Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

fintail

Might depend on the parts and their value, and the value added content of those parts. Not all parts and locations are equal.

Would be fun to rank something like a Chinese-engined old school Equinox or similar. That would rank lower than say a US company car with a Japanese transmission, and maybe no higher than a foreign company using a lot of US parts.

berri

Here's the thing: Despite all the crackpot ramblings in Washington, I think it is really pretty simple. We either increase our birthrates, increase immigration, or both. Otherwise we will continue sliding downhill into the future. Whether to cover entitlements, improve jobs and the economy, or whatever - can't do it without population growth. Look at Japan , my money says Abenomics is a band aid that won't hold. I know there is lots of apparent concern about Mexican immigrants, but the few I've run into are actually hard working family oriented people with values not unlike older generation America which had lots of immigrants. In fact, the only citizens here with non-immigrants in their history are American Indians.

berri

Heck, so much that comes from China seems to contaminate or poison. Best case, they fall apart quickly without hurting you or your environs. I think you'd have to be a fool to jump in and buy their vehicles when they start coming in. Remember the early Hyundai's? And Korea didn't contaminate and poison like China products. China doesn't even respect their own citizens and environment. Talk about a country with corporate suite whores!

tlong

I see that as still better than a US-based company, but assembled overseas.

stever

Then there's the foreign car assembled here with mostly off-shore parts. And let's not forget that some people will tolerate a US car built in Canada but the same brand built in Mexico is a non-starter. The shades of gray are getting finer and finer.

Do I get a bye if I own stock in the foreign car company and spend the dividends here?

tlong

Then there's the foreign car assembled here with mostly off-shore parts. The shades of gray are getting finer and finer.

Probably the point of this entire thread is that the lines are so blurred nowadays - it's hard to see any vehicle as "all foreign" or "all US". Pretty much every vehicle is a shade of grey, some more at one end of the spectrum, and others toward the other end.

For me, I count manufactured here and domestic parts content (even though that could mean Canada, but it's the best we've got) as more important than whether company HQ is here or not. But that's just me, as I know others have a different point of view.

tlong

The termd anchor baby is considered to be, and is meant to be, derogatory. It has little basis in fact.

We can agree to disagree. Even 60 minutes did a segment on Asians who come to the US to specifically have babies that are US citizens. The magnitude of it - I have no idea. But there's no reason to assume it doesn't happen.

Both sides of the political spectrum get all up in arms trying to prove that an issue is black or white. Fact is, the world is mostly grays. No statement that something doesn't happen is likely to be correct. The statement "All illegal immigrants siphon off government services" is just as wrong as "All illegal immigration is good for society".

I wonder what ever happened to the rule of law in this country? It is a felony to be here illegally. If we don't want that to be the case, then we should change the laws. But we should enforce the laws that exist. Today's "enforce-it-only-if-we-feel-like-it" approach to government (in a lot of areas, on both sides of the political spectrum) is IMHO quite dangerous.

Mr_Shiftright

It's actually not a felony to be here illegally. Only after deportation and re-entry would it be a felony. I didn't know that either until a few months ago.

The term 'anchor baby' is derogatory and should be avoided in a public forum.

RE: Chinese cars -- they might stand a chance in the USA if say they were the kinds of cars built under license from other countries overseas. The early Japanese and Korean cars were pretty much like that when they came here.

tlong

It's actually not a felony to be here illegally. Only after deportation and re-entry would it be a felony. I didn't know that either until a few months ago.

I looked it up and you are correct. Illegal presence” as the offense is called, is not a violation of the U.S. criminal code. A person cannot be sent to prison for being here without authorization from immigration authorities. It is, however, a violation of civil immigration laws, for which the federal government can impose civil penalties, namely deportation.

“Improper entry by an alien” as it is called, is a violation of Title 8 of the U.S. criminal code, which makes the act of entering illegally a crime.

re: Chinese cars - I wonder if US citizens will have a great adversity to buying those, should they come to this country, than they did from Japan or Korea? I certainly hope so.

