What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

cluedweasel

"Diesels still need to overcome two GIANT obstacles: a) the fuel stinks...IT STINKS...and there's no way around that (yet) and b) where I live, diesel is .40 cents to .50 cents more than regular gas (in northern California)."

The stuff I put in my Octavia when I'm in the U.K. doesn't stick any more than the ordinary petrol. I guess that U.S. diesel has some additives. Haven't ever used it over here because I can't find a diesel I'd want to drive.
I would hope that when more diesel is being produced and used that the price would go down.

midnightcowboy

Yes, high regular service costs every 5,000 miles.
Replacement of parts rather than repair.
Free loaner RXs and EXs.
Free lattes and capachinos.
Quiet isolated, disconnected luxury ride!
Outstanding quality and relability!

Owned an ES300 (5-speed manual) still own an IS300 (5-speed manual).

MidCow

snakeweasel

Outstanding quality and relability!

Wait, doesn't that contradict "high regular service costs every 5,000 miles." and "Replacement of parts rather than repair."

wale_bate1

There's only been one Lexus worth owning and I own it (midnightcowboy owns its slightly lesser sedan brother ): IS300 Sportcross. Started off as a Toyota aping a BMW and didn't do half bad.

The rest of 'em I wouldn't give dollar one for. Why pay to be bored silly when you're not in meetings? :confuse:

nippononly

Ah wale, I was WAITING for you to weigh in on that one! :-)

So when's that IS350 going to come with a manual, eh? They made the major jump forward this year - they have made VDIM fully defeatable in almost all the models.

But I digress. I AM curious about Midnight's manual shift ES. I don't think he can mean the ES300, as I don't believe it ever came with a shifter. I think he perhaps means the ultra-rare manual shift ES250 from the early days of Lexus.

And to perhaps bring this back to the topic at hand, I would say that the way you all feel about all the non-IS Lexi (which is the same way I feel about them, although they SURE are built well), is the way I feel about any car I have ever driven that was larger than a Corolla, or had an automatic. Subs rock! :-P

wale_bate1

Consistency is a trait highly prized by employers, brother Nippon (according to Robert Half).

The 350 is still a pig, manual or no, systems override or no, says I. It can be enhanced with the sport package, but it's little more than a baby GS, and therefore not fit for pseudo-enthusiast consumption. One of the most disappointing test drives of my life, other than standing on it off the line (big fat hairy deal).

What happened, you might well ask? Someone went and made it too big and too heavy and tried to fix it with a big engine, that's what.

Small cars rule. Small wagons rule better. Small RWD wagons rule supremely...

snakeweasel

Small wagons rule better.

I concur, The only problem is they don't make my small wagon anymore and I really like it.

british_rover

New MINI Traveler is going to sort of be a really small wagon.

Should have at least one perhaps two rear suicide doors.

plekto

I miss the Volvo 240 Turbo Wagon.

Stickshift, wagon, lightweight(2800lbs or so), RWD, and of course, a silly amount of power.

The IS300 Sportcross is a beautiful car, though.

cluedweasel

"New MINI Traveler is going to sort of be a really small wagon"

I bet it's not going to have cool wood like the original though!

iluvmysephia1

I can get a new 2007 Suzuki SX4, with a 5-speed manual transmission and Techno-Blue Metallic paint job(becoming my favorite more with eash passing day)for only $232.62 a month. That is figuring in a $14,999 purchase price + $595 destination, for a grand total of $15,594. My trade in (a 2001 Kia Sportage 4x4 in great condition) is worth $4,194 according to KBB.com.

