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Also, the "fitted" seats or concave style found in certain cars - like the smaller Saturns - are extremely uncomfortable for those who have broad shoulders.
Am I supposed to buy a vehicle that I feel uncomfortable in?
I have never owned a full sized car. Mid-sized has always been my limit. The Chevette and the Tempo - despite their shortcomings - were very comfortable cars. The current selections do not measure up in that respect.
I think they are comparable to other 60s cars. There's amazing headroom and legroom, this was an early attempt at ergonomics. The steering wheel is huge, which isn't all a bad thing. The dash is kinda high up, that has to help the legroom too. The seats are very comfortable, softer than in my 126, which also had wide seats. The C43 has bolstered sport seats, and it was quite an adaptation for me when I bought it...but now I appreciate being held in place during high speed cornering.
As for side bolstering, it's nice in the respect that it keeps you planted in spirited driving, but I don't like it in smaller seats, because it ends up pressing into my legs and makes me uncomfortable after awhile. Ditto for bolstering on the backrest. Fine if it's wide enough, but otherwise it just hits me in the lats or shoulder blades, and makes me uncomfortable.
And with the fintail seat back so far, there's still OK room in the back
C43 seats (might be hard to tell, but the bolsters are intrusive)
Big wide 126 seats
When I had the C43 for about a week, I was thinking 'geez you've really let yourself go' as the seats seemed so conforming and tight...but now I am very comfortable in it, so that's how it is supposed to be. You really can't move around much, which you could do in the older cars. Different styles of vehicle though, like going from a DTS to a CTSV I am sure.
If the price of fuel keeps going up and staying there, people might start buying the diesels.
Before I had the Passat I had an 04 Toyota Seinna for one year and got rid of it because of bad handling, and a questionable automatic transmission. I consider the Sienna the worse car I have ever owned. It did get better mileage than the three previous Dodge mini vans.
I'm averaging between 30 and 35 miles per gallon with my Passat TDI (auto trans). Closer to the 35.
With the cost of fuel these days and with little chance of it going down much, if ever, it is time for much better mileage figures on all vehicles.
Let's see, what's wrong? Off the top of my head, keeping in mind that not all of the choices have the same issues:
-geared too short to be comfortable on long drives. Yeah, I know smaller engines need to rev more, but some cars go overboard
- Only having strippo models. Just because I want small, doesn't mean I want spartan. Give me my moonroof Honda!
- Too small seats. The car might be small, not all drivers are
- not sporty enough.
- MPG not what it should be, which is often related to the gearing. In the recent C&D test of 15K sub compacts, only the Fit and Yaris broke 30mpg on a road trip. I think my 4 cyl 5 speed Accord could do that.
I think the makers need to figure out what they are trying to do with these models. Low price at all cost? Sporty "fun" car for the young crowd? Some mix?
I would be real interested in the Fit is they made an EX or Si version, with sport seats (with an armrest!), a moonroof, and pretty much the rest of the car as is. That wold make it like a 4 door Mini.
I actually am real interested in the Versa. It can actually be equipped like a little luxo car, and still only be about 17K. Just a little concerned about the report of small seats and cramped footwells.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Talk about enabling the peanut gallery...then again, you can always turn up the radio.
Todd in Beerbratistan
Date posted: 04-08-2006
DETROIT — GM Performance Parts introduced two supercharger kits for the 2.0-liter Ecotec-powered Chevrolet Cobalt Coupe SS Supercharged and Saturn Ion Redline on Thursday.
The Stage One and Stage Two upgrade kits provide an additional 31 and 36 horsepower, respectively.
The Stage One kit is priced at $500 and includes higher-flow fuel injectors and an ECU calibration to provide a 31-hp boost to the Cobalt Coupe SS Supercharged and the Ion Redline Ecotec engine, for a total of 236 hp and 205 pound-feet of torque.
The Stage Two kit is priced at $750 and includes the parts available in the Stage One kit, but it adds a smaller supercharger pulley and drive belt. Output with this kit is 241 hp and 218 lb-ft of torque.
The kits fit the 2005-06 Saturn Ion Redline and Chevrolet Cobalt Coupe SS Supercharged models only. They require premium fuel and are available now through all GM dealerships.
What this means to you: A good shot of adrenaline for under a grand.
What this means to me: GM has a new sheriff in town. The new king of the subcompact market.
