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Yes to both, Jeyhoe. By the way, I enjoy reading your posts and always have! If I disagree or even purposely take some of what you say out of context, it is nothing personal. I think you know by now that I have a sense of humor. My only point is that sometimes I think we over-react. If an Explorer fits the needs of a family for hauling or towing or whatever, and they suddenly trade it for a Prius, they must not have needed an Explorer very badly in the first place.
I do not intend to quit living my life just because gas is expensive. I might cut back on a few other things to help compensate but I like cars too much to give up and drive a bleepbox just because I might save a few bucks a year.
It has TWO trip computers, just like every other Ford product. You should know better than to listen to Edmunds auto reviewers. Not sure about the external temp - didn't see it in the OM.
If you're just saying that some people won't be able or willing to spend $3K/year on a new 20 mpg vehicle then I'd agree - SOME people won't. But I'm sure you have Navigator owners who are currently getting 15 mpg who would gladly trade for a 20 mpg MKS - they'll be SAVING $1500/yr in fuel costs while getting even more luxury features. So it works both ways.
The only 30 mpg vehicles (combined) I know of are very small 4 cylinder cars without any luxury features. Do you really think people would buy a Corolla instead of a MKS?
The CTS is not a direct MKS competitor - it's MUCH smaller, that's why I used the DTS. The point is that from a FE standpoint the MKS is actually better than previous Lincoln vehicles and most of the direct competition. The entire segment (large luxury sedans) might take a hit but there's no reason the MKS would take more of a hit than the others.
The CTS is a foot shorter than the MKS, but MUCH smaller is an exaggeration, and of course these two will be cross-shopped. The CTS actually has a slightly longer wheelbase than the MKS (and sits on its wheels better). Some of the difference in length is due to the very tidy front overhang on the CTS (and the unnecessarily long schnozz on the MKS). The MKS could have offered the same room it does without so much overhang. The MKS has more trunk space, but the opening is not any bigger, so it will merely hold a few more small objects than the CTS.
Anyway, people cross-shop cars in EPA interior volume categories all the time. Some people perceive the Taurus as a large mid-size, due to its looks, even though it is full-sized. The "full-sized" Sonata is generally not perceived as any more a full-sized a car than the Camry is.
All that said, the MKS really is a DTS competitor. Those who gravitate toward the CTS, BMWs, Infinitys, and Lexus (except for the ES350) are unlikely to give the MKS much of a look.
Understood, Bruce. $1000 a year is not the deal breaker for many people. And there really isn't a decent 30mpg vehicle out there anyhow.
Feeling kinda sympathetic towards folks around here who moved out to Modesto and Tracy and places 50 or 60 miles from work to buy an "affordable" house in trade for a 120 mile round trip commute. 600 miles a week, that's 30,000+ miles a year or about $9000 per year for gasoline. Ouch.
For us, we're moving in a couple of weeks 180 miles from here. Cheaper to live, less stress, wife got degree and will be starting job. Not sure how far her commute will be but conventional wisdom would have us rethink the LS. Probably would look at a Prius. At double or better the mpg, and a 50 mile RT commute it would still take lets see 45*50 carry the 1 divide by sum of the squares, factor in the obama constant, ... 10 years!! to break even at $5.00 gallon. Is it worth 10 years of driving a Prius vs a stick-shift LS that runs like new? Thats the big question. I think you know the answer.
Yes, people will cross-shop the CTS and MKS even though the car's missions are much different. The ES 350 will be in that cross-shop list, too. Which make gets the buyer will depend on the buyer's taste but I think the MKS will stack up pretty well for a large number of people.
I have driven a CTS. It is a sports sedan and you get a pretty noisy engine, lots of tire slap, and a firm ride. You don't get a lot usable rear seat room, either, but you do get a rewarding and engaging driving experience. If the buyer seeking soft luxury drives a CTS back to back with the MKS, my guess is the MKS will win hands down. It appears that the MKS is a bit more like the ES 350 only larger and with the 19 or 20 inch wheels and AWD, likely more engaging to drive. From a "neat gadget" standpoint, the MKS meets or exceeds either one.
RWD V8 sedans like the 300C, Northstar STS, or GS 460 will blow away the MKS in performance but those models are not selling. Lincoln may have stumbled onto the right formula with the MKS in spite of their incompetence when this car was conceived.
I understand about the whole commute vs. quality of life issue. A few years ago, we were buying a house, going from a condo, when we were expecting our first child. We looked at houses a few towns away from our work (we used to work at the same place) where we could get more for our money. The traffic is never bad on the weekends when you go to look at these houses, so we did a sample commute after work one day. Well, an hour later my wife said, "If I have to do this everyday I'll kill myself or you." So we sucked it up and bought a house 5 miles from work. We got about half as much land as we would have, but our sanity has been largely preserved. Still, with Boston traffic it takes us anywhere from 20 minutes to 45 minutes to make it those 5 miles.
Good luck with the move. I hope your life will really be easier.
I agree with lots of what jeyhoe said in his post. His and earlier posts got me to sit down and actually do the math on fuel cost. For my annual milage, I figured out the cost at 4, 5, 6, and 7 bucks a gallon at 22 MPG (estimated combined MPG for the MKS) and 27 MPG (likely combined MPG for an acceptable smaller car). The difference in fuel costs is something I can live with. Don't even want to think about fuel at over 7 bucks a gallon. Anyone have any idea when we will see that?
