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Finally, the LExus ES350 is certainly a far better car in almost every respect.
With the possible exception of the center stack/dash - how could you possibly make such a statement? The MKS looks better, is bigger, seems to handle better, has more amenities, similar acceleration.......what am I missing?
And just because you agree with TTACs reviews just proves that you're both biased, not that TTAC is right.
What? What is my bias? Against Ford/Lincon? I own 4 of them. And come on, dont start on me. It's just an opinion. Maybe we'll see a comparo someday and can add that to our fodder. For now ...
Convince anybody I mean anybody that a Lincoln is better than a Lexus and I'll eat my getrag. Looks is of course too subjective to count, but if u do then it's at best a wash outside and the interior of just about any Lexus is heads above most competitors. Dash - ditto. Mileage - lexus. Reliability - lexus. fit/finish (have you ever compared the paint on a lexus to a Lincoln?) - lexus . seems to handle better? - says who? The guys you dont like? More amenities? doubt it. xcept for the hidden keypad, what ...
Come on, Lincoln doesnt even TRY to compete with Lexus anymore, remember? Buick is the target, and soon Hyundai.
I hope you are right. I hope that Lincoln gets a performance oriented rwd modern platform. I hope the style is based on the MKR. Through past history, Lincolns vehicles have been based on its Ford cousins that is why I think that Lincoln won't be seeing a rwd car again. Also the price of such a vehicle would put it into at least the mid price luxury performance categorie when Lincoln is trying to compete with Buick.
Lincoln was competing with Buick when Jaguar was still around. There is a lot of room at the top for Lincoln to grow into IF they get the proper platforms.
As for Lincolns being based on Fords, that's not always true. Remember the LS?
The ES350 is a MUCH smaller car than the MKS, so of course it gets better mileage. The MKS is bigger. If you think the ES350 looks better then you need glasses. I'll do a better comparison for you when I have more time.
Jeyhoe, here is where Lincoln finally has a competitive advantage. For about the same money as a little ES350, buyers can get a better equipped, quieter and better handling full-sized car. The MKS will match and often exceed the Lexus point by point and feature by feature. I have little doubt that the fit/finish and paint quality will be comparable, too. Ford products have made leaps and bounds in that area in the past 2 or 3 years.
Of course, I have been saying the same thing about a Taurus versus a Camry and the the Camry outsells the Taurus 8 to 1. The difference here is that the MKS is a genuinely good looking car - much better in person than in the pictures.
The interior seems to be hit or miss with the reviewers. That's sure better than all negative. I think it's better than any previous Lincolns but could be better yet.
My problem with all of these reviews is it seems like they're just looking for bad things to say about it. They even make super quiet sound like a bad thing (rigor mortis???).
It has style, tons of room, reasonable performance, all the gadgets you'd ever want and it's priced competitively. What's so bad about that?
I'd like to see upgraded gauges and center stack, an optional 300 hp 3.7L with Direct Injection (but keep the current 3.7L) plus the EB 3.5L with performance suspension.
Yeah, that's 2 reviews that like the interior. One loved it all, the other said keep eyes straight up. I suppose I should be quiet on the interior from here on til I see it in person.
The first drive though didnt really tell me anything at all about the car and how it performs. Basically anothe "What IS Lincoln anyway" diatribe. Expect more of those.
Motor Trend has a first drive test on their site. I am not providing a link because I am not sure what Edmunds rules are on that.
Motor Trend loves the interior, too. Jeyhoe, maybe you and I just have more sophisticated tastes - or maybe we are just crusty old farts who are never quite satisfied.
All of the reviews have been more positive than I expected. You are right about the "What IS Lincoln anyway" diatribes.
Great point, jeyhoe. In all of the reviews the first few paragraphs talk nothing about the car. It's kind of frustrating, and makes you wondering if the review is being written objectively with the reviewer focusing so much on the background. I can see it swaying a review good (better than other recent Lincolns) or bad (crap from a confused brand), but either way, it seems to muddy the review.
Hopefully for Lincoln's sake, the early versions you sat in had pre-production materials. I can see that accounting for the descrepancy, but who knows.
