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Lets be honest here. How many "believe" the American consumer is ready to give up what they have to pay for less? Or better yet, lets ask ourselves. If we were walking through the Mall of America and two cars were sitting there offered for free. They would pay the gas for a year and all you had to do was agree not to sell the car for a year and a half. One car was a G-35, or BMW, or Chrysler, pick you bigger car. The other was a Sub compact. What do we feel most people would pick if they would get the keys right then and there? My contention is that manufacturers know full well what people want because that is what people are willing to pay for.
But then again the best selling vehicle in the US is a pickup which sells about twice as many as the best selling car. So it should be easy to see what people want.
As for the fact that trucks now outsell cars, that's literally true, but not by much. And you can argue plausibly that "loophole" trucks like the PT Cruiser and Magnum, plus all minivans (now that the Astro/Safari have been axed), as well as a majority of crossovers are all really cars.
About the F-series pickup being the top seller, again true, but consider that there are currently only 5 large pickups on the market (6 if you count the Chevy/GMC entries separately), compared to a gazillion car and SUV models. Plus the F-series comes in a bewildering variety of cab types, bed lengths, GVW ratings, etc, it's no wonder it's no. 1 (and has been since 1982).
But you gotta watch that Camry -- Toyota's gunning for half a million sales this year, and probably will achieve it, which would be the most sales for a single car model in 20 years I understand. (Was the late, somewhat great Olds Cutlass Ciera the last?)
So then how did the buses, delivery trucks, and other large service vehicles make it around those European city streets? Don't tell me they made those tiny in Europe, too! :P
Now my experience with Europe is limited to Paris, so that might skew my perceptions. After all, they lined all the roads going into Paris with trees so invading armies could march in the shade, so maybe they made the roads a bit wider so they could get their tanks in more easily, as well?
I'd imagine the main reason a big car wouldn't make it in Europe has less to do with being able to drive it than where you put it when you're done. Parking spots are going to be tinier, and land space is at a premium, so it's not like every single dwelling is going to have room to build a 4-car garage.
Aren't cars in general (not just big ones) considered much more of a luxury item in Europe than they are here?
But as someone pointed out earlier the manufacturers wouldn't build so many SUVs and F-series trucks if people didn't buy them. People didn't buy the Echo and it is being replaced. People didn't buy the Baja and it more than likely will be dropped as well. So small cars and trucks even have been offered but people aren't buying. At least not to the degree they are buying larger vehicles. "Why"? It doesn't matter how we feel about a type of car if the consumer isn't impressed enough to shell out the money for one. I believe the Camry is just another proof of how people feel about what they drive. Every year it is bigger, or at least seems to be, and more often than not is heavier and has more Horse Power. I can't remember the last time I saw a commercial telling explaining to the buyer that the new model, whatever it is, is smaller and less powerful than the old model can you? ( Well I do admit that they did that with the H-3 but I wonder if that counts?) We always come back to two or three things, image is one of them. Sub Compacts will have a hard time of giving people the image of success. Sure some of us might not care but aren't we labeled as Car nuts anyway? Haven't people been warned not to talk to us about cars at one time or another?
Nothing is wrong with sub compacts if you like sub compacts. Nothing is wrong with sub compacts if you have a life style that allows you to use one the majority of the time. So the question would end with some people liking sub compacts and some not. It could end there. But if we ask why people don't seem to like, no lets say love sub compacts? The answer comes down to what makes Americans different from Japanese and Europeans? The size of our country, the attitude of our people and how we view our freedoms. To answer the question we might have to ask another. What makes SUVs, Mini Vans, Pickups and mid sized cars more popular than sub compacts? Maybe that would answer the question we have been debating for so many weeks?
Europe taxes cars pretty heavily don't they? They have also taxed gas into the three dollar range long ago.
this is a pretty good read:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/motoring/2002825051_smallcars24.html
I have a niece that is "gen Y" - she has wanted a convertible Beetle since forever. Now that she is getting ready to get her license, nothing has changed. Not that she will be getting one any time soon unless she gets a job, but that's a whole different story! :-)
I also have a friend whose brother is on the old end of gen Y (he's 24 now), and drives a Corolla. He has thought once or twice about selling it, as it is already 7 years old and over 100K miles, but he says all he really wants in a car is cheap and practical - sound like a description of many of the new subcompacts?! He likes hatchbacks, says his next car will be one.
Whenever carmakers shoot for a target demographic, it is a sure sign of failure 99 times out of 100. But this new wave of subcompact cars has something for everyone, seems to me. So whatever the demographics of the people that end up buying them, I think most of them will sell well.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
For example, if you had a choice between a free Mercedes CL65 AMG and a Lincoln Continental (or a BMW M5 vs a Dodge Magnum, etc, etc, etc)...
