What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

boaz47

something close to a sub compact in my book.

The Swift is now as it was in the past a Sub Compact. Much like the Geo Metro was.

lhanson

If it results in the lowest overall cost in getting from point A to point B, it is exciting to me. I don't care what it looks like. I guess that's why I settled for a Blazing Blue MT Yaris Hatchback.

nippononly

Well, there's the REAL Suzuki Swift (engineered by Suzuki in Japan and sold all over the world), and then there's the rebadged Korean Swift that I guess Suzuki is under contractual agreement to sell in some places including Canada, if bumpy is correct.

What they should do is bring the REAL Swift to the States, where it would kick butt in the emerging supersegment of subcompacts! :-) :-)

kernick

I guess if you don't care what your car looks like, you wouldn't care it was "Blazing Blue".

But believe it or not, and you don't even have to like it, you are judged by your body appearance, what you wear and what you drive. It is all a statement about whether you're working hard, or are already successful, or like to have fun, ...

"Live everyday like its your last, because someday you'll be right." - Benny Hill; "In heaven there is no beer, so that's why we drink it here" - Beer Barrel Polka lyrics

I'll tell you what's wrong with these subcompacts. Unless you get the base equipped vehicle, these subcompacts are too close in price to the vehicles immediately above them. If you put a few options on these subcompacts you might as well be buying a Scion Tc which this year can be had for $15K, or a base Camry or Accord, or a number of other cars. I saw an auto. Ford Focus with power options on sale for under $11K the other day ($3,000 rebate). I really think these subcompacts need to sticker under $10K base and max out around $14K.

It'll only be a few years before some of these high-cost auto-manufacturers meet the Chinese. Anyone for a Chery?

logic1

What they should do is bring the REAL Swift to the States, where it would kick butt in the emerging super segment of subcompacts!

Well, maybe Suzuki is having more trouble figuring out the steering wheel placement issue than any of us know

Seriously, the only thing I can figure is that Suzuki just did not plan the US safety requirements into the design.

I was pretty surprised to read where Lutz said the new Corsa, which meets EU standards, would be cost prohibitive to make US compliant. That leaves Saturn with the Astra but no cool subcompac at a time when the market is growing. Indeed, I think a Corsa and Astra at Saturn would be a great way to start reclaiming California.

Apparently the US standards are more unique than I thought.

explorerx4

kernick, compact cars can be had pretty cheap. i have a focus, which i really enjoy. funny thing is, it's so much more efficient than our other 2 regular drivers that i want to get the next size up. it's too small for 4 of us. i'm willing to pay some gas mileage penalty for that.
i bought the focus as a commuter, but with gas prices as they are, it makes sense to use it as family transportation.

nippononly

"If you put a few options on these subcompacts you might as well be buying a Scion Tc which this year can be had for $15K, or a base Camry or Accord, or a number of other cars"

Yeah, but all those cars except tC are big and flabby with the handling to match, contain space I will never need, and are hard to park downtown. Not to mention, they all get worse gas mileage than the subs (as a group).

And BTW, have you SEEN the $15K "tC spec"? The roof doesn't open, it has no cruise control and four or five other things that escape me right now, and instead of the rather nice alloys the regular model has it has the STUPIDEST-looking steel rims with black-painted plastic covers that (I am pretty sure) came straight off the last-gen Camry LE. They must have had a few left over, and said to themselves "hey, I KNOW what we can do with these........."

Mr_Shiftright

If a MINI can sell upwards of $24,000, I don't see why other well-equipped, well-designed, high quality subcompacts couldn't do the same--at least in theory. Of course, the quality and features have to be there.