Bottom line, I will probably be buying a MKS unless there is a major surprise on the test drive. I am disappointed that there is no instantaneous fuel MPG display. I used to love to see the different MPG at different speeds in such a display. I will be disappointed if there turns out to be no external temperature on the display. I am disappointed that the rear seats do not fold down like they do for the Taurus and Sable. i would gladly trade some performance for a bit better MPG.
Want to know why I like Ford/Lincoln? There are two big reasons for me. I need the external keypad and I really like the cruise control with the singe mile per hour step up and step down function. For example, when the speed limit changes from 70 to 55 mph, I simply rapidly tap the step down button 15 times and forget about it. I had a GM car once where it was so hard to get the exact speed you wanted. Isn't it amazing the little things that make the difference for some people.
In life, it is after all, the little things that count. I appreciate as well the keypad and Ford cruise control. Have them on my pickup.
However, with the MKS there are little things I don't like: the too long schnozz (if it is not adding to room or style, why do it?), the lumpy profile (like a sanded Taurus), the too short wheelbase, the me-too rear door cut-out, the lower front grill that bears no relationship to the upper one.
I think gas costs will force the next version to be more efficient in weight and mpg. Lincoln already knows they didn't hit a home run with the styling..but at least they avoided using the Taurus homely stick on it.
I am not bothered by the long nose. It doesn't seem too long for me, but I will try to notice other new cars to see what you are talking about. I don't see the need to be just like everyone else style wise. On the other hand, if moving the front wheels a bit forward results in improved weight distribution, then I think that is a good thing. I agree with gregg, I believe we will see a somewhat lighter version with better MPG or else a hybrid version when it is time for a major revision of this car.
Thanks for the good words. I know my life will be easier. My wife, OTOH, will be doing the 40 hr/week at the hospital or clinic for a change. I still WAH but soon will cut down to 1/2 time and spend more time as Mr Mom. And playing golf. But I digress.
Oh, I hear you about Boston traffic. I grew up there. Used to drive from Forest Hills to Northeastern University, a distance of I'd estimate 10 miles, in 30 minutes on a good day. The trolley was an option, if u had another 30 minutes to waste
Lastly, we made the choice here that your wife recoiled against. We have lived for 10 years in a nice quiet place 20 miles south of Silicon Valley. The drive is over an 1800 foot pass via a mountain road that was nicknamed 'blood alley' until a 20 mile concrete center divider eliminated the head-ons. It's still a dangerous and challenging drive and one of the reasons I got a "driver's car" last time out. The guy who's buying the house is also a SV engineer and will have to travel this road. He's been down here three times what with negotiating and signing and walk thru etc. 2 of those 3 times it took him an hour to go those 20 miles. The last time, the road was closed due to a fire. (We now have 800 fires burning in N Cal due to a freak lightning storm on Sunday. Breathing is like smoking a pack a day) Any case, I dunno if he's regretting his decision or not. His wife has decided to look for a local job tho rather than drive "The Hill". I dont blame her.
As for gas costs, last week we brought a 95 Ford van load of 'stuff' up to the new place. 186 miles away from here. Used a full tank to go round trip. $124.00 !!??GRRR The flip side of course is I'd have to make about 5 trips with a Prius to get a van load of stuff moved.
Three Minneapolis Lincoln dealers have sent me invitations to their MKS preview events and the first one is tonight. I will provide a report tomorrow on my impressions. I don't think a test drive is part of the deal based on what others have posted.
The dealer with whom I have worked before no longer sells Lincolns and I have never set foot in any of the other Lincoln stores in town. This will be a good opportunity to determine which one I want to do business with.
I just returned from Apple Valley Ford where I carefully examined an MKS, participated in a training class for dealer personnel conducted by a factory Rep, and took a short test drive.
The interior of the production model is better than the show car I viewed earlier. The lower door panels are padded, there is some lining in the door pockets, and the fit and finish is great. I still think the center stack and console are 2nd rate and would cover them as soon as the aftermarket has a suitable product. I also still think the seat bottom is too short. Otherwise, the interior is very nice.
The technology is pretty impressive. The factory rep used me to demonstrate some of the features like sync and the various voice commands for the climate, nav, and entertainment system. Say "I am hungery" and up pops a list of eating establishments. Say the one you want and Nav will give you directions and the phone number to call for reservations. Pretty cool. Any destination can be entered via voice so you can do it all while driving. You can also adjust the temp and fan speed and lots of other things without taking your eyes off the road. I really like the jukebox. You can copy all of your CDs onto the harddrive and then tell it what you want to hear.
The drive was fairly short but eye-opening for me. Any comparison to a Taurus, an old Continental, or even a DTS is out the window from my perspective. This is much more of a drivers car than I expected. The ride with the 19 inch Michelins is firm - way firmer than a Taurus - even firmer than my LS. The car has a very solid feel. I would want to try one with the 18 inch wheels and standard Goodyear Comfortred tires before I decide which I like best. The factory rep told me the tires make a huge difference and that the 20s are very firm. He advised anyone who orders an MKS with the 20s to make sure they drive one with them first.
