What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

rockylee

To the compact/sub-compact market in a few years.

Rocky

Mr_Shiftright

Ah, another huge mistake for GM if that's true...I was waiting for them to figure out a way to destroy Cadillac for a second time, and by golly, this might DO it! Did Mercedes put their name on the Smart car? Noooooooo.......

snakeweasel

Not sure if thats the right thing to do. It would be hard for Cadillac to pull off a luxury compact.

fintail

They pulled off the Cimmaron didn't they? Oh...

Mr_Shiftright

And Packard brought out a compact economy "stripper" model, didn't they? Oh.....

fintail

I know in the eyes of many, the start of the 120 series cars takes places at the end of Packard's glory. Not a coincidence.

Of course the 120s were not compact...but overly-lower line cars don't do good for highline images. Caddy would be stupid to shoot lower than the CTS. The same reason you can't get 4cyl E-class etc in NA. Image.

I think that's what you are saying anyway.

imidazol97

Maybe Caddy should bring out a new, separate line of cars. They can sell them from within their buildings but act as though they are a completely separate brand. Maybe call them the Ctsion. They could eventually require separate buildings.

That way if they don't take off they are just an experiment, and not a failure.

fintail

I know you are joking, but Caddy doesn't really have a valid reason to aim lower anyway. Too much overlap at GM as there is, just as there has been for decades.

rockylee

I think if Cadillac, could share a platform with saab, since they are going to make a small compact then it could work. Guys remember this is for the European market, at first not the U.S. so don't get your panties in a twist. :P

Rocky

fintail

They already have the BLS, right? Or did that not make it into production? That's not really a compact though. To be relevant to this thread, wouldn't we be talking about a Cobalt sized Caddy?

It could work in other markets if the Cadillac name could be given value in those markets (it has next to none outside NA right now), just as lesser sized and equipped German luxo-makes sell in other markets. But I just can't see it here.

rockylee

They already have the BLS, right?

Yep it's in production.

I think in the Euro-market it might work. The Saab version defintely will if it's done right. GM, needs to get another high profile celebrity to help them market cars in Europe. Maybe somebody like a James Blunt ?

Rocky

fintail

I guess we'll have to see how the BLS sells. Euros haven't been impressed with previous Caddys.

But for this market...I can't go smaller than CTS. Anything else really works against the credibility of the brand. No other highline maker goes lower.

rockylee

No other highline maker goes lower.

How bout Acura ?

Rocky

fintail

I thought Caddy was aiming for Lexus/BMW/MB

rockylee

They are....Why can't they also jump into a large volume market in Europe ?

Rocky

fintail

Because the name has little value or heritage there, and people are VERY loyal to their 3ers especially, and C class.

I'm not saying some wouldn't sell...but nobody will be scared.

rockylee

Well, if the product is good enough it should sell. I will respect them for at least trying. They need to gain marketshare again.

Rocky

lilengineerboy

Just say no to the Cimmeron

bobw3

I'm actually looking at getting a Fit or Versa because it will fit a lot better in my garage. Even if the Fit is close in price to the Civic, for example, I'd rather have the Fit since it feels roomier than the Civic (or Accord actually), holds more stuff, and fits into my garage better. I always like to have maximum interior space with the minimum exterior space. And the practicality of a 4 door hatch always beats a sedan. If you look on the Fit group and see who's posting, it's not the normal econ-demographic.

boaz47

Might not be panic buys, I agree but last night I filled up and gas was 254.9. That is a whole buck lower than I paid early august. It was a great relief to me and I don't drive a big SUV.

chrisducati

Now that it is election time and prices have fallen I wonder how many people will forget the acid pain of over 3 dollars a gallon? I for one will not forget it. Our 13mpg SUV is leaving at the end of January. My list is the Fit, Versa, xA,(wishing for the Swift) SX4. The SX4 will probably lose because of MPG. We have owned Suzuki's before and they have been good cars but they got in the upper 30's lower 40's for MPG. I can't see under 30mpg for a car this size. Larger cars get better mpg. I imagine that it will come down to price and availability. If a dealer has what we want on the lot and I do not have to wait 6 months for an order to come in (are you listening Toyota?) then that is the car we will buy.

qbrozen

I just saw $2.19 at a station yesterday. I think I'm going to trade my Accord on a Hummer.

thegraduate

I'd rather have the Fit since it feels roomier than the Civic (or Accord actually),

As a 6 foot 4 individual, I whole-heartedly albeit respectfully, disagree. The Fit felt tiny compared to my Accord, whereas the Civic was much more acceptable.

bobw3

If you felt better in a Civic, I'm guessing that you had the seat all the way back and at a pretty good angle? And maybe you didn't do that with the Fit? I'm only 5'7" and most of our height difference is in our legs, so maybe the Accord and Civic have more room for your legs and feet (which isn't a big deal for me!), but for me the Fit felt roomier from the torso up.

snakeweasel

If you felt better in a Civic, I'm guessing that you had the seat all the way back and at a pretty good angle?

