What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

boaz47

most of us in these forums can drive about any kind or size of vehicle for as far as we want. I have driven both small cars and large cars and even trucks from the LA area to Seattle. A Carman Ghia was the smallest because I was always afraid to take the Sprite over 100 miles from home. But compared to the Ghia a Olds, Buick, or Even a SUV is much preferred for long trips. Even my old Ram Charger was easy on a very long drive. I almost felt that once you pointed it down the road out on 5 you could hit cruise control and walk back to the back seat and reach for something out of the cooler and get back to the drivers wheel before it would drift out of your lane. Yes, I know I couldn't but it sure felt like it. Take your hands off of a sub Compact for an instant and a bird flying by will cause them to skip into the next lane. Well maybe not a bird but we all know the feeling.

snakeweasel

Especially when the first three hours of nearly any trip that I takes involves driving through Chicagoland into Indiana.

Driving around Chicagoland into the shooting gallery (oops I mean Indiana) can take three hours at times.

bumpy

Bah, that's just the languid ratio in the steering box. Those old tanks had such low ratios you had to spin the wheel half a dozen times before it would turn noticeably. That's also why they needed such overblown power steering.

boaz47

That could be true. Maybe it is why you can get away with putting a Lift and 35s on without changing the steering box. But you did have to add dampers. Still they were like small motor homes on a trip. And many times my wife did walk to the back seat to take a nap.

nippononly

"I almost felt that once you pointed it down the road out on 5 you could hit cruise control and walk back to the back seat and reach for something out of the cooler and get back to the drivers wheel before it would drift out of your lane."

Good God man! And that's a GOOD thing? Whatever happened to an appreciation of quick precise steering?

Actually you remind me of something I wanted to add to the discussion: most of the focus has been on ways in which subs do not measure up for many people, but how about the ways in which large cars and trucks do not measure up? Languid or numb (or both) steering like you mention, little or no road feel, ponderous responses to the wheel when you do attempt to steer through the curves, and low round-town gas mileage. It almost seems like Americans are so in love with XXL that they have willingly given up those attributes in their vehicles. I expect that from the "point A to point B people", but what about the enthusiasts here?

Also, I go to Seattle semi-regularly from the Bay Area, and L.A. regularly (870 and 380 miles one-way, respectively). I do the whole L.A. stint in one go, yes even in the Echo (*gasp*), and do the Seattle trips in 450-mile stints. Did San Diego one time earlier this year, almost did the whole 600 miles or so before I finally had to stop for gas around the 500-mile mark (the Echo only has a 12.4-gallon tank). I have no problem doing it in long stretches, and it saves a whole lot more time than the folks who try to go 90 mph, are frustrated all the time by the high traffic volumes on I-5, and stop every 100 miles for shopping, gas, food, or you-know-what.

w9cw

I remember my first non-stop (except for absolute minimum rest stops and fuel stops of course) trip was with my "then new" 1968 Triumph GT6. At only 43 inches high at the roof and an 83 inch wheelbase, a small sports car is the operative word. Drove it from western Indiana to Bethlehem, Pennsylvania straight-through. Ah, I was young, and enjoyed the experience. OTOH, I just finished an experience with a 2007 Camry SE on a 1,500 mile rental. Drove 565 miles straight through from central Illinois to western New York, and again, enjoyed it immensely. Cruising range on the Camry was around 540 miles between fill ups.

I think you either enjoy driving long distances or not, whether it be in a large land barge or a small two seater.

logic1

I do the whole L.A. stint in one go, yes even in the Echo (*gasp*), and do the Seattle trips in 450-mile stints. Did San Diego one time earlier this year, almost did the whole 600 miles or so before I finally had to stop for gas around the 500-mile mark (the Echo only has a 12.4-gallon tank).

Recommend you take the Surfliner and rent something you would not normally drive once you reach San Diego.

andre1969

I know I start getting irritated with my uncle's '03 Corolla the moment I sit behind the wheel. So calling it a "ten minute car" might be a bit generous. Still, I can get out on the tractor and cut the grass for 2-3 hours straight, so I guess I could put up with his Corolla for a longer stint if I *had* to.