Did the Chinese Equinox engines have any adverse effect? I doubt it, but wonder how many of those owners even knew. They probably thought they were being patriotic!

stever

I wonder if US citizens will have a great adversity to buying those

For the right price, we'll buy Cherys or Tatas or LeCars.

fintail

Luckily, most Chinese engined Equinox were fleet grade fodder anyway, so they didn't have a huge impact.

I couldn't buy a Chinese car and have a clear conscience. It doesn't support anything I agree with. I'll end up with a Goldie Wilson hoverconversion on the fintail before I buy a new Chinese car.

fintail

Come to the Bellevue-Redmond area, and you'll see it, too. Also, the term doesn't necessarily denote anyone who is illegal or necessarily unworthy, just a child born to gain residency.

Nobody has a right to not be offended. PC isn't progress.

gagrice

Better tell the NY Times your concern.

While Texas border hospitals often get “anchor babies” — children of Mexican women who dart across the border to give birth to an American citizen.

The largest group of illegal immigrant patients is pregnant women, hospital figures show. Contrary to popular belief here, their care is not paid for through local taxes. Under a 2002 amendment to federal regulations, the births are covered by federal taxes through Medicaid because their children automatically become American citizens.

In California, hospitals spent at least $1.02 billion last year on health care for illegal immigrants that was not reimbursed by federal or state programs, according to federal government estimates. Hospital officials there said the ailing health care system was being pushed to its limit.

“Emergency rooms and hospital doctors are forced to subsidize the lack of immigration enforcement by the federal government,” said C. Duane Dauner, president of the California Hospital Association. “It amounts to an unfunded mandate for us to treat everybody.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/18/us/18immig.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

tlong

Nobody has a right to not be offended. PC isn't progress.

Free speech pretty much guarantees somebody's ox could be gored. IMHO much better than the alternative.

Claires

Hope that free speech turns to cars sometime soon.

gagrice

Just looking at the 2014 models US content. Most models are less than 2013. GM big sellers Silverado and Sierra are down to 40% US content. They used to be mostly US made. No biggie I gave up on GM PU trucks with my last 2005 model POC.

uplanderguy

Where are they assembled? Where is the engine assembled? Where is the trans assembled? Those are things that are not factored into the percentage you mention. I'm not a truck guy so haven't looked close at one, but am going to today to see that 40%. I can't think of another Chevy that's that low on content.

gagrice

The reason I bring up GM trucks is I was once a big fan. I did own 5 over a 16 year period. Now to content. According to the NHTSA the 2014 Silverado/Sierra are assembled in both US and Mexico. Their content went from 67% on the 2013 models to 40% for the current ones being built. Mexico shows 51%. They could be sold regionally so what you get in Michigan may vary from what you would get in TX. Also the Volt is only 45% US content. Mostly assembled with parts from Japan and Korea. I would expect it to be Chinese built in less than 5 years.
Buick Encore 20% US, 53% K, 17% Chinese
Cadillac SRX 27% US, 67% Mexico another big seller
Spark 8% US, Made in Korea
SS 7% US made in Australia

http://www.nhtsa.gov/Laws+&+Regulations/Part+583+American+Automobile+Labeling+Ac- t+%28AALA%29+Reports

I don't buy that independent report that bases their percentages on who gets the money. I look at who gets the jobs. You want a car that puts more Americans to work buy a Toyota Camry or Avalon. Unless you can afford a Corvette, which is still at 75% for now. Corvette transmissions are now built in Mexico. Real sad part as recent as 2007 the GM PU trucks were 90% US made. Now only 40% US/Canada made. Personally my Mexican built 1998 Suburban was a better built truck than my 2005 GMC Sierra PU truck built in the USA.

uplanderguy

Well yes, the Encore is built in Korea and the SS is from Australia. Is the SS even for sale yet? I don't think so. GM makes a lot more models than those you listed. Personally, I won't reward a D3 company by buying something made in Mexico, and I prefer not to buy 'made in Canada' although I've seen Chevys from Canada on dealer lots for forty years now--nothing new (as Mexico is, comparatively).

dieselone

According to the sticker on my '14 Ram, US/Canadian content is 66%, Mexico is 23%. Final assembly was in Warren MI, engine assembly in Mexico, and transmission from Germany.