Another big surprise: The 3.7 V6 does an incredible imitation of a small V8. It seems much quieter and more refined than the 3.5. It also packs a solid punch. I think they made the throttle tip-in more aggressive than our Taurus because a slight punch on the gas really makes it respond. Wide open throttle sounds very refined and is stronger than I expected. The model I drove was AWD and it would handily out accelerate my LS. I would like to try the lighter FWD model.
Last thing: I thought I wanted the Sangria Red. They had one in that color and it is a bit too RED for me. I was hoping for something a bit more subdued. I will have to find one in Cinnamon and see what that looks like.
Overall, this is a pretty impressive car. I need to take a much longer drive but I liked what I saw. I look forward to comments from others after you drive one.
So this actually MIGHT BE the car to bring me back to Lincoln from Lexus, you are saying? The Lexus is excellent, but it is NOT a driver's car by any means, it's an isolation chamber with wheels. Not altogether a bad thing, but not fun. If the Lincoln is GOOD like the Lexus, and FUN like the Mercedes, for the price of a Lincoln, how can we go wrong?
Of course it has external temperature. It's in the electronic climate control.
Not according to the owner's manual. It isn't mentioned or shown in any of the diagrams. Have a look for yourself - this ECC is different than previous systems.
It has one. It is shown in the upper right side of the nav screen. I don't know about models without nav but the MKS I drove indicated it was 88 degrees today.
Nv, I look forward to your impressions after you drive one. I have never driven an LS430 so I don't know how it would compare with something that good! I have driven my bosses Acura RL and while the ride is similar, the MKS is a lot quieter. I would give the RL the nod for interior appointments primarily due to the beautiful center stack in the RL. The MKS is certainly the equal in refinement, IMO.
I need to drive one with the 18 inch wheels. Actually, the 19s were a bit firm for me. I also need to take longer drive where I can really push it around some corners. I promise you though, it is not a warmed over 2002 Continental.
Nice review, Bruce. And sounds like a really nice vehicle!? I have a few ?s if u wanna tackle them. Did it have external temp display and did it have a trip computer and if it did, what mpg did u observe?
Shame about the center stack. Just a shame. But then, IIRC, my 2001 LS had a pretty sad looking black center stack as well. Why is it that Lincoln apparently does not see the importance of making this area, the one that both driver and passenger see equally, visually attractive? In my case, I put a little matching wud over the radio and the HVAC and it made quite a difference.
Nav system sounds reallly trick. Haven't really been following the technology. How does this compare to other hi-tech nav systems? Anyone know?
As for the driving experience, it sounds quite good. Good accel. Any turns? As for the ride and handling etc - the AWD would sap a bit of power so the FWD might be even better performing. I wonder about the handling and possible torque steer in the FWD though. The AWD probably increases the good driving dynamics. What do u think? Interesting choice between AW and FW drive pros and cons
It is shown in the upper right side of the nav screen. I don't know about models without nav but the MKS I drove indicated it was 88 degrees today.
Good - I thought it was there but for some reason it's not even shown or mentioned in the owner's manual. Maybe it's in the Navigation/Sync supplement.
Yes, there are 2 trip computers and an external temp display on the nav according to Bruce.
As for the center stack - it's quite an upgrade from the LS' flat black plastic. Look at the high res pictures - it has sparkly bits and looks quite nice. Not sure how it feels and you may not be able to see that from a few feet away, but at least they're using better materials than in the past. I would have preferred to see some real wood or aluminum though.
Yes, there is the traditional trip computer that showed average MPG, miles to empty, etc, similar to my wife's Taurus. The instantaneous MPG is just a bar graph - not too useful. The car I drove was a factory car - not dealer stock and it had around 3000 miles on it. The average MPG on the display was 16.3 but I have no idea when it had been reset or what kind of driving was included. Yes, there is an external temp display. There are so many bells and whistles and information displays that it made my head spin.
Unfortunately, my drive consisted of about a mile or two of straight boulevard and about a mile of city streets - no way to really test the handling. I am basing my comments about the acceleration on one wide-open punch from about 20 - 60 MPH and a quick punch away from a stop light. I need more time in the car to really evaluate it but it felt plenty healthy. Unlike my wife's Taurus, there is no front end lift when you punch it.
When I say the ride is firm, I do not mean to imply that it is harsh. I really do not know if that firm ride translates into good handling. Need to find out. It is certainly not blue-hair sloppy, though.
A couple of other nits to pick: The leather on the driver's seat had more wrinkles after 3000 miles than my LS does at 110,000. Having said that, the leather does seem thicker and softer than the LS. Also, the manumatic is bass-ackwards as far as I am concerned. You pull back to upshift and push forward to downshift. On downshifts, it automatically raises the engine speed so it is very smooth.
Next week, I am going to another of these events at a different dealer. I hope to drive another one.
The shifter orientation was also an issue with the LS. Different MFRs do it different ways and there doesn't seem to be a standard or even agreement on which is better. For racing it would make sense for pull back to be upshift and push forward to be downshift since that would match your body movement when accelerating and decelerating but for the street it's just a personal preference.
It seems like Lincoln is trying to keep the driving impressions from the reviews. I saw Kelly's and was puzzled by this -- good for them for calling them out on it, though...
Say what? Every review I've read came from the press review where they let them drive it extensively and every review I've seen had driving impressions.