Now I *could* go 150-200 miles without stopping. Doesn't mean I'd like it. And it certainly wouldn't be in comfort. A few years back I drove from here (DC area) to Houston in a day. Well, okay, a 22 hour day. My Intrepid has about a "45 minute" seat. That is, I start aching after about that time. Doesn't mean I stop the car and get out of it at that time, but that's about the time period where I'm not comfortable anymore.

Interestingly, my '79 NYer's seat is usually good for at least an hour before I start aching, and I haven't yet driven the LeMans far enough to find out what my breaking point is in that car.

I find that with me, the key to comfort is two-fold. Thigh support and lower back support. Most modern cars tend to put me into a slouching position...they're supporting up around the shoulder area, but sorely lacking in lower back.

And anything where I sit so that my thighs are hanging loose, instead of supported by the seat, gets tiring after awhile.

My pickup truck really doesn't have much legroom. However, the seat is high enough off the ground that it supports my thighs. And the seatback, while flat and not all that thick, at least hits my lower back in just the right spot.

In something like my '57 DeSoto, I'm really not that comfortable on long trips because, while I can stretch my left leg out and barely touch the firewall, the pedals are kinda close. And the seat is low, so it leaves my right thigh unsupported. It does hit my back in just the right spot, though.

Cars with contouring and side bolstering do nothing to help me. The side bolstering keeps you in place in aggressive driving, but it still does nothing for the areas where I need it...thigh and lower back support.

Believe it or not, one of the most comfortable long-distance trips I took was in my '68 Dart. Plenty of legroom, thigh support, lower back support. And more headroom than my '76 LeMans. And the seat seemed a bit higher than in my '79 New Yorker. That car was even comfortable to sleep in! I dunno how exactly, but I could sleep just fine in the back seat of that Dart. Tried it in the Intrepid once, and it just wasn't comfy.

iluvmysephia1

does your '68 Dart have that racing stripe on the back that runs, how does it run, up the side and across the trunk area and down the other side? Know what I mean? Or is that only painted onto the Dart SS Super Sports? Really a pretty sharp looking compact, the '68 Dodge Dart. Oh, those were the days. Actually, that Mary McGregor tune 'Those Were the Days' was published right about when your '68 Dodge Dart was shooting down the assembly line, andre!

Isn't this fun, just slipstreaming from one car thought to another, occasionally throwing in vague references to old pop songs in to keep y'all honest! Yahooweee!

nippononly

But I hear the Surfliner is chronically late - in fact there was an article in the paper just this week, or was it last week?

But I have done the fly-and-rent thing - got a
Mustang convertible once that was totally NOT me, once paid extra for a Saab 9-3, which I liked generally speaking, but wouldn't buy at the price they ask for it.

Besides, the Echo gets close to 50 mpg on those long highway stints. It is my personal challenge to myself to get it over the 50 threshold! :-)

beer4704

The singer was Mary Hopkin........Not MacGregor, laddie!

snakeweasel

My first non-stop (except for absolute minimum rest stops and fuel stops of course) trip was with in a 1981 Mustang When I went from Pullman Washington (eastern end of the state) to Firestone Colorado (just north of Denver) which if I remember correctly was about 1,000 to 1,100 miles. I enjoyed that ride.

A few years ago me and the wife did Chicago to Orlando and the return trip a week later straight through in the Elantra. That was about 1300 miles and we were comfortable.

boaz47

if our expectations for these small cars aren't a bit unrealistic? After all they are designed to meet a specific need. Commuting and city driving. They won't fill the need of a Soccer Mom, boat owner, weekend hunter, motorcycle or Quad pulling sport person. Or even the person that does long distance driving on any kind of regular basis. But they do meet the needs of city drivers pretty well. They are point a to point be vehicles and maybe we should admire them for that? My only complaint is that with few exceptions they are too expensive for what you get and for a few bucks more you can get more. I have been interested in these small cars, smaller than a traditional compact, in the past, but only as a commuter and only as a used car. The second reason has been they were traditionally pretty inexpensive to pick up used. I just think it will be a hard sell if the size and expense is too close to a Compact that can be used for the same driving experience.

iluvmysephia1

Or Mary Poppins? I think you're corn-fused, Mister!
Mary Hopkin? Or Mary Hopkins? Come on fellow car freaks, give us more information on that 1968 tune "'Those Were the Days' my friend, we thought they'd never end, we'd sing and dance, forever and a day. We'd live the life we'd choose, we'd fight and never lose, those were the days, oh yes those were the days!"