My thinking is that next year's model will have a 300hp direct injection 3.7, and the ecoboost will put out between 360 and 370hp. I think all the talk about 340hp is sandbagging, when they first announced it they were saying 415hp. Now they realize that it is better to underestimate and overdeliver than the other way around. Direct injection makes too much sense for both performance and fuel economy for even Lincoln to neglect it for too long. I'd rather get 19-27mpg and pay 20 cents more per gallon for premium fuel, than 16-23 on regular.
Either way, I'll test drive the car soon, but will wait until next year to buy one to see which way they go with the ecoboost.
Yeah, the Bruins haven't done a whole lot since "#4 - Bobby Orr" flew around the Garden.
My hockey fan status is on the low side, though I do attend one or two San Jose Sharks games a year and watched some of their playoff games this year on the tube.
One thing I noticed in spades was that the kind of hockey the Red Wings and Penguins were playing in the finals was an order of magnitude above he Sharks and the rest who were eliminated. behind-the-back passes, spinning into break-aways, beautiful passing and unbelieveable goaltending. If more players and teams bould execute the way these guys do, hockey would be much more exciting to watch.
You weren't paying attention to the concept - that was 415 hp on E85, not gasoline, and it was a non-running concept - meaning they didn't have to worry about whether the transmission could handle that much power. Expect 340-350.
The only reason we don't have DI now is they simply ran out of time and resources in engine development. Whether it will be ready by itself next year is an open question.
Does anyone know if the rear seats fold flat like they do on the Taurus and Sable? I find it strange that this has not been mentioned before anywhere I can find. My local dealer did not even know the answer to this when I last asked.
Unfortunately they do not fold. According to one of the reps at one of the dealer previews, there are 2 reasons. First is better NVH control which seems obvious. The other is that there are tougher crash regulations on cargo intrusion into the passenger compartment on the way (within the MKS' current lifecycle) and it's much harder to accomodate that with a folding rear seat. The rep thought that most vehicles would be eliminating the folding rear seat as a result within the next 2-3 years. It does seem to make sense and if so expect the new Taurus to do away with it also. Please note this was told to a friend of mine and not to me personally.
I know it was on E85. Perhaps I should have made my point more clearly. My point was that once Ford threw out that 415 number it was out there, you can't take it back, even if you point out the "small print." Now they have backed way off that number down to 340hp. If you take into account the fact that the DI version of 3.7 will most likely put out at least 300hp, then 340 is not a big enough difference to justify the extra cost of the ecoboost. Its the same problem Cadillac is running into with the STS. The 3.6 makes 305hp, the northstar V8 makes 320, no one is going to shell out an extra 10K for 15 horses. That's why Infiniti kept the M35 at 280hp despite the fact that the G35 was putting out 303. The M45 was only putting out 340hp so they couldn't bump up the M35 without cannibalizing sales from the M45.
If Lincoln puts a DI 3.7 in the MKS next year the ecoboost engine will have to put out at least 350 if not 360hp to justify the difference in cost. Besides 350hp for a bi-turbo 3.5L engine is just about the minimum. If a modern 6 speed transmission can not handle 370hp then that is an engineering debacle. The 6-speed ZF in the Jaguar XF and XJ easily handles the 420hp the supercharged engine puts out.
The bottom line is that you might be right about the 340-350 number, but if that is the case then we probably won't see a DI version of the 3.7 next year. In any event, its a turbo, so I'm sure there will be a way to "chip" it to get more hp out of it.
If a modern 6 speed transmission can not handle 370hp then that is an engineering debacle. The 6-speed ZF in the Jaguar XF and XJ easily handles the 420hp the supercharged engine puts out.
Ummm.....can you say FWD vs RWD? The jag uses a traditional RWD tranny. FWD trannies are much smaller and there aren't many that can handle 350 hp, AWD or not.
Earlier today I heard the DI 3.7L won't be available for 2 more years. That would make the 340-350 hp EB more of an upgrade. Maybe it will be upgraded at the same time to 375 hp.
Oh, and speaking of the Jag XF, upon which an LS-follow-on COULD have been based, the XF won the comparo in Motor trend in July issue against BMW 550i, Mercedes E550 and Lexus 460. The previous gen S-Type never won anything. Apparently Ford and Jaguar built the REAL deal this time. Oh, what could have been if Lincoln had also continued the LS-DNA, but we must say TATA to any possible awards like that for Lincoln now.
