Just remember some people have a line they will not cross for any reason. I know people that will walk on a penny if that penny puts them over that line. You may say it was only an extra $5 but you can "just an extra $5" yourself into the poor house.
Its may not be that he didn't have respect for your time, it could just be a matter of you being unable to get to or under that line in the sand.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
snake....no disagreement from me. I just thought (maybe wrongly) anyone looking to buy a $50K vehicle wouldn't be a payment buyer.
I totally understand if the same shopper said they were only willing to pay $50K and not a penny more.
I know quite a few people who will say "it's only an extra $xx/month" for everything they have. They're a missed paycheck away from losing everything. They're people who pull down a nice yearly income, to boot.
If I'm looking at a $50K vehicle, then I'm definitely a payment buyer.... because it has to be the lease deal of the century for me to afford it..
If I'm shopping $30K vehicles, then not so much...
But, I agree... cash or finance buyers of $50K vehicles probably don't obsess about the payment so much.. When you lease, the payment is everything, once you've picked the car you want.
snake....no disagreement from me. I just thought (maybe wrongly) anyone looking to buy a $50K vehicle wouldn't be a payment buyer.
Why not? yes it will be bigger payments buy there are some who but more expensive vehicles but you can buy them on a loan can't you? Or at the very less lease which is pretty much the same thing.
I totally understand if the same shopper said they were only willing to pay $50K and not a penny more.
Well then its pretty much the same as saying I will put $5k down and pay no more than 985 a month for 60 months and not a penny more.
I know quite a few people who will say "it's only an extra $xx/month" for everything they have. They're a missed paycheck away from losing everything.
yeah I know, make that $xx $10 a month, now apply that to two car payments, a house payment, payments on that big screen TV, payments on that rec room you created in the basement, on that John Deere you use to mow the lawn, on that bed room set you have and on and on. $that extra $10 a month adds up quickly.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If I'm looking at a $50K vehicle, then I'm definitely a payment buyer.... because it has to be the lease deal of the century for me to afford it..
the people I know that can buy $50k+ cars with cash usually take out a loan. They typically come out ahead investing that $50K+ and making the monthly payments out of that investment.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Rover, it may discourage you to know that we are a 40 car store with 4 sales guides and we all make between 80-120 / year. The advantage is we all do our own back end and and get paid on both front and back
Yeah I remember you mentioning that. Getting paid on the back end as well really makes a differance. I am sure your pay plan is better then our as well.
You mean 40 cars a month???
3% pack on the invoice of a Range Rover basicly wipes out all of the payable gross on a deal...
We are working to try and get our pay plan fixed. Everyone here knows it is a problem but we have been met with a lot of resistance from above to have it fixed. Hmhh I wonder why... :confuse: :mad:
>I had a guy walk out over $5/month on a lease. The car was $51k but the lease was 21months and the payment was negotiated down to 499. he walked out and then we said okay because we needed a deal that day. In total he walked over a total of $105 over the term of the lease. We did the credit app...he makes $850,000 as a partner of a financial services company. It's not that they can't afford it...people like that just don't have any respect for your time.
Obviously the dealership didn't respect his time. It was only a Total of $105 over the term of the lease. They should have just agreed to it. It's only a small amount.
I'm finally in the market for a new -to me at least- car. I'm paying cash, no trade. While in Cincinnati today we decided to check out the CPO inventory at Jake Sweeney BMW as well as The BMW Store. I had checked both of their web sites and each of them had at least one car I was very, VERY interested in. We first stopped at Sweeney's, where we walked around the CPO lot and found the two 540i Sports that I liked. We walked across the lot and through the CPO showroom and received no offers of assistance- not counting the lot jockey who asked me if I wanted the keys to a car I WASN'T looking at. I guess jeans, a BMW CCA golf shirt, and a BMW F1 jacket don't meet Jake's dress code. After about fifteen minutes of this I decided enough was enough; as we were leaving we walked by a sales guy who had been ignoring us while he chatted on his cell phone. As we passed him he heard me tell Ann that we were moving on to the BMW Store. So NOW he asks, "You mean you folks haven't been helped?" "Just forget it." I replied. His response? "Have a nice day. We're busy too, you know." Nice try, but I'd just walked through the CPO showroom and there was maybe one customer in the whole place. What a joke. Off we went to the BMW Store, arriving just in time to see the one car I really wanted to drive -a 2003 CPO 530i manual Sport- being delivered to its new owners. At least the sales staff gave us first class treatment- too bad they had nothing else I wanted. Well, there WAS that Imola M5... Stay tuned for my next adventure, where I'll attempt to test drive a Charger SRT8 :shades:
Did you end up passing on the X5 with the manual transmission?