Rocky
Rocky
I also don't like the sardine can feeling of a subcompact :surprise:
Rocky
Rocky
All Right
Rocky
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The xA and Yaris seem to have the seat a little bit higher than the Corolla, and the steering wheel is placed a bit better. Still not that comfortable though, and still lacking in legroom. For someone like me it would be a definite penalty box, and gas would have to shoot up to an astronomical price to make that kind of torture worth it.
Now that's not to say that I'd totally rule out ANY small car, but I'd probably go more with a compact than a subcompact. Something like maybe a Caliber (haven't test-sat in it yet though) or a Civic.
I've also noticed that I prefer tilt wheels where just the steering wheel and part of the column pivots, versus those styles where the whole column moves up and down. Usually those will still leave the wheel too low for my comfort.
Oh, and Shifty, I just sat behind the wheel of my old Dart yesterday, for old times sake. My head's about 3" from the headliner. I could probably hit my head getting into and out of the car, though, if I gave it half a try (something I could probably do with most cars, though).
But the xA seems ok.
Rocky
Rocky
Besides, tea ain't exactly my thing, either. Unless it's from Lawn Guyland. :shades:
However, what surprised me was the discomfort I had sitting in the Jetta. And don’t even bring up those rear seats in the Jetta and Passat. They are as flat as a poker table, with ZERO thigh support, and short to boot. Perhaps the idea was to add to the “boot space” which is indeed impressive and nicely done in those VWs.
And I was surprised at the (lack of) headroom in H2 as well (first time I stepped in one). With the height of a locomotive, I would have otherwise thought of much better "head clearance".
I will try to check the xA (ugly as it is both inside and out) on the way home and let you know what I think.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Rocky
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My Dad's '03 Regal is the same way. In fact, most cars on that platform are. I've heard others complain about it too, and call it the curse of the W-body!
As for the Scion? Well, Shifty, you have to realize that sometimes an inch or two can make a huge difference. I've said it before, but I'll say it again (and probably again some point down the road) but comfort is one part interior room, one part seat design, and one part what you're used to/prefer. As for seat comfort, no one car seat is going to be able to accommodate all shapes and sizes. Car makers mainly just pick an average, and that's what they make the seat the most comfortable for, whereas others just have to deal with it.
However, if there's insufficient interior room, the most comfortable seat in the world is useless, because your body simply won't fit in it correctly.
Then, there's what you're used to. Okay, I'm 6'3". I fit in my Intrepid okay, more or less. On longer trips though, I tend to drive barefoot, because losing the shoe gives me about the extra legroom I need. One of my roommates is 6'2". Yet if he drives my Intrepid, he usually puts the seat up a few notches. I couldn't believe it the first time I saw him do it!
But now my other roommate is about 5'10", and sometimes if he drives the car, he just leaves the seat where it is. Or he'll move it forward to about where my 6'2" roommate does.
So the reality is that there's not that much correlation between height and where you put the seat. It's more with what you're comfortable with than anything else.
Also, keep in mind that two people might only be an inch apart, but could still be built totally differently. I've got an inch on you, but I might have a few inches on you when it comes to inseam. I might have a shorter torso, belly, neck, or whatever.
Plus, keep in mind that in taking away interior room, the loss of each additional increment can be an order of magnitude greater than the one before. For example, if you take a car that has 42.5" of legroom and fits me just fine, and knock it down to 42", I might still be able to deal with it. But now, take it down to 41.5", and I'm going to notice that loss much worse than the one before. At 41", the car might be a torture chamber to me, and anything below that could very well be unuseable.
Look at it this way. Suppose you have a house with a 9 foot ceiling. Then it gets cut down to an 8 foot ceiling. In this case, you lose a bit of that spacious feeling, but there's no real functional loss. You can still walk around in that room. Now, knock it down to 7 feet, and you can still walk around fine, but that ceiling's going to feel awfully close. And if you're tall, you're going to be really claustrophobic. But now, knock it down to 6 feet, and suddenly that room becomes useless to just about everybody. Even if you're under 6 feet tall, you have to consider the heel of the boot/shoe you're wearing. Plus, most people, for lack of a better word, "bop" when they walk. Unless they're balancing a book on their head or something.
Same principle, basically, when you're dealing with cars. Now if you're used to torturing yourself with cars with no legroom, then yeah, an xA or whatever might be just fine. Some people also like piercing their "netherlands" with surgical needles. I, for one, don't. Umm, not that I've ever tried it now, so I can't comment from experience, but I don't think I'd enjoy it!