Also - Saw a MKS ad on TV last night. About 15 seconds long. Made the car look mighty nice. And answers the question what the 'S' stands for. Apparently it stands for 'Starship'.
I was quite surprised on Saturday when I opened a tasteful, engraved piece of stationary we received in the mail. Expecting another wedding or baby shower invitation, I was instead reading a beautifully printed invitation to attend a Special Unveiling Reception for the new Lincoln MKS on Thursday, June 19 at my local Lincoln/Mercury dealer here in Central Florida.
It's a very impressive marketing tactic. We have already RSVP'd that we will attend (my 12 year old can hardly wait....he loves our MKX and is very excited about the new MKS) . I will post some feedback after the reception.
Yeah yeah, globalization. Yeah yeah, tilting at windmills. Still, cant help feeling this way. A once great country is going down the tubes. Cars today are specified by Nanci Pelosi, then designed and usually built in a foreign country.
There are at least a half-dozen driving reports on the web now for the MKS. There has been quite a bit of consistency in the reporting, too. The car is very quiet, the interior is a hit, it handles better than expected, and the performance is pretty decent. The exterior looks pretty imposing and impressive in person. Most have mentioned that the 20" wheels are a bit harsh and noisy and conclude the 19s might be a better choice. Only one reporter agreed with me that the seat bottoms are a bit short. There has been hardly any carping about the center stack that I criticized after my encounter with a show car. The sound system and general technogadgets are first rate. Fit and finish get high marks.
I was interested in owning one of these prior to all the reports and I have read nothing that would change my mind. Lincoln apparently sees the STS and GS as their competition. Both are excellent cars but neither one sells very well. I see the MKS as a bigger and better alternative to the ES 350 but I guess the MKZ will be upgraded to compete with that.
There will not be one available in my area for me to drive until July 1. Many of you will have an earlier opportunity so please share your experiences.
Agreed with your report on the MKS. I am very impressed with vehicle and I see I was not alone in my thoughts of it. I went to the unveiling of it at my dealership yesterday. They made it a gala event to where there was food, drink, and a live band. They had two MKS (the tuxedo black and the red) vehicles there. There was a good group of people there and many were impressed with the vehicle. However, I did notice that my sales rep was looking a little confused.
I asked him was there a problem or was he not feeling well. He told me that he had several people come up to him and cancel their order. Shocked I asked why thinking they were going to wait for the eco-boost engine next year. He said it was the gas prices. Many are afraid that the price will hit between 5-6 bucks a gallon before any relief was in sight.
I felt sorry for him, I tried to console him a little indicating that I do not plan on canceling mine at this time. I did tell him also that things might turn around in a couple of months when the summer is over and the rebates come it. He estimates leasing between $550-$650 per month for 36 months, but he could not tell me what was the down payment at time of lease. Mine will not be in till the September/October time frame, which is ok with me. The gas mileage is not great but it seems consistent for a car in this category. I guest the statement timing is everything really applies here.
There are definitely some negative things going on that could impact sales of this type of car. High gas prices and many have lost some significant $$ on paper in the market during the past year. For some, the thought of a luxury car at this time might not make sense.
I could see some sales incentives on this car before long. I will likely wait until September or October to place my order - or even wait until spring.
At the same time, the MKS is not that adage kind of car. Lincoln has been known for heavily discounted luxury, not BMW status. The mpg did not come out all that well for the 3.7, so some potential buyers will look at that and at gas prices and say to themselves it may be wiser to consider other options. No fault of the MKS per se that circumstances are what they are.
I think it has more to do with the economy in general and spending that much money rather than fuel economy. Unless you're going to a 4 cylinder Milan or Focus you're not going to get a noticeable fuel economy savings.
Perhaps. But the person who buys a Lincoln is more likely to be affected by the economy in general than the person who buys a BMW. Different audiences.
Maybe, but I'd be willing to bet that more BMW owners than Lincoln owners are "stretched to the hilt" with huge lease payments and mortgages on huge houses trying to keep up with the "in" crowd.
More likely to be true for Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari, Jag owners than BMW owners.
