Stories from the Sales Frontlines

oldfarmer50

"...can't think of any time...I've needed a lot of power..."

Years ago the school I work for experimented with "green" natural gas powered buses. Total flops. For some reason they were so underpowered that they were actually dangerous when pulling out into traffic. Many near misses later the district dumped them all and went back to diesels. Hard to believe that a diesel school bus could be called "fast" but believe me, there's nothing more scary than pulling out into the street and seeing a car flying at you and your vehicle WILL JUST NOT MOVE. :surprise:

nyccarguy

You all bring up some excellent points (as usual).

kyfdx - You're dead on about leasing. Most people don't understand it. It can really work well for you as an alternate way of financing IF you drive within the set parameters of the leasing contract. You just have to be flexible as different manufactures offer different financing or leasing incentives depending on the month. For instance, BMW is offering those $4XX per month $0 Down leases right now (I know the advertised rates are not the lowest). If you went and leased the 3 series now, in 3 years that same car might cost you $6XX per month to lease. So you'd have to go to a different manufacturer.

Someone made a comment about buying out at the end of a lease being very expensive. If you pay the residual on the leasing contract, then yes it can be expensive. At the end of July, many of you know that I turned in our beloved 2007 BMW X3 back in at lease end. When new, it was a $40K truck. The lease residual according to BMWFS in 2007 was 65% and the buyout at the end of my lease was to be $26,000 (roughly). I was offered by my dealer (not BMWFS) to buy the car for $21,600 straight up (not as a CPO).

Now my lease payment was $471.67 per month for 3 years. If I would have known BMW was going to be so generous with lease end negotiations, I would have driven it A LOT more and then paid A LOT less for the car at lease end. I was able to stay within my lease miles ONLY because I bought a 2010 Acura TSX during the cash 4 clunkers melee last summer.

I seriously contemplated buying out the X3 at lease end, but I had just bought a house and didn't have the cash. Financing a 3 year old BMW with 45K miles just wasn't a smart move, epecially since I don't need a 3rd car.

nyccarguy

This is an interesting topic to me. I'm 34 and every car I've ever bought has been new (except for the 1990 BMW 325i I bought as a project car). Now I know that cars made today last A LOT longer than they used to (Case in point is my 2001 Honda Prelude Type SH with over 128,000 miles). I really think I'm going to outgrow it or just want something new before my Prelude's time is up.

You guys all make compelling arguments about buying a well maintained, 4 year old, used car.

Now I'm into cars and do a lot of driving. My commute is 71 miles round trip, 6 days a week. I'm going to drive over 21,000 miles this year in just commuting alone. As many of you also know, I LOVE BMWs. I really dig the X5 ($60,000 with tax).

Assmuing I will have to take a loan out on whatever I buy next, what do I do?

Buy new and use BMWs 1.9% for 60 month financing. When I get done paying for the truck, it will have 100,000 miles on it. Then I'll hopefully keep it for another 3-4 years.

Buy a 1 year old CPO X5 or DEMO at a significant discount over new (say just for kicks, $45,000) and keep it until it is 8 years old.

Take over a lease on leasetrader or swapalease for $700 per month for 2 years and then buy it out at lease end at a significant discount off the asking residual value and keep it until it is 8 years old.

Buy a 3 year old X5 with low miles (CPO or private sale) for (I don't know, $30 - $35K) and keep it until it is 8-10 years old.

fezo

The used car you want is the one I owned from new. Well maintained -- never abused-- no kids, pets or smoking. Nothing for sale at the moment.

You darned tease!

isellhondas

BMW must have been desperate.

I've never heard of residuals being negiotable. and it seems like doing this would open a can of worms.

A 65% residual on a BMW is NUTS! They must have needed to dump a bunch of cars so in desperation they had a crazy, unrealistic lease. The only way to have low payments is to have a high residual.

They probably figured they would worry about that problem three years down the road!

X3's arent the best sellers as used cars and they can go for thousands of dollars below book at the auctions. Knowing that and fearing the worst they probably decided to negioate.

dino001

It's not residual, it's the buy option that is negotiable with some companies at the end of the lease (I know Honda is not one of them, but many others would rather discount the lease turned car and sell it to you than hassle with reselling it).

