Stories from the Sales Frontlines

oregonboy

it would still be more efficient to bypass the hydrogen part and simply use the power source to propel the vehicle.

My thoughts exactly. I was just too lazy to say it out loud.

verdugo

I do not expect them in mass for a long time but Honda, BMW, Hyundai, MB and others see the potential and have built cars.

I've seen a Nissan X-Trail and a 7-series BMW converted to Hydrogen driving around town. I guess being the state capital of California, they want to show them off.

stickguy

I'm waiting on the advances on bio fuel. Stuff like algae gas (whatever that process is called). And cellulotic stuff. Get rid of that compostable garbage!

fushigi

Certainly test cars exist to demonstrate that hydrogen can be used as a fuel source but the tech overall is simply not currently viable for the mass market. And it will remain that way until some means of generating hydrogen is developed that is more efficient than simply using the means itself.

There are other alternatives, including natural gas. It is a viable form of fuel for vehicles and is in use in areas of the world outside the US.

From what I've read, though, among dino-based fuels gas/diesel simply have the best storage density; i.e. most propulsive power/kg of fuel.

Electric cars are our best potential for dramatically reducing and maybe eliminating gas consumption, but even then you will have cars like the Volt which do still burn some gas or you will need to build out a massive infrastructure to support fast charging or battery swapping; neither of which is particularly safe or cheap.

It's all a matter of baby steps to me. "Gas hogs" have given way to relatively thrifty 4 & 6 cyl engines. Those are being refined even more. Hybrids are raising economy another 20-30%. Voltec will go further. Something else will take it to the next level, and so on, with each level being an incremental improvement over the last.

snakeweasel

Seeing a potential and realizing that potential are two different realities. Unless something comes along that easily and magically breaks up water into oxygen and hydrogen hydrogen cars will just only have "potential".

snakeweasel

I am just waiting for something like this:

grandtotal

I do not expect them in mass for a long time but Honda, BMW, Hyundai, MB and others see the potential and have built cars.

What you are seeing is that they are demonstrating that it is possible to power a car with hydrogen. It is politically expedient that they demonstrate that it is possible and that if a hydrogen infrastructure could be built then they are willing and able to use it.

fushigi

Love it. That's about right, too, considering the size of those things. I don't think I'd ever ride in one let alone drive one myself. I just wouldn't feel safe and IMO the economy they give comes with too many sacrifices, especially since a Civic, Corolla, or other car in that class can do about as well while providing tons more room.

I saw a sandwich shop yesterday evening that is using a Smart for deliveries. No wind-up key on it; perhaps they take it off to save weight. :P

isellhondas

We took in another Smart Car.

Honestly, I would rather walk then even ride in it.

lrguy44

We call them notso

jayrider

Let's say there was a breakthrough and engines could run on plain water with just a tad of an additive. Bet you would still pay $2-3 per gallon by the time the stuff was manufactured-shipped-wholesaled then retailed. Emissions issues would be resolved but mpg on water may not be so great.
We need mini nuclear reactors in each car to do it right. Might make those exploding gas tanks in collisions a thing of the past. Just a little mushroom cloud here and there.

biancar

Cute!

Someone down the street from us actually has one of those things. We live about a mile from the Beltway around D.C. I would be terrified to be in that thing when the big 18-wheelers go whooshing past.

They would be the perfect car for someone who lives in one of those ginormous golf-course communities where you can never drive over 30 mph anyway, but it's too far to walk to the drugstore, bank, grocery store and restaurants.

For real-world driving for those of us under age 70 - no way.

fezo

Oh what you want is a Ford Nucleon!

Craig - what you need is another Smart for the other foot.

isellhondas

Steve, I was thinking you should fly in and drive it home!

Think of the adventure and thrills you would have!

fezo

Thrills all right. Like riding in a roller coaster without a restraint!

Kirstie_H

Yeah, we have a neighbor with one too. I suspect she's retired, and all of the streets leading out to our (small town) main road have a 25 MPH speed limit. So, if her main journeys are to local establishments, it probably makes sense for her.

For the Summer, we use our own version of a 'smart' car for those short trips - it's got two wheels and the word "Yamaha" printed on the side.

lrguy44

We use ours for long trips too - but then again itsays HD Just Kidding

snakeweasel

especially since a Civic, Corolla, or other car in that class can do about as well while providing tons more room.

The Highway rating for the Civic and Corolla are only 1 or 2 MPG better than the city rating for the Smart. Want to try that again?

As for room I would wager there is a large segment of cars out there where that more room is wasted space.

biancar

If that's how your neighbor uses it, that is indeed "Smart." In all senses of the term. Actually, wasn't that the sort of thing it was designed for? City or small-town driving where you don't have to go far or at high speeds, but you want a car, not a motorcycle, to get you there.