Add in a $500 new college grade rebate and buy with $800 down(Sportage 4x4 owed vs. Sportage KBB.com worth, 4WD's snap up more and it's running optimally) and the new college grade rebate, for 60 months at 0% interest(yep, Suzuki's basically opening up their door and even letting Pittsburgh Steeler fans in. Not me, dummy! I'm a Seattle Seahawk fan! I'm just saying that by letting Pittsburgh Steeler fans in they're letting vitually anybody in to the Suzuki fold!) and the payment calculator in the SuzukiAuto.com website figures me up a monthly grand total payment of only $232.62. Whooo-hooo-doggies coming north to Willcox for railloading! Techno Blue Metallic is emerging as my local favorite here to cruise this sleepy, historic little town with Arizona's oldest store(circa 1880, it's a General Store that has been operating continuously for well over a hundred years, Arizona's oldest)of 3,700 people here in the hot and sunny desert of SE Arizona.

Suzuki includes a Micron Filter with the standard air conditioning. 4-wheel discs all around with Electronic Brake Foce Distribution, ABS brakes, an AM/FM/CD/MP3 Satellite-ready stereo system that's XM -ready, available i-Pod plug-in from Suzuki dealers, remote keyless entry with "panic" capability to lighten up your SX4 in parking lots(can't wait to use this one), i-AWD Lock for available 4WD, it locks axles together with the flip of a toggle switch to handle those nasty Mt.Graham ice storms, i-AWD Auto with up to 50% power to the rear wheels for more grippage in wattery/muddy snap situations, and i-FWD(2WD)for optimum gas mileage driving, 6 airbags with full protection for driver and passenger and side curtain airbags for those riding in the rear, theater-style seating(my '01 Sportage 4x4 has this and it is nice, it allows "up-high" sight coverage for rear-seat passengers), back seats that "tumble" forward and stow for more cargo-carrying capability, tilt steering wheel with rack and pinion electronically assisted/controlled steering, 34 foot turning radius, bottle holders in the traditional spots for side door "map" storage areas, no center arm rest(how would this go over-I think I could get used to it, it's something to take note of on a test drive for sure, man. There are websites for Scion armrests and I'm sure I could eventually get one and install it myself at a reasonable SE Arizona cost of around $135. Free-market opportunists, get cracking on this one. I will be one of your first customers), dash lights lighting up with red illumination and on and on we go.

Oh, I saw one in person already. It was in little Benson, Arizona, while my '01 Sportage 4x4 was getting some maintenance done a little over a week ago. It was the silver color. The car looked small. It had an automatic tranny.

"How do you like your SX4?" I blurted out to the lady around my age pumping her ghastly.

"I love it!" she exclaimed with a knowing grin and the look on her face that reminded me of how I must have looked to passers-by after the Seattle Supersonics busted up the Washington Bullets for the 1979 NBA World Championship.

Incidentally, I asked her what kind of ghastly mileage she was getting in her brand new 2007 Suzuki SX4 with an automatic transmission. Here was my chance to find out what the little new world order Pinto might give in New World Order Ghastly mileage. It was not to be!

"Oh, I...I...don't know."

"You don't know?" I asked, with a snirky, bratty inquisitive look only a future owner of this great new car would be able to give.

"I don't have it set on...ummm...". She had her purse out now and wanted to head in to the store to pay for her ghastly.

"You don't have it set on...", I was staring intently into her eyes, incredulous that she wasn't taking full advantage of this technology apparently available to her in her new silver baby.

"I..I am watching it but...I...I...don't know what my gas mileage is." OK, then. I decided she needed to move on. She scampered in to the clerk like Bambi after her mother died.

She would've caused me to fall over and hit my head on the support post if she would've said ghastly mileage instead of gas mileage. I would've known she reads Edmunds.com regularly.

Anyhow, if you're still with me you can wonder along with me if this car really has a ghastly-o-trip-a-meter factory-installed.

Sheesh, for only $232.62 a month I will have plenty of casht-ly left over to buy goodies for my baby. Like an armrest and a ghastly-a-meter. Except I may not need either. She was adamant it has a gas-o-meter. The armrest may not be needed. Have to test drive. Need the info.

