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My problem with the small cars (and some mid sized) is the center console in relationship to gas peddle is to close . Most of the time my knee is up against the damn thing and after driving for awhile my legs start to cramp.
Another thing for you guys to remember is that on average americans have a much longer trip to work each day. I myself drive 20miles a day both ways to my job and I really don't want to stuff myself into a tiny car each day.
Besides, while I don't particularly oppose hybrids, I think they are a long-winded, overly technical solution to the real problem that automakers refuse to address: the growing weight of the fleet. If they would just lighten these new cars by 500-700 pounds apiece, and the crossovers by 1000 or so, they could improve fuel efficiency and performance overnight. But there is more profit in selling hybrids in the long run, I am sure. Call me a cynic - I know the label fits! :-)
I have read a couple of articles recently talking about how the day of the horsepower wars is over, to be followed now by an era of finding more powertrain efficiencies and lightening vehicles considerably. While I think the authors may be overly optimistic here, I certainly welcome this new age if in fact it has begun.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
For example, last May I drove to Florida with two friends, in my Intrepid. We had it packed to the gills, ran the a/c constantly, and it got around 27-28 mpg. I'd guess that between my two friends and the luggage, that probably added about 600 pounds. Well, the way I drive, 27-28 mpg is about what I get on the highway with just me in the car! So in this case at least, the extra 600 pounds ended up making a negligible difference.
Now I'm sure in stop and go driving it would be more noticeable, as it would take much more energy to get that extra mass moving. Not to mention harder on the brakes when stopping.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My Scion xA just passed 5,000 miles. No problems at all, and the first service cost me $26.06. With gas in the Bay Area now at $3.25 in some stations, I'm real happy with this choice. I'm a big guy, so I'd be the first to complain about being cramped. Not an issue unless you are really off the bell curve in size.
I am now officially carrying a running average of 40 mpg in my Echo, in around-town duties. Eases the burden of the gas prices, but keeps my 4Runner sitting in the garage a lot of the time.
Mr. Shiftright, do you track your mpg in the xA by any chance? Just wondering how close it is to the Echo's - they use the same engine, right? And BTW, on a side note, I thought Scion had that promotion that the first three oil changes were free?
The new Yaris is rated the same as the Echo was, so anyone who wants an everyday 40 mpg could be getting it tomorrow if they wanted. I imagine the Corolla gets near that figure too, as do the Fit and Civic.
The mpg is "so right" in the new subcompacts! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
What it does have its smiley good looks and 34 city, 40 highway m's per gallon.
Tomorrow it's gonna be almost 70 degrees and sunny here in Pocatello. Maybe I'll mosey over to Phil Meador Toyota and go take a test ride in the Barcelona Red or Nautical Blue base Yaris sedans.
After the test drive maybe I'll just have to buy one of them! :P
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
And hey, BTW, in a manner most traditional in the auto industry, the power mirrors windows and locks are part of the power package in the Yaris. ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If you haven't noticed I can be kind of a goofball but I do want to save gas and this Yaris will save a ton of it. I may have to make an executive decision on it. :surprise:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Actually Shifty, you'd be the second. I complained about it a couple months ago when I sat in one! :P Remember, you've mentioned that you actually LIKE a cramped seating position. There are many others who do not.
Andre is correct as well in mentioning that while some people like to feel like they have to slip into their vehicle like a pilot would a fighter jet, most people prefer to fly in comfort and stretch out. If someone would ask why I feel that way I simply point out, "look at what "most" people drive. When I went from my old Ram Charger to the Two Saturns, I almost became claustrophobic if I put anyone in my car but my wife and I. I sold the SL-2 in just over a year and got the PT just to get some room. I am not that tall yet the small cars feel like a closet rather than a master bedroom and I believe people are willing to pay more for the extra room and that is what holds mini car sales down. At least I think that reasoning is sound.
Oil changes ARE free---the charge was to rotate the tires.
How do these people make ANY money?!!!
MILEAGE: I drive highway/city and live on a "mountain", so I grind 9 miles up every night. I also drive very fast on the highway. Given all that, I'm averaging about 33 mpg on 87 octane. I think if I did a straight highway run I'd get 35 mpg and if I did straight highway at 60 mph I could get 37 mpg.