After doing a bit of searching, it appears Gagrice is correct that the new '14 Silverados only have about 40% domestic content, most of it from Mexico. Plus, apparently all crew cabs models are assembled built in Mexico.

If you want a pickup with the most domestic content, it would be an F150 or Tundra, both are in the 75% US/Canadian range

imidazol97

>The term 'anchor baby' is derogatory

But if that's offensive in the forums here, then "Murican" used in talking about cars also is offensive and needs to be avoided.

stever

The easy solution is just to get back (and stay) on topic.

Buying American Cars isn't about immigration reform or deep dish pizza.

Plus it's more fun to badger Gary about driving a Bratislava Bug.

gagrice

It looks like the Ram will be more US content when they get the transmission factory up and running. Currently the 8 speed in your Ram is from the ZF factory in Germany. C has licensed that for manufacture in USA. The diesel version will have the engine built in Italy. No info yet on the 2014 F150.

What gripes me is the fact that companies like GM and GE use the largesse of the US tax payer to set up foreign manufacturing plants. With the blessing of this administration. GE took our $25 million gift and built a solar panel factory in China. Then cancelled the one in Colorado and closed one in the NE.

Just two years after picking Aurora, Colo., over the Capital Region for a mega solar panel fabrication plant, General Electric Co. has dumped the business.

http://www.timesunion.com/business/article/GE-solar-plant-dead-4715627.php

The Fairfield, Conn.-based company told the Dow Jones Clean Technology Insight that silicon panel manufacturing at its facility in Delaware, will stop in January.

GE will shutter the factory all together by June. The factory can produce 34 megawatts of solar panels per year and employs 82 people. GE plans to layoff the workers with severance packages.

http://www.greentechmedia.com/green-light/post/ge-to-close-u.s.-solar-panel-fact- ory

dieselone

"Currently the 8 speed in your Ram is from the ZF factory in Germany. C has licensed that for manufacture in USA. The diesel version will have the engine built in Italy. No info yet on the 2014 F150. "

The 6 cylinder Ram uses a lighter duty version of the ZF 8 speed and I believe it's currently built in the states.

gagrice

My Touareg and its ugly sister the Porsche Cayenne are very Global. Engine from Hungary, transmission from Germany, built in Slovakia. And at least twice the vehicle my Sequoia was. And I paid about the same in 2007 for the Sequoia. I get total maintenance for 48 months or 48k miles. Including one complete brake job if needed. How many D3 vehicles get free service? The Germans are setting the standards that the US automakers need to pay attention to.

gagrice

Correction:
8 speed Touareg Transmission is from Japan. With 25% German content.

stever

Funny how the world keeps shrinking and you got a very tribal car.

Mr_Shiftright

Sure Americans will buy Chinese cars by the boatload if the price is right, and if they manage to maintain even a mediocre reputation, Americans will buy more of them...if the price is still right.

stever

If Walmart ever gets the go-ahead to sell cars, you can really kiss Detroit goodbye.

Mr_Shiftright

I suppose even Americans have their limits, and probably wouldn't buy a car from the Taliban, Iran, or the Shining Path Guerrillas, but China---no problem!

I've only had limited experience with Chinese-made motorcycles, and it wasn't pretty.

stever

On the other hand, I think Lenovo currently makes the best consumer computers.

Chery is also a multinational (like Lenovo, and like GM and Ford and Chrysler). They ship a lot of "kit cars" but their "name" association is their tie-in with Jaguar Land Rover.

gagrice

I think Lenovo currently makes the best consumer computers.

Aren't they the old IBM Think pad? Lots of choices. I am ready to get a new laptop for travel. My Dell Inspiron XPS is ancient still running my favorite WinXP Pro. Just too heavy and soon to be dumped for updates by MS. My research has led me to the Samsung Ultra books. Brighter display than the Apple MacBook pro with Retina. The Ativ Book 9 Plus laptop has 3200x1800 13.3 inch touch screen. Fastest Intel processor and boot time of 5.9 seconds. All in a 3 lb package. Runs Win8.1 so I can keep my MS Office software. If I ever get a Smartphone it will be a Samsung. And they have builtin software to tie the two together. That is my biggest issue with my Android tablet. Sharing my Outlook data.