"It keeps track of it for you" she said. Apparently Suzuki is now saying the Italian-bodystyled motorcar made in conjunction with Fiat will get 23 mpg in the city(Tucson) and 28 mpg on the highway(highway 10 through Arizona). Ree-hee-ha-hee-aa-reee-aaaaaaaa-llll-yyyy! Why is that even an issue with people? I mean, isn't it here on Edmunds that we discuss Americans and their newly-found admiration for ghastly fur-traders and how ghastly prices are plummetting like TO's stock with Bill Parcells? Humor me, TO and Bill. The Cowboys are doomed to fail once again. Most of us who follow football knew that months ago.

Eee-gads.

snakeweasel

New MINI Traveler is going to sort of be a really small wagon

Two problems with the mini.

1.) Costs to much for what I am getting.

2.) Cost to much for it to just sit in my driveway as I could never drive it because I can't fit into it.

snakeweasel

You haven't answered my question, how much is Suzuki paying you?

remote keyless entry with "panic" capability to lighten up your SX4 in parking lots(can't wait to use this one),

Why do you panic a lot?

iluvmysephia1

Suzuki isn't paying me but I will soon be paying them around $232.62/month for about 60 months.

As for the panic button on my remote keyless entry, well, there you have something to smack yourself upside the head with and wonder why you picked Pittsburgh last year in the Pooper Bowl that was last years shame...I...I mean Super Bowl game. What a shame Lonesome Dave Peverett sang in their 1972 song 'What A Shame.' Foghat not only was a true blues band Foghat is the blues. Plain and simple. What Muddy Waters started Foghat finished once and for all time. We will never see a blues-rock band equal them in talent and form. Truly a marvel to listen to their music at near ear-splitting volumes. But I digress.

Oh...that standard equipment panic button on my 2007 Suzuki SX4 in Techno Blue Metallic and 5-speed form. I won't panic but I will thrill to the looks of the startled people (and see a really perturbed look on my wife's face as well) the first time I hit my very own "panic" button. :P

"You and I are really not that different from each other Austin Powers," Dr.Evil matter of factly states in a pivotal moment of the movie.

rorr

Have you had your meds this morning? :P

snakeweasel

Suzuki isn't paying me .....

You wouldn't think so as you posts sounds like they came of the word processor of a two bit marketing hack writing up marketing material for Suzuki.

As for the panic button on my remote keyless entry, well, there you have something to smack yourself upside the head with and wonder why you picked Pittsburgh last year in the Pooper Bowl that was last years shame...I...I mean Super Bowl game.

First off I don't follow football and I am darn proud of that. Secondly what does that have to do with the price of rhubarb?

What Muddy Waters started

Its Muddy Water (no 's') and you are really going off the deep end.

rorr

"What Muddy Waters started Foghat finished once and for all time. We will never see a blues-rock band equal them in talent and form."

Go listen to some old SRV.

boaz47

You have to forgive iluvmysephia1. He has been defending Kia so long that a Suzuki is a giant step forward. Though I have to admit I have had four, yes four, little Suzuki Samari. One was stock and the other three were turned into rock crawlers. Not much fun on the pavement but they were a hoot in the dirt. Mostly because you could abuse them without being concerned about what the parts would cost to fix them. Darn, come to think of it they are a giant step up from a Kia. Now that was a Sub Compact SUV. and it had a whopping 60 HP.

fintail

Don't all cars with keyless entry have a panic feature?

nortsr1

You ar judging the payments on a KBB trade-in price. Did the Suzuki dealership actually off you that much for your Kia Sportage?????

snakeweasel

Just look at the numbers. He said it was $14,999 plus $595 destination. So add tax title and license you are looking at maybe $16,800 or so. Now he said he is paying $232.62 on a zero interest 60 month note that means he will pay $13,957.20 in payments leaving $2,842.80 less his $500 grad discount and his $800 downpayment leaves $1,542.80 that he got on his trade in. If the state allows for a tax credit on the trade in subtract a hundred or so off that. If his trade in was worth $4,194.00 he only got about 36% of what KBB said it was worth which is not good.

That and seeing that the Suzuki stickers at $14,999 I would say that he over paid.

boaz47

You just take the joy out of getting a new car.

british_rover

Economists/accountants have a knack at doing that.