Gas Savings Compared to My Last Car? At $3 a gallon, I am saving $1,145 a year on gas.
I have a little bit of height and a lot more weight on you I fond that the xA has plenty of head room, adequate leg room (although my legs were lightly brushing the steering wheel) but the shoulder room was abysmal. That alone makes it cramped as there is not enough room between my body and the door to comfortably put my arm.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Did the know the steering wheel tilts up quite a bit. This takes care of my leg problem.
One positive thing I can say about cars of the xA's size and basic configuration (with the wheels pushed out to the edges of the vehicle)-- they make *great* city cars.
Yes I had the steering wheel all the way up, even so my legs were ever so slightly brushing against the wheel.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well I'm not THAT big...here's an old picture my grandmother took of me on the day I bought my DeSoto, posing with it and the people I bought it from.
I'm guessing that most car ads throughout history have used small people, simply to make the cars look bigger and roomier than they are. And not just small cars, but big cars, pickups, etc. I think in this old picture, because of us standing next to it and giving a size reference, it actually makes the DeSoto look smaller than it is, especially in the width department.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I'm just kind of diggin' the new Yaris sedan because for me, it's a Toyota design breakthrough. I have enjoyed the Scion xA and tC body designs and thought about a possible Scion purchase quite a bit.
This new 2007 Toyota sedan (base model w/the Conveninece Package) has got me wonderin' about a possible Toyota purchase for me, which would be my first Japanese car. I've bought two South Korean rigs already and have loved them both. The Yaris has an actual Toyota design team that left their kid's Etch-A-Sketch at home and went to work trying to build a neat small sedan bodystyle. It worked.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Until I bought an Echo, I never really noticed these cars on the road, but there are a surprising number out there. I have also noticed a lot of the older Geo Metros on the roads lately. I wonder if people are pulling out their third cars for commuting with the price of gas so elevated.
And now, with the Fit and the Yaris on the ground, we have the Versa just around the corner, and the new Aveo within a few months. Excitement is in the air...
:-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I hope to improve upon the mpgs with this choice compared to the Yaris due to the somewhat lower weight. I usually get better than epa estimates for mpgs because I drive like an old lady.
I also hope to see many more baby cars on the road replacing behemoths in the near future.
I agree that the styling on the Yaris is more appealing. I would also have appreciated the utility of a hatch and a choice of color (white instead of dark green!). But for $7K I am willing to make some sacrifices.
Cars are basically against my religion but Katrina made me rethink being completely carless. I like to have it there for inclement weather and emergencies. And a used Echo was about as uncar of a car as I could get, while still maintaining decent reliability.
I love it. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Driving the lot at my local Toyota dealer before they opened this AM I noticed that they are putting all these "Clear the Lot" sale signs in all the cars, including the Barcelona Red base Yaris sedan in 5-speeds and with the Convenience Package. It has airbags front, side and rear side curtains. Sells for $14,589. I wonder if this "Clear the Lot" sale is really a sale or just a gimmick to get people to the lot. He has sold the Yaris S sedan and another automatic trannied Yaris sedan already. That's just two sales in about a month or six weeks. Here the rage is still huge SUV's and pickups. There are truckloads of gross GM cars all over and sprinklings of Toyota's, Kia's, Hyundai's, Honda's, Nissan's, etc.
It seems to me a lot of folks are driving older cars here, the majority actually. This is not a "high-wage" area, it's a "Right to Work" state, Idaho. Whatever that means, but the wages are not high here. The used car market thusly flourishes.
The "new car" smell and the freshly painted surfaces are hard to ignore, though, huh? To be continued.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I love the thought of living in a rural area but not the thought of the high transport costs for that once- or twice-weekly trip into town for supplies.
The "new car" smell and the freshly painted surfaces are hard to ignore, though, huh?
No, there is nothing on the market that currently appeals enough. If the Yaris had 45 city/60 highway, yes. If the Fit had the same mpgs, yes. But I am extremely disappointed that neither has any efficiency gains compared to predecessors. The Civic HX was a better deal but they don't make them any more. If I could have found one of those in my area, I would have bought one instead of my little Echo (which by the way is a great little car: it seems I am mostly coasting and hardly using any gas at all).