But if you're talking about a HUGE sucompact market, I think the price limitation is about $18,000---at that point you start running into very nicely equipped larger, faster cars.

bumpy

That seems about right. Accounting for inflation, my SE-R would be around $17,500 today, and a sunroof would put you up at $18k.

pirate8

the suzuki swift is actually the maruti suzuki swift. made in india and its sold in britain, japan, middleast and other european countries. its won 30 car of the year awards overall in the world. it also has really good fuel economy.

reddroverr

Mr Shiftright:

a) economic incentive: Okay, I spend $1,200 a year less on gas compared to my old car, which is about 40% of my car payment. In addition, I don't have to repair my new car, worth another $80 a month or so, so we've acheived about 75% of my car payment

Can't argue too much. Initial price seems to be the biggest incentive for these over the next class up, since the fuel economy is pretty close to a civic and corolla. If I am going very small as in xa-fit-yaris et al, I am tempted to go with what some might call a spartan car...that is AC, Cruise, and a decent stereo. I was at first kind of dissapointed that these models were either not offered or in verty short supply. I don't have kids so I don't worry about them unlocking their doors and I can easilly reach over to unlock the passenger side in this small of a car.



b) social: Given the high cost of gas, I am now viewed as somewhat clever for having purchased a thrifty car, and yet I am not penalized for being too spartan or poor because my car offers passengers the same basic amenities they are used to in their own higher priced cars---like AC, comfy seats, good stereo and enough room to feel like they are in a reasonably spacious environment. So I don't suffer a "social penalty"

I guess to each his own. I really don't care too much for people who would judge or like my for a car. I am thinking that some women might like a bigger car.

c) moral: This is very arguable, but I could if I wished take the "moral" position that I'm burning 350 fewer gallons of fuel a year and well if everybody did the same, blah, blah, blah.

I think that is fine. I wish these little guys got better mileage and were a tad more suited for freeway cruising. I think some better options are right around the corner as far as mileage/eco cars are concerned. Indeed since 1/3 of our trade deficit is oil related, I think useing less is good for america. All in all, if given the choice of loading up one of these yaris type cars with options or something like this civic hatch - which we don't get -...

http://www.honda.co.uk/civic/

I would probably opt to pay up. Now, if I could actually get a yaris hatch at 10,900 I might do that. For now I will wait til the hubbub dies down and maybe some even better options come online.

post script:
*Tiny car should get 45 or more mpg hgwy and close to 40 city
*should be geared to cruise the highway.
*have cruise control available
*probably be clean diesel powered

logic1

Bravo!

It is good to hear about an Indian Japanese partnership making a good product and doing well.

pirate8

i just made a conversion from the indian rupee price of the swift into US dollars. and it sells for a little less than 11k. very attractive for a car that has won 30 awards worldwide. and i bet it got another 30 in India itself.
thanks, pirate8.

andre1969

Gee those cars look incredibly bland to me.

I don't think those little Suzuki-badged Daewoos look too bad. Certainly no worse than anything else out there. I know it's a midsize and really not germane to this topic (what do the goddang Germans got to dowit'it anyway? :P ) but I think the Verona's actually kinda attractive.

I saw a Fit on Friday nite. Sorry, I don't care what anybody says, that thing doesn't classify as a car. It's really a minivan scaled down for Lionel train layouts! Seriously, that thing has minivan proportions. If you blew it up to about 190-200" long and kept the proportioning, you'd have a minivan!

rockylee

I have your answer. Most of em' are very ugly.

If I want a car that gets good MPG, there are plenty of bigger vehicles that do about as well and are much safer to drive IMHO.

Rocky

snakeweasel

Name some.

rockylee

Camry Hybrid, Civic Hybrid, Accord Hybrid, Jetta diesel, VW Beetle Diesel, Jetta diesel, Ford Escape hybrid, Saturn Greenline hybrid, GM GMT-900 Trucks/SUV hybrids, Saturn Aura Hybrid, 3.2 V-6 6-speed Acura TL, Toyota Carolla, etc etc etc :P

Rocky

qbrozen

wow! your "about as well" in terms of mileage is incredibly ... ummm... well ... skewed. Kinda like how a Fit performs "about as well" as an S2K.

rockylee

Okay, okay, sorry....okay outside of the prius and echo. :P

Rocky

qbrozen

Don't get me wrong, though. I'm with you in terms of NOT buying one of these solely to save on gas. I think that was covered here before, though. Anyway, the appeal here, I believe, is that they are cheap to purchase to begin with AND do well on gas.

rockylee

Okay, fair enough. I also however think they are ugly and most are very unsafe.