What they are not allowing yet is a full blown test - those are usually embargoed to give the major car magazines enough lead time to get their articles on the stand and to allow the cars to be available at dealerships. That should be within the next month.
I'd say its a failure, but Lincoln doesn't have anything else. This car can't be anything but positve for Lincoln. But I'd rather have a Hyundai Genesis.
Anyone who really wants to put the car through its paces other than a 10 minute drive should inquire if the dealer would agree to a more substantial work out. To help a prospective buyer I don't believe the dealer would refuse.
I agree with you. When I bought my LS, the dealer let me take it home overnight before I bought it. With a new or substantially different model, a robust test drive is a must.
No dealers in my area have any stock yet. The Ford Rep who was at the preview event I attended was as protective as a mother lion with a new cub. When a local dealer gets some cars, I plan on a good test drive.
The car has its benefits. It's better than the Towncar in terms of handling except when having to use the vehicles handling capabilities when trying to avoid an obstacle at speeds above 70 mph that is when the dreaded torque steer phenomenon takes effect. All in all the vehicle is well made and tomb quiet. .I just wish they would have made the interior more on par with Mercedes or Lexus. Also I believe that they could have made most of the electronic doodahs optional and used the funds that they would have saved from the electronics and produced a rwd vehicle with active suspension with manual override for those that prefer a softer ride. The Towncar was not a bad handler with the optional sport suspension . It had one draw -back though even with the sport package and that is the live rear axle . When accelerating out of a turn the rear end would start to lose its grip. Too bad that the TC didn't have an irs.
I'd bet the actual selling price of a TC last year was way lower than a nicely equipped MKS.
I don't understand why you think making electronic "doo-dahs" optional would save any money at all. It certainly had nothing to do with the platform selection. The problem was Ford does not have a suitable RWD platform available right now for Lincoln. Poor product planning from the early part of this decade. The D3 platform was the only viable platform available and it looks like they've made the most of it. GRWD is still coming AFAIK, despite some reports to the contrary.
I also don't understand torque steer when making a lane change at 70+ mph.
If the FWD MKS handles torque steer as well as a Taurus, it will not be an issue for me. The only time I feel torque steer on the Taurus is hard acceleration while turning sharply at low speeds. Making a 90 degree turn off of a side street onto a faster moving boulevard and punching it while making the turn would be an example. It takes pretty hard acceleration to feel it.
If one were really sensitive to torque steer, AWD would be the solution. No doubt if you attempted to compete in an autocross with a FWD MKS, you would discover drawbacks compared to a RWD vehicle. Likewise, if I attemped to drive an MKS back into the wooded area of my property and load it with firewood, I would find that my 4WD Ranger would be better for the task.
I am not talking about lane changes. I am talking about avoiding an obstacle. Sort of like avoiding a car that cuts into your lane.Steering around the obstacle and then steering back into the lane to avoid an oncoming vehicle. Dealers were told that the MKS was to be based on the new Jag C -XFplatform . When Lincoln decided that that was too expensive ,they then they informed dealers that it would be based on the Australian Falcon platform. but that platform was too expensive also. Then they said it would be based on the Taurus platform. The electronic doodahs are not cheap to design.Lincoln could have used that money to improve the cars performance. But Lincoln decided to go for gimmicks over performance.
But Lincoln decided to go for gimmicks over performance.
Have not even touched let alone driven an MKS yet, so I can't speak to performance, but I think "gimmicks" is an incorrect assessment of the "equipment" on the car. I'm not going to buy a Lincoln that doesn't have a lot of options, or equipment to make my drive easier. Sync makes Lincoln competitive with anybody on the voice/telephone/entertainment front, and is a huge step for Ford. They can't put too much "equipment" on a car for me. One man's gimmick is another man's must have, I guess.
The Lincoln must have about every option imaginable on it to be competitive, and if it is going to overcome the comparison to Buick, it needs to have more than Buick and Acura to get back into the league with the big boys. Not sure this car will do it, but it's clearly a step in the right direction, I think.
Again, what's the deal? Torque steer, if not well-engineered out, appears under hard acceleration and you feel it as a slight tug to the wheel. Steering around an obstacle may sometimes work out better in a FWD car, depending on the situation, slipperiness of the surface, etc. With a RWD, a quick evasion and correction could even bring the tail around (without stability control). With FWD you might get plowing with sharp cornering, but it is unlikely to have much effect on quick lane changes. Both FWD and RWD luxury cars will be equipped with stability control, so it is unlikely that you would see much difference in lane changes to avoid an object.
Dealers were never told the MKS would use the XF chassis. The LS was the end of the line for that. Nor was the plan ever to use the Falcon chassis. For one thing, it is right hand drive and not easily re-engineered.
The MKS was designed from the beginning as a FWD car. It was proposed before the MKR, and to date, there is still no completed design for the MKR RWD chassis. The LS chassis was expensive and dated. Ford chose to retire it, rather than fix/update it for the little pay-off if any it would provide. What remained was the Mustang chassis (an expensive and compromising re-do needed to make it a larger 4 door)...and we can't even speak of the Town Car chassis, which is so outclassed in 2008 that it would be ludicrous to base a new allegedly competitive luxury car on it.
From what I have read, for what it is the MKS performance is class competitive. A RWD sedan is planned but still down the road. Given the realities of new EPA mandates and real world gas prices, it makes sense that Lincoln didn't put its few eggs in that basket right away.