The Sweeney story reminds me of the last time I browsed the lot at the Lexus Store of Lexington, although there, I was unsuccessful in making contact with a human at all.
didn't respect his time? take a guess at the profit on this deal? then take a guess on the commission. I think there's a generally accepted norm in the car business for customers. The people who pay more money for their cars are happier. Those who grind and grind and shop 4 different types of cars at 4 dealers for each one and take months to make a decision tend to be most unhappy and unsatisfied. He was one of many of those guys. When we spend 2 hours with a customer answering questions, taking them out for drives, selecting the car and the guy goes out to the parking lot and calls the dealer 10 miles away just to get $5 or $10 month better...who has a lack of respect? Every customer deserves a good deal but how much are we worth?
Did you end up passing on the X5 with the manual transmission?
Yeah, I decided to wait for something I REALLY wanted, and as it turns out, I now have a somewhat larger vehicle acquisition budget as well. It was a nice truck, though.
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To see what state a number was issued in: (hope this link comes out right)
Maybe kyfdx can chime in here as he's dealt with the BMW Store. I looked there, too. Good people. Good dealership.
I ended up buying from Jake, though. I got a better price from them. They've always bent over backwards for me....for both sales and service. That said, I dealt with the new car people, not the CPO lot next door. I know they've got a boatload of used BMWs over at Jake's place.
The $5 difference should have worked both ways--the dealer could easily give the $5 but you were saying only the customer should have given the $5. You seem to have missed my point. Your original post was one-sided on that point.
Every customer deserves a good deal but how much are we worth?
You, like everyone else, is worth what the market dictates.
As for complaining about the $5, it works both ways. If $5 isn't such a big deal for the customer how come its such a big deal for you?
As I said before sometimes the deal can't go through. The customers maximum price is below the dealerships absolute minimum. If thats the case the deal cannot be done. No use complaining about it, move on to the next customer. Just don't complain about the customer not coming up $5 when you wouldn't go down $5.
Plus I will add that I am one of those people that will spend a month or more researching a car (I'm spending 10's of thousands of dollars remember), I will cross shop several different models and when I determine what I want I will shop at least two different dealerships. I have never been unhappy with a car purchased.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Understood and the point is well taken. However, if you spend all your research and selection time with one salesman and you are happy with his or her treatment, knowledge, and the overall experience, how much is that worth to you. My point is from the sales side, we invest a lot of time and care with our customers and that situation is an example of somebody blatently saying through action that our efforts are not worth that little bit extra. He's willing to take our time, knowledge, and investment and buy from someone else over a meaningless dollar amount. It's even worse because it was such a small amount!! Mind you we had already saved the guy over $180/month in payment. I feel this is a pretty healthy topic...thoughts anyone?
Hello: Are there any Cadillac sales persons reading this forum? I am in the market for a 2006-2007 Cts and all my local dealer has on his lot are loaded up models.
I want a plain-jane model with Automatic and thats it. Are these available and can I get one for around 30K?
A lot of people simply do not care. They will spend hours of a salesperson's time on a busy Saturday. They will ask endless questions, drive four different cars and then they will do their very best to get a number out of the salesperson to go shop.
If they can drive fifty miles to save a hundred dollars they will do that without the slightest feeling that they did anything wrong.
After all, it's money and nothing else is important to this type of customer.
They simply don't care and nothing you or I write in these forums will ever change that.
Sadly, a lot of excellent salespeople end up leaving the business over repeated customers like this.