There are very high percentages of houses for sale in my area in the "elite" subdivisions - golf course, $600K-$1M, $2M, etc. whereas the mid priced houses ($200K to $500K or so) just have normal turnover rates.
I'm paying $600 on a 24 mo. lease with my '07 DTS ($45k msrp with $4k out of pocket). I'll be out of it in March of '09. Seems L/M is going to have to get some better lease rates for the MKS, especially where a 24 mo. lease is concerned. Right now, it seems the best deal is the MB E350 at $565/mo for 27 mos.
IF you pay an extra $3K up front (in addition to first/last payments and fees) for a 27 month lease that works out to an extra $125/month. Lease payments can be deceiving depending on the terms.
From the owner's guide I downloaded (page 80 on the pdf version), it appears that instantaneous fuel economy ONLY displays as a bar graph!!!!!!! This is SO useless. I don't need a stupid bar graph. What I want is a numerical display!!! So, now what I have to do is continually reset the average fuel economy whenever I want to see this number. Oh, and of course remember to look quick as soon as I press the reset button. And just how many keystrokes do I need to press to get to the reset button.
Don't other cars do a better job of showing this. I once had a 1992 Mercury sable with the electronic dash that DID show instantaneous fuel economy. I loved it. I left it up all the time.
Sorry I don't have the link handy for the owner's guide. I easily found it by searching on Google.
Any comments on this when people take their first test drives?
A bar graph should be much easier to read while driving than numbers. The point is to keep the bar high regardless of the actual numbers. I've had a couple of explorers in the past with instant mpg and I used it a few times and then forgot about it.
It's much more useful to reset your avg MPG for a short trip and check the average. It wouldn't hurt to have both, though.
I find the instantaneous number on my Suzuki very useful. It has retrained me in driving to keep the number (and therefore mpg) high. I look at it about as much as I do the speedometer. Wouldn't buy another car without one.
I would suggest to Alan (should he ask me, ahem....) to make Mercury the new Ford version of Scion - 2 or 3 small starter cars, that they could bring over from other parts of the world, and sell under the Mercury brand. Only problem would be, those customers won't cross shop a Lincoln, so the dealer scenerio would be wierd, unless Mom and Dad bought an MKS while Jr. got the little Mercury version of the Ford Fiesta or something.....
Has anybody seen one of these on the dirt yet? I'm hearing they're around, but MY dealer has none. :confuse:
Nvbanker, where the heck have you been? Haven't heard from you in months on the Lincoln forums!
There are no MKSs in Minneapolis, yet. I have been invited to a dealer event on July 3rd where I can drive one but posters in other parts of the country have already attended similar events. I did a search on Autotrader and found that Chicago dealers apparently have them in stock - or so says the website.
There has been that one good ad on TV but I haven't even heard an official launch date for the MKS, yet. As soon as you check one out, I will be interested in your thoughts. Based on my experience with the 2008 Taurus and what I have read so far about the MKS, I am pretty sure I am going to order one later this summer - unless I decide to wait for the Ecoboost version.
Say I bring my Lincoln for service. Now what, I have to go to stay in line with all other Ford owners? I will get the same level of service as Ford owners? Lincoln is not supposed to be Ford’s Scion, for sure. Even Saturn has its own dealerships for Gd’s sake. Why would I bother to buy Lincoln? Buying Buick (given that Buick gets serious about making cars) I do not have to share my experience with Chevrolet owners.
Amen to that, Brother...... The service at my Lincoln dealership is light years ahead of service at my Ford dealer. I have taken my Fords to the Lincoln store for service for years!
Hey, brucelinc: I've been gone for 2 years, since I let my Navigator go back on lease return, and acquired my Lexus LS430 - After 2 years with the Lexus, which IS an excellent car, as ARM stated, I'm very interested in this MKS, to see if I may want to come back. The LS430 is a wonderful Toyota, but it is after all, a Toyota, and while dependability is a given, and quality is undisputed, they are the LEAST FUN CARS TO DRIVE ON THE PLANET!! If this MKS performs like I think it may, I could be back at Lincoln pretty easily. I have always liked the feel of a Lincoln, er, well at least until 2005 when I felt they had nothing for me.