We got 31MPG first tank, then down to 29-30 for a few tanks, now? Avg 31-33MPH (mainly) hwy. Have gotten 34 once or twice.
Never lower than 31MPG,the past year, even in cold, winter weather.
Only issue was at 8000 or so miles, the passenger side wiper arm would not go down to normal resting position, Scion fixed it, then a month later, same thing.
They fixed it a 2nd time. Since then, no problems.
You might be interested in the upcoming(if they make it, or it comes to USA) Kia ED 3 door sporty car, 200HP, V6, about same length as the Yaris sedan(169+ inches total length).
If you want to see a sketch, and info, go to future vehicles, and see the Kia coupe thread.
You mean slender nulliparous female vegans who ride bikes, such as myself.
People have mentioned the Civic, Sentra and Corolla but most don't think of Civics as Sub-compact because they have grown to the size many consider minimum. The tC talked about earlier is the size we consider compact. The Echo is a sub compact. Of course the 600 cc cars in Japan and some parts of Europe as Sub-Compacts as well.
What is wrong with sub- compacts? For people like Nippon the answer is nothing. For the vast majority of the buying public the problem is image. The sub compact has been viewed as a starter car, and second or even third car. Some are promoting it as a youth's car. The comercials I have seen or TV look to be targeted at the Game Boy generation. You would be just what many people expect to be driving an Echo, and to a degree a Prius. The other main demographic that embraces minimalists vehicles like the Sub-compact are retired people.
The image of sub-compacts can be summed up by a comment made to me by one of the women working for me the other day. She drives a Acura. One of her fellow employees was walking out to his car to go to lunch, a rather tall thin man, and he got into his Echo. The woman turned to me, she is only about 5'2", and said, "I don't know why he bought the little car. He looks so silly in it." If anyone believes image isn't important all one needs to do is look at how successful the after market parts companies are doing.
If we are asking what is wrong with these sub-compacts to people like Nippon, shifty or yourself the answer may be, "nothing". However to the Accord/Camry generation they are either just too small or even less appealing. When the Accord was introduced to the American buying public it was about as small as a xA, maybe even smaller. Every time it added weight or size it sold better. After a while a bit more power would boost sales till Accords and Camry's are the only cars that stopped SUV's from taking over the transportation world in the US altogether.
It is possible that Madison Avenue could find a way to change the image of sub-compacts if it were proven to be profitable for a manufacturer to do so. But if anyone expects a change of heart in the buying public's eyes to a more simple, peaceful, environmentally friendly attitude I believe they will have to wait till the core of the earth freezes over. As long as the image of a female vegan riding a bike draws a smirk at a dinner party, when mentioned between friends, sub-compacts will have to suffer an image problem. IMHO.
They don't mind beind dolts and contributing to young boys in the fighting in the middle east coming back with metal tubes instead of arms and legs. They don't mind destroying the biosphere. I wish they had their own planet to destroy. I certainly don't want to see them destroying mine.
Oh, if only there were any sort of instant environmental karma in this world.
nulliparous: A woman who has never given birth.
Just in case I was not the only clueless one.
The ONLY objection or "negative" feedback I get is the perception of 'safety'. They sometimes say "WHat happens if this thing gets hit by my Range Rover?" to which I reply "what happens if your Range Rover gets hit by a Semi?"
To give you a comparison that marika brought up peripherally....when I was a kid, ANY adult on a bicycle was depicted in movies as batty, eccentric or someone kids should run away from....now an adult riding a bicycle is often admired---at least in big cities, and nobody thinks twice about them.
My impression is that the "image" is shifting, ever so slowly, and that the biggest fattest cars will soon have to face the ridicule once cast upon the smallest cars.
And these perceptions and judgments will shift back and forth through the decades, too!
Right now, I think small is going to be beautiful again, for a while at least.
i live in the northeast, so hills and cold weather.
only 1 drive longer than 40 miles one way in the 2 years i have had it. has some nice stuff like power moonroof and heated seats. pzev rated too. 14.4 out the door.
My Kia has plenty of space when I fold the seats down - I just brought 500lbs of dog food back from Chicago last weekend. I still could see over top of all of it even.