However, if you spend all your research and selection time with one salesman
Personally I leave the salesman out of the equation until I am getting ready to buy. By then All I need is a test drive and if I decide to buy to take the order.
how much is that worth to you.
Ever since my Subaru experience that is worth zip to me.
My point is from the sales side,
Ok but the sales side is not spending their hard earned money. You get a better understanding of the process that way.
over a meaningless dollar amount.
Just one comment, there is never a meaningless dollar amount. Please revert back to my first post on this matter.
Mind you we had already saved the guy over $180/month in payment.
I have to wonder did you save him $180/month or did you just come down $180/month from a high price point?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
To me the key words are if "you are happy with his or her treatment, knowledge, and the overall experience," and you are happy with the agreed-on price, then I think it is fair to close the deal with this salesperson.
I don't think it's a good idea to spend hours with the first salesperson (researching, test driving, and finally negotiating), just to walk out with the number looking to save $50 or $100 down the road.
OTOH, if I get treated badly as in being talked down to or flim-flammed with extra fees like excessive "doc fees" and such, I'll have no such concern with walking out and trying elsewhere.
Of course, because I live in a smaller town with only one of each make represented by a dealer (and some makes like Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura not available at all locally), I'd have to consider also whether driving 30 or so miles to the next dealership is worth it.
The more I read these forums however, the more I'm convinced it's best to do as much research online or by reading magazines before you set foot in the dealership. And I also think it's best to come up with a target price (Edmunds' TMV for example) and stick to it, a la Bobst, again BEFORE meeting with the salesperson.
I'd also NEVER trade in a car; for me personally, I haven't done so since 1978. Also, NEVER buy anything from F&I (the only exception would be a factory extended warranty for an unreliable car like a Mercedes.) :P Last, always have financing lined up ahead of time.
This way, you only have to focus on the price of the new car.
How else are we suppose to compare prices? I am sure most of you will shop several different stores before you buy a $3000 TV, why shouldn’t we do the same with a $30,000 car. Unfortunately for you, and for us, we have to grind for two hours to determine what the market value of a car is. The reason we have to grind is because dealers have developed this system to make more money than they would if they had a non-negotiable price system.
Also, you could be a goodcarguy, but many salespeople are not so good. They will stop at nothing to squeeze the last buck out of us without loosing any sleep over it, so why shouldn’t we do the same?
Also, NEVER buy anything from F&I (the only exception would be a factory extended warranty for an unreliable car like a Mercedes.)
This just a little off the subject here but why would anyone buy a car that is known to have quality issues to the extent they will need the additional protection of an extended warranty.
I guess the prestige of being seen driving that car is all that's important to some people.
BTW, 'delray', not to make you feel bad but my first new car was a 66' Bonneville. Held six adults comfortably. I always had to drive because everybody could easily fit into this boat.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
This just a little off the subject here but why would anyone buy a car that is known to have quality issues to the extent they will need the additional protection of an extended warranty.
So they can use the term "My Mercedes" which sounds a lot better that "My Chevy" to social climbers.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
There's nothing wrong at all with shopping around and comparing prices. Candidly I prefer interacting with a well informed customer because most of the time it's a much more pleasant experience for all parties involved. As far as "grinding" goes...if everybody MSRP there would be no negotiations!--haha--just kidding guys.
You'd really prefer a "non-negotiable"system? What if the profit on a chevy was fixed at $7,000 or mercedes at $15,000? How would buyers feel then? Would buyers still feel like they got a "fair" deal? It's not the old days of the car business anymore...everybody knows everything about the cars from cost to head room. All that stuff is hard information but a sale is still just an agreement.--an agreement to sell and an agreement to buy. I could ask 100 people what's a fair deal and I'd get 100 different answers.