I would think so as I am near his height and found that if I didn't have the seat tilted back my head was touching the ceiling. I also had trouble with elbow room in the Civic.

I will have to check out the Fit.

andre1969

cars like the Fit, xA, Yaris, etc are kinda like little minivans in the seating position. That is, if you need the headroom they have it. And if you have short legs, or even long legs but don't mind sitting in an upright position, they're fine.

However, if what you really need is stretch-out room, with a good distance between the seat and the footwell, these cars are, again, like little minivans. Not much stretch-out room. They're not the type of car where you can put the seat all the way back, and stretch your left leg out straight out and barely be able to touch the firewall. The Corolla and Versa are like this too.

I sat in the Civic at the auto show, and it felt fine to me with respect to legroom and headroom. And even with the seat all the way back and reclined to where I'm comfortable, there was still pretty good room in the back. I didn't notice how elbow room felt, though.

While I prefer a larger car, I could probably handle a Civic pretty well, although I dunno how well it's going to ride. I could probably tolerate something like a Fit, xA, or Yaris if I had to, but thankfully here in America we do have this little freedom called "choice".

boaz47

between what the mass consumer market in the US wants and is willing to buy and what we in these forums will consider. Many of us live and breath cars and trucks and can't understand why other don't research their choices better. But the popularity of Mini-Vans and then SUVs prove that we are in the minority. The image problem Sub Compacts suffer is with that majority. If you can get a small car for 14k with 100 HP and at the very same dealership you can get a bigger car with 150 HP for 14.5k it is often more reasonable to get the bigger car because you can use it to take your friends to dinner, even if you never take your friends to dinner. Sub Compacts have to over come the image the Versa commercial is trying to deal with, Auto Claustrophobia. People didn't buy SUVs because they all felt they needed one for off road work or to get through the snow, they got them because they could see themselves going off road or through the snow, even if they never did. That mind set isn't likely to change for Americans any time soon. We were founded on the belief that if we work hard we can have anything we want, a Big house, a Big car, a big boat and Big job. Give an American a raise and they will spend it to get the bigger whatever.

Need has nothing to do with our buying habits and Madison Avenue knows perfectly well that is the case. They will advertise to our wants and the manufacturers will build to our wants, that is how it is and most likely will be for as long as any of us are still able to drive. Much like Nippon I have had many small car. Unlike Nippon I have had larger cars and trucks as well. I can say without a doubt that a big truck is move comfortable than a little truck and because they no longer make little trucks I believe most fellow Americans agree. Little cars have the same image problem to over come now as they had after the recovery in the early 80s.

plekto

The thing about auto claustrophobia is that it's probably the #1 reason people buy bigger cars and SUVs. MOst SUVs aren't sold with 4*4, actually. Most trucks aren't, either. People want a tall roofline like you used to find in cars in the 50s and 60s. They want flatter glass and more ledges/breaks in the designs - so it doesn't feel like some high-tech isolation-pod that you are strapped into.

My old Mercedes? Silly high roofline. Feels as open and airy as a GMC 2500. Even my old Buick LeSabre was fine(original FWD version). Plenty of glass, good angles...

The new Civic is the ultimate systhesis of the current concept in design. Can't see the hood, can't see out of the back. Feels small, tight, and like you are hunched over the wheel. The designers want to make the cars look like some sort of low to the ground racecar.

Yet consumers buy the largest number of vehicles based upon the most glass and the squarest angles. Americans hate small unless it has a convertable top(Miata for instance is still a runaway hit because of this) A Miata-like sedan? Not so much(RX-8 sells pretty slowly by comparison)

daysailer

"People didn't buy SUVs because they all felt they needed one for off road work or to get through the snow, they got them because they could see themselves going off road or through the snow, even if they never did."