Rocky

british_rover

Any specific reason why they are unsafe besides your opinion? They are all unibody cars that are built strongly. They all have tons of airbags. I think most have traction control and stablity control at least optional. I stand by what I said when people asked about the safety of my MINI, "I actually pay attention to what is going on around me and with the handly ablities of my MINI I am going to be able to avoid more accidents."

rockylee

Airbags aren't going to help you when a a H2 runs over a subcompact like a bug. Yes they have a few handling advantages, but also more disadvantages based on accident scenes I've witnessed first hand.

Rocky

snakeweasel

I will agree with qbrozen that your terminology is skewed.

I used the Fit as a basis for fuel economy at 33 city and 38 Highway.

Camry Hybrid, - It barely gets better EPA mileage (and we all know that EPA estiments for hybrids are extreamely exaggerated) at a cost of over 85% more.

Civic Hybrid, Accord Hybrid, - Again we have the issue with EPA estiments of hybrids. But I would consider them also small cars.

Jetta diesel and VW Beetle Diesel. Lets compare apples to apples shall we? The gas versions of these are Low 30's highway and mid 20's city. Nowhere near the mileage of the Fit. Plus they are small cars.

Ford Escape hybrid, - Abysmal gas mileage for a hybrid.

Saturn Greenline hybrid, GM GMT-900 Trucks/SUV hybrids, Saturn Aura Hybrid - Not sure what to say about these but again issues with EPA estiments would make me say that you most likely will get better gas mileage with the Fit.

3.2 V-6 6-speed Acura TL, - your joking right?

Again our not going to get the mileage in a larger vehicle.

snakeweasel

Okay, fair enough. I also however think they are ugly and most are very unsafe.

First off ugly is in the eye of the beholder, many of the alternatives you mentioned many would consider ugly. Also do equate size with safety, size does not always mean safer.

british_rover

If you get hit at speed by any large SUV it does not matter what vehicle you are in you are going to be in trouble. Even if you are in another large SUV if it is body on frame based like most large SUVs are, just for your edfication Range Rovers are actually built out of a unibody and are threfore safer then any other large SUV, then you are also going to be in trouble as the body on frame design does a poor job of absorbing and directing force around the safety cage.

Just in case you don't belive me...

The Espace has a curb weight nearly 1000 lbs less then the Disco as well.

rockylee

Y'alls logic and "facts" are skewed. I do read what the testers and real world people (co-workers) that own these cars get for mpg. :confuse:

Rocky

snakeweasel

I always think its funny when someone says something like "I wouldn't want to get hit by a truck going 50 MPH in that thing." Its like what outside a tank would you want to be in when you get hit by that truck doing 50 MPH?

Most small cars are as safe as their larger counterparts.

rockylee

Most small cars are as safe as their larger counterparts.

Y'all are killing me with this hawg wash.

I'll leave y'all in your dream worlds.

Rocky

snakeweasel

Y'alls logic and "facts" are skewed. I do read what the testers and real world people (co-workers) that own these cars get for mpg

So do I, I compared the Fit, Scion Xa and the Accent in EPA estiments against the cars you mentioned. Outside the Hybrids all the ones you mentioned don't come close in EPA figures for their gas models as the three I picked. And some of the Hybrids (you know the trucks you mentioned) don't even come close.