Oh, it doesn't make me feel bad at all that your first new car was a '66 Bonneville. That was my dream car when I was in the 8th grade! I still have a 1/25 scale model of a '66 Bonneville coupe that I put together back then, since it was the only one I could afford at the time.
as to why "anyone' would by a car so unreliable as to need an extended warranty. I will speak for myself and say, Why would I want my car to be like a washing machine? I could care less if my washing machine had soul, I just want it to work. On the other hand, I love driving, and cars in general. So, I can live with some trips to the mechanic if it means I don't have to drive a Toyota, or Chevy. With all due respect to all those respective owners, or salespeople, they drive like pigs. [with the exception of the vette]
So, I'd rather drive an "unreliable Audi", and my wife have to wipe the smile off may face with a 2x4, than drive an aforementioned car, and hate life while I pass the mechanic shop.
For some of us crazy enthusiasts, reliability is a very small part of the puzzle
"Subbie?" I'm interested to know exactly what that is.
As far as your sentiments on product knowledge goes...I couldn't agree more. I could learn the Indianapolis Colts playbook but that doesn't mean that I can play for the team! You definitely must have a natural ability--everything else is secondary.
So, I'd rather drive an "unreliable Audi", and my wife have to wipe the smile off may face with a 2x4, than drive an aforementioned car, and hate life while I pass the mechanic shop.
Thanks for the explanation. I should have known there had to be a reason that made absolutely no sense what so ever for these types of beasts.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Also keep in mind that the people who drive high end vehicles tend to be a bit more picky then the average driver. All of these "relability" studies report complaints and not necessarily actual problems with the car.
Like on the JD Power study if someone complains about the feel of the knobs on the radio, or the way they have to reach to get to the cupholders then that carries the same weight as a VOR(Vehicle Off-Road) Problem.
The BMW Store.. They do bend over backwards for you... Also, their service department is top-notch... They give loaners, or valet service.. even if you didn't buy your car there. But.. getting a great deal is not very easy... they are really into the relationship thing, which frankly, isn't worth much to me. We leased our last car from there.. BMWFS had a great lease program on it, and it was the last '05 convertible on the lot in November.. The stars must have been aligned. Their CPO prices are pretty high, and they act like negotiating on price is just distasteful.
Jake Sweeney.. I didn't even know they had a CPO showroom until I drove by there today..Has to be fairly new. Their main facility was always pretty small, so I never got far inside without someone asking if I needed help. But, you can walk their lot for hours without anyone chatting you up. They always seemed fairly upfront about pricing on new cars. CPO? Again, asking prices are crazy high... and, they'll get a weird color or something out of the ordinary, and they'll sit on it for months and months.. They had a CPO E46 convertible in a strange custom green with matching green soft-top for at least a year. I would have cut that from the herd quick with a $5K discount, if I had been in charge. It depreciated more than that while they had it.
EDIT: The BMW Store does nice events.. I attended an X5 thing last week.. very nice catering..
Well, when this "single male" starts shopping for the wife's new TL or Maxima next summer I will most certainly do the initial leg work by myself before asking her to come along. I will have culled all of the "hard sell" dealerships, the salesmen who can't get out of "Sales Seminar 101" mode, and the SM's whose best offer is $400 off sticker when the going rate is $400 under invoice. No need to drag the wife along for the dog and pony show and no need to pawn my son off on a family member/babysitter for an exercise in frustration. When I have found the dealer/salesman/price that I like, she will at that point come out and test drive the two, make her choice, and point to the desired color. Done deal.
Regardless, this "single male" will be in a Ford F150 if shopping locally or a stunning example of a 93 Ford Taurus wagon, teal over tan cloth, if I happen to be working in Atlanta at the time. (I'm sure the Acura guys will summersault right out the showroom door when I drive up in that piece. :P :surprise: )
All kidding aside though, it seems that you are burned out -- either at this particular store or with the profession as a whole. Hope it gets better for you; been there, done that and it isn't fun!
This just a little off the subject here but why would anyone buy a car that is known to have quality issues to the extent they will need the additional protection of an extended warranty.
The key difference today is that today's vehicles are worlds different than those even of 5 yrs ago. ???
Last Gen models of most makes were still mechanical vehicles with some some electronic control components. New Generations are increasingly rolling computers. It's an exageration but previous models mostly could be fixed with a wrench and sweat. These new models now require specialized electronic devices to analyze what a problem might be then OEM computers to download data and upload new programming.