Or, they imagine their neighbor going off road and can't stand to be upstaged, enen in their imagination. But no matter how prevalent that that sentiment may be, it is no less irrational. If someone's starting premiss is that bigger is better in all things and for whatever reason and he holds that premiss as immutable fact, reason is lost on him (or her).

boaz47

I think you are correct. And we have to realize that none of us are saying that "no-one" will what or does want a Sub Compact. It is the question of how many will want them and for how long? Time after time they try to introduce sub compacts and sometimes they do pretty well at first. But sooner or later someone will make a sub compact with more ponies than every one elses sub compact at about the same price. Then someone will make their sub compact just a bit wider and smoother than the other sub compacts and sooner or later they will be compacts and we will be waiting for a whole new series of sub compacts. The manufacturers know this better than we do. I think that is why they resist sending us their smaller offerings. We are a nation of people that are always looking to buy up till it is time to retire. That super size for 35 cents more mentality will make sub compacts a niche market for a very long time. Smaller than a SUV does not make a vehicle a Sub Compact. The Versa is Compact size as is the Caliber. Even the xB is not sub Compact size, it is just that some of them have sub compact motors. Like I have mentioned before, even the mini is bigger than the old mini. Size does matter.

boaz47

Yes, I believe you are spot on. It is a American Cultural ideal. Success equals a bigger whatever you can buy. No one drives through a neighborhood during Christmas looking at lights and says, oh how practicle that house looks. They ooh and aah at the biggest and brightest.

andre1969

that a good number of SUVs (not pickups now) actually ARE 4wd. Even though most buyers will never have the need for 4wd, the dealers still load these things up with 4wd, so for 2wd you might have to hunt around or special order.

Plus, the masses have been brainwashed into thinking that anything with FWD or, gasp, RWD, is automatically a death trap in the snow, and totally forgetting about our forefathers and mothers went for eons with overpowered RWD cars with light rear-ends and bias ply tires, yet somehow managed not to make the human species extinct.

bobw3

But how many people really ooh and aah at the giant SUVs driving around? I think some people buy first what they can afford. If they can spend $30-40+k for a car, then they do. So they're not going to even look at the sub-compacts. And they don't care about mpg. They'll buy their Lexus or BMW because that's what their friends, family and people in the neighborhood drive.

For people that want to spend less than $20k on a car, then they'll start looking at the sub-compacts, but then there's also the used car market. Why not buy a 3 year old big car vs a new sub-compact.

People are influenced on car buying by the media, but also on practical things. People aren't flocking to Honda or Toyota because of commercials, but because they build quality vehicles. They buy bigger vehicles because they're perceived to be safer (and generally are safer if compared to smaller vehicles with similar crash test ratings). So while the commercial, keeping up with the Jones, and all that influence car buyer decision, I think that today's consumer is making more informed decision that a generation ago.

boaz47

While this is Completely off subject I know how it got that way at least for me. I move to the mountains and had three cars. One with 4WD one with RWD and one with FWD. The RWD car was a pony car and had bunches of HP with no rear weight. The very first snow and that car would break the tires lose just sifting into 2nd gear. Not a problem down in the flat lands but on mountain roads the pucker factor was inhansed quite a bit. The car became a 3 season car. However if I got caught in the snow in the 626 it wasn't so bad as long as I kept the car moving. The 4WD could even get moving on a hill in the snow. Studded tires helped on the FWD car and to a degree with the RWD but once a slide started the correction on the RWD car was much harder than with the FWD. Not that I couldn't drive the RWD in the snow.. It just took a lot more effort. My wife wouldn't even attempt the RWD car. She even made me leave the 4X4 at home if it looked like snow. I now have two FWD drive cars and an extra set of studded tires.

iluvmysephia1

roof, something around 68" I believe, as opposed to the Scion xA's 60". It has that tall seating position and all the w's, l's and m's power. A/C with Micron Filter included as standard equipment, as well as front and side airbags and side curtain airbags standard.

4-wheel disc brakes with ABS and Electronic Brake Force Distribution all come standard equipment. Plus, a nice little diamond-shaped notch at the bottom of the A-Pillar. Most interesting design and one that Fiat only enhances with their European influence.

As for it's drivetrain, the 2007 Suzuki SX4 is truly unique in that one can switch it to FWD(2WD) for optimum ghastly mileage yet still have the option to toggle to AWD-Auto for rainy driving conditions or even toggle to AWD-Lock to lock the axles together for 4WD driving. Once things improve and you're up to 36 mph the drivetrain sensor bonks you back into AWD-Auto. If you want to go back into FWD(2WD)again all it takes is a flip of the easy-to-reach toggle switch and you're zipping along in FWD.