... I think most would choose the Mercedes, even though it is the smaller car.
The biggest factor in choosing a car is capability. Capability in performance, handling, cargo, etc, etc, etc.
Sure, you can have a car that seats nine people, but if it takes 23 seconds to reach highway speeds, will people buy it?
No, they'll go for the smaller car with better performance. (unless they've got a family of 23, though)
:shades:
In this scenario, I personally would take the car that I could get the most money from on resale. I think a lot of folks might do the same, but jmho.
EUROPE in the 60s--- yes, Andre I think you're closer to it---it's the PARKING that really limited car size---although I was just in Rome last year and when a delivery truck stopped on some of those streets, that's it...nobody was "going around them". They all backed up (with remarkably patience I might add).
Living in California, which is (arguably) a bellwhether for trends, I think yes indeed the big gasoline guzzler is going to die off in America, finally and for good, as the realities set in. Whether we'll have big hydrogen or atomic guzzlers in the future, I don't know.
Well, yes. you don't have to eat greasy meatballs but in general people don't go to buffets if they are only hungry for a light snack, no? You pay for the buffet and try to maximize value..orat least a lot of people do.
My thought process would be that if I could get the car, have gas paid for a year, and sell it after another half year, I would take the $30k in proceeds and buy a more practical car at that time and pocket the $10-15k difference. Who knows, maybe there is a 60mpg diesel or hybrid available at that time.
Kids don't buy new cars.. .they buy used ones..
Every 16-24 year old in the country might want a Honda Fit, but probably less than 2% of that demographic can afford to buy one..
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Maybe in Cincinnati, not in Chicagoland. Locally, about half the kids are driving **NEW** vehicles ... and the parents are driving the old cars.
I have sold a couple cars from my fleet that were bought for employee's kids but were rejected by the kid so mom and dad are driving them ...
The Echo is definitely weird, not good looking. Not outright ugly, I wouldn't have said. But not styled to sell well, that's for sure. I wonder if the folks who did the design still have jobs at Toyota...
OTOH, the Yaris hatch (not the sedan so much) makes me smile whenever I see it. I dunno, I think one of those is in my future somewhere...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://www.iihs.org/brochures/pdf/sfsc.pdf
Smaller vehicles have higher occupant death rates, any way you cut it. What I find interesting though, is that death rates tend to level out once you go past 3500 lbs for cars and 4500 lbs for SUVs and pickups.
What I find most fascinating, however, is that if you select a given weight (say 3500 lbs.), cars (including minivans and station wagons) have significantly lower death rates than SUVs, which in turn have significantly lower death rates than pickups.
Makes some sense in that SUVs have rollover problems that partially offset their weight advantage, and I can't think of single pickup that has standard electronic stability control.
It is acknowledged, however, that not all differences in driver demographics and vehicle use patterns have been accounted for.
For me personally, this chart sums up why my wife and I each primarily drive a 4-cylinder Camry with side airbags -- reasonable size, reasonable safety, and reasonable fuel economy. And outstanding reliability. In sum, a great value.
I don't give a whit about "image" or keeping up with the Joneses. Most of the cars I have had in the past weren't exactly "lookers" -- check my profile. Some, like the Volvo 240, would be considered downright ugly by most.
Toyota is going to be unstoppable this year, what with the new Camry, RAV4, FJ Cruiser, and Yaris.
Once upon a time, GM could do this....
I did a quick calc based on 50 years of driving.
Approximate chance of death in a crash:
.625% for lightest car
.675% for lightest pickup
.5% for lightest SUV
We don't have per miles traveled data.
Muses:
Pickups may travel more miles because they are used in work. Some of the nature of this work may contribute a higher rate as well. Also, weren't pickups not required to have the same safety equipment as cars? Somehow I have that stuck in the back of my mind. Pickups are driven by a higher percentage of males.
Larger cars may tend to have older drivers who are more experienced and less prone to drive wildly and/or impaired. They may also drive fewer miles.
SUVs do well despite the "rollover factor." Could some of this have to do with the fact that SUVs may be for the most part newer than other classes of vehicles? One surmises that all that metal does seem to help.
By 1999, pickups, vans, and SUVs all had to meet essentially the same safety standards as cars. All would have had dual frontal airbags by then, for example.
Most pickups from what I understand are now used as personal use vehicles, not for work purposes (as you go higher up the GVWR scale, the proportion used for work increases).