The Lincoln brand is seeking to survive after years of inept design and lack of new models. Going after BMW customers in 2008 would be just as inept, and may have hastened the brand's demise. It's survival will remain in question, but the MKS is the best thing Lincoln has issued since the early LS.
I am not talking about lane changes. I am talking about avoiding an obstacle. Sort of like avoiding a car that cuts into your lane.Steering around the obstacle and then steering back into the lane to avoid an oncoming vehicle.
In other words - a LANE CHANGE. Same thing. What you just described has nothing to do with torque steer - that only occurs when you are under hard acceleration - usually from a stop.
The Jag platform requires expensive low volume engines, which was part of the LS' problem. The corporate V8s (4.6/5.0) won't fit. And the platform itself is expensive. Not to mention that Jag is/will be a separate company.
The Falcon platform solves the engine problem, but it's expensive to import and convert to LHD and it doesn't necessarily have the refinement necessary for Lincoln.
The Global RWD platform should solve all of those problems. Unfortunately it won't get here overnight.
As I said before, blame the lack of planning/direction and budget that occurred in the 2002-2006 timeframe. It didn't happen overnight and it won't get fixed overnight. In the meantime, Lincoln has to sell vehicles at a profit and the MKS (with all of it's doo-dahs" will do just that.
Doesn't one use the car's throttle and steering to avoid an oncoming vehicle. I own a dealership, I was told that the MKS was to be the LS replacement. Also told that it was to be based on the new Jag platform. I presume that was to be the C-XF platform. The MKS was to be built at the Wixom line. We know what has happened to Wixon. The effect of what you describe in your post that concern rwd vehicles is described as over-steer. This use to be common to vehicle with rwd irs.But thanks to Mercedes this hasn't been a problem with rwd irs. Porsche had this problem because of the weight that was centered on the rear of its vehicles. But through modern tech Porsche has limited this problem. Any vehicle will skin if it loses contact with the road because of weather. I've seen a 78 Chevy Blazer with Four wheel drive plow into a pole after losing grip on black ice
I was told that the MKS was to be the LS replacement. Well, yes, it has been characterized as that, even though it has a somewhat different purpose. Whoever told you it was to be based on the Jaguar XF platform obviously doesn't read the auto press, and wasn't paying attention at his own company meetings.
I was also informed by Ford that the fate of Mercury would be determined by the end of this year. A Ford rep informed me that rwd was dead for all except for the Mustang. If Lincoln is going to compete with Buick, then the Jag platform is too expensive. I believe that the XF starts at around 49 K. When Ford unloads Volvo, Ford will be using a Volvo platform on its present vehicles. It could have done the same with Jag. And as far as torque steer the operative word in your post is usually. Try driving the Vehicle to avoid an obstacle by steering the vehicle with the throttle wide -open.
I own a dealership, I was told that the MKS was to be the LS replacement. Also told that it was to be based on the new Jag platform. I presume that was to be the C-XF platform. The MKS was to be built at the Wixom line.
Let me guess - you were "told" this by a factory rep, right? As opposed to seeing it in writing in a memo or broadcast at a dealer conference? Or maybe this was just pie in the sky early planning before they actually decided what to do?
And there is nothing about RWD IRS that makes it understeer. What was the great invention that Mercedes came up with that made this non-issue a non-issue?
Don't believe everything your "rep" tells you - they don't know everything about future product plans and are usually just relaying what they heard through the grapevine or through internal memos. If you heard it from Kuzack or Fields then believe it - otherwise take it with a grain of salt.
And Ford isn't using a Volvo platform - the new D3 (D3-2 or D4) platform may have started as a Volvo but it's been highly modified by Ford and uses Ford engines.
One reason the Jag platform wasn't used is that it isn't AWD capable. That's one reason the Volvo platform WAS selected to begin with.
In that post ,he wrote over-steer. The Mercedes 300 Sl Gullwing had the problem of over- steer. Yes , speculator is correct that independent rears would have the rear end of the vehicle swing out when going out of a turn at added throttle. That is over steer not under-steer. Mercedes changed the rear end geometry of the Irs to allow the tires to make better contact with the roads surface. One thing is for sure, Ford could never have done it. Torque is the tendency for an object to spin on its axis. To have torque steer the vehicle doesn't need to accelerate from a standing position in a straight line to feel the auto's steering go against the direction that the vehicle is turning. With torque an object is always heading in a straight line at one point. If one can freeze an object that is spinning one would notice that the item is pointed in one direction through a straight line, Even when turning at increasing speeds. The problem of the torque steer is that the amount of pressure that is being delivered through the front is unequal. If the drive shafts were of equal length this problem would not be a factor. The old Eldo before it was redesigned in the late 80's didn't have the problem of torque steer because the drive shafts were of equal length. Also the engines were mounted longitudinal not side-ways.
Lets face it. In this country most drivers are not going to use th car's steering to avoid an accident. What they'll do is slam on the brakes and pray for the best.