Altogether...Di-di-nee-di-dee-dee-da-daa-dee-daie-dee-dee-da-da-de-da-dee-daie-d- - - ee-daie-dee-daie, humm-humm-hum-hu-he-hu-dee-daie-dee-daie-dee-dee..dee-daie-dii-dee-diie-dee-di-d- - - i-die-dee-dee. Humm-hum...

Really a pretty good tune my car-looney friends.

Oh, as far as subcompacts go I'm currently researching the 2006 Scion xA. I want Polar White or Classic Metalllc Silver. I want 5-speeds for the tranny, anything else is an obvious abomination and a foolhardy joke.

Fools Hall of Fame. Anybody have any idea why Foghat is not in the Rock and Roll Hall of Shame in Cleveland? They put dumb American bands like The Turtles in there but shun the best rock band in the history of recorded instruments, Foghat. What a bunch of bonafide dorks. :surprise:

snakeweasel

They put dumb American bands like The Turtles in there but shun the best rock band in the history of recorded instruments, Foghat.

I know this is off topic but I have to ask ARE YOU NUTS?????. I can think of plenty of bands better than Foghat.

Mr_Shiftright

Let's see....Foghat vs. subcompacts....yeah, I'd say we're off topic! :P

Well now EVERY car, EVERY car in the world is a "compromise" about something. Some are intentional and very narrowly defined, like a Ferrari--others are broader, and some try (unsuccessfully) to do everything---and end up excelling at nothing (which is okay, plenty of cars excel at nothing).

I'd venture that your typical 2006 subcompact is a compromise toward economy, which they do very very well (cost to own overall I mean), toward size--which some find too limiting, toward MSRP--which most seem to find a bargain at the price--

so overall, I'd say the compromises made by most of the subcompacts achieve their goals, and none of the compromises alienate vast swaths of buyers. In short, the subcompacts COULD satisfy the needs of a whopping proportion of drivers, if you eliminated personal preferences which have nothing to do with function.

kyfdx

It was Mary Hopkins..

And, if you thought that Foghat was the greatest band of all time, then you are probably between 44-47 yrs. old..

My friend had a '74 Ford Elite with big amps and 9X12s in the rear deck, and used to blast Foghat.. (you know, to stay on topic)..

w9cw

I'm sorry kyfdx, it was singular "Mary Hopkin." Are we off topic or what???

I'm sitting here looking at the 45RPM record of her song, and it is indeed Mary Hopkin who sang "Those Were The Days" in late summer of 1968.

Here's a link for confirmation:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/music/sites/maryhopkin/pages/biography.shtml

andre1969

Jean Stapleton and Carroll O'Connor did a really cool cover of that song in 1971 :shades:

That Mary Hopkin chick makes me think of the one that sang that song about hating your neighbor, cheating your friends, doing it in the name of heaven, and then one tin soldier riding away on the bloody morning after. Same chick?

w9cw

"One Tin Soldier (Legend of Billy Jack)" was sung by the band Coven in 1971, and is considered an Anti-War Song, as are a number of others (see below). The female lead singer's name was Jinx Dawson.

http://www.zmag.org/Songs/songarchive.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coven_(band)

Maybe we need to move this thread back to the Fit, Versa, Yaris, etc., but for a 59 year old who experienced this era, it's been fun.

iluvmysephia1

We really are a bunch of dopes in this nation if we'll, out of American pride, put a band like the Turtles in the Rock and Roll Hall of Shame in Cleveland, Ohio, and not put the best band of all-time, Foghat, in there.

