Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

fintail

WTO is an absolute train wreck, maybe even worse than the pointless UN.

I am surprised dirty money (WTO, being based in Geneva, is all about dirty money) hasn't eliminated the content stickers on cars.

Mr_Shiftright

The UN has very little power. They don't even have an army.

Nonetheless the UN is a good thing. It never promised the world paradise, only to keep it out of Hell. And it has done that.

Isolationism is a lethal prescription for current ills.

stever

The Constitution isn't unblemished - it was written to be amended so it could adapt to changing times, and the framers incorporated a judicial branch to balance out the interpretations of the executive and Congress.

Seems to have worked better than the multiple tiers of decision makers at certain unnamed automotive companies with their generic corporate manifestos.

Mr_Shiftright

Exactly. Pose as the messiah and do the devil's work, so to speak. A nifty corporate trick.

fintail

There's been plenty of hell in the world since the UN was hatched. The UN is a paper tiger so long as an offending nation has the right friends to veto any action, or if the rest are simply afraid. Expensive and pointless. But it has provided high paid high perk pseudo-jobs to usually already well-connected glorified layabouts, especially from banana republic style areas, who now can flit around the west without fear.

Expensive and pointless, kind of like the burgeoning overpaid underworked irresponsible executive/upper managerial ranks, the D3 included, who promise much but deliver little.

berri

Hey Gagrice, you may be a few steps behind here. Our Supreme Court has already taken over the Constitution as suites their partisan political preferences.

Mr_Shiftright

Perhaps, but you did not, in fact, end up as a well cooked nuclear waffle, so the UN did its job. Everyone should bow down to their UN altar every morning, for that, if nothing else.

I'm not so sure that "patriotic buying" would solve anything. If a nation can't compete, then patriotic buying is just an admission of failure, if you ask me.

fintail

i don't know if I can think of examples where the UN stepped up and rescued the world from the brink of nuclear holocaust. Seems to be just another so-called NGO that still hoovers up piles of money. Must be a tough life for its workers to zoom around Manhattan and Geneva and Vienna. About as real world as the diplomatic corps.

Patriotic buying standing alone doesn't help anything, neither does the current policy of treacherous trade standards that don't aim for a level playing field, or at the same time, reward offshorers. And on the other side, not buying because of nation of origin can have pros and cons, too. There are some places in this world from which I would not buy a car.

Mr_Shiftright

You are the example. You're still alive.

I don't think "patriotic buying" is the same as using common sense when you buy. If you buy an American ____ that is half as good as the Japanese____, for about the same price, and you know this, then that's kinda dumb IMO.

fintail

Nah, I mean an incident. It's not 1962, I don't see the UN doing anything, especially in recent times, except for employing a small army of glorified paper pushers and pseudo-academics. Making the world safer now? Nah. Just submitting to those with veto power when a nation becomes offensive, and every now and then fooling some white-mans-guilt suffering Euro nations into submitting tricked troops into quagmires where they don't belong.

For a car purchasing example, I wouldn't buy a Chinese car that was half as good as an American car for a quarter of the price. I'd buy what I like most, and what I like is determined by many factors.

Mr_Shiftright

We'd probably all be dead without the UN. As Churchill said "Jaw, jaw, jaw is much better than war, war war." It's the place where nations communicate with one another. We should have had a UN in 1900.

I guess someday in the not too distant future we'll see Chinese cars here. They are the new kid on the block and the current global powers will resent them much the same way as the former European powers resented America's intrusion into global affairs during the World War One era.

lemko

I absolutely agree that we should get out of the UN and WTO!

lemko

BRAVO! Well said, fintail!!!!

fintail

It's not 1962 though, I can ask the group about what they've done lately. And really, WTO is more relevant to this thread - and that one has been a real mess for the US.

I wonder what a 1900 UN would have done about British crimes (Churchill was there) in the Boer War. Funny how he was there when times were high and when disaster was at the door ...I am not sure his is a name I would bring up in regards to sustainable policies.

Seeing how American trade policy completely disregards any idea of fair trade or a level playing field, you are probably right about the Chinese cars. The resentment now is much different - US was resented for being (relatively) egalitarian (and was begged to enter both wars), not for being a social, environmental, and IP disaster.