I like this car's driving stance and I like it's design. By all rights I'll be trading in for one of these SX's. All the research is done.

You know there are other cars, SUV's and trucks available out there but they're either too expensive, too boring, too plain or too non-utilitarian for me. Suzuki offers trainloads of amenities with this SX4 and it's another Asian company like Kia that backs it up with a great Warranty. They supply a loaner for up to 5 days should a Warranty part fail and need replacing. Tows are covered if needed, etc.

There are some striking similarities to Kia Motors of South Korea with Suzuki. Over. And out.

Mr_Shiftright

I think there is a flaw though in your otherwise excellent logic...the "autoclaustrophobia" is a myth in today's subcompacts. They aren't claustrophobic, and so when consumers sit in them they will realize this.

Also I don't know of any 150HP car you can bu*fully equipped* for $14,5K, but maybe I'm missing something.

If you want a car that is *actually* larger and *actually* more powerful than an xA or Fit or whatever, you're going to have to spend close to 18K to get it. This is why subcompacts are selling...it's not primarily gas mileage, it's simply....GREAT VALUE....

snakeweasel

roof, something around 68" I believe, as opposed to the Scion xA's 60".

So you are saying its taller, therefore with a higher center of gravity, therefore more likely to roll over on those curves?

boaz47

Have you ever noticed that some of your posts look like you have made them up ahead of time and are just slotted in here and there in different forums like a commercial add? We could be talking about hybrids, diesel, or the future of Ferrari you will pop in with how you are thinking about buying another Sportage, or a xA in Red or a Suzuki. while we have drifted into SUV and other territory isn't the the SX4 a Compact SUV not a sub compact? However it is interesting to hear you rattle off what sounds for all the world like a sales brochure for the SX4.

I will have to admit you are enthusiastic.

boaz47

Myth or not, it is used in advertising and that will be what people already feel and are having reinforced on television. With all the incentives it isn't hard to get a bigger car with Cruise control for 14.5k. You can't even get that in a xA as I understand it, not that I own one and know for sure. There are plenty of Civic, Corolla and Mazdas that can be had for 14.5 with a factory incentive and you get more HP to boot. Just pick up and Auto add on Sunday. And yes gas has dropped a buck for my area. But then I down sized in 2001 and it will take a lot more than 3 bucks a gallon to make up for the difference between my Ram Charger or 460 F-250 and the Focus. There are times the Focus feels a bit small on longer trips, I know a sub compact will feel even smaller. At least any true sub compact will. can you get a Auto stick with a Sub Compact by the way? Not what I want but I wanted to know?

plekto

Well, the Honda Fit and Scion Xb are a good examples of what I was mentioning.(and both sell out almost so fast you have to order one) The new RAV-4 and SX4 are also good examples.

Size isn't the problem. People love small as much as they love big cars. It's the interior that they have a problem with. They want it to feel big and airy inside. They want good visibility and at least 6-8 inches of space around their head and arms if possible. They hate the whole high beltline/small window fad that's going on right now.

Take a look at the latest Crown Vic. It's big all right, but it feels like you are sitting too low and peering out of some window in a ship. It's very claustrophobic. The new Civic is simmilar. Of course, the interior is nice and spacious for its size, but the roof sloppes down too fast, you can't see the edges of the car, and well - test drive a new Civic or Accord and then a 2006 Accord. Which is easier to drive and feels bigger inside? Yep - the old one.

The Fit - it's tiny. Only a couple of inches longer than a Mini. But unlike the Mini, where you feel strapped into it it's so tight, thr Fit is tall and has superb visibility for a car that small. Compare it to the Yaris or even the Scion Tc and it's clear which one feels bigger inside(the Tc, while nice, has an unsueable rear seat for adults unless you duck your head or are under 5'4") The Yaris I hit my head on the rear of the 3-door and had to hunch over like in an old 280Z or 911. I'm 5'7" and 160lbs, so I should fit perfectly well, shouldn't I?