Ci?

Mr_Shiftright

STOOOPPPPPP PLEASSSSSEEEEEE....

let's get back on topic!

snakeweasel

If I started something on the song "Little Deuce Coupe" would that be on topic?

iluvmysephia1

I now want to get back on topic because I am considering a 2006 Scion xA in 5-speed form, either Polar White or Classic Silver in color.

Let me ask you, did you order yours with the EP-10 wheels from Scion? Or do you have the stock wheel covers on? Are they the slotted disk kind, standard fare looking? I really love the look of the new world order redesigned 2006 Scion xA with nice wheels shod on.

I would probably head into Sierra Vista or Tucson and go to Discount Tire or Tire Rack and get fresh new wheels right away. There's two Scion dealers in Tucson, AZ, which is now about 75 miles from home. I'm now living in the land of the blazing sun, Arizona.

It's unique to me to have a skill(Allied Health-Respiratory Therapy)where I can go to where the job is as opposed to heading to the job, like The Boeing Company in Everett, WA. Traveling plays a decent and sometimes required part in medical care, as we are needed big-time and not enough of us are being trained to care for all of the aging baby boomers. Anyhow, I'm now very close to the US-Mexico border! :P

Tucson has two Scion dealers and I've shot an e-mail off to one of them this morning to start asking personal questions. Stay tuned.

andre1969

and measured the interior volume of cars back in the day, I'm sure the Little Deuce Coupe would be a subcompact, so perhaps it's aproppo? :P

poohbear1

I was just wondering if anyone has any predictions about how the Yaris will be on snowy/icy roads. I've heard that the Echo wasn't that good... (but I guess we won't really know the answer til the first snowfall!)

andre1969

that being lightweight and FWD, the Yaris should be okay in the snow. At least, if its tires aren't over-sized. Now once the snow gets up to the point that the car "snowbanks" itself, a Yaris won't have the weight to bully its way through the snow like my old Gran Fury did, but at that point you need to keep yo' butt at home!

Besides, even if the thing does get stuck, it should be light enough to get UN-stuck. A buddy of mine had a '98 Tracker convertible, just RWD, and it got stuck in the snow all the time. However, it was so light that it was easy to push.

nippononly

are you going to pull the trigger this time? Inquiring minds want to know! Or are you still just window shopping, knowing that your "better half" will not allow a purchase right now?

If you do go with one of the little Scions (or the Rio5), you will be saving a lot of gas vs the Sportage you have now, that's for sure.

gogogodzilla

Only someone with no appreciation of beauty would find the Honda Element to be ugly...

:P

snakeweasel

If you put the word "not" after the word "Element" I think most people would agree with you.

iluvmysephia1

I am serious but there's always the "better half" side of the equation. I am ready to buy, I was thinking that there might be a sale of some kind at the end of the car sales year, September. I'll find out, the Tucson Scion dealer websites don't indicate any sales or year-end discounts but I would need to talk to somebody about it.

I would like to trade-in the Sportage because I want to travel on my time off and see this state in it's entirety, and the '01 Sportage is running well, everything is in good working order and it would make a good trade-in. The 2006 Scion xA would get awesome ghastly mileage and I would feel better about how much fuel I was consuming on long trips(or even short town errand hops).

If I do anything at all it will be in another month or so. Yeah, I'm closer than ever before on pulling the trigger right now. The competing car would be the 2006 Kia Rio LX sedan or the 2006 Kia Rio5. Any of those three would suit me fine. I'm leaning towards a silver xA because I saw one pull into a local hotel and it looked great. I was wondering what a silver one looked like and the next day one came to town to let its owner rest while traveling I-10 through southern Arizona.

BTW-I didn't know that Arizona had this "monsoon" season that covers July and August and a titch of September. When most areas are having their most beautiful weather Arizona is having this parade of booming lightning and thunder storms and Willcox will get these huge puddles of rainwater that the city just lets sit until it evaporates.

Hence, we have mosquitos galore and rigs splashing through puddles(huge puddles)all the time.