Mr_Shiftright

Pulling out of the UN would be sheer lunacy and pulling out of WTO is fairy-tale isolationism, also a lethal maneuver in the 21st century. History teaches us that the most banal misunderstandings among nations have often led to catastrophe.

I know, it's no fun being part of an empire on the downhill side of the roller coaster, but that's just the way it is. The hogs have emptied the trough.

stever

Does any other auto market go crazy for accessories and mods, especially the over-the-top ones, than the US?

2013 SEMA Auto Show

Vandemonium naturally caught my eye.

fintail

Yes, the WTO has been a boon for Americans. All hail our most favored trading "partner" when you trade accumulated capital for poisoned and/or stolen junk.

Maybe looking at why the empire is in decline, who supports it, and what movements and supposed NGOs they support, would be eye opening.

fintail

Japan goes nuts for aftermarket junk - huge tuning culture there.

From SEMA, I like this the most:



Too much photoshop in most of those images.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't see a refrigerator on the roof--what happened?

stever

Probably is under the bike on the roof, hidden by the rocketbox. :-)

gagrice

I'm not so sure that "patriotic buying" would solve anything. If a nation can't compete, then patriotic buying is just an admission of failure, if you ask me.

I was at the VW dealership today. I was looking at their logo products such as coffee cups. Surprisingly they were ALL Made in USA. I wonder if GM, C and F use US companies to make their signature doo dads? I was on the the US Carrier Midway for a party recently. I wanted to buy a T-Shirt with the Midway logo. All were made in Central America. Not setting a good example in my opinion.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh I don't know. We've been interfering in Central America for so many decades it does seem fitting (no pun intended).

gagrice

You seem to be pro union. At least where Public Employees are concerned. Yet you don't seem upset that our government has enabled off shoring millions of American private sector jobs to foreign countries very profitable. Or that we allow products into the US market from countries that have little or no human rights, and are gross polluters.

stever

I love the way we on-shore public sector jobs to "consultants" who had the same job in the public sector a month before. For three times the cost, although it's the politically connected companies employing the contractors that skim off the bulk of the extra money.

Anyone tire-kicking an "American" car this weekend?

Michaell

Anyone tire-kicking an "American" car this weekend?

I test drove a Chevy Cruze a week or two ago and a Ford Fiesta last night. Not sure that either of them are built in the US.

This weekend, I may look at Subaru, Toyota and Scion.

andre1969

They build Chevy Cruzes in Lordstown, Ohio, at the factory that used to build Cobalts and G5's. Every time I go to Cedar Point, I pass by that factory. There may be other locations that build them as well, though.

gagrice

Anyone tire-kicking an "American" car this weekend?

I tried. Jeep promised a diesel Grand Cherokee in June. Here it is November and none to even test drive. Jeep keeps touting them on their website. Reminds me of Microsoft and their promises of the latest and greatest. Has America lost their ability to compete on the World Stage? I don't think I would like the JGC diesel anymore than I am liking the Touareg TDI.

The new 3.0L EcoDiesel V6 engine+ delivers clean-diesel technology with low CO2 emissions. The clean and refined powertrain delivers optimum Best-in-Class fuel economy+ with awe-inspiring performance. Combined with the advanced eight-speed automatic transmission, the 2014 Jeep® Grand Cherokee can attain up to 30 hwy mpg+, drive up to a Best-in-Class+ 730 miles on one tank+ and tow up to a Best-in-Class+ 7,400 pounds+ to fulfill whatever your nomadic heart desires.

http://www.jeep.com/en/2014/grand_cherokee/capabilities/?sid=1037056&KWNM=%2Bjee- p+%2Bdiesels&KWID=1425533958&TR=1&channel=paidsearch

Mr_Shiftright

Those are all red herrings. I'm trying to focus on the unions that serve American workers now working. The UAW isn't to blame for beheadings in Mexico or for the crap people buy at Walmart.

The only response that makes sense to me, if one wants to dissolve union influence in the private sector, is to cut workers into the profits of the company. We have some very successful business models here in No. California that do that.

if the perception is that auto unions are no longer necessary because we have such good labor laws now that did not exist when unions first formed (and that's is essentially a correct view I think), then protection from strike and from worker discontent and lack of productivity must come from somewhere else--and I propose the increased generosity of management in profit-sharing.

Public sector unions are I think outside the scope of this topic,, so I'm not going to cause more topic drift by addressing that further.

roadburner

Anyone tire-kicking an "American" car this weekend?