There is an article by Car and Driver quoting a Ford rep that there is a good chance that the MKS would be built on the XF platform . The article can be found by using Google
Also sometime a vehicle's driver has only one choice.That's to hit the brakes. I agree that a car should have good and quick steering when needed to avoid an accident. Also I'm sure that you really didnt mean that Ford engineers couldn't solve the oversteer problem of early irs'. Ford has some pretty good engineers Love the way they have designed the GT . Talk about a car that is fun to drive. WOW! Corvette , Viper ,my [non-permissible content removed]! Given more funds the car guys would have handled the torque steer of the MKS. If one doesn't want torque steer purchase the vehicle with awd. They actually have done a good job with the MKS.
Comments
Yes to both, Jeyhoe. By the way, I enjoy reading your posts and always have! If I disagree or even purposely take some of what you say out of context, it is nothing personal. I think you know by now that I have a sense of humor. My only point is that sometimes I think we over-react. If an Explorer fits the needs of a family for hauling or towing or whatever, and they suddenly trade it for a Prius, they must not have needed an Explorer very badly in the first place.
I do not intend to quit living my life just because gas is expensive. I might cut back on a few other things to help compensate but I like cars too much to give up and drive a bleepbox just because I might save a few bucks a year.
If you're just saying that some people won't be able or willing to spend $3K/year on a new 20 mpg vehicle then I'd agree - SOME people won't. But I'm sure you have Navigator owners who are currently getting 15 mpg who would gladly trade for a 20 mpg MKS - they'll be SAVING $1500/yr in fuel costs while getting even more luxury features. So it works both ways.
The only 30 mpg vehicles (combined) I know of are very small 4 cylinder cars without any luxury features. Do you really think people would buy a Corolla instead of a MKS?
The CTS is not a direct MKS competitor - it's MUCH smaller, that's why I used the DTS. The point is that from a FE standpoint the MKS is actually better than previous Lincoln vehicles and most of the direct competition. The entire segment (large luxury sedans) might take a hit but there's no reason the MKS would take more of a hit than the others.
Anyway, people cross-shop cars in EPA interior volume categories all the time. Some people perceive the Taurus as a large mid-size, due to its looks, even though it is full-sized. The "full-sized" Sonata is generally not perceived as any more a full-sized a car than the Camry is.
All that said, the MKS really is a DTS competitor. Those who gravitate toward the CTS, BMWs, Infinitys, and Lexus (except for the ES350) are unlikely to give the MKS much of a look.
Feeling kinda sympathetic towards folks around here who moved out to Modesto and Tracy and places 50 or 60 miles from work to buy an "affordable" house in trade for a 120 mile round trip commute. 600 miles a week, that's 30,000+ miles a year or about $9000 per year for gasoline. Ouch.
For us, we're moving in a couple of weeks 180 miles from here. Cheaper to live, less stress, wife got degree and will be starting job. Not sure how far her commute will be but conventional wisdom would have us rethink the LS. Probably would look at a Prius. At double or better the mpg, and a 50 mile RT commute it would still take lets see 45*50 carry the 1 divide by sum of the squares, factor in the obama constant, ... 10 years!! to break even at $5.00 gallon. Is it worth 10 years of driving a Prius vs a stick-shift LS that runs like new? Thats the big question.
I have driven a CTS. It is a sports sedan and you get a pretty noisy engine, lots of tire slap, and a firm ride. You don't get a lot usable rear seat room, either, but you do get a rewarding and engaging driving experience. If the buyer seeking soft luxury drives a CTS back to back with the MKS, my guess is the MKS will win hands down. It appears that the MKS is a bit more like the ES 350 only larger and with the 19 or 20 inch wheels and AWD, likely more engaging to drive. From a "neat gadget" standpoint, the MKS meets or exceeds either one.
RWD V8 sedans like the 300C, Northstar STS, or GS 460 will blow away the MKS in performance but those models are not selling. Lincoln may have stumbled onto the right formula with the MKS in spite of their incompetence when this car was conceived.
Good luck with the move. I hope your life will really be easier.
Bottom line, I will probably be buying a MKS unless there is a major surprise on the test drive. I am disappointed that there is no instantaneous fuel MPG display. I used to love to see the different MPG at different speeds in such a display. I will be disappointed if there turns out to be no external temperature on the display. I am disappointed that the rear seats do not fold down like they do for the Taurus and Sable. i would gladly trade some performance for a bit better MPG.
Want to know why I like Ford/Lincoln? There are two big reasons for me. I need the external keypad and I really like the cruise control with the singe mile per hour step up and step down function. For example, when the speed limit changes from 70 to 55 mph, I simply rapidly tap the step down button 15 times and forget about it. I had a GM car once where it was so hard to get the exact speed you wanted. Isn't it amazing the little things that make the difference for some people.
However, with the MKS there are little things I don't like: the too long schnozz (if it is not adding to room or style, why do it?), the lumpy profile (like a sanded Taurus), the too short wheelbase, the me-too rear door cut-out, the lower front grill that bears no relationship to the upper one.
I think gas costs will force the next version to be more efficient in weight and mpg. Lincoln already knows they didn't hit a home run with the styling..but at least they avoided using the Taurus homely stick on it.
Thanks for the good words. I know my life will be easier.