A final thought to share: Arizona is the first state I've lived in where I've seen a bobcat. My wife and son spotted it sitting under a tree to escape the heat at the Chiricahua National Monument. The Chiricahua National Monument is a National Park where millions of years ago these intriguing rock spires and odd formations were formed after a volcanic eruption. The resulting rocks left behind are colored a reddish-brown and look awesome.

I stopped the Sportage to gawk at the small wild cat and said "Hi, baby." The bobcat looked at me for a few seconds, got up and started walking away real slowly into a clearing. BTW-we took our two Pomeranians to the park but they are not allowed in the park at all. They become prey for the bobcats, cougars and bear(plus there's probably a large species of bird or two at that park). I am still tickled pink over being able to see my first untamed cat species out in the wild before. Whoo-hoo!

I'm looking for further incentives to pull the trigger on the Rio or xA. Something to push me towards Tucson or Sierra Vista and do it. I'm close, gentlemen. Just a Hasselback completion or two or a Shaun Alexander TD run away to doing it. Go Seahawks!

Mr_Shiftright

I'm still shopping for wheels. I like a multi-spoke jet black with maybe some chrome nuts, that's it. I hate the "crab claw" look myself.

One thing you have to remember is that the xA has DRUM rear brakes so you want a wheel that is not too open, or the rear wheels will look dorky with that drum behind in plain view.

Also don't put too large a wheel on. I think 17" is more than enough. With 18" you'll ride harsh and lose power (weight and rolling resistance).

SNOW: My only complaint about FWD in snow is if you have to make a sharp right or left turn up a steep hill...that gets dicey. You'll need to modulate the clutch in snow when starting out in first gear, as 1st is a digger gear on the xA. Maybe start in 2nd, there's enough torque to do that.

For subcompacts, Scion has a great aftermarket in place.

iluvmysephia1

now that I'm living so close to the US-Mexico border I don't think I'll have snow as part of my driving equation much here in SE Arizona. If we head up to Flagstaff or Sedona or even Snowflake to look for the exact spot that that dude in 'Fire in the Sky'(Travis Walton)was purportedly abducted we will definitely encounter snow. Good point about clutch action at start-up time in the snow, I'll keep it in mind. As I recall during my test drive the xA's shifter is very easy to use and the car's clutch action is really smooth. I loved it and it really is pushing me towards an xA over the Rio5. I haven't test drove the new Rio's yet but know that on my Sportage 4x4 shifting is more truck-like. I'll bet it's smoother on the '06 Rio shifting.

Yeah, you bring up a good point about rear drum brakes and the resulting gaps showing if you get the "crableg" spoke wheels like on the EP-10's. Thing is, that's the kind of wheels I like. If I pull the trigger on the Scion xA I will no doubt wait and shop extensively for just the wheel I want and not make any impulse buys on shiny wheels. I will get them though, because they make the look of the xA that I love so much. They complete the car...with those factory wheel covers the car just doesn't look the same. Nice but not the same.

growwise

More subcompacts for the masses!

andre1969

wheel designs that were to open regardless of whether the car has drum or disc brakes. If you see too much of the hardware up in there, it just gives the car an unfinished look, IMO. I don't mind the look of drum brakes so much, in and of themselves, but TINY drum brakes look bad. If something like a Taurus only has 8.9" drums in back, I'd imagine an xA has like 3 or 4" drums! :P Those would look REALLY dorky with a big rim that exposes the innards. Now if you're showing off a 12" '57 DeSoto drum or a 13" Ram drum, that might not look quite so bad.

Mr_Shiftright

I drove this cargo down to my office today, and I still had a little room. For a subcompact, this is pretty good carrying capacity, I thought:

Stuffing an xA

dc_driver

growwise,

What is that Silver car at the bottom of the picture (make, model, is it available in NA?) It looks like the front badge says Kia??

I really like th look of that car..

dc_driver

iluv,

I think a Scion xA with the iPod adapter, some hot wheels, is a great little car. I would probably take it over the Rio5.. I like the look of the Rio5 except for all the black body cladding on the outside..