Using it like that makes sense.

nyccarguy

Everyone's heard the "dealer really tried to screw me on the trade" story from somebody along the line. Have you sales pros (or customers here) every given someone a dollar amount on a trade that they either expected or were absolutely blown away by (in a good way)?

fushigi

Alright, I'll try again.

Edmunds 5 year TCO for a used 2009 smart fourtwo passion is $29,347.
A used 2009 Civic DX 2-door 5MT (closest body & powertrain match) is $29,737.

Zip code is the default.

Over 5 years the Civic costs $390 more. That's $6.50 a month more or roughly one Whopper with cheese value meal.

driver100

Edmunds 5 year TCO for a used 2009 smart fourtwo passion is $29,347.

I know 2 people who own Smart cars. Both are misguided tree huggers. They are trying to do what is right for the planet, but they are forgetting about their own safety.

One of these people had to drive 60 miles on a highway in a rainstorm. Says he was scared out of his mind. But he is convinced he is doing the right thing. This one is a professional who wants to start an organic farm. That's a whole other story and another bad idea. I had to explain the food will cost 5X as much and we won't have enough of it...we'll all starve if all farming goes that way.

houdini1

There is nothing smart about that silly little car. Except maybe the profits Mercedes is making. If it got 60 or 70 mpg and cost about $6,000. then it might be a smart neighborhood vehicle.

As it is, only a kook would buy one.

oldfarmer50

A lot of times we hear about a crooked dealer selling a customer a car that later turns out to be junk. Yesterday I saw something that shows that even the dealer can be had.

I was driving near the Manhiem location and I was two car behind a Subaru (not sure of the model). My view was blocked by a cube van so I couldn't see the car at first. What I did see was smoke.

Within a mile of leaving the auction the Subie started smoking, not too much at first, but more and more as we went along. The van turned off and I was directly behind the car. I could see that the white smoke was getting worse with time. I started smelling oil and the smoke started billowing out the tail pipe and obscuring the road ahead. Finally, the driver must have noticed it too and pulled into a side street. At the very least the car had a blown head but the heavy oil smell made me think a totally blown motor.

So it seems the used car manager got taken on this one. Does this happen often in the car business? Is there recourse at the auction for this kind of thing or do you just take the seller out behind the garage?

BTW, how would you conceal that the Subie was in such bad condition? It only started smoking miles down the road.

houdini1

Well, as some on here would say, it is normal for all cars to use some oil ! It was probably operating within a tolerable range !

oldfarmer50

LOL Now that's funny, I don't care who you are! :lemon:

graphicguy

oldfarmer....whoever bought that Subie (be it a used car manager, or a lease turn in, it's pretty hard to conceal a blown head, or blown motor. Somewhere, somehow, it's going to become noticeable pretty quickly. The smoking tailpipe would be only one piece of evidence.

The car had to be making some pretty bad sounds, even on initial startup, before it started billowing smoke.

I've never run into a used car manager who couldn't put their finger on a "dud" used car. I've met some who, like us, fall in love with a trade, and put too much money into a car. But, never one who couldn't identify a "broken" car.

graphicguy

houdini....as some have noted, I have a genuine distaste for the SMART car. I don't understand it's purpose. Nor, would I ever consider it a good car, well....for anything....even strictly as a city car. There are just too many other better alternatives. Just wait until the Fiat 500 hits Chrysler dealerships. That will be the end of the SMART car market (if a viable one actually exists).

oldfarmer50

"...we'll all starve if all farming goes that way..."

Woow, healthy food and we take care of obesity too! :shades:

imidazol97

>"...we'll all starve if all farming goes that way..."

<Woow, healthy food and we take care of obesity too!

And we won't even have to use to the death panels to deny coverage on the part of the National Health Care Program. They'll put Jenny Craig out of business.

oldfarmer50

"...who couldn't put their finger on a "dud"..."

That was my thought too. Even though the car wasn't smoking when it left the gate it was a goner within a few miles. How could you miss seeing the car was in such rough shape. Maybe the buyer was aware of the engine and had another from a wrecked Subie sitting back at the lot.

Another thing I saw while out and about yesterday was a brand new Kia (sticker still in window) sitting in a driveway with dealer plates. It made me wonder if the salesmen are allowed to tool around in the new inventory or maybe they are letting people take them home "to show the wife". I heard of that being done but it's not the usual thing in my area. :confuse:

Oh, one more auction related thing. A transport driver in a VW ran my school bus reds while I was picking up students. I guess those $7/hour drivers are worth every penny you pay. :mad:

imidazol97

>and about yesterday was a brand new Kia (sticker still in window) sitting in a driveway with dealer plates.