I HAVE experienced an xA though. And a Yaris. At least sitting in one. About the best I could say for it is "I could actually tolerate this". And it could be fun for a few minutes. Just like a rollercoaster ride. Or the go-kart track. But after more than a few minutes, either one of those becomes more torture than anything else. But I guess you can build up a tolerance to it. Just like those surgical needles. :P
What I think you were also trying to say was not ever 6'2 6'3 has the same length in legs and torso height. :shades:
Rocky
I have the 2007 Toyota Yaris on my test drive list, perhaps tomorrow even. We'll see. There's a Nautical Blue(I think that's what Toyota calls the metallic dark blue on the Yaris)and a Barcelona Red one at my local Toyota dealer waiting for me to hop in and drive. They're both 5-speeders and Base Yaris sedans, the cheapest Yarii on their lot right now. Picked up a C&D magazine at Fred Meyer's yesterday and I'm sure it's well-known but they compare 7 compacts in the May issue.
The short and sweet of it: they absolutely fall off their rocking chairs praising the Honda Fit. Love the Nissan Versa 2nd and the Kia Rio5 beats out the Toyota Yaris sedan for 3rd place. The Fit won in a landslide though. Name an ergonomic and they prefer the Fit. 0-60 race? Fit won it by far.
The Yaris has too much body roll and falls short on directional stability? What, a Toyota being blown by the wind and knocked off track on the freeway? Read more here. Well, ponder this for a sec: the Yaris sedan only weighs 2,377 pounds, it is 104 pounds lighter than the next heaviest car in their comparo, the Honda Fit.
Interestingly they say the electronicly-assisted steering in the Yaris is over-active, that over 55 mph you'd best keep both hands on the wheel because it won't straight-track for you very well. I must see this for myself. Also, they say it's small in the back but don't put down it's front-side room, except to mention that the seat leaves thighs unsupported, it's too short. Kind of reminds me of a certain Hyundai, the 2006 Sonata that had an "unsupportive cushion" problem that may or may not be getting fixed by Hyundai as I type this.
They rank the Dodge Caliber 6th, just in front of the Suzuki Reno.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I haven't read through this whole thread yet but I figured I would throw in my 2 cents having recently been to China.
I rode in a Nissan Versa (gypsy cab in Beijing) and the backseat room was impressive to say the least. I'm 6'2" and I was amazed at how roomy it felt back there, and how much I could stretch out. I made sure to note what model it was just based on that.
And to the one who mentioned the Chinese made Chery brand, are you serious??? If you thought GM's cars had cheap shiny plastic you ain't seen nothing yet! I rode in a few of their small models(can't read the chinese) and even low mileage examples were losing interior trim pieces, cracked arm rests, misaligned side windows howling in the wind etc. Sure the taxis have a hard life but the VW Jettas and Santanas were holding together fine, but those Cherys are not even close to US standards of acceptable quality. Forget whatever warranty would come along with it. Like Tommy Boy said, "I can take a dump in a box and put a guarantee on it for you..."
Not that improvment can't be done, Hyundai has come a long way since entering the US market.
-Andrew
I like the competition in the small car segment, though, and I really don't think that ghastly prices will plummet down any lower than $2.25-$2.50/gal for 87 no-lead ever again. There's too many goofy reasons for futures traders to buy and sell up the price of oil...there's always a concern somewhere that they will use to artificially raise oil prices that they're not ever going to return to sane levels in price, again.
So, what is "wrong" with new Chinese subcompacts might be pieces of trim falling off, broken down engines and/or tranny's, etc. We will just have to see, but their claims of being able to make quality vehicles at 30-40% discounts will perk up some American buyers' ears, no doubt.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Anyway, I would just love it if one or two of these manufacturers would bring these models to the U.S. without dumbing them down and totally cheapening them out. They mostly sticker in the 9-10K pound range (that's British pounds) which comes out to around $16-18K U.S., or not much more than the Fit is going to sell at, and they come with equipment that their larger siblings here in the U.S. generally don't get, making the price overlap OK.
Oh yeah, and all the European models come with a tach, including the Yaris - ahem, Toyota!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
For people that are sitting one to a vehicle most of the tiny cars you see in other countries might work OK. But unlike some europeans and many Asians, americans have to have their arms length space. I was on a Japanese subway once and they actually shoved the last few people on the car pushing them into the people standing inside. Much like we think of when we think of Sardines. People here just don't want to rub shoulders with their passengers.