Good luck on your purchase, I think both cars are wise investments with the current gas prices..

Mr_Shiftright

I like the auxiliary plug in behind the shifter---I can plug in an old cassette Walkman and listen to my ancient "books on tape" through the regular sound system.

The new Mitsubishi Outlander (not a subcompact) will have an AC converter built right in, that's pretty cool. So now you can drive, talk on the phone and maybe drill something as well.

michaellno

The new Mitsubishi Outlander (not a subcompact) will have an AC converter built right in, that's pretty cool. So now you can drive, talk on the phone and maybe drill something as well.

Nah, use the outlet to plug in your expresso maker and skip the drive thru line at the local Starbucks.

Of course, dealing with the foam at 65MPH on I-280 might be a bit tricky, so you'll have to get the automatic to keep one of your hands available!

:P

qbrozen

dealing with the foam at 65MPH on I-280 might be a bit tricky

If you get into trouble, just plug in your fax machine and send out a message for help.

(p.s. this is a simpson's episode ... in case anyone didn't already know that.)

tsgeisel

Have you tried test-driving the xA yet?

I was unimpressed with the driver's seat on it - for me it sat up very high over the steering wheel; perhaps that could have been adjusted (perhaps the dealer with me should have pointed that out to me), but that was the first part that didn't impress me at all.

It's a nice enough looking car, but my driving experience was not an ideal one.

michaellno

If you get into trouble, just plug in your fax machine and send out a message for help.

C'mon, you need a phone line to use a fax! If we're gonna poke fun at an option, we have to be grounded in reality!



A friend of mine is thinking of getting rid of his Tacoma for a Yaris. I told him he should look at the xA, as it comes standard with many features that are optional on the Yaris.

OTOH, he also wants to get rid of his wife's '03 Santa Fe for a new '07 Santa Fe, strictly because of the way the new model looks.

qbrozen

I'll let Matt Groening know of your objection.

snakeweasel

C'mon, you need a phone line to use a fax! If we're gonna poke fun at an option, we have to be grounded in reality!

You can send a fax via wireless technology.

michaellno

Ya know, I did think of that when I wrote that last post, figuring that no-one would call me on it.

WRONG!

Oh well. Gotta liven up our Monday somehow.

nippononly

to all the folks that claim no model in America can be improved without enlarging it:

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060814/FREE/60814012/1065/T- OC01ARCHIVE

The next-gen Mini gains in fuel economy (as well as getting about a 5% power boost), while remaining exactly the same size except for 2.3 inches more in length which are attributable to the new pedestrian safety standards for European cars (longer higher hoods put more space between the engine and the head of the pedestrian that gets hit).

boaz47

But my friend any larger is larger and any power boost is a power boost. They didn't make it smaller and drop the power on it and try to sell it as the new improved Mini.

Mr_Shiftright

quibbling...obviously the effort was to keep enlargement and power increase to a bare minimum...ala Miata holding the size and power increases to very small increments spaced out over 16 years.

Admirable restraint ALWAYS makes for the best cars IMO, whether they be subcompacts or exotics.

Which Mustang is worth more, the '65 or the '73?

That's right.

boaz47

Yes, but the 298 is worth a lot more than the 200. Right back atcha. The Boss and the GT350 and GT500 are worth the most. High performance is easy to sell. The 200 cube 6 is a harder sell. The smaller v-6 Charly's angels mustang II is worth the least. The 289 Cobra was nice, the 427 was great. The 283 Vette wasn't bad the 427 was pure joy. The C-5 is a nice Vette. With close to 500 HP the Z06 is a porsche killer. Because it is easy to make a bigger more comfortable or more powerful car the new and improved whathaveyou, it is almost always a bit bigger with a little more boost than the old one. Simply because you can't reasonably charge the new and improved prices for a smaller weaker whathaveyou. It just happens.

I don't know if the same will be true if some of the new electric cars we saw on the news last night ever make it big in the inner cities. But for ICE cars? How many times have you seen less HP than the model year before? In fact how often are they shorter or lighter than the year before?