I looked at the Fiesta ST- made in Mexico so no UAW involvement.
Ditto for the 500 Abarth- except the engine is assembled in Detroit by the UAW- a major black mark.
If/when I do buy something it will likely be some flavor of CPO BMW 1 Series, 3 Series, or ///M car...

fintail

Maybe it's because Europeans in general are less tolerant of sweatshop junk from our "most favored" "partner" than Muricans - you'll find less of that junk in German stores than in the US. Related as that's a society with much higher organized labo support and membership. Hmmm...patriotic buying in a way, to keep the game going.

In the US, where losses are socialized and profits are privatized, it doesn't work. But we're all just a step away from becoming millionaires, so it's cool.

lemko

The way things are going, we will all be millionaires - in Zimbabwean currency!




"Let me get the check!"

fintail

I am not too worried about massive inflation - the powers that be know how to manipulate numbers to keep it in check, and know there will be harsh consequences if they don't. Worse case scenario is a 1970s style situation with stagflation thrown in. Wage issues are maybe more important, when they don't keep up with real world cost of living factors.

And as long as tech progress outpaces inflation, cars in many ways still give more for their money than in the past.

berri

You'd think that these days deflation might be much more of a risk than inflation. But I can see the possibility of stagflation in the future similar to the Jimmy Carter years. It wasn't pretty. Remember 16% mortgage rates, high commodity prices and lots of resulting layoffs as demand was choked. Think about it. We have dysfunctional leadership (and now it permeates Congress as well) as well as blatantly partisan Supreme Court Justices (on both sides). The Federal Reserve is playing risky games that have blown up before and no one in Washington understands that when you're heading toward bankruptcy you have to lower spending AND increase revenues. Companies that don't achieve both of these goals seldom successfully survive long term from a BK. So the fed gets caught off guard or flubs. Then the world gets anxious about this mess and starts to pull some of their money and investments. That causes the dollar to fall and interest rates to suddenly start spiking in response. Cost of goods sold jump, commodities prices sky rocket, and layoffs result. The republican's take care of the rich and let it trickle down to the masses isn't going to work solving our fiscal problems. But, the democrats public spending to stimulate the economy isn't going to resolve it either. Yet each party is adamant and letting their hate for each other, and their love of lobbyists and special interests, further their refusal to compromise. Let's put it this way, I may well be wrong, but I'm not aggressively jumping on board this US stock market rally. Treading carefully with smaller buys. I'm increasing the non US portion in my portfolio and still holding a larger than normal cash position right now. I think the reason more people aren't jumping into gold and other hard assets (other than the Fed artificially induced bubbles creeping up yet once again in housing) is that stagflation can hurt you here pretty quickly if businesses and consumer start to loose confidence and cash flows. Gold, et. al. can work real well in periods of high inflation, but stagflation is a potentially much uglier scenario.

fintail

I don't remember the bad old days (I was 3 the year Reagan was elected), but I have seen plenty of paperwork. Laughing at ads bragging about a 14% mortgage or car loan. Eventually, taxes are going to have to rise a little for everyone, and some old breaks allowed to expire. The future will depend on it. Some wasteful spending will also have to end, maybe no more holiday bases and propped up nations.

Not just dysfunctional leadership, a broken system. Two parties has become obsolete and broken, turning to an oligocracy.

But hey, American cars are a lot more competitive these days, especially compared to the dark ages. Maybe currency issues would have more people buying domestic, or at least things built in the US.

Mr_Shiftright

I love history. I can't help but stick my nose into the rise and fall of empires. While the past is NOT the present, there do seem to be patterns---the empire has to retract its ambitious borders because it cannot extend its influence globally as it once did; its army becomes paid mercenaries, or foreigners (its prosperous citizens do not care to fight--a nasty business after all); the governments become more corrupt, with powerful forces literally selling the offices to the highest bidder; the citizenry loses faith in government and starts hiring their own police, fire, water supply, etc; the environment degrades; the infrastructure starts to collapse.

gagrice

While the past is NOT the present, there do seem to be patterns

I agree with your post. What does The USA really have to sell to the rest of the World besides Arms and war? The leaders of technology have proven they can move anywhere and develop the consumer toys. I will say overall the environment in the USA is better than the past. I can remember having difficulty breathing the air in CA in the 1960s.