BTW, 65% resisual was actually common place for BMW before the credit crisis. It was inflated, but probably not as much as you think. It would usually be low mileage (I saw some lease deals with 8K miles/year :sick: ). I think it worked for them at the time, even though they might have been losing some money on back end. At that time they were sales driven and they probably dealt with inflated residuals by jacking prices of used cars. I was looking at some 2-3 year old ones then and it wasn't even funny.

After the credit crisis they adjusted their residuals to more realistic values. They dumped money factors on most popular models to keep leasing viable. They also pushed more people to loan financing than they used to.

driver100

I can't think of any time in my driving career where I've needed a lot of power to get out of a situation.

You live in a very laid back area then. I find there are many times in the week when it is nice to have a few extra horses, like trying to complete a left turn when people going the opposite way keep coming at you through their yellow light. Or, for just trying to get onto a highway from an on ramp.

Driving is more pleasant if you don't get into the speed and time game. Since being semi-retired I don't have to be somewhere by a certain time too often, and life is not as rushed. But, if you have so many calls to make, or are on a schedule, or if time is money, then you might want the extra hp.

Of course, if you don't care what color your car is, how many doors it has, how many cylinders it has....like some people, then you aren't going to care how much hp you have, as long as it goes from point A to point B. (ha ha).

isellhondas

I am no longer an agressive driver like I once was.

I've had several "muscle cars" including a GTO, a 409 Impala and several Rivieras.

I had a lot of fun with those cars and I got more than my share of tickets.

Still, I can't remember using speed and power to get me out of a situation.

those were on the streets and freeways of Los Angeles. HArdly a laid back area!

fezo

Back from a two live football game weekend - both at the New Meadowlands Stadium in NJ - home of Super Bowl 2014 which is no doubt a huge mistake on the NFL's part... actually, if they play it in a blizzard I for one will love it!

Anyway, you may well have seen the news from game 1. Eric Legrand, one of my Rutgers Scarlet Knights, tried to stop a guy on a kick return with his head down. There's good reason they teach you not to do that and now he's dealing with a spinal cord injury and too early to tell how much movement he'll have. Takes the wind right out of you. One of my nine year olds asks if you can get hurt bad why do they play. how do you answer that?

I was at Sunday's Giants game in a seat that is my annual see how the other half lives (I have a friend who has the seats and is generous with sharing them - heck he gave me both tickets because he had to be out of the country).

I need a break from the weekend!

nyccarguy

I meant to say negotiate the buy back. BMWFS would not negotiate, however my dealer was going to buy it from BMWFS at auction price and sell it back to me cheaper than BMWFS was going to charge me.

isellhondas

OK, that makes sense.

Unless it actually went through the auction, BMWFS really didn't know what kind of money it would bring but they had a pretty good idea. so, they sold it to the dealer instead of taking their chances, paying auction fees, transportation etc.

They probably sold it to the dealer for several thousand less then the residual.

The dealer then probably ran it through detail and their Service Dept. Then they marked it a couple of grand (at least) and still were able to sell it to you for less than the residual.

Some car companies never seem to learn. Mortgage tomorrow for a sale today.

nyccarguy

They actually didn't sell me the car because I wasn't interested in making payments on a 3 year old used BMW. If I had cash, I'd have bought it.

snakeweasel

like trying to complete a left turn when people going the opposite way keep coming at you through their yellow light.

If you need a lot more HP to make that left turn maybe that left turn isn't a safe one.

Or, for just trying to get onto a highway from an on ramp.

Ok the Saturn has about 150 HP and the Sebring has about 200, they both have no trouble getting to highway speeds long before the end of the ramp.

But, if you have so many calls to make, or are on a schedule, or if time is money, then you might want the extra hp.

Seriously all that HP does is get you to your cursing speed a little faster. 90% of the time it just means that you get to the next stop light 5 seconds sooner.Not to mention that if you are in a metro area the vast majority of the time you have someone in front of you at a traffic light.