Todd in Beerbratistan
You mean slender nulliparous female vegans who ride bikes, such as myself.
Na actually as a whole we are getting taller and wider. Hopefully in the next century we can change that to just taller .
Mini.
At some point in the past, before the "SUV" became commonplace, people wondered why anyone would buy an off-road vehicle. They soon became the new wagon.
Perception can be changed by outside sources (like high gas prices) or inside, by just changing the word itself. Once the auto industry realizes how much impact sub-compacts can have on brand loyalty and profits, maybe they will put more thought and energy into design and overall feel.
As most sub-compacts focus on mpg, there are those people that want a little more (like handling, steering feel, aural sounds, etc.) Some driving excitment. Remember, performance is a measure of power-to-weight. Which is why many Mazda Miata drivers have such fun. Big v8 powered sports cars cannot be 'opened up' on public roads safely.
I love my Saab Viggen (just outside the compact car segment) for its utility, mpg and fun factor, all things I 'perceive' missing from sub-compacts today. Dodge has the the Caliber, a great looking vehicle. Hopefully others will follow, from a styling stand point, not more jellybeans riding on 13's.
I have a friend who lives on the other side of the bay, some 20 miles from here. Went to see them today, they had other friends there as well, and it came up that I lived where I do, and their comment was "geez, doesn't the gas price kill you with that much driving?". Before I could even utter a word, my friend chimed in with "nah, he's got a little Toyota and hardly uses any gas at all - he was smart." She then turned to her husband and asked him when they were going to get a smaller car for saving gas. It was funny - it led to a whole discussion during which several people present learned for the first time that many subcompacts are faster on the road than the most popular midsize cars, that most are available (or standard) with all the current safety features including a million airbags and ABS and are rated highly for safety by NHTSA and IIHS, and even that they can be pretty comfortable - one couple actually came outside to sit in my car and were duly impressed at how much space they had.
It really comes down to a question of breaking an age-old stereotype that no longer applies, and then I think these little cars could hit the mainstream. Gas prices will probably be the driving force behind that transition, if it happens at all. But then, look at all the "fate of GM" threads on this board - the stereotype that so many people accept of GM's poor quality has survived to plague GM long after the bad old days have ended, and may persist for a while yet, in fact. Same with the subcompact stereotypes of "cheap, shoddy, cramped, unsafe", and whatever else folks can summon up.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
A million airbags? You mean they are wrapped in bubble wrap?
Sorry couldn't resist :P
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The image I am talking about is the one of not being able to afford to drive what we want but what we have to. Remember the very old VW comercials? Remember that even while they were very successful they depicted someone driving one while they saved up for something they wanted?
Why worry about image? Even if I don't worry about it that won't make it less important in long term sales. If you look at what even the advocates of small cars are saying today, even my good friend Nippon, what image do you get from, "well maybe $3.50 or $4.00 a gallon will make the small car more acceptable"?
Image is a strong force in the eyes of the buying public. Desire and wants is another strong force or tool that can be used by the advertisers to drive people into more profitable buying patterns. More people may buy sub compacts this round of gas gouging but if they find a solution that the public accepts, improved economy or better vehicle prices or stabilizes fuel prices, I predict that history will indeed repete itself and any new car in the sub-compact class today will grow in size and weight till all the xAs and rios are Accord size.
I have been a bit of a history buff most of my life and image has been a driving force in human nature for the more than 2000 years I have been interested in studying. People will conserve for national interest for a period of time to be successful or help the home land. But after a while they self indulge and go back to wants. I just don't see people ever wanting basic when they can afford better and that is the image small car manufacturers have to face.
You are right, and there is a new generation that is starting to buy cars. I have often asked myself if this generation is the one that will change history and get back to basics. But to be honest, if I knew I would live to see it I sure wouldn't bet a paycheck that they will be more interested in a small car with a 109 HP if they can have one with 200 or even 250. Not when they won't even leave a stock sound system in a car but have to get one with 500 to 1000 wats. That reminds me, I need to look into a better sound system for my car. The cat back makes it harder to hear some of my tunes.
I myself do not feel like I am bridging some huge chasm when I jump from an xA into a Porsche...oh, yeah, there's plently of difference, but it's not like going from a Pinto to a Cadillac or a VW Bug into a Jaguar used to be in the 1970s.