Oh, I hear you about Boston traffic. I grew up there. Used to drive from Forest Hills to Northeastern University, a distance of I'd estimate 10 miles, in 30 minutes on a good day. The trolley was an option, if u had another 30 minutes to waste
Lastly, we made the choice here that your wife recoiled against. We have lived for 10 years in a nice quiet place 20 miles south of Silicon Valley. The drive is over an 1800 foot pass via a mountain road that was nicknamed 'blood alley' until a 20 mile concrete center divider eliminated the head-ons. It's still a dangerous and challenging drive and one of the reasons I got a "driver's car" last time out. The guy who's buying the house is also a SV engineer and will have to travel this road. He's been down here three times what with negotiating and signing and walk thru etc. 2 of those 3 times it took him an hour to go those 20 miles. The last time, the road was closed due to a fire. (We now have 800 fires burning in N Cal due to a freak lightning storm on Sunday. Breathing is like smoking a pack a day) Any case, I dunno if he's regretting his decision or not. His wife has decided to look for a local job tho rather than drive "The Hill". I dont blame her.
As for gas costs, last week we brought a 95 Ford van load of 'stuff' up to the new place. 186 miles away from here. Used a full tank to go round trip. $124.00 !!??GRRR The flip side of course is I'd have to make about 5 trips with a Prius to get a van load of stuff moved.
The dealer with whom I have worked before no longer sells Lincolns and I have never set foot in any of the other Lincoln stores in town. This will be a good opportunity to determine which one I want to do business with.
The interior of the production model is better than the show car I viewed earlier. The lower door panels are padded, there is some lining in the door pockets, and the fit and finish is great. I still think the center stack and console are 2nd rate and would cover them as soon as the aftermarket has a suitable product. I also still think the seat bottom is too short. Otherwise, the interior is very nice.
The technology is pretty impressive. The factory rep used me to demonstrate some of the features like sync and the various voice commands for the climate, nav, and entertainment system. Say "I am hungery" and up pops a list of eating establishments. Say the one you want and Nav will give you directions and the phone number to call for reservations. Pretty cool. Any destination can be entered via voice so you can do it all while driving. You can also adjust the temp and fan speed and lots of other things without taking your eyes off the road. I really like the jukebox. You can copy all of your CDs onto the harddrive and then tell it what you want to hear.
The drive was fairly short but eye-opening for me. Any comparison to a Taurus, an old Continental, or even a DTS is out the window from my perspective. This is much more of a drivers car than I expected. The ride with the 19 inch Michelins is firm - way firmer than a Taurus - even firmer than my LS. The car has a very solid feel. I would want to try one with the 18 inch wheels and standard Goodyear Comfortred tires before I decide which I like best. The factory rep told me the tires make a huge difference and that the 20s are very firm. He advised anyone who orders an MKS with the 20s to make sure they drive one with them first.
Another big surprise: The 3.7 V6 does an incredible imitation of a small V8. It seems much quieter and more refined than the 3.5. It also packs a solid punch. I think they made the throttle tip-in more aggressive than our Taurus because a slight punch on the gas really makes it respond. Wide open throttle sounds very refined and is stronger than I expected. The model I drove was AWD and it would handily out accelerate my LS. I would like to try the lighter FWD model.
Last thing: I thought I wanted the Sangria Red. They had one in that color and it is a bit too RED for me. I was hoping for something a bit more subdued. I will have to find one in Cinnamon and see what that looks like.
Overall, this is a pretty impressive car. I need to take a much longer drive but I liked what I saw. I look forward to comments from others after you drive one.
Not according to the owner's manual. It isn't mentioned or shown in any of the diagrams. Have a look for yourself - this ECC is different than previous systems.
https://www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/owners_manuals/default.asp
Nv, I look forward to your impressions after you drive one. I have never driven an LS430 so I don't know how it would compare with something that good! I have driven my bosses Acura RL and while the ride is similar, the MKS is a lot quieter. I would give the RL the nod for interior appointments primarily due to the beautiful center stack in the RL. The MKS is certainly the equal in refinement, IMO.
I need to drive one with the 18 inch wheels. Actually, the 19s were a bit firm for me. I also need to take longer drive where I can really push it around some corners. I promise you though, it is not a warmed over 2002 Continental.
Shame about the center stack. Just a shame. But then, IIRC, my 2001 LS had a pretty sad looking black center stack as well. Why is it that Lincoln apparently does not see the importance of making this area, the one that both driver and passenger see equally, visually attractive? In my case, I put a little matching wud over the radio and the HVAC and it made quite a difference.
Nav system sounds reallly trick. Haven't really been following the technology. How does this compare to other hi-tech nav systems? Anyone know?
As for the driving experience, it sounds quite good. Good accel. Any turns? As for the ride and handling etc - the AWD would sap a bit of power so the FWD might be even better performing. I wonder about the handling and possible torque steer in the FWD though. The AWD probably increases the good driving dynamics. What do u think? Interesting choice between AW and FW drive pros and cons
Good - I thought it was there but for some reason it's not even shown or mentioned in the owner's manual. Maybe it's in the Navigation/Sync supplement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXSMczXUnzs&feature=user
Yes, there are 2 trip computers and an external temp display on the nav according to Bruce.
As for the center stack - it's quite an upgrade from the LS' flat black plastic. Look at the high res pictures - it has sparkly bits and looks quite nice. Not sure how it feels and you may not be able to see that from a few feet away, but at least they're using better materials than in the past. I would have preferred to see some real wood or aluminum though.