Oh well, I don't have as much HP so I guess I will have to compensate for it by driving to work at 40.05 MPH rather than 40.

Of course, if you don't care what color your car is, how many doors it has, how many cylinders it has....like some people, then you aren't going to care how much hp you have

Believe it or not there are car enthusiasts that don't think that a car is measured by have many G forces you feel on flat out accelerations. There are those of us who have other priorities in what their cars offer, that does not make us any less an enthusiast.

I have had high HP cars and rarely used all the HP that they had to offer. FWIW the last one I had I, IIRC, used full throttle 3 times. Twice to see what it was capable of doing (once from a standstill and once from highway speeds) and once to shut up a friend of mine. First time he was in it we got onto I-180 and I took it nice and easy on the on ramp and he gave me a hard time about having a hamster on a wheel powering my car. So I stopped the car, then floored it and told him not to trash talk the Caddy.

I am with Isell on this one, all that HP is really not needed.

oldfarmer50

"...all that HP is not really needed..."

Yeah, but I bet it felt good to shut your friend up, didn't it?

BTW, now that I know how you abuse your cars, my offer to buy all your used ones is withdrawn. :P

mako1a

get you to your cursing speed a little faster

Snake, that was a good one...intended or not.

I usually drive at cruising speed, but once I got to cursing speed.

driver100

get you to your cursing speed a little faster

I think cursing speed is the speed all the cars passing you are going at.

driver100

I am with Isell on this one, all that HP is really not needed.

I was just talking to a guy today who said he had a Pontiac Firefly at one time. He said it was totally anemic, no power at all. The other problem was it needed a lot of repairs. He dumped it as soon as he could.

I don't need hp for speed or because I need the feeling of fast starts. I just like and appreciate a fine running engine, that responds nicely. Just like "the feel of the road" I like the "feel of the power surge".

snakeweasel

I did nothing wrong, there is a glitch in Edmunds computers that causes what appears to be typos.

Remember unlike everyone else I never have typos, poor spelling or bad grammar. It is all bugs in Edminds servers that change my posts.

Hosts, can you do something about that bug?

snakeweasel

You don't need HP to have a fine running engine.

cdn_tch

Just how much get up and go is enough? Went to R&T website and in one comparison they compared a Fit, Versa and a Yaris. All of them got to 60 at 9.1 sec or less with HP in the 100-120 range. Race cars they're not, but neither would I call that kind of performance anemic.

verdugo

When I think of used I think of some of the used cars I have had, 65 and 67 Galaxie, 72 Comet, and my first new car was a 73 Maverick

You're such a Yogi Berra. :P

murphydog

usually I would agree - but there are indeed times that "if some is good more is better"

Getting on 520 Westbound from Redmond (home of Microsoft) is a long uphill ramp that is usually clogged with 1 or two buses and an assortment of people going about 25 MPH. The on ramp has a nice tight curve, and in the middle of said curve 2 general purpose lanes become one.

The folks all ready on 520 are usually going ~ 60 MPH + and like all good Washington drivers are not paying attention to anything, especially somebody trying to merge without looking at a tawdry 25-30.

My solution is to wait for a gap, make a lane change and put the hammer down. This way I am able to safely merge and more importantly get far far ahead of the fools who think that merging at 25 MPH under the traffic flow is a safe and sane thing to do.

That said most of the other examples are pretty spot on, if you have to lay down rubber to make a left, it was likely not a good time to make said left. :shades:

Almost forgot, was in LA going through a construction zone. Traffic was light and flowing well. I am nearing an on ramp and this little old lady is leading a line of traffic including a couple of big rigs. She was just about to stop where the ramp merged in and the truck behind her gave a long loud blast on the horn. I actually saw her jump in her seat as she hit the gas and went for it.

I nearly spit my coffee out I was laughing so hard.

jwilliams2

Just how much get up and go is enough? Went to R&T website and in one comparison they compared a Fit, Versa and a Yaris. All of them got to 60 at 9.1 sec or less with HP in the 100-120 range. Race cars they're not, but neither would I call that kind of performance anemic.