I could have bought say a Mini for $10,000 more and get a lot more fun and performance, but I would have lost fuel economy and taken a plunge into unreliability hell, both of which defeated my purpose.
Would I like 250HP in an xA? No, completely unnecessary and even detrimental. Would I like 150HP? Yes, and I would sacrifice some economy to get that---but not too much.
As for "what we can afford", let's be honest---unless you paid cash for it, everyone who buys a car on a loan can't really afford it.
I did not say or mean that high-priced gas will make subcompacts "acceptable" to more people. What I meant was that the high-priced gas may cause more people to consider a subcompact for their next purchase, enough to try one out, at which point I expect them to be very pleasantly surprised, and to come to realize what they have been missing because of an old and now-inaccurate stereotype.
At least, I hope it will go along those lines! :-P
I do believe it will, in many if not most cases. These are not your father's subcompacts...
The older generation grew up in the land of milk and honey - everything was plentiful and cheap, seemingly infinite in supply. The kids today are growing up learning about recycling, ecosystems, the finite supply of some of the resources we depend on most and the effect of our actions on the environment. This does not depend on the popularity of the environmental movement; rather, this is merely the effect of a great many advancements in scientific understanding. When their 50 years of car-buying comes around, it may no longer be such the desirable goal to buy the biggest, most luxurious, gas-guzzlingest vehicle you can afford the note on...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You have to admit you are giving credit to high gas prices just to get someone into a sub compact to begin to be pleasantly surprised. What does that tell us as a society? You and I or even shifty don't count because we look at vehicles differently. I might think it would be a hoot to get a GEO metro as a third car. I even have a friend that has one. They can be picked up dirt cheep right now and they get great mileage. But not as a first or only car and not as a car for my wife. The xA interests me but not with 108 HP. Not when we can get 155 hp in a Suzuki for about the same price, 14K. I just have never come to grips with seeing people that are willing to pay as much or more for less. New and improved almost always offer more. A new improved computer is more powerful with a bigger screen. Even new and improved tooth paste comes with 25 percent more in the tube.
To be quite frank, I work with a fairly large Southern California school district with several high Schools. I do not believe for a second we are raising a new generation of environmentally friendly consumers. Disposable goods are their mantra. Just my observation. They will dump their Gameboy for the newest Gameboy without blinking an eye. And what good is the old game boy? Nada as they say. It gets tossed. They may be getting to the point of rejecting the values of the Boomer generation but they are light years away from being tree huggers or caring about the generation to follow. Once again simply observation.
I think we should see a trend pretty soon with these new sub compacts. I will be the first to admit this is a whole new market and a whole new group of buyers. It is also more than one generation removed from me. But is it a generation trying to get back to basics? Trying to live a simply life? I will believe that when they stop selling NOS, Cat back systems, 20 inch wheels and 250 hp compact cars and big sound systems to high school kids. I am not holding my breath however. You and shifty could be right and the world is about to turn around and people are about to give up wanting more than the other guy. I just haven't talked to many yet.
I don't, either. I guess that every previous generation thinks the next one is a catastrophe but in this case, I see on the whole, a group of science-illiterate consumers that have no concept of environmentally friendly or responsible living,
There are always exceptions, but that's mostly what I see. I'd love to be wrong.
A Geo Metro is nothing like an xA and 108 HP is plenty to have fun. The Suzuki is an interesting point, to me, because here we have a car with MORE HP but less fun to drive than some of the other subcompacts.
If anything, the new and modern subcompacts allow the young person to buy their first new car without crushing payments, and still not have to writhe in humble agony.
But that aside---one can still be a venal, narcissistic youth completely oblivious to environmental or global issues, and still come to the right conclusion, because buying a more economical car will give them the extra cash they need for some of their toys or other pleasures.
I think the most brilliant products, like the most brilliant musicians, CREATE their audience rather than cater to an old one.
We are all going to change as our supply of cheap oil is diminished. On a 1000 year time line, human use of oil is going to look like a blip.
Saved $6 today, going 120 miles, to pick up at the airport, driving the Fit over the Oddy, fun too.
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/