All spreadsheets and balance books.

snakeweasel

Sorry but I am an accountant. You cant expect to give me numbers without me crunching them.

snakeweasel

Economists/accountants have a knack at doing that.

Thats me, have 10 key will travel. :shades:

british_rover

Before my boss got into the car business he was an accountant.

Its funny to watch him work a deal with someone who thinks they are going to out number him somehow.

boaz47

From that perspective what makes selling a Sub Compact to the general American consumer so hard compared to Europe or Asia? I realize space is at a premium in Asian cities and two wheels often out number four by a great margin but Europe has some things in common with us don't they? Why is the sub compact seemingly so tied to cycles? We hit a hard spot in our economy and they re-introduce the sub compact. Five or six years later the sub compact has grown and we have to wait another few years before they Re-introduce the new batch of sub compacts. This time even the sub compacts are bigger than the old sub compacts. However they are being introduced with smaller engines than average.

snakeweasel

Its funny to watch him work a deal with someone who thinks they are going to out number him somehow.

I bet, once a number cruncher always a number cruncher. I bet he runs circles around most people.

stickguy

without digging through the old posts, I think you forgot to account for the payoff on the Kia.

snakeweasel

without digging through the old posts, I think you forgot to account for the payoff on the Kia.

Its a 2001, since this is just about October of 2006 I am presuming that it is paid off.

logic1

Reread post 2625. The payoff is accounted for. Iluv and his Suzuki salespersons are the one who forgot - or at least forgot the KBB value.

rorr

From iluv's rather excited original post:

"...is worth $4,194 according to KBB.com.

Add in a $500 new college grade rebate and buy with $800 down(Sportage 4x4 owed vs. Sportage KBB.com worth, 4WD's snap up more and it's running optimally)..."

Which I take to mean that while the KBB on his Sportage was about $4200, he still owed about $3400; hence he is buying with $800 down. Although it does seem a bit odd that he still owed money on a 5-year old Sportage.

Maybe it was purchased used just a couple of years ago? Hard to tell over his excitement regarding panic buttons and digs at Steeler fans..... :P

logic1

Which I take to mean that while the KBB on his Sportage was about $4200, he still owed about $3400; hence he is buying with $800 down. Although it does seem a bit odd that he still owed money on a 5-year old Sportage

Ok. Missed that. Given the age of the Sportage, I assumed it was free and clear of any liens.

snakeweasel

Which I take to mean that while the KBB on his Sportage was about $4200, he still owed about $3400; hence he is buying with $800 down. Although it does seem a bit odd that he still owed money on a 5-year old Sportage.

That would then leave between $1,500 and 1,600 unaccounted for. The $500 discount plus the $800 equity plus all the payments would come to $15,257.20 which wouldn't cover the MSRP and the destination charges. for those numbers to work out he would have had to pay $1.500 under sticker. I don't think they are going that cheap.

Going that route the numbers do not add up.

rorr

"Going that route the numbers do not add up."

Agreed.

I think the monthly payment he quotes ($232.62 WOO HOO) is based on the little on-line financial calculator at the Suzuki website. For some reason, I think iluv forgot to include the +TTL.......

snakeweasel

Now that makes a lot more sense.

FWIW I went to fitzmall and found the least expensive one they are selling is at $14,994.00 which with TTL and the discount and the trade in (at $800) would make the monthly payments at around $250 with a 60 month zero interest note.

iluvmysephia1

you're right, my numbers are done on the SuzukiAuto site. I haven't actually signed any deals at the Suzuki dealer nor even been there yet. Just some e-mail contact.

I owe $2650 on the '01 Sportage 4x4 but it's worth $4,195, according to KBB.com. That is assuming that the dealer will offer that high on the trade-in.

And, no, it's true that I have left out tax and license fees. It's just a quote, rather rough, from the SuzukiAuto.com website with the emphasis being that I didn't know Suzuki was offering '0'% percent financing. Cool.