Some other magazines show 9.7 to 11.9 times for these cars, and that's with only the driver on board. I would say that with 3 or 4 in the car, their performance could certainly be considered anemic.

Some on these forums are" performance" car enthusiasts, and some are "car is an appliance" believers. Some really enjoy driving a great performing car, and some would rate that right up there with using a toaster. Some drive BMW's and Porsches, and some drive Saturn's, Hyundai's, or Plymouths. Some want to enjoy the best that life has to offer, and some want to die with a big bank account.

There is no right or wrong, only different strokes for different folks.

cdn_tch

You're right in that there is no right or wrong, but 'adequate performance' is on a bell curve and the acceptable range is pretty broad these days.

As for putting 3 or 4 people into any of the cars listed, well that would be cruel and unusual punishment for the backseat passengers... :P

tidester

Hosts, can you do something about that bug?

Weel haf too reordor sum insectiside cuzz its effecting mai tai ping two! Chell specker duzn't seam too hep. :P :P

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

nyccarguy

I have a friend whose daily driver is a 2010 BMW X5 M. With 555 twin turbocharged horsepower, this thing actually puts the 'sport' in sport utity vehicle. He actually drives the X5 as it was meant to be driven. It might not be smart or safe, but it is better than the Porsche Cayenne Turbo S I saw last week driving 60 in the right lane.

One night he's headed out of the city with a buddy of his and they decide they want to go to a gentleman's club. He uses BMW Assist to find out where the closest one is. The conversation went a little like this:

Good evening, BMW Assist. Who am I speaking with?

This is Mike.

Hello Mike, I see you are headed northbound on the Saw Mill River Parkway at 122 miles per hour in a 2010 BMW X5 M.

Yeah, that's me. I'm looking for ---------, it's a strip club. Now as he says this, his buddy next to him says "Mike - Gentleman's Cabaret.".

Uh I mean gentleman's cabaret.

Yes, gentleman's cabaret, of course sir.

driver100

You don't need HP to have a fine running engine.

No, only if you want to have a life.

Like I say, I don't speed, I am not an aggressive driver 98% of the time, but I hate gutless cars, and I have had too many of them in my life, to have one now.

driver100

All of them got to 60 at 9.1 sec or less with HP in the 100-120 range

And how many times will you do that before the engine explodes. If I go 0 to 60 in 8 seconds I am just cruising, the engine is hardly working,....it is just getting a bit of a workout.

driver100

You're such a Yogi Berra.

I love those Yogiisms....and it is an honor to be in that category.

I guess my statement was pretty brilliant now that you hilited it:

When I think of used I think of some of the used cars I have had, 65 and 67 Galaxie, 72 Comet, and my first new car was a 73 Maverick

driver100

examples are pretty spot on, if you have to lay down rubber to make a left, it was likely not a good time to make said left.

I love your example of how valuable hp can be...it was explained very nicely.

Just to explain the left turn example. You are waiting to turn left, the light changes to yellow (or amber if you prefer), and cars keep coming at you through the yellow light. When you have a chance to turn left your light is red, cross traffic is turning green, and you want to clear the intersection before someone hits you.

I don't mean try to turn left before getting clobbered by oncoming traffic.

driver100

. Some want to enjoy the best that life has to offer, and some want to die with a big bank account.

That is a great observation. I was just reading about that the other day. Some people like to save every penny they can, and no amount saved can be too much.

Other people use their money to buy the things they really want. I would rather have the fun of having a finely engineered car with some performance, than have those dollars sitting in a bank. It is just that driving is one of the things I do enjoy, and I want it to be as pleasurable as possible.

If I was in economy mode (which I have been for most of my life), then I would probably think a lot differently, and my choice of car would be completely different.

driver100

NY Uh I mean gentleman's cabaret.

BMW ASSIST Yes, gentleman's cabaret, of course sir

BMW It is getting late and you guys should not be driving that fast if you want your warranty to be covered. Also, it isn't nice for you to be going to a hu humm, gentleman's club. It is time for you to head home and go to sleep so you will be wide awake and ready for work tomorrow.