It is true that smaller pickups are more often driven by young males, and larger cars by older people. However, the statisticians tried to remove some of the effects of age and gender.
Miles traveled is difficult to tease out by make and model; aggregate figures are more readily available. And not all miles are equal: a mile on a 70-mph rural freeway at 10 am on a weekday morning is generally a lot safer than a mile on a nearby 55-mph 2-lane rural road at 2 am on a Saturday night.
more on pickups:
http://www.cars.com/go/features/2004overview/pickups/safety.jsp
"I don't think it's a car for the U.S. market," analyst George Magliano, director of automotive research in the business forecasting firm Global Insight's Manhattan office, said of the subcompact genre.
It kind of reminds me of another guy named George. :sick:
james
hopefully they let you drive it once in a while without having to put gas in it.
Nice looking rides -- your Intrepid in the background, right? Is that your house -- looks good too!
But...ahem, someone needs to get out the lawnmower!
In keeping with the ideas of small vehicles though, here's something kinda scary, a pic of the Xterra with the Tracker my buddy traded in. Shows just how much the Cute-Ute has grown over the years! :surprise:
VW Polo, all over the place down there. Kinda funky looks, but a very nice interior in a tiny car.
Mercedes A-class, a cute tiny little thing called the A190 - is that a 4-cylinder engine in there?
Nissan Micra - now HERE'S a truly small car!
Suzuki Swift, looks fast, I bet it IS fast.
And yes, the Yaris 5-door that Toyota refuses to bring here because it would interfere with sales of its precious xA. They would sell so many of these things if they would just get over themselves and bring it here. It is much more logical than the 3-door they did bring, which forces all the hatchback buyers into a car with only two passenger doors.
I am hoping very much that they make the Ractis tall wagon the next xA, and do it soon. Then they could bring the Yaris 5-door here to add to the line-up, and offer two options that wouldn't steal sales from each other so much.
Saw a study in Autoweek that said that the vast majority of people would downsize their vehicle either right away or with the next purchase if gas reaches $3.75/gallon. Well, I paid $3.45/gallon when I was coming through L.A., so that price is not far off....could it be the start of a subcompact boom? :-)
(OK, OK boaz, I know it's probably not going to be a boom. I'm just for looking for automakers to make some good money on sales of these things, which should ensure their future here for a while)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Once people got hooked on SUV's in the 90's, I don't think they will ever go back. CUV's (cross overs) will probably bleed off more car sales than SUV sales.
The main thing holding back SUV sales right now is uncertainty about whether gas will stabilize in the 2.69-3.00 range or go significantly higher. Once it has settled down people will revert to pretty much their old buying habits. (I have to think that the residual anger against Ford over the tire blow-out, rollover fiasco is hurting them, even though they have a much improved Expedition. The Chevy Tahoe, according to reports, is selling well, but would sell better if gas weren't an issue right now.)
On the other hand, the second, third, and fourth cars owned by the typical American family may well actually be cars instead of SUV's.
The main appeal of small cars is their economical buy in price. For an economical buy in price, you get the comfort of a new car with a warranty, which appeals to a lot of people. They are also really cheap, at least from manufacturers that have to sell them to raise their average CAFE fuel economy. They aren't so cheap from Honda.
I have the May 2006 C&D where the 7 $15,000 compacts are compared and the Fit is way out ahead. There has been one show up at my local Honda dealer a mile away. It was grey, though, but was a 5-speed model. It had the dreaded 2nd sticker so it's sticker price was something around $16,495 or so. I'm thinking that is at least $2,000 too much.
The 2nd sticker added some $1,900 to the price! There's no way. They want novelty buyers to get the first American Honda Fits! They can have 'em!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
My fave Kia is improving all the time, though. This latest "corruption" scandal has them holding up on the new plant construction in West Point, GA, also.
The S.Korean car companies seem to be embroiled in various disputes, either amongst themselves or their government or their labor groups pert-near constantly. :confuse:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Honda Fit may be trying to point that out in there new commercial. They show a small car driving down the road being swallowed by a larger car. Much like the pictures we have of small fish being swallowed by larger fish. Several times Honda shows bigger and bigger cars swallowing smaller cars. I believe this is a great commercail because it does show how people moved from small cars to bigger cars and it shows it from a Japanese manufacturers perspective of what has sold in their own company over the years. Just before the punch line of the commercial the picture is of a stylish SUV looking vehicle swallowing a stylish looking mini van. You can see the progression that the consumer has pushed the manufacturer towards. The last shot is of a Fit swallowing the SUV almost as if it were the next step in the automotive evolution. While I may not believe sub compacts are the next step I do see a need for them. But without a major mindset change in the American culture the sub compact is doomed to be an alternative to public transportation or an alternative to human powered transportation, walking or riding a bike. High fuel prices will help keep sub compacts in the public's eye. Low cost will allow sub compacts a place in the automotive future. But even granting that you have to admit is is highly unlikely they will ever be viewed much differently than they have always been viewed. They are viewed as something to move up from or as an accessory to your other car. They were viewed as a stop gap in the 70s and left behind as soon as people felt they could move away from them. I don't know if that perception can be changed based on how we as Americans think.
