they're piling on incentives. Remember, Europe sales are down, so they have to sell cars elsewhere. All the local golf tournaments are around the corner and I'm sure they'll use hundreds of "program cars" which they do count as sales. They sell them for peanuts once the events are done.

M-B sales will skyrocket when the CLA arrives, watch. Problem is, FWD and $29,999, is that a real Benz? And will they make any money?

It will crush the CT in volume, that's for sure.

ateixeira

The change only affects 2010-2012 Chevrolet Equinox, GMC Terrain and Buick LaCrosse and Regal models with 2.4-liter LAF and LEA four-cylinder engines.

GM sent letters asking 778,956 owners of those vehicles to take them back to dealerships. The service will be done at no charge until Feb. 28, 2015.

Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130405/RETAIL05/130409922/g- m-alerts-779000-owners-to-need-for-more-frequent-oil-changes&cciid=email-autonew- s-daily#ixzz2PcihU14s
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uplanderguy

I wonder why it doesn't cover the 2.4 in my Malibu.

My dealer does insist on using partial synthetic in the Malibu (unlike my Cobalt). He said GM says to do that on 2011 and newer cars. I didn't bother to look in my owner's manual; guess I should do that.

I'm an old f**t, but I never trusted the oil life monitors to begin with. I was always religious about 3K mile changes, but am probably up to around 4K now when I change.

uplanderguy

Since you've had a model (LeSabre) similar to andre's, I'll defer to your judgment, but I don't think I'd have any work done to a fuel gauge sensor until I tried Techron. It worked for me, and a quick search showed it worked for this BMW owner too:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1695882