That is the kind of BMW ASSIST they should have.

dino001

Some people like to save every penny they can, and no amount saved can be too much
Other people use their money to buy the things they really want.

There is no wrong choice there - as long as it is really their money. What I see around much more often is people buying things they really want without actually having the money (to be precise - without having the money for the item and other essential needs simoultaneously) and then when "unanticipated" happens (like you know, losing job in construction industry, having a family member falling into illness, home AC unit going bad - you know that stuff that happens only to other people and never to us) later saying that the bank/Bush/Obama/Wall Street/Chinese currency manipulation/globalization and what not screwed them. If they just got another loan, everything would be allright.

graphicguy

Craig...I think it was you and I who commented on a post years ago (how do I remember stuff like posts at Edmunds?) regarding the styling of Riviera's.

Personally, I think most vintages of Rivs were some of the best designs that General Motors ever produced. That included the last generation (mid-late 90s?).

tjc78

BMW It is getting late and you guys should not be driving that fast if you want your warranty to be covered. Also, it isn't nice for you to be going to a hu humm, gentleman's club. It is time for you to head home and go to sleep so you will be wide awake and ready for work tomorrow.

That is the kind of BMW ASSIST they should have.

Frankly... if you are paying for BMW Assist they shouldn't give a rat's [non-permissible content removed] what you are doing or asking for. Just my .02.

That car is designed for those types of speed (think Autobahn in Germany) obviously illegal in NY, but no reason to deny a warranty claim. If that vehicle was in Germany it may see 140-150 at times.

tjc78

Personally, I think most vintages of Rivs were some of the best designs that General Motors ever produced

My Grandfather had a few Rivieras, the one I remember most as a kid was the "boat-tail" one. What a nice car, would love to have one to cruise around in now.

dougb10

In 1981, my Dad bought a new Riviera. It was a stripper...just Power steering and brakes...A/C and tilt steering...with GM's famous wire wheel covers and velour interior. At least it was navy blue and looked pretty sharp. He loved that car..couldn't care less that it handled like a piece of crap. Floated smoothly down the highway, thank you very much.
But that was then...annual winter trips to Florida from Toronto was the way to enjoy retirement and it suited my Mom and Dad just fine..both made it to 90 before bidding adios. I should be so lucky!

Doug

isellhondas

I've had three Rivieras. Two 1965's and a 1969. I happen to think the 65 Riviera were the best GM design ever. They were powerful and fast and handled well for what they were. Not too big. Just right.

jwilliams2

Riviera's were nice looking cars, and my favorite was the
71-73 model with its unique styling. Really an eye catching design.

jmonroe

I started to make my left turn and then saw a car coming pretty quickly (faster than he should have), so I used my extra horses to get across the road and speed up so he didn't even have to brake. I would hate to have an underpowered car in that situation.

It’s very interesting that you mention a guy that was going faster than he should have. Just yesterday morning as I’m getting on the PA Turnpike, at about 6:40 AM, I came across a guy that was damn near flying.

I can assure you that when I blend onto a highway I’m up to speed in no time and when I get onto the Pike at this on ramp everyday, I’m usually past the 65MPH speed limit (now 55 during some construction that is over but the lower speed limit signs are still in place. I can’t understand that but it’s been that way for at least a month now. :mad: ). Anyway, I always look well ahead and to the back of me before getting up to speed so that I can get out there with no problem. When I looked back this time there was not a single car coming up from behind me in either the right or left lane. Once I’m out in the right lane, here comes speedo in the left lane. He had to be doing at least 90 MPH to have come from out of nowhere like that. Like I said I was in the right lane doing about 65 and he passed me like I was standing still.

This car (I thing it was an older Camaro) was out of sight within just a few seconds. I’m thinking he’s going to get pulled over in about a 1/4 mile up ahead around this sweeping bend because I know where the troopers lurk at this time of the morning (I’ve been driving this stretch for a little more that 3 years now). Well, this was one of the few mornings that no trooper was there. I know if I would have been testing out the Genny he would have been there, for sure.

jmonroe

jmonroe

A week or two after it canceled, Sirius called and offered it to us for a year at $77 if we paid in advance.