Solving potential problems is actually easier in a lot of cases due to the fact that it only requires a software flash to be downloaded to the respective ECM ( of which there can be as many as 20 in the newer models ). The elctronic systems are probably more reliable and lighter and involve fewer parts since there are no mechanical linkages just electronic wiring.
But...what if the ECM's go bad or get damaged in normal usage ( see below ) or the wiring is faulty. The system is disabled and the only fix is to replace the ECM. In most vehicles the electronics are covered by the shortest warranty - the Basic Warranty or the Bumper-to-Bumper - which is normally 3/36.
When an ECM or other controller goes out the bill is often $400-$2000 depending on the system involved.
Now take a truck for example that does hard work and/or is used off road for fun. Take your PDA or laptop and close it then throw it against the wall. Now drop it in a bucket of water. Now do this every day. Think your 15-20 ECM's might take a little wear and tear - at $1000 a pop?
Now you were asking about an Extended Service Agreement?
Side note: Do most people realized that new vehicles now generally have 'black boxes', similar to airplanes, that record driving parameters on a realtime basis? They might record for example that when a vehicle lost control on a curve that it was doing 83.75 mph at 4AM and the yaw sensors noted that the vehicle was in an oversteer condition and the brakes were not applied.
Now you were asking about an Extended Service Agreement?
My original question was:
"why would anyone buy a car that is known to have quality issues to the extent they will need the additional protection of an extended warranty".
I realize that all cars will have a problem at some point but some are known to have more and sometimes many more than others. These are the ones I was talking about.
Honda, Toyota, Infinity and now even Hyundai have shown that they have less problems than most other cars and their sales prove it.
When you have to buy an extended warranty to get you to the end of your car payments, you have purchased the wrong car.
I personally feel that all car manufactures (even the ones I mentioned above) have gotten way too cute with all the widgits that now appear on cars. Cars just don't need all this stuff. Please note, I'm not talking about safety features.
I've always questioned the need to buy these extended warranties for anything (TV's, refrigerators, washers/dryers etc.) not just cars. The way I look at it is if the manufacture doesn't have confidence in their product why should I?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
You'd really prefer a "non-negotiable"system? What if the profit on a chevy was fixed at $7,000 or mercedes at $15,000? How would buyers feel then?
They'd likely buy something else or stay with their current vehicle. Manufacturers and dealer would quickly find that they can't sell enough cars to stay in business and someone would come up with a brilliant idea of lowering unit profit to $6000. If that was not enough, somebody else would lower it to $5000 and so on until a balance between demand and supply is reached. It is called marketplace.
You can achieve the same total profit by applying the same mid-to-low amount to each transaction, or you can achieve it by a casino-type system, in which some transactions are at loss (or low profit) and others are jackpots. Most retailers seem to opt for the former system, whereas car dealers seem to believe the latter serves them better. For now, anyway. So far it seems to be true and it's OK for me - just don't tell me it's for good of the consumer, because it is not.
Comments
Its may not be that he didn't have respect for your time, it could just be a matter of you being unable to get to or under that line in the sand.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I totally understand if the same shopper said they were only willing to pay $50K and not a penny more.
I know quite a few people who will say "it's only an extra $xx/month" for everything they have. They're a missed paycheck away from losing everything. They're people who pull down a nice yearly income, to boot.
If I'm shopping $30K vehicles, then not so much...
But, I agree... cash or finance buyers of $50K vehicles probably don't obsess about the payment so much.. When you lease, the payment is everything, once you've picked the car you want.
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Why not? yes it will be bigger payments buy there are some who but more expensive vehicles but you can buy them on a loan can't you? Or at the very less lease which is pretty much the same thing.
I totally understand if the same shopper said they were only willing to pay $50K and not a penny more.
Well then its pretty much the same as saying I will put $5k down and pay no more than 985 a month for 60 months and not a penny more.