I guess you and the designing people at Ford think the same. For me, I will NEVER use the bar graphs. I find a number EASIER and much more meaningful to read at a glance that a bar graph. I am not trying to be ugly. I am just aggravated that the data was available to Ford and they chose to do something else with it. Let me ask you. Do you really prefer the bar graph or are you just taking up for Ford? Again, I am not trying to be ugly. I am just very very disappointed.
Well I am seriously considering moving to Saturn (or Buick if they come up with something decent) next time. It seems that Ford messed up with definition of American luxury. Unless they seriously improve Milan. But even after that the thought that I have go to crazy Ford dealership to service car makes me think twice about buying Ford products.
BTW at Hayward, CA FML they still have separate showroom for Lincoln/Mercury where I went to test drive Milan. And sales guy was very pleasant and decent man - almost like at Saturn.
Comments
With the possible exception of the center stack/dash - how could you possibly make such a statement? The MKS looks better, is bigger, seems to handle better, has more amenities, similar acceleration.......what am I missing?
And just because you agree with TTACs reviews just proves that you're both biased, not that TTAC is right.
Convince anybody I mean anybody that a Lincoln is better than a Lexus and I'll eat my getrag. Looks is of course too subjective to count, but if u do then it's at best a wash outside and the interior of just about any Lexus is heads above most competitors. Dash - ditto. Mileage - lexus. Reliability - lexus. fit/finish (have you ever compared the paint on a lexus to a Lincoln?) - lexus . seems to handle better? - says who? The guys you dont like? More amenities? doubt it. xcept for the hidden keypad, what ...
Come on, Lincoln doesnt even TRY to compete with Lexus anymore, remember? Buick is the target, and soon Hyundai.
As for Lincolns being based on Fords, that's not always true. Remember the LS?
Pretty fair review, IMO. They sure like the interior better than I expected.
Of course, I have been saying the same thing about a Taurus versus a Camry and the the Camry outsells the Taurus 8 to 1. The difference here is that the MKS is a genuinely good looking car - much better in person than in the pictures.
My problem with all of these reviews is it seems like they're just looking for bad things to say about it. They even make super quiet sound like a bad thing (rigor mortis???).
It has style, tons of room, reasonable performance, all the gadgets you'd ever want and it's priced competitively. What's so bad about that?
I'd like to see upgraded gauges and center stack, an optional 300 hp 3.7L with Direct Injection (but keep the current 3.7L) plus the EB 3.5L with performance suspension.
The first drive though didnt really tell me anything at all about the car and how it performs. Basically anothe "What IS Lincoln anyway" diatribe. Expect more of those.
Motor Trend loves the interior, too. Jeyhoe, maybe you and I just have more sophisticated tastes - or maybe we are just crusty old farts who are never quite satisfied.
All of the reviews have been more positive than I expected. You are right about the "What IS Lincoln anyway" diatribes.
Either way, I'll test drive the car soon, but will wait until next year to buy one to see which way they go with the ecoboost.
It certainly seems like they did here in Boston.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXSMczXUnzs
It focuses on all the internal technology, a lot of which is REALLY impressive.
I'm just a few miles from this. Wish I could have gone to see it.
My hockey fan status is on the low side, though I do attend one or two San Jose Sharks games a year and watched some of their playoff games this year on the tube.
One thing I noticed in spades was that the kind of hockey the Red Wings and Penguins were playing in the finals was an order of magnitude above he Sharks and the rest who were eliminated. behind-the-back passes, spinning into break-aways, beautiful passing and unbelieveable goaltending. If more players and teams bould execute the way these guys do, hockey would be much more exciting to watch.
And if the MKS ...
The only reason we don't have DI now is they simply ran out of time and resources in engine development. Whether it will be ready by itself next year is an open question.
The review mostly focuses on the driving experience, and mentions that Lincoln intends this vehicle to be a STS, Lexus GS competitor.
Also, it has the best photo gallery of a production MKS I've seen so far.
If Lincoln puts a DI 3.7 in the MKS next year the ecoboost engine will have to put out at least 350 if not 360hp to justify the difference in cost. Besides 350hp for a bi-turbo 3.5L engine is just about the minimum. If a modern 6 speed transmission can not handle 370hp then that is an engineering debacle. The 6-speed ZF in the Jaguar XF and XJ easily handles the 420hp the supercharged engine puts out.