Not only that but some of those you mentioned are ugly and cost far more than most subcompacts. Not to mention that a few are of the same size.

snakeweasel

Then prove me wrong.

andre1969

that instead of putting up with something like a Civic (30/40) or Corolla (30/38), I'd get something that's more comfy for me like an Accord (24/34) or Camry (24/34, unless it changed for '07), or maybe a used Malibu V-6 (22/32 IIRC). And none of them are economical enough to make me consider dumping a perfectly running, paid-off car just for the sake of fuel economy.

Now when the time comes to buy a new(er) car, fuel economy will be a concern. It won't be the ONLY concern, but it will be taken into consideration.

british_rover

Did you actually watch the video? First off that is a Discovery not a Range Rover HUGE differance. Old style body on frame design versus modern unibody design.

Now the only problem with the test is that the airbags on the Disco failed to deploy for some reason. Because of that you can't count any of the data from the dummbies in the disco which is unfortunate. Even without the data you can look at the safety cage of each vehicle and see the differance.

dc_driver

I am sure everyone has heard that BP has to shutdown production of oil in Alaska that will affect 8% of the oil produced by the US.. I have been saying that gas prices will get very close to $4 a gallon here in the US based on the war in the middle east and the fact that the demand for gas has risen even amid rising gas prices...

Economics 101. It is supply and demand.. I for one am very glad I traded in my SUV (averaged 15-17mpg in mixed driving)for a Mazda 3i Touring that gets close to 30mpg in mixed driving...

Looks like these subcompacts will make even more sense...

w9cw

The days of the large car and SUV are nearing their end here in the USA. GM and Ford, and DCX, need to shift gears quickly, or they are going to have tons of inventory left on their dealer's lots. High(er) gas prices are here to stay. G.W. will see to that, after all that's the family's primary business.

Mr_Shiftright

Well if gas goes up to $4 a gallon for regular and $4.25 for high test, the difference between my old car getting 17 mpg on high test, and my subcompact getting 35 mpg on regular, over the course of one year or 15,000 will be----KA-CHING! ------$2,052 dollars per year savings in fuel.

That's getting substantial, don't you think?

boaz47

Don't know how that will effect us. I was in London in June and they pay close to 8 bucks a gallon and still manage to get by. The cars were far more diverse than we have and I didn't see many pickups,read any, but I saw quite a few BMW and MB SUVs. Smaller I agree but there none the less.

I don't know if I believe the end is here for the SUV either. I have been reading of their demise for as long as I have been reading the Car mags. I heard they were dead in 96 and again in 2000. I have read they were about to drop when they had 25 percent of the market along with light trucks and when they reached 40 percent people were sure we had seen the last of them. They managed to pull off 50 percent of the market and now are falling off a bit but I don't think we will see sub compacts replacing them as the market leader any time soon. I doubt if the sub compact will ever see the kind of popularity SUVs once held in our society.

iluvmysephia1

women driving those 'uge SUV's keep both hands on the wheel when they drive? I mean, ya look over, and up to the 'uge tank driving alongside you and, lo and behold there's a 110 lb. woman driving the tank. But, instead of one hand on the wheel she's gripping that wheel hard with both hands, concentrating hard on the road ahead.

I think women feel more "safe" in them. They are large and gas-guzzlers and just plain sorry sights on the road IMHO.

However, they do carry a lot of young soccer players and yes, they do consume a lot of ghastly, my car-loving friends.

The subcompacts are only going to grow as an automobile subset as ghastly reaches up towards $4.00/gal for 87 no-lead.

rockylee

iluv,

hows it going ?

Neways your wrong on all above IMHO. SUV's are getting over 30 mpg HWY and mid 20's city. How ? A little trick called a 2-stage hybrid power pack, which will make those subcompact Kia's disappear. :P

Rocky

snakeweasel

I have heard the swan song for SUV's for a long time, it has yet to pass from the roads. I am sure that less will be on the roads but I don't think that they will completely die out.