Yet the XB and Matrix get it right - so it;s not a matter of not being able to do it, it's more a matter of properly designing them and hiring new people.

thegraduate

I am very long legged and have a relatively short torso, so it is quite possible to get very different impressions with similar sized people. The Civic's headroom was not as good as the Accord (both Civic and Accord were sunroof-equipped EX model sedans) or Fit, but legroom seemed adequate in my short test drive. In all cars I ever try-out, the seat goes to all the way back for me, with the backrest at a pretty straight-up angle. I don't see how certain people can lay-down and drive!

nippononly

Naw, the SX4 he's raving about is a small wagon, actually a bit SMALLER than the Aerio SX it replaces (how's that for a counter-example to the theme you always put forth that automakers always enlarge their cars when they reeingineer them? :-)).

It's got a high roof and a short wheelbase, and less space inside than an Impreza wagon. But it's a heck of a deal in base form at $15K, which includes the AWD.

Never take for granted that the cheaper model than the one you've tried will have less elbow and legroom than the one you've tried. The Fit and Civic are a perfect case in point: there is lots more real-person space in the Fit. I have no idea what the numbers say.

iluvmysephia1

built with a high roof, but, it will not have a tendency to tip over because the smart Suzuki engineers designed it with a wide enough stance that it will hold to the road. Plus, they are installing P205/60R16 Yokohama's for good traction in AWD conditions.

I was waiting for Kia to come up with a rig like this but they haven't and this one has a 7 year, 100,000 mile Warranty. If you have a Warranty claim it will be fixed and you will be given a loaner car while the work's being done. As far as I know Kia doesn't offer this. We're a one-car couple so that's important. Not only that but the Mrs.doesn't drive so if there's a Warranty claim I will need them to give me a loaner. Bingo! Suzuki offers it.

I've done my paperwork and it's now just a matter of when to go in and test drive and sign a deal.

These cars are made by Suzuki and Fiat, BTW. They are Italian shop-designed and it shows. The car has really inspiring line flow, right down to that little notch at the front bottom of the A-Pillar. Very nice.

Suzuki makes these in Japan for our market(40,000 of them to be sold partly in the U.S.)and Fiat will build them in Hungary for the hungry European market(20,000 of them).

snakeweasel

built with a high roof, but, it will not have a tendency to tip over because the smart Suzuki engineers designed....

So you're saying that they added ballast which makes it heavier which reduces its gas mileage. FWIW the tires won't make a lick of difference if you take the turn to fast and start to tip over.

These cars are made by Suzuki and Fiat,

Wow Fiat. You know what Fiat means don't you?

Sorry the SX4 really doesn't impress me. I'll stay with my Elantra, it has more cargo area, better gas mileage and its the best car to have (its paid for and it runs :shades: )

lhanson

Unlike Hyundai and Kia, the 100,000 mile warranty is fully transferrable to the second buyer.

rorr

"...and its the best car to have (its paid for and it runs)."

Excellent!

In that case, I want snakeweasel's car......

iluvmysephia1

lhanson has added yet another smart, smart entry from Suzuki. The 7 year, 100,000 Warranty is fully transferable. Very nice.

It appears that Suzuki has been taking their smart pills. Their future is so bright they best be wearing their Billy Gibbons shades. I've got to go see ZZ Top again.

The last time I saw ZZ Top it was in 1975 in Seattle. Somebody threw an M-80 from the rafters and it landed right smack-dab in the middle of about fifty people clustered together on the floor of the Coliseum. And, yes, it did go off. Hopefully nobody was hurt.

It made a loud BOOM! though I remember. But, I digress. I see Suzuki in my future. Ahh...so, that Suzuki 'S' with it's distinctive lines on the grille up front.

Arizona is a no front license plate state, too, so there will be no front plate to distract from the beauty of that 'S' up there, either.

BTW, my new Arizona driver's license was issued on August 14, 2006 and it doesn't expire until August 20, 2024!

Your thoughts on that one are certainly welcome. :shades:

Mexican Blackbird sounded exquisitely delicious that night in Seattle. Those boys are three of the best in blues on the planet right now.

rockylee should take in a show, ZZ Top is from Texas, what town I don't know(rockylee was supposed to research that for me and didn't get back to me). rockylee is in a prime location to go take in a ZZ Top show, eh?

logic1

No Seattle Seahawk references today. Wonder why :sick:

reddroverr

What's the word?

iluvmysephia1

but watch and see Chicago falter if they had to play the S-Hawks in beautiful Seattle, WA. The Seahawks are still right on target for getting back into the Big Guy.

Hopefully, the NFL front office will play by their own rules this time and put real referees in there.

What's this got to do with Suzuki anyway? They are full of smartness lately and the 2007 Suzuki SX4 is an aching bargain waiting to be picked up. Indeed.