You can see this trend somewhat already in the bewildering speed of new product development and turnover....iPods don't get "bigger", they get more features.
So, too, will this happen with subcompacts I think.
The old VW bug marketed in the late 50s/early 60s is a great example of the smashing success you can have with a small quality product that actualy ridiculed bigness. The times were right for it, and those times might be here again, who knows?
i didn't check out your link until much later after i posted.
i thought you were refering to a 'Fit', not an realizing it was an 'xterra'!
The new sub compact as a whole don't offer the advantages that were offered by the VW and early Corolla. You don't save 30 to 50 percent on purchase price over the next step up in the automotive world. I remember my first bug cost about 2/3 of what a Chevy 2 or Falcon did at the time. The Fit and Yaris don't same the customer 33 percent over a Civic or a Corolla nor do they get close to twice the fuel mileage like my VW did over a Chevy or Ford. And I don't believe the new Sub Compacts are easier to repair than a Compact or even a mid sized car or even a SUV.
As an example. Here on Edmunds we can compare choices.
For the fit.
EPA Mileage Estimates: 33 mpg / 38 mpg; Range in Miles: 356.4 mi. / 410.4 mi
Buzzy at high speeds, small fuel tank.
Invoice. $13,272
Civic
EPA Mileage Estimates: 30 mpg / 38 mpg; Range in Miles: 396 mi. / 501.6 mi.
Invoice. $13,327
Corolla
EPA Mileage Estimates: 32 mpg / 41 mpg; Range in Miles: 422.4 mi. / 541.2 mi.
Invoice. $13,047
Yaris.
$10,292
EPA Mileage Estimates: 34 mpg / 40 mpg; Range in Miles: 377.4 mi. / 444 mi.
Invoice. $10,292
The fit gives me nothing extra for my savings of $50.00 and fuel mileage is about the same even if the Fit is shorted in range.
The Yaris saves me money in basic trim but once again doesn't help in range of fuel mileage. In fact I lose mileage on the highway.
So you might see why I don't view this as the second coming of the Bug.
Thank goodness because I still have a bad taste in my mouth from dealing with VW over parts for those Veedubs. :mad:
There's no benefit though, to making electronic equipment bigger. Unless it's something like a bigger screen on a tv. Electronic equipment gets smaller because the technology allows it to do so.
Cars can only get so small, unless we find a way to shrink the people that ride in them, or start getting people to ride on top of each other. Or start making the doors and other parts of the car so paper-thin that it's not safe to ride in.
Also, your Ipod or Razor phone doesn't have to protect you from the soccer Moms and trophy wives in their big, hulking SUVs. :P
large families (more than 4)
needing a vehicle to haul big things REGULARLY (plywood, gravel, towing a big boat)
than there is no reason for a car bigger than say today's most intelligently designed "mid-size" SUVs or sedans.
So as gas prices go up and traffic gets worse and parking gets worse, today's "big" cars will disappear (for most people) and the "mid-size" become the "big" and the "compact" becomes the midsize and the "subcompact" becomes the "compact".
Everything moves up a notch and the music stops and the big fat gas guzzlers leave the room without a chair.
Oversize-ness is, IMHO, one of the greatest negatives in our society, in cars, houses and...waistlines....and many MANY excellent car designers and architects and (doctors :P _ will tell you so up front.
Why not make a car (like the Invacar produced for disabled British veterans) so that it is comfortable one or two riders?
90% of my driving is solo - and I believe that is the case for quite a number of people.
Most of the new subcompacts are so difficult for me to get into as I have long legs.
It is almost 300 pounds lighter than a Civic (isn't it? where did that 161 figure come from?), making it more agile (especially on the larger rims and tires of the Sport). It is a hatchback, making it much more versatile for cargo than the Civic. And oh yeah, you save those couple of hundred bucks! No, wait, you save $1000 or more when you get as close as possible to comparably equipped. Hmmm...
It is as fast as the Civic owing to its shorter gearing, which, unfortunately yes, causes fuel economy to only be about the same.