Secondly I don't think G.W. has much say on the price of gas.

snakeweasel

I think your figures are just a tiny bit off, but either was the gas savings would pay a good chunk of the new car payment. As gas goes higher sub-compacts (and micro cars) look better each and every day.

dc_driver

boaz47,

There are several reasons why you see some of the smaller SUVs in Europe. Diesel engines and smaller displacement. Europeans do pay $8 a gallon in most places and they also drive vehicles that get 30-50mpg..

The simple truth is that during the last oil crises (70's) the Europeans decided to tax gasoline so high that it would force consumers and car manufacturers to develop more fuel efficient engines. That is why there are many more subcompacts in Europe (they love hatchbacks there), and diesel engines.

The US has taken another route (CAFE is a joke). The bottomline is that Americans consumed more fuel last year than this year even with higher gas prices. So, demand is up and supply is down. The only place for gas prices to go, is well, up.. The days of $2 or below gas are behind us. I'll bet in a few years we will look back and think how cheap $3 gas was

I say bring on clean burning diesel engines here in the US. That way we can have our SUV's and good gas mileage too ...

snakeweasel

SUV's are getting over 30 mpg HWY and mid 20's city.

According to the EPA only one, yes one, gets over 30 MPG city and thats the Escape hybrid. And since we all know how hybrid owners don't come close to EPA estiments Escape owners are not getting the 31 MPG that the EPA estimates. The EPA gives 30 MPG to only two SUVs (one I don't even consider an SUV), everything else gets under 30 MPG highway.

A little trick called a 2-stage hybrid power pack, which will make those subcompact Kia's disappear

Put that hybrid power pack in a subcompact and watch it blow away a hybrid SUV in gas mileage.

andre1969

what SUVs are EPA-rated at 30 mpg or better on the highway? I see the Toyota Rav-4 gets 30. IF you get the 4-cyl and IF you get 2wd. The Chevy HHR also gets 30 on the highway cycle. Am I missing something or is that it?

Most of the more car-like crossovers, like the Tribeca, Equinox, Pilot, Highlander and Murano get about the same EPA highway mileage as your typical mid-80's, V-8, RWD full-sized car...24-25.

snakeweasel

what SUVs are EPA-rated at 30 mpg or better on the highway?

Well you did mention the Rav4 and the HHR (although I do not consider a HHR a SUV) but the Ford Escape Hybrid gets 31 MPG highway. The question is will you get 31 MPG highway in an Escape Hybrid?

qbrozen

the Vue hybrid = 32 mpg

dc_driver

Yes, and what is the cost of those hybrid SUVs? I am not sold on Hybrid technology yet. Last I read, hybrid sales (except maybe the Prius) are lackluster right now. Why

I would much rather see the US adopt clean burning diesel engines (I belive Honda plans on brining this engine to the US in the Odyssey in 07/08).

qbrozen

Vue = $22k and change.

I'd much rather see a clean burning diesel hybrid, personally.

BUT, in terms of this topic, to keep prices reasonable, I'm with you on just using a small diesel in a subcompact.

The diesel hybrid I dream of would be for a much more substantial vehicle.

logic1

Adding to what Gbrozen says, the Hybrid Vue has a reasonable MSRP and will be available for tax credit.

That said, I am not convinced hybrids get as good gas mileage as claimed.

My zip car service features an '06 Civic Hybrid. I've not been able to get better than 27 mpgs driving mainly in Brooklyn, despite an EPA city rating of 49 mpgs. I've not been stomping on it (indeed, the friendly NYC drivers have freely expressed their appreciation for my hybrid driving on multiple occasions). I have been using the AirCon. This summer has been hot and humid.

A torquey GM Europe diesel in the replacement VUE (which will be smaller and presumably lighter than the current Vue Hybrid) should get better mileage than the VUE hybrid. And GM will have room for a spare without the battery pack.

rockylee

Put that hybrid power pack in a subcompact and watch it blow away a hybrid SUV in gas mileage.

I agree, however a SUV can carry 8 and all the gear, something a "subsardine can" can't do. :P

Rocky