I know quite a few people who will say "it's only an extra $xx/month" for everything they have. They're a missed paycheck away from losing everything.
yeah I know, make that $xx $10 a month, now apply that to two car payments, a house payment, payments on that big screen TV, payments on that rec room you created in the basement, on that John Deere you use to mow the lawn, on that bed room set you have and on and on. $that extra $10 a month adds up quickly.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
the people I know that can buy $50k+ cars with cash usually take out a loan. They typically come out ahead investing that $50K+ and making the monthly payments out of that investment.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Hmhh Could have happend when I was in SC though. That was a few years before I lived in VA.
You mean 40 cars a month???
3% pack on the invoice of a Range Rover basicly wipes out all of the payable gross on a deal...
We are working to try and get our pay plan fixed. Everyone here knows it is a problem but we have been met with a lot of resistance from above to have it fixed. Hmhh I wonder why... :confuse: :mad:
40 cars a month???
We have done that in a day and a half.
I would be sooooo bored!
Obviously the dealership didn't respect his time. It was only a Total of $105 over the term of the lease. They should have just agreed to it. It's only a small amount.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Some deals just aren't worth making.
So on a full sized SC Range Rover with an invoice of around 86,000 dollars has a pack of 2,500 dollars.
A typical sport has a 1,700 dollar pack.
Kind of wipes out all of the payable gross.
LR3s have a pack of 2% of invoice and all used cars have a 300 dollar pack.
Off we went to the BMW Store, arriving just in time to see the one car I really wanted to drive -a 2003 CPO 530i manual Sport- being delivered to its new owners. At least the sales staff gave us first class treatment- too bad they had nothing else I wanted. Well, there WAS that Imola M5...
Stay tuned for my next adventure, where I'll attempt to test drive a Charger SRT8 :shades:
The Sweeney story reminds me of the last time I browsed the lot at the Lexus Store of Lexington, although there, I was unsuccessful in making contact with a human at all.
Yeah, I decided to wait for something I REALLY wanted, and as it turns out, I now have a somewhat larger vehicle acquisition budget as well. It was a nice truck, though.
Since 1973, social security numbers have been issued by our central office. The first three (3) digits of a person's social security number are determined by the ZIP Code of the mailing address shown on the application for a social security number. Prior to 1973, social security numbers were assigned by our field offices. The number merely established that his/her card was issued by one of our offices in that State. See also High Group List of SSN's.
To see what state a number was issued in: (hope this link comes out right)
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/employer/stateweb.htm
I ended up buying from Jake, though. I got a better price from them. They've always bent over backwards for me....for both sales and service. That said, I dealt with the new car people, not the CPO lot next door. I know they've got a boatload of used BMWs over at Jake's place.
Let us know how that SRT-8 test drive goes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You, like everyone else, is worth what the market dictates.
As for complaining about the $5, it works both ways. If $5 isn't such a big deal for the customer how come its such a big deal for you?
As I said before sometimes the deal can't go through. The customers maximum price is below the dealerships absolute minimum. If thats the case the deal cannot be done. No use complaining about it, move on to the next customer. Just don't complain about the customer not coming up $5 when you wouldn't go down $5.
Plus I will add that I am one of those people that will spend a month or more researching a car (I'm spending 10's of thousands of dollars remember), I will cross shop several different models and when I determine what I want I will shop at least two different dealerships. I have never been unhappy with a car purchased.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I agree, I bought a new 3er from them in 1998.
I want a plain-jane model with Automatic and thats it. Are these available and can I get one for around 30K?
Have you considered a slightly used one? If you can find one you will save thousands!
Just remember, down the road you will have a hard car to sell but at least someone else took the hardest depreciation hit.
If they can drive fifty miles to save a hundred dollars they will do that without the slightest feeling that they did anything wrong.
After all, it's money and nothing else is important to this type of customer.
They simply don't care and nothing you or I write in these forums will ever change that.
Sadly, a lot of excellent salespeople end up leaving the business over repeated customers like this.
Personally I leave the salesman out of the equation until I am getting ready to buy. By then All I need is a test drive and if I decide to buy to take the order.
how much is that worth to you.
Ever since my Subaru experience that is worth zip to me.
My point is from the sales side,
Ok but the sales side is not spending their hard earned money. You get a better understanding of the process that way.
over a meaningless dollar amount.