Hold your horses, who's getting all excited here, anyway? :P

I am, that's who! You are all right. We shall see what happens.

snakeweasel

I owe $2650 on the '01 Sportage 4x4 but it's worth $4,195, according to KBB.com. That is assuming that the dealer will offer that high on the trade-in.

I am presuming then you bought the Kia used. In any case if you have a Carmax nearby take it there first and get a quote. If you can't get close to it take it back to Carmax. But don't expect to get the KBB value.

Also I have to ask is the $2,650 that you owe the sum of the remaining payments? If so you really owe less.

iluvmysephia1

the $2650 owing is the sum of the remaining payments, indeed. I bought it new on a 72-month note in Sept. of '01.

Mr_Shiftright

If you are trying to figure out at what point a diesel car is more economical than a gas car, you need (to be fair) to calculate not only the 15% extra for the diesel fuel but also the % extra they charge you for the diesel version of any gas car you buy (e.g, VW or Benz).

What I'm driving at is that subcompact diesel cars might have such a high MSRP that they'll collide with compact car prices.

iluvmysephia1

subcompact of the year, the 2007 Suzuki SX4!

Oh, another option I didn't mention that was kind of cool was the tire sensor, notification that your tires are out of inflation calibration. Well, it's better to have it than not, eh?

The one I like that Suzuki doesn't mention but the lady at the gas station mentioned is the gas-o-mpg-a-meter. If that gadget is installed for my viewing pleasure it automatically tracks ghastly consumption of my SX4...Suzuki doesn't even advertise it.

Oh, thank goodness for subcompacts or the automotive world would basically be dead.

snakeweasel

Oh, another option I didn't mention that was kind of cool was the tire sensor,

I do believe that is a federally mandated item, or will be in the very short future.

The one I like that Suzuki doesn't mention but the lady at the gas station mentioned is the gas-o-mpg-a-meter.

More and more cars have those. However my buddies 79 MPG Subaru makes me question them.

iluvmysephia1

I will probably just do my own mpg calibrations, snake. Not that I don't trust the Suzuki Motor Co.'s choice of vendors for this electronic item, but, well, you know.

If I find it be be within a mpg of my own cal.'s I'll trust it a lot more and go from there.

I am searching now in earnest for a 2007 Suzuki SX4 and I have found a willing dealer. Now, to go test drive.

boaz47

Reminds me of the old Turbo Charged New Yorker my wife used to drive. Going down hill to work it would get 99 MPG. Something told me that wasn't true. But if I hit the turbo the drop was dramatic.

sub compacts will still take a long time to overcome the image than the masses have of them. The Comercials for the Versa and now the Avio seem to be trying to address that image.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think that's going to be too difficult an image to correct, because the products accurately reflect the image that the commercials are trying to create...in other words, they will sell themselves to the openly skeptical with the showroom demo and the test drive.

boaz47

Maybe, but do you think they can hold their own on cross shoppers who are looking at a Accord of a Fit if the husband and wife test drive them back to back with a salesman in the back? Sub Compacts haven't sold themselves to other than entry level buyers in the past and if they bump up against the prices of larger cars they will have a hard time doing so this time as well.

Gas dropped again this morning and it is now 90 cents less per gallon than it was in early August. I have to wonder how that will effect sales before the first quarter of 2007.

Mr_Shiftright

Hmmm...don't know...we'll have to see. Gas hasn't dropped that much in California....only 35 cents looks like. And diesel is still way up there.

But whatever gas prices, they are only going up in the future. I hedged my bets on this last year when I bought, and that turned out to be true.

Not every subcompact sale is a panic buy in other words. Traffic, parking, and consumer debt are all grinding away in the market as well I think.

explorerx4

don't forget, california is different.

Mr_Shiftright

different yes, indeed, but we have most of the cars, too, and most of the roads and a lot of the money. It's a huge market and a trend-setter. If any automaker is going to test the waters on a product, they are going to test it in California.

fitluver

The Comercials for the Versa and now the Avio seem to be trying to address that image.

Funny...I no sooner read this when I heard the Aveo commercial behind me.

Maybe I should have watched.

Still lovin the fit tho.