Unfortunately, my drive consisted of about a mile or two of straight boulevard and about a mile of city streets - no way to really test the handling. I am basing my comments about the acceleration on one wide-open punch from about 20 - 60 MPH and a quick punch away from a stop light. I need more time in the car to really evaluate it but it felt plenty healthy. Unlike my wife's Taurus, there is no front end lift when you punch it.
When I say the ride is firm, I do not mean to imply that it is harsh. I really do not know if that firm ride translates into good handling. Need to find out. It is certainly not blue-hair sloppy, though.
A couple of other nits to pick: The leather on the driver's seat had more wrinkles after 3000 miles than my LS does at 110,000. Having said that, the leather does seem thicker and softer than the LS. Also, the manumatic is bass-ackwards as far as I am concerned. You pull back to upshift and push forward to downshift. On downshifts, it automatically raises the engine speed so it is very smooth.
Next week, I am going to another of these events at a different dealer. I hope to drive another one.
What they are not allowing yet is a full blown test - those are usually embargoed to give the major car magazines enough lead time to get their articles on the stand and to allow the cars to be available at dealerships. That should be within the next month.
There are a ton of driving impressions available if you do a search for "lincoln MKS reviews."
This one has quotes from lots of different reviewers.
No dealers in my area have any stock yet. The Ford Rep who was at the preview event I attended was as protective as a mother lion with a new cub. When a local dealer gets some cars, I plan on a good test drive.
I don't understand why you think making electronic "doo-dahs" optional would save any money at all. It certainly had nothing to do with the platform selection. The problem was Ford does not have a suitable RWD platform available right now for Lincoln. Poor product planning from the early part of this decade. The D3 platform was the only viable platform available and it looks like they've made the most of it. GRWD is still coming AFAIK, despite some reports to the contrary.
I also don't understand torque steer when making a lane change at 70+ mph.
If one were really sensitive to torque steer, AWD would be the solution. No doubt if you attempted to compete in an autocross with a FWD MKS, you would discover drawbacks compared to a RWD vehicle. Likewise, if I attemped to drive an MKS back into the wooded area of my property and load it with firewood, I would find that my 4WD Ranger would be better for the task.
Have not even touched let alone driven an MKS yet, so I can't speak to performance, but I think "gimmicks" is an incorrect assessment of the "equipment" on the car. I'm not going to buy a Lincoln that doesn't have a lot of options, or equipment to make my drive easier. Sync makes Lincoln competitive with anybody on the voice/telephone/entertainment front, and is a huge step for Ford. They can't put too much "equipment" on a car for me. One man's gimmick is another man's must have, I guess.
The Lincoln must have about every option imaginable on it to be competitive, and if it is going to overcome the comparison to Buick, it needs to have more than Buick and Acura to get back into the league with the big boys. Not sure this car will do it, but it's clearly a step in the right direction, I think.
Dealers were never told the MKS would use the XF chassis. The LS was the end of the line for that. Nor was the plan ever to use the Falcon chassis. For one thing, it is right hand drive and not easily re-engineered.
The MKS was designed from the beginning as a FWD car. It was proposed before the MKR, and to date, there is still no completed design for the MKR RWD chassis. The LS chassis was expensive and dated. Ford chose to retire it, rather than fix/update it for the little pay-off if any it would provide. What remained was the Mustang chassis (an expensive and compromising re-do needed to make it a larger 4 door)...and we can't even speak of the Town Car chassis, which is so outclassed in 2008 that it would be ludicrous to base a new allegedly competitive luxury car on it.
From what I have read, for what it is the MKS performance is class competitive. A RWD sedan is planned but still down the road. Given the realities of new EPA mandates and real world gas prices, it makes sense that Lincoln didn't put its few eggs in that basket right away.
The Lincoln brand is seeking to survive after years of inept design and lack of new models. Going after BMW customers in 2008 would be just as inept, and may have hastened the brand's demise. It's survival will remain in question, but the MKS is the best thing Lincoln has issued since the early LS.
In other words - a LANE CHANGE. Same thing. What you just described has nothing to do with torque steer - that only occurs when you are under hard acceleration - usually from a stop.
The Jag platform requires expensive low volume engines, which was part of the LS' problem. The corporate V8s (4.6/5.0) won't fit. And the platform itself is expensive. Not to mention that Jag is/will be a separate company.
The Falcon platform solves the engine problem, but it's expensive to import and convert to LHD and it doesn't necessarily have the refinement necessary for Lincoln.
The Global RWD platform should solve all of those problems. Unfortunately it won't get here overnight.
As I said before, blame the lack of planning/direction and budget that occurred in the 2002-2006 timeframe. It didn't happen overnight and it won't get fixed overnight. In the meantime, Lincoln has to sell vehicles at a profit and the MKS (with all of it's doo-dahs" will do just that.
Let me guess - you were "told" this by a factory rep, right? As opposed to seeing it in writing in a memo or broadcast at a dealer conference? Or maybe this was just pie in the sky early planning before they actually decided what to do?
And there is nothing about RWD IRS that makes it understeer. What was the great invention that Mercedes came up with that made this non-issue a non-issue?
And Ford isn't using a Volvo platform - the new D3 (D3-2 or D4) platform may have started as a Volvo but it's been highly modified by Ford and uses Ford engines.
One reason the Jag platform wasn't used is that it isn't AWD capable. That's one reason the Volvo platform WAS selected to begin with.