Mr_Shiftright

Unfortunately, there's no "New World" to sail to once we've screwed up the old one. And outer space is 99.9% lethal to human life.

Best that we patch up what we've got.

gagrice

In the process of patching up the USA we have to put people to work. The workers cannot be expected to carry the non workers on welfare. I don't see any real move in a positive direction to increasing our own workforce. I see the government putting roadblocks faster than the job creators can put up jobs.

Mr_Shiftright

The only jobs being created by job creators are for nannies and gardeners.

The actual problem is that our workforce is decreasing due to too many old people as % of population.

when you couple decreasing workforce with low GDP, you got problems.

this is one reason I'm all for legalizing illegal immigrants, IF they qualify to certain standards.

More workers = increase in economic activity = more spending = more growth.

gagrice

Illegal workers from Mexico soon learn the ins and outs of our screwed up social welfare programs. They are NOT going to add to the taxes. They learn very quickly that the ticket to success is a US born child. They exploit that and states like CA encourage it with bans on E-Verify. If the newly minted legitimate workers were paying income tax on what they make including the welfare benefits, I would agree. Looks more like they are only adding to the crime rate in cities like Los Angeles. I don't see any positives coming out of amnesty. The big job creators find it easier to do business any place but the USA.

Mr_Shiftright

Completely false. Numerous surveys and data collected from health clinics shows that immigrants do not bear children for an average of 3 years after arriving in this country. The "anchor baby" assertion is unfounded in any data and presumed defamatory at best.

xrunner2

I guess this thread has turned into something other than what the title suggests. Should the title change?

lemko

Yeah, but China's more polluted than ever. I saw a newscast Wednesday night about China's environmental problems. It looked like the same programs they were showing about the U.S. over 40 years ago: smokestacks belching plumes of smoke, people wearing facemasks, Beijing enveloped in smog. I recall Pittsburgh was like this back in the day and the streetlights would be on at noon.

However, what I did see through the pollution was a more prosperous China. It made me sad to think that this once was us. Now, all I see is chronic unemployment, crushing poverty, out-of-control crime, and urban blight.

Mr_Shiftright

maybe out your window but it's a big country. Americans still live better than much of the world does.

Economic issues are extremely complex. Recently 4 Nobel prize winners in economics could not agree on what the government should do.

Anyone who offers you some simplistic solution to issues in the global economy is...wrong.

fintail

The "big job creators" want a dumbed down sweatshop standard across the world, while they sit behind armed gates in piles of gold they didn't earn. In terms of history repeating itself, widening socio-economic chasms never end peacefully, either.

Anchor babies aren't unknown among the local H1Bers, too.

fintail

That was once us? The eye-watering social repression? The huge amount of corruption? The fact that if you don't bow down to the party, you stand no chance of success? Those aren't what Americans should pine for. Environmentally and socially, it is no better than the middle of Dickensian times. In 2013.

Wealth is a zero sum game in this brave new world. That relative prosperity is created by capital exported from your backyard.

fintail

If some of the over-ambitious borders/ungrateful dependent states, and Praetorian class (just like in a previous fallen empire) could be reigned in and managed, the current empire might stand a chance. The game isn't over yet, but if egos keep running unchecked in some industries, maybe it is.

It'll be interesting to see the impact when/if cars from an expanding and stubborn new empire are allowed on the shores of the old.

tlong

Completely false. Numerous surveys and data collected from health clinics shows that immigrants do not bear children for an average of 3 years after arriving in this country. The "anchor baby" assertion is unfounded in any data and presumed defamatory at best.

Let me jump in here. I don't have a hugely strong opinion on this issue; I see some truth on both sides. But statistics can be used to sway any opinion. If the immigrants don't bear children for an average of 3 years (I'll assume that's accurate), that DOES NOT drive the conclusion that the anchor baby assertion is unfounded. I suspect there is truth on both sides. Certainly there ARE anchor baby situations. The real question is to what degree.

tlong

It seems pretty clear that most cars are either made here, or made by US-based companies. I'd argue that this is the descending order of "more American" to "less American" cars:

1 - US based company, made wholly in USA
2 - Foreign based company, made wholly in USA
3 - US based company, made in Canada but with many US parts
4 - US based company, made outside USA
5 - Foreign based company, made outside USA

stever

What about a US company, car assembled here with lots of off-shore parts?