Just one comment, there is never a meaningless dollar amount. Please revert back to my first post on this matter.
Mind you we had already saved the guy over $180/month in payment.
I have to wonder did you save him $180/month or did you just come down $180/month from a high price point?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I don't think it's a good idea to spend hours with the first salesperson (researching, test driving, and finally negotiating), just to walk out with the number looking to save $50 or $100 down the road.
OTOH, if I get treated badly as in being talked down to or flim-flammed with extra fees like excessive "doc fees" and such, I'll have no such concern with walking out and trying elsewhere.
Of course, because I live in a smaller town with only one of each make represented by a dealer (and some makes like Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura not available at all locally), I'd have to consider also whether driving 30 or so miles to the next dealership is worth it.
The more I read these forums however, the more I'm convinced it's best to do as much research online or by reading magazines before you set foot in the dealership. And I also think it's best to come up with a target price (Edmunds' TMV for example) and stick to it, a la Bobst, again BEFORE meeting with the salesperson.
I'd also NEVER trade in a car; for me personally, I haven't done so since 1978. Also, NEVER buy anything from F&I (the only exception would be a factory extended warranty for an unreliable car like a Mercedes.) :P Last, always have financing lined up ahead of time.
This way, you only have to focus on the price of the new car.
Also, you could be a goodcarguy, but many salespeople are not so good. They will stop at nothing to squeeze the last buck out of us without loosing any sleep over it, so why shouldn’t we do the same?
This just a little off the subject here but why would anyone buy a car that is known to have quality issues to the extent they will need the additional protection of an extended warranty.
I guess the prestige of being seen driving that car is all that's important to some people.
BTW, 'delray', not to make you feel bad but my first new car was a 66' Bonneville. Held six adults comfortably. I always had to drive because everybody could easily fit into this boat.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
So they can use the term "My Mercedes" which sounds a lot better that "My Chevy" to social climbers.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You'd really prefer a "non-negotiable"system? What if the profit on a chevy was fixed at $7,000 or mercedes at $15,000? How would buyers feel then? Would buyers still feel like they got a "fair" deal? It's not the old days of the car business anymore...everybody knows everything about the cars from cost to head room. All that stuff is hard information but a sale is still just an agreement.--an agreement to sell and an agreement to buy. I could ask 100 people what's a fair deal and I'd get 100 different answers.
So, I'd rather drive an "unreliable Audi", and my wife have to wipe the smile off may face with a 2x4, than drive an aforementioned car, and hate life while I pass the mechanic shop.
For some of us crazy enthusiasts, reliability is a very small part of the puzzle
I know several Subbie salespersons and with the exeption of two product knowledge is not high on their list of qualifications.
Those two salespeople happen to be the number one salesperson and the Used Car manager for that store.
As far as your sentiments on product knowledge goes...I couldn't agree more. I could learn the Indianapolis Colts playbook but that doesn't mean that I can play for the team! You definitely must have a natural ability--everything else is secondary.
Make Subbie into Subie as in the US nickname for the brand.
Thanks for the explanation. I should have known there had to be a reason that made absolutely no sense what so ever for these types of beasts.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Like on the JD Power study if someone complains about the feel of the knobs on the radio, or the way they have to reach to get to the cupholders then that carries the same weight as a VOR(Vehicle Off-Road) Problem.
Jake Sweeney.. I didn't even know they had a CPO showroom until I drove by there today..Has to be fairly new. Their main facility was always pretty small, so I never got far inside without someone asking if I needed help. But, you can walk their lot for hours without anyone chatting you up. They always seemed fairly upfront about pricing on new cars. CPO? Again, asking prices are crazy high... and, they'll get a weird color or something out of the ordinary, and they'll sit on it for months and months.. They had a CPO E46 convertible in a strange custom green with matching green soft-top for at least a year. I would have cut that from the herd quick with a $5K discount, if I had been in charge. It depreciated more than that while they had it.
EDIT: The BMW Store does nice events.. I attended an X5 thing last week.. very nice catering..