uplanderguy

The horrible truth, confirmed by my visit to the nearest Chevy dealer today: U.S./Canadian parts content on every one I looked at was 40%. "Major source of parts, Mexico, 51%". They had about twenty trucks; all were four-doors and most were 4WD. I looked at one 4WD 2-door Work Truck and five others, all four-doors, one 2WD, the rest 4WD. I couldn't tell any pattern; two of six I looked at were built in Silao, Mexico; four of six I looked at were built in Roanoke, Indiana. I believe the Mexican vehicles were probably earlier units, but don't know. On all six, the sticker said "Engine Source of Origin United States" and "Transmission Source of Origin United States". That isn't included in the parts content.

I swung quickly into a Toyota dealer (felt weird to me, LOL) and looked at two Tundras. Neither had any content information on their sticker, which surprised me. For some reason, I thought that was required. Both were built in San Antonio, Texas. If 75% is the number, one would think Toyota would promote that on the window sticker. Funny thing too, there was a lot of blank white space on the stickers.

The Ford dealer had all F-150's inside a closed, fenced-in area.

I'm unhappy with that much Mexican content in a Silverado, even with the final assembly, engine, and trans assembly done in the 'States. I don't know where those things are done in the other-make trucks.

Another conclusion I got today--I think the '13 Silverado is better-looking than the '14. I never liked the wide-open wheelwells in the rear of the '13 and older Silverados though--I'd have to undercoat flat black in there.

scwmcan

Just to bring up a point, the us/ Canadian content will be going up, ( learned this in training, full disclosure I started work as a temporary employee for the GM St. Catharines power train plant as of two weeks ago, no work on the line yet, just lots of training). There are three plants that will be making engines for the GM trucks, Mexico, Towendaga NY( sorry I know that's spelt wrong but hopefully close enough for you to get the idea) and the St. Catharines plant here in Canada, the first plant up and fully operational was Mexico, the second to start building them was NY, and the third is St. Catharines, NY is just getting into full production now, and St. Catharines will be up with two shifts and full production by the end of Feb 2014, this is why the US and Canadian Content went down, with both us and Canadian pants in full production the percentage should go up. BTW this is the first time in 28 years they have hired people at the St. Catharines plant, also in the training they go to great lengths to admit that things were very different quality, and work wise even 5 years ago, I can't say the same is true in every last but here at least they are truly emphasizing quality as the most important thing we can do ( the standardized training is supposed to be the same everywhere, but who knows for sure). This may help explain the improvements in quality being noticed recently in GM products.

Edit: finished reading your post, as I didn't at first, all I can say is somewhat surprised content is that ow with the engine and transmission both from the Staes. Bummer.

gagrice

Glad to hear you got a job up there. Will you be in the CAW union? I would imagine the content can change as needed by the manufacturer. They send a list to the Feds and that is what is put out to the public. Each vehicle should be marked as to content. I am happy to hear GM is focusing on quality over quantity. As mentioned I only owned GM Trucks from 1988 until 2005. My 1988, 1993 and 1996 GM 4x4 3/4 ton extended cabs were wonderful trucks to drive and own. I bought them in Seattle and drove them to Alaska. When ready to buy new I sold in AK and did very well getting much of my money back. The 93 & 96 were the best vehicles I have driven on ice and snow. I think the strike in 1998 crippled GM and they never recovered their former truck building prowess. Maybe they will in the future. Not sure why Ford kicks their butt. Maybe better looking.

fintail

The price will have to be pretty cheap. Like you, I have seen Chinese bikes and scooters, and they are downright awful, throwaway products to the nth degree. The cars will be better - as the Chinese auto industry now is more or less a spinoff of western ventures, in other words, to set up shop there, you have to let the locals steal your IP. Short term unsustainable profits without thought of long term consequences, it could be the official credo of the MBA.

I wonder if these things end up on American shores, if there would be ad campaigns against them, as that regime is an easy target.

fintail

Wal Mart selling Chinese cars to westerners who are able to get an ever smaller piece of the pie (private sector anyway) - if that isn't a sign of oligarchic socio-economic devolution, I don't know what is. And no doubt some one world types would love it.