Or they loaned it out for an extended test drive to a customer who had it parked in the driveway.

>car was in such rough shape

I wonder if the leaking head gasket didn't show up until the pressure in the cooling system built up as the engine warmed up. Or maye the Barr's Leak let go!

oldfarmer50

"...Or maybe the Barr's Leak let go..."

Ha ha. Don't knock that Barr's Stop Leak. My Hooptie van would still be spitting out anti-freeze without it. :lemon:

It does make you wonder what the scammers use these days to cover up the problems. I don't think you can use the old sawdust in the transmission or 4 quarts of STP in the motor. To many sensors that would make that check engine light come on.

snakeweasel

My last car purchase I got what I expected for my trade in. However I had to fight a bit for it and I was being very realistic on what the car was worth (very little as it had some body damage and almost 180K miles on it).

isellhondas

It happens. People trade in cars that have bad transmissions or blown head gaskets. they make sure the transmissions are warmed up so we can't tell they have "morning sickness" or the bring the head gasket cars in cold so when we drive them a short distance they don't overheat on us.

snakeweasel

Alright I will try again. If you buy a car and sell it a few years later you are not being fiscally prudent so the argument of a TCO estiments is inherently flawed.

Now if you are really interested in being fiscally prudent you buy a car every 10-15 years and out 150K miles or more on it. You should really keep a car until the value is mostly gone if you want to talk about which way is the least expensive. So the question then becomes how much would you save over a 10-15 year spread. I would presume it would be significant in gas, interest payments on a loan and a few other things.

snakeweasel

Since only small scooters get 70 MPG why would you ever expect a car to get that?

snakeweasel

Woow, healthy food and we take care of obesity too!

We can solve the obesity the same way we created it. Change the definition of what obese is.

snakeweasel

maybe they are letting people take them home "to show the wife". I heard of that being done but it's not the usual thing in my area.

I have been made that offer a few times even after I told the salesman I was just looking around, sort of "scouting out" cars.

snakeweasel

Wouldn't the drive to the dealership warm up the car?

Or would someone park the car down the street for several hours for the car to cool down?

sterlingdog

Yes, I had a trade that blew me away. Believe it or not, it was on that sorry [non-permissible content removed] Caddy that I have written about on this thread. When I went to buy my new Explorer in '03, the salesman offered me exactly what my research had indicated the Caddy was worth. I told the guy that I would bring my wife in to see the Explorer. He must have thought that the trade offer turned me off, though it didn't at all. I was thrilled to be getting rid of that piece of junk.

Before I could return on Saturday morning with my wife, the dealer himself called. He offered me $5K more for the DeVille! My wife didn't even go with me. She said, "Go right now and get that Explorer!" When I arrived, I discovered that another salesman wanted my trade for his wife's real estate business. He had asked the dealer to call me and up the offer. It was the best deal that I ever got, especially for the worst :lemon: this side of hell.

Richard

oldfarmer50

"...been made that offer a few times..."

I bet you rich guys like jipster, richard and yourself get that kind of treatment. The way I dress the saleman probably worries that I won't bring it back. :sick:

imidazol97

>salesman wanted my trade for his wife's real estate business.

Would you ask the salesman if his wife still has the car for her business? It would be interesting...

sterlingdog

My Chrysler dealer has a Smart car on his lot. I asked him yesterday how he got it. He said that a customer traded it in after only 60 days! It seems that the customer nearly got killed in it twice on the open highway. He figures that one of the college kids or some old lady in the area will buy it. We both agreed that the car is a permission slip to the morgue.

Ri9chard

sterlingdog

I would, but the Ford dealership went out of business a year later in '04. I figure the dealership gave too much for trades. :P

Richard

sterlingdog

Those Jenny Craig commercials slay me. She appears in a black dress bragging about her weight loss. The funny thing is that she still looks fat.

Richard

sterlingdog

I hope that you got his plate number and turned him in to the HP. :mad:

Richard

jayrider

What you say makes sense snake, but if folks followed that plan for cars and other durable goods, the economy would collapse and never recover. Our way of life depends on the fact that most people are hardwired to spend even when it doesn't make sense. The dream of fulfillment through the acquisition of goodies. "See the USA in your Chevrolet." Wish I still had my 71 impala custom coupe -- beige brown vinyl top with brown interior.

houdini1

Some small diesels get close to that now...in much larger and heavier vehicles. Shouldn't be a problem in a car that small and light.

snakeweasel

Rich? Me? I was driving up in a 9 year old Hyundai when those offers were made. That doesn't scream out rich.

"I'm just a poor corrupt government official" - Captain Renault (Casablanca)