There may be a possibility people will change but when offered the new improved snickers bar with 25 percent more chocolate or the old bar with 25 percent less people don't care if the old style bar was all they needed. For their dollar they want the most they can get. The market people know that and I believe that is the simple reason you don't get the trick little Mini cars here.
The same issue of Car I mentioned has a critique of the new Caliber, the first mainstream Dodge to make it to Europe except the Ram (which sells in tiny numbers in that market). The biggest criticism is the same one I just levelled at the Matrix, and in which I would include the PT Cruiser. Way. Too. Much. Cheap. Hard. Plastic. And sheesh, the Caliber is yet another car (along with many trims of the Focus, I have discovered) not to have a standard tach! For goodness' sake!
Where Europeans will pay more for nicer interiors and expect a certain minimum standard of quality inside their cars, but will accept their cars small as a good trade-off, Americans are exactly the opposite. They expect little in the way of interior dressing or features, as long as their extra dollars buy more cubic feet and a bigger engine. Carmakers know this, which is why we get what we get. But I long for the day that one or two automakers will get daring and buck this trend - they wouldn't even have to do any WORK or spend any DOLLARS, except for the federalizing of the bumpers. They could just bring their European models as is from across the big water. But alas, I won't hold my breath. :mad:
And don't get me started on fuel economy either. There's not a one of the new minis we are getting this year that gets less than 45 mpg in the European urban cycle, but of course the engines the U.S. models will get are bigger than the biggest OPTIONAL engines in Europe. The Yaris has a nice little 1.3 over there and the Fit has Honda's celebrated 1.4 i-DSi or whatever the designation is. Both get to 100 km/h or 62 mph in less than 12 seconds. Not impressive by U.S. standards, but sheesh. Not turtle-slow either. Less than 2 seconds off the performance of the most popular car in America, in fact. And right on top of the performance of the gas-savers we get which Europe DOESN'T like, better known as hybrids.
Can you imagine that kind of fuel economy? Gas has just topped $2.90/gallon again in my area, and oil closed at almost $71/barrel today.
But instead, most of the automakers that are bringing B-class cars to the U.S. this year (or updating existing models) are falling into the same old tired modes: cheap out in every way possible in the hopes of keeping the price low enough to not compete with their own compact offerings. Provide tacky interiors, maximize storage space at the expense of materials, and emphasize speed over economy, but short buyers so much on standard and optional equipment that the more profitable, larger models will seem more enticing.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I can't remember now, but did the Neon have a standard tach, or did you have to buy a better trim level to get it? I remember it had a temp gauge standard.
Todd in Beerbratistan
I just bought the Elantra in December, and plan on keeping it at least 5 or 6 years, if not longer, but my next car is going to be something like a Fit, an Accent, a Rio or a Yaris. I actually feel less safe in a larger car because I can't tell quite as well where my limits are in a parking lot or on the road. I know it's counter-intuitive, especially in the land of "Bigger is Better". The few chances I've had to drive an SUV or Mini-Van, I've wondered afterward if I ran over anyone.
I will say one thing - the stats say that Americans are spending more and more of their time inside their cars, so shouldn't they be emphasizing interior quality and amenities in their buying decisions more than they do?
Image is probably the biggest problem - Americans rely on their cars too much to project an image of who they are. And I'm not talking about people who use their cars for business, like realtors. I am talking office commuters and all the rest. If you buy a little car people give you sympathetic looks even as they figure you must be a loser who just couldn't afford a "real car". :-(
But gas prices are soaring, and I remain hopeful that more and more people will get some common sense and look to smaller cars as a means of saving some gas money.
OTOH, I hold out NO hope that people will become less image-conscious or stop relying so much on their cars to demonstrate how cool, wealthy, or macho they are.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well what's wrong with a Saturn Aura Hybrid ? It get's Great Gas mileage and you don't have to ride around in a sardine can.
Rocky
If you feel claustrophobic in any car, it's not for you! What's the smallest you don't feel uncomfortable in?
And some of the smaller ones have lower death rates than some of the big ones (see the IIHS safety thread, we've been looking at them).
I agree small cars can be safe, look at the VW Beetle. OTOH bigger is better in most cases. The Beetle does make me feel claustrophobic though. I get that feeling just by looking at it, seriously
Rocky