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Well, when this "single male" starts shopping for the wife's new TL or Maxima next summer I will most certainly do the initial leg work by myself before asking her to come along. I will have culled all of the "hard sell" dealerships, the salesmen who can't get out of "Sales Seminar 101" mode, and the SM's whose best offer is $400 off sticker when the going rate is $400 under invoice. No need to drag the wife along for the dog and pony show and no need to pawn my son off on a family member/babysitter for an exercise in frustration. When I have found the dealer/salesman/price that I like, she will at that point come out and test drive the two, make her choice, and point to the desired color. Done deal.
Regardless, this "single male" will be in a Ford F150 if shopping locally or a stunning example of a 93 Ford Taurus wagon, teal over tan cloth, if I happen to be working in Atlanta at the time. (I'm sure the Acura guys will summersault right out the showroom door when I drive up in that piece. :P :surprise:
All kidding aside though, it seems that you are burned out -- either at this particular store or with the profession as a whole. Hope it gets better for you; been there, done that and it isn't fun!
Welcome to Edmunds, BTW.
The key difference today is that today's vehicles are worlds different than those even of 5 yrs ago. ???
Last Gen models of most makes were still mechanical vehicles with some some electronic control components. New Generations are increasingly rolling computers. It's an exageration but previous models mostly could be fixed with a wrench and sweat. These new models now require specialized electronic devices to analyze what a problem might be then OEM computers to download data and upload new programming.
Solving potential problems is actually easier in a lot of cases due to the fact that it only requires a software flash to be downloaded to the respective ECM ( of which there can be as many as 20 in the newer models ). The elctronic systems are probably more reliable and lighter and involve fewer parts since there are no mechanical linkages just electronic wiring.
But...what if the ECM's go bad or get damaged in normal usage ( see below ) or the wiring is faulty. The system is disabled and the only fix is to replace the ECM. In most vehicles the electronics are covered by the shortest warranty - the Basic Warranty or the Bumper-to-Bumper - which is normally 3/36.
When an ECM or other controller goes out the bill is often $400-$2000 depending on the system involved.
Now take a truck for example that does hard work and/or is used off road for fun. Take your PDA or laptop and close it then throw it against the wall. Now drop it in a bucket of water. Now do this every day. Think your 15-20 ECM's might take a little wear and tear - at $1000 a pop?
Now you were asking about an Extended Service Agreement?
Side note: Do most people realized that new vehicles now generally have 'black boxes', similar to airplanes, that record driving parameters on a realtime basis? They might record for example that when a vehicle lost control on a curve that it was doing 83.75 mph at 4AM and the yaw sensors noted that the vehicle was in an oversteer condition and the brakes were not applied.
My original question was:
"why would anyone buy a car that is known to have quality issues to the extent they will need the additional protection of an extended warranty".
I realize that all cars will have a problem at some point but some are known to have more and sometimes many more than others. These are the ones I was talking about.
Honda, Toyota, Infinity and now even Hyundai have shown that they have less problems than most other cars and their sales prove it.
When you have to buy an extended warranty to get you to the end of your car payments, you have purchased the wrong car.
I personally feel that all car manufactures (even the ones I mentioned above) have gotten way too cute with all the widgits that now appear on cars. Cars just don't need all this stuff. Please note, I'm not talking about safety features.
I've always questioned the need to buy these extended warranties for anything (TV's, refrigerators, washers/dryers etc.) not just cars. The way I look at it is if the manufacture doesn't have confidence in their product why should I?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
They'd likely buy something else or stay with their current vehicle. Manufacturers and dealer would quickly find that they can't sell enough cars to stay in business and someone would come up with a brilliant idea of lowering unit profit to $6000. If that was not enough, somebody else would lower it to $5000 and so on until a balance between demand and supply is reached. It is called marketplace.
You can achieve the same total profit by applying the same mid-to-low amount to each transaction, or you can achieve it by a casino-type system, in which some transactions are at loss (or low profit) and others are jackpots. Most retailers seem to opt for the former system, whereas car dealers seem to believe the latter serves them better. For now, anyway. So far it seems to be true and it's OK for me - just don't tell me it's for good of the consumer, because it is not.
2018 430i Gran Coupe