It is also distinctive rather than ubiquitous, in much the same way that the Yaris and the Corolla relate to each other.
But its main advantage comes in its smaller size, which is a large one (large advantage, small size that is! :-)) for city driving and parking.
In the end, Shifty will be proved correct - don't forget, 80% of all Americans live in metro areas, only 20% outside the cities, and that number is on the rise. And the cities are just getting more and more crowded.
The only question in my mind is when "the end" will be.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The extra HP etc means very little to me as I do 100% of my driving in the city. Any extra burst of speed just makes me reach that next red light that much quicker.
Cross shopped the Fit, Matrix, Mazda 3 Sport and the Yaris 5 door. Didn't even bat an eye towards the 3 Sedan, Corolla or Civic.
Which basically means that you're saying there IS still a need for a "bigger" car. Beside, many people associate size with status, and think they need all that bulk, even if they don't.
If you make a cell phone or an Ipod too big, it gets associated with being clunky, outdated, and low-tech. That's not necessarily the case with cars. A bigger car is often easier to get into and out of, usually rides better, often has a more stable feel, etc.
Also, you gotta realize that the world is not constant. Sure, traffic and parking is getting worse in many areas. However, in my case I'd say in 99% of my driving, whether I'm in my Intrepid, my '79 NYer, my pickup, of a Yaris, it would make no difference. Unless I'm going into some areas of DC where parking is rare and tight, it simply doesn't make a difference.
Parking spaces are usually made big enough for a standard-sized pickup truck to fit in, and that's something that, by-and-large, isn't going to change in the foreseeable future. For one thing, even if cars are short compared to what they used to be in the 70's, they're not that much narrower, and their doors are often actually LONGER, so they need just as wide of a space to get their doors open comfortably.
The one unknown is gasoline. However, I remain convinced that larger cars and trucks will never fully go away. They'll just become more fuel-efficient. Case in point, the new Chevy Tahoe, which gets an EPA rating of something like 16/22. That's nothing to brag about compared to something like a Yaris or FIT. But think back 30 years ago for a minute. The Tahoe easily outweighs any car Detroit built 30 years ago, except maybe for something like one of those Fleetwood Broughams. And with acceleration, it would probably outrun anything short of a Duster 360. And about the only domestic cars that would get that kind of economy would've been a compact with a 6-cyl (that's about what my '69 Dart got).
Well, if you told someone in 1976 that one day there'd be a 5000 lb+ vehicle that could do 0-60 in around 8 seconds or less AND get 16/22, they'd probably tell you that you were full of something! That would've been the stuff of science fiction 30 years ago, yet now it's a reality, and we're not even that impressed with it!
Just imagine what things the future might hold.
From the Edmunds new car site. Invoice on a manual, you prefer, Civic DX , Invoice-$13,327. Fit from the same site, Invoice-$13,272. Both are base models. Weight from the same site, Civic-Curb Weight: 2593 lbs. Fit-Curb Weight: 2432 lbs. Is my math wrong? :confuse: So I get the same mileage for a smaller car? hatch or not? And this sounds like a deal? The base Fit at that base price comes with these features. "he 2007 Honda Fit is a subcompact four-door hatchback currently available in two trim levels. Base versions come standard with 14-inch wheels; electric-assist power steering; two-speed front wipers and a rear wiper; air conditioning; power windows and locks; and a CD player." The base Civic? I don't think you get the CD player. But Edmunds gives it raves anyway. " What Edmunds.com Says
Just when the competition thought it had the Civic marked, Honda brings out its latest version. Refined and packed with features, the 2006 Honda Civic is once again a top choice for compact car shoppers." Move up to the spot model Fit you say? Yes but you can also move up with the 197HP Civic SI.
I am sorry to anyone who thought this was a Ft only discussion. It is a Sub Compact discussion I thought and Fit is only one of them.
Nippon, you do make a case for small I must admit. As long as you live we will have a market for a small, basic, manual lightweight sub compact. And if the figures are correct and Americans are driving in excess of 20K a year it is hard to believe that is mostly city driving. But remember the LA and Inland Empire perspectives are a lot different from the Bay Area. We drive a lot further on average just to get to work. ( Forgot to check on the 4 door Civic and you are correct, it weighs Curb Weight: 2628 lbs. or 196 pounds more and the invoice price is $13,509 so the Fit is based at $237.00 less. Still with a smaller car and the same fuel mileage. Remember very few Americans are willing to pay the same price for a whopper and a whopper Junior even if they are made just alike. That is going to be a hard mind set to change.