Some fun attack ads would come of it. Even now, I'd say buying a Chinese car might not be much different than buying a German car in the late 30s, or a Russian car in the 50s-60s. Supporting a regime that isn't exactly trading in human progress.

Mr_Shiftright

You just don't appreciate the efficiencies of a dictatorship.

fintail

The trains run on time, anyway!

Unless of course like in China, corrupt connected types get the contracts, inhale the money, then flee to the west where treacherous governments let them in as "investors", then the trains might not run at all.

gagrice

You just don't appreciate the efficiencies of a dictatorship.

You mean like our Federal Government??

I don't see any problem selling Chinese made cars. People plunk down $100 plus a month for a Chinese made iPhone. Then when a new one comes out 6 months later they pay the fine and buy another. Cars are about the last thing left made partially in the USA. With chicken and pig parts coming to US from China, what will be left for US to produce? Can't drink any juice product now as it is mostly from China. Thank you CA for shutting off the water to the food producers.

Mr_Shiftright

LOL! Were you dragged off into the night and shot again?

gagrice

I might be after the NSA reads my posts. ;-)

tlong

Uplander, thanks for the interesting information. A few comments:

1- Are you sure about engine/tranny not included in domestic parts numbers? That doesn't make any sense to me, given that those are the guts of the vehicle. Is there a link that substantiates this?
2 - I also thought the parts content was required on the sticker

Mr_Shiftright

Well you drive a foreign car--you're suspect.

stever

Yep, both my lappys are ThinkPads. The newer one can go 10 hours on a charge.

Scwmcan, congrats on the new GM gig (and we'll look forward to some inside scoop. )

gagrice

I have a couple old ThinkPads & a Dell Inspiron 7000 in my closet. I used to get them out and charge them up for grins. I haven't done it for a couple years. I should just trash them. All running Win98. I want a laptop in the 3 lb range with an Intel i7 or faster processor. I am intrigued with the QHD displays that compete with the Apple Retina display. Want to bet I don't find anything made in the USA? Or even designed here anymore.

I have to wonder who designed the NAV/Infotainment center in the VW Touareg. It is very impressive. Except as usual the Navteq mapping is way behind the curve. Far better than the Sequoia, far less than Google maps. Don't trust the route selection. Wife still carries her stack of AAA maps, thankfully. We found it best with our traveling the back roads to load in the next town and then do the same or it will take you way out of the way to get back on the Interstates.

stever

You may be able to find a school or non-profit to donate them to; probably have years of use left for email and surfing at least. Mine's an X230, 3.39 pounds. Not sure what model has now replaced it. A smaller screen is my preference for lugging around and that helps the weight.

Have you priced update disks for the factory nav yet?

And check for a shortest/fastest route option if you haven't already. On the Garmins, the shortest (distance) route usually avoids the freeways.

Hard to say who makes your unit (RNS 850?). May be VDO Continental, Blaupunkt or Technisat or some other outfit (my-gti.com).

Looks like plenty of hacks available.

gagrice

Have you priced update disks for the factory nav yet?

Only available as a download from dealer. It is free during the first 3 years. I have the latest that is at least 3 years old. That was my complaint with NavTeq in the past. It is the RNS 850 same as the new JGC has. Better than the BMW or Mercedes. Just far from perfect. One freeway is missing that is at least 3 years old. We ran into a couple places on the trip where we were in la la land. The entertainment with 80 gb hard drive makes up for it. Along with SiriusXM traffic. I did buy another year of SiriusXM. They gave me a $96 rate. Not sure it is worth it.

uplanderguy

"The trains run on time, anyway! "

When we were in Italy on vacation in 2010, our tour guide said older folks there remember Mussolini fondly for that quality.

We had to laugh...she couldn't even say Hitler's name...referred to him as "Mussolini's buddy from Austria"! LOL

uplanderguy

"I suppose even Americans have their limits, and probably wouldn't buy a car from the Taliban, Iran, or the Shining Path Guerrillas, but China---no problem!"

Give 'em twenty or thirty years, and I'm sure they'd buy a car from the Taliban or Iran.