I didn't have to cancel to get that rate. I just called and said that I wanted it...or else. They said, "OK, but just this one time. After that it's full boat". Well, we'll see about that in March 2011

Did you have to pay the “U. S. Music Royalty Fee of $11.78” with Sirius? I did with XM, see post 52878. I hope I wasn’t snookered. :mad: But like I’ve said before I like XM (I spend around an hour total time commuting, plus it was great when I went on vacation) and would have paid MSRP if I had to. I hope they don’t have any lurkers assigned to this place.

jmonroe

jayrider

I'd pay $100 for a 10 minute ride in a restored 65 Riviera.
On another note to one and all. No matter what the engine under the hood -- first one into the intersection from the left lane when the light turns green has the best chance of a meeting with the red light runner coming from the left. T-bones are best with an order of fries and a salad in a restaurant not on the road.

isellhondas

The boattails were liked by some and hated by others.

They ruined the looks of the Riviera in 1970. The 71-72 boattails had the detuned engines and weren't nearly as spunky as the older models. In 1973, they were forced to add those ugly 5MPH bumpers and they went downhill from there.

jmonroe

One of the regulars, Jip, Snake or jmonroe claimed that he changed the oil in his car every 1500 miles.

It wasn’t me. Even I never changed oil that often. For me it’s no longer than around 7K miles today. It used to be 3K back in the 70’s. I even had a fellow worker show up on his way to play golf early one Saturday morning with an empty Prestone bottle wanting my drain oil. I told that tale somewhere on one of these boards awhile back.

If I were going for just the looks I'd buy one from jmonroe because it would take YEARS for the elements to get through the six inches of wax.

Eat your heart out.

jmonroe

murphydog

We had a regular valet customer at Longacres who had a late 60's (I think) Riviera - it had a little plaque on the center console stating that the care had been made for them.

It was a metallic green and I gotta say one of my favorite cars to jump in. Great style and looks, and the owners took really good care of it.

I miss being 19 and being a valet...had to be the best $$ to job satisfaction job I have every had... :shades:

houdini1

We owned a 71 Rivera, bought it used in 1972 and it was a great car, especially good at cruising on the interstate. That thing had about an acre of beautiful tan leather seats and they were very comfortable. My wife still talks about those seats.

I always felt like I was rich (wasn't) when driving it. I was very proud of that car.

isellhondas

I liked the boattails too until thet hung those big bumpers on them.

GM really had the market back then. Ford and Chrysler didn't come close in style of quality.

Then came the smog regulations and the cars got, literally choked to death.

tjc78

Then came the smog regulations and the cars got, literally choked to death.

You are not kidding. It amazes me that those huge 455s and 460 V8s only got around 200HP back then. We get that out of 4cyls now (with a hell of a lot better economy).

isellhondas

Yep, those were tough years.

Cars were smogged to death and downsized. Primative fuel injection units were put on cars along with catalytic convertors. The goverment demanded better fuel economy and tight emissions.

GM started putting terrible aluminum engines and diesels in Cadillacs.

Cadillac's reputation was ruined because of the HT4100 engines that they couldn't get right until 1988. The damage was done.

Ford and Chrysler suffered too but it just seems to me anyway that GM suffered the most and maybe made the most mistakes.

They introduced the Vega in 1971. According to rumor, they didn't expect those lousy aluminum 4 bangers to last beyond 50,000 miles and they usually didn't.

Ford came along the same year with the Pinto which was a much better car.

Then they had their X Cars like Chevy Citation. Again, the offerings from Ford and Chrysler were much better. GM would never be what they once were.

snakeweasel

but there are indeed times that "if some is good more is better"

Granted but the law of diminishing returns is always in play. In short every increase of 1 HP has less benefit than the previous increase of 1. You will soon reach a point where increasing the HP has little, if any effect.

The folks all ready on 520 are usually going....

I get into that situation a lot here in and around Chicago. I do handle it well with 150 HP, 200 HP or 400 HP.