The bottom line is that you might be right about the 340-350 number, but if that is the case then we probably won't see a DI version of the 3.7 next year. In any event, its a turbo, so I'm sure there will be a way to "chip" it to get more hp out of it.
Ummm.....can you say FWD vs RWD? The jag uses a traditional RWD tranny. FWD trannies are much smaller and there aren't many that can handle 350 hp, AWD or not.
Earlier today I heard the DI 3.7L won't be available for 2 more years. That would make the 340-350 hp EB more of an upgrade. Maybe it will be upgraded at the same time to 375 hp.
Also - Saw a MKS ad on TV last night. About 15 seconds long. Made the car look mighty nice. And answers the question what the 'S' stands for. Apparently it stands for 'Starship'.
It's a very impressive marketing tactic. We have already RSVP'd that we will attend (my 12 year old can hardly wait....he loves our MKX and is very excited about the new MKS) . I will post some feedback after the reception.
I'm tilting at those windmills with you.
I was interested in owning one of these prior to all the reports and I have read nothing that would change my mind. Lincoln apparently sees the STS and GS as their competition. Both are excellent cars but neither one sells very well. I see the MKS as a bigger and better alternative to the ES 350 but I guess the MKZ will be upgraded to compete with that.
There will not be one available in my area for me to drive until July 1. Many of you will have an earlier opportunity so please share your experiences.
I asked him was there a problem or was he not feeling well. He told me that he had several people come up to him and cancel their order. Shocked I asked why thinking they were going to wait for the eco-boost engine next year. He said it was the gas prices. Many are afraid that the price will hit between 5-6 bucks a gallon before any relief was in sight.
I felt sorry for him, I tried to console him a little indicating that I do not plan on canceling mine at this time. I did tell him also that things might turn around in a couple of months when the summer is over and the rebates come it. He estimates leasing between $550-$650 per month for 36 months, but he could not tell me what was the down payment at time of lease. Mine will not be in till the September/October time frame, which is ok with me. The gas mileage is not great but it seems consistent for a car in this category. I guest the statement timing is everything really applies here.
I could see some sales incentives on this car before long. I will likely wait until September or October to place my order - or even wait until spring.
More likely to be true for Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari, Jag owners than BMW owners.
There are very high percentages of houses for sale in my area in the "elite" subdivisions - golf course, $600K-$1M, $2M, etc. whereas the mid priced houses ($200K to $500K or so) just have normal turnover rates.
IF you pay an extra $3K up front (in addition to first/last payments and fees) for a 27 month lease that works out to an extra $125/month. Lease payments can be deceiving depending on the terms.
What is the current MKS lease cost?
Don't other cars do a better job of showing this. I once had a 1992 Mercury sable with the electronic dash that DID show instantaneous fuel economy. I loved it. I left it up all the time.
Sorry I don't have the link handy for the owner's guide. I easily found it by searching on Google.
Any comments on this when people take their first test drives?
It's much more useful to reset your avg MPG for a short trip and check the average. It wouldn't hurt to have both, though.
Here's the link for owner's guides:
https://www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/owners_manuals/default.asp
Has anybody seen one of these on the dirt yet? I'm hearing they're around, but MY dealer has none. :confuse:
There are no MKSs in Minneapolis, yet. I have been invited to a dealer event on July 3rd where I can drive one but posters in other parts of the country have already attended similar events. I did a search on Autotrader and found that Chicago dealers apparently have them in stock - or so says the website.
There has been that one good ad on TV but I haven't even heard an official launch date for the MKS, yet. As soon as you check one out, I will be interested in your thoughts. Based on my experience with the 2008 Taurus and what I have read so far about the MKS, I am pretty sure I am going to order one later this summer - unless I decide to wait for the Ecoboost version.
Amen to that, Brother...... The service at my Lincoln dealership is light years ahead of service at my Ford dealer. I have taken my Fords to the Lincoln store for service for years!
BTW at Hayward, CA FML they still have separate showroom for Lincoln/Mercury where I went to test drive Milan. And sales guy was very pleasant and decent man - almost like at Saturn.