Stories from the Sales Frontlines

cdnpinhead

. . .I think that your friend is an ungrateful, selfish little B----!

Nicely put -- I couldn't agree more.

imidazol97

> Honda did not have a good competitor in the _small_ Civic sized cars

That should have been GM did not have a good competitor... I caught my error too late to edit.

Kirstie_H

Ha! I basically told her the same thing. In her (slight) defense, so has ZERO clue about cars - it came as a great shock to her that there was even the potential that a VW could cost more to maintain/repair than a Honda. She kept saying, "really? are you serious?" in response to stuff I'd tell her about the differences. She is well aware that she can be a selfish.... you know what.

They've been married for many years and they're total opposites when it comes to spending money - if it were up to him, they'd live in a broken-down shack in the 'hood and eat ramen noodles and save everything else for "someday," and if it were up to her, they'd live in a brand new house in the best neighborhood. They met somewhere in the middle, which is what they tend to end up doing.

She's seen the light re: my and her husband's perspective and will keep the car for at least another year, and save her own money in the interim so that if she does want something else in a year (NO stopping at car lots between now & then), there will be no payment.

tjc78

there will be no payment.

I just wish I had the willpower to not have car payments. I just want a newer car all the time. I am sure this may change, but for now that is what I'm sticking to. Its pretty sad that I don't even make a three year lease before trading out. Naturally, I will only do so if it means not rolling in negative equity, I'm not that stupid.

As for the Accord / Passat discussion. I think I would take my chances on an Accord with higher miles any day.

I was talking to a co-worker the other day about cars and he has an 01ish Accord with around 250K on the clock. The dash is lit up like a Christmas tree (CEL, Airbag, etc). The mechanic said that the time is near because to fix it would be well more than the car is worth. He is gonna drive it until his inspection is due (won't pass with CEL on) and then make a move. He really likes the Charger, I told him nice ride but to do research on reliability.

Kirstie_H

Mark is also our on-site "big boss" at Edmunds. He's very good at his job, and a great boss too - I'm sure he's being genuine in his assurances that he'll work his hardest to ensure a better user experience.

ken117

I am sixty-two but I am still too young to drive a Buick. Reminds me too much of good old dad's vehicles. Give me a good ol' HoToy!

And on the general side, I thank the unions for so much. I do enjoy my forty hour work week, my paid vacations, my paid holidays, my safe working conditions.

fezo

Yep. If you like your weekends thank a union!

I have yet to see any long term studies that say GM reliability has caught up. Their cars look better, are equipped nicer but I need to see some really positive reports on reliability. Ford's done it so it can be done and may already be underway.

nyccarguy

imidazol97 - My Dad's 2010 Chevy Tahoe has not been back to the dealer once in a little over 2 years & 48,000+ miles. It was his 1st American Vehicle purchase in 11 years (After an Infiniti QX4 & 2 BMW X5s). He likes it so much (as does my best friend his 2009 Tahoe w/ 63K on it), that he's trading it in for a leftover 2011 Tahoe. If it weren't for the 0% financing, my Dad had planned on driving his current 2010 Tahoe for at least 150,000 miles.

ken117 - I'm sure your union heads that have taken more lavish vacations than have worked anywhere close to a 40 hour work week thank-you very much.

verdugo

Yes it was dental care of Stamford!

Wow. They told me I had to replace some fillings with crowns. I was young, stupid, and naive so I said yes. I wondered if I really needed them. :sick:

The only redeeming quality is that every dentist I've seen since then (it's been more than 10 years) comments on the excellent work that Dental Care of Stamford did.

verdugo

There must be a lot of money from GM on those Tahoes. Good for your friends and Dad.

[Deleted User]

Sorry to learn about the dent, jmonroe. I keep meticulous care of my minivan, but that said, it still has a shopping-cart induced dent from a couple of years ago on the passenger fender. Does it bug me? Yes, but like your Legacy's "beauty mark" the dent is serious enough that it requires major repair and I prefer to avoid aftermarket paint/bondo when possible.

This may help you feel a little better:

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120228/OEM/120229878/1283

In summary, Consumer Reports just named Subaru as the top brand for reliability and driving tests with all models recommended. That'll help nicely with resale value for current owners

jmonroe

I just wish I had the willpower to not have car payments.

You don’t know what you’re missing. The first time I did that it felt GREAT. There is such a thing as life without car payments, you should try it. There is also such a thing as life without house payments but with the interest rates as low as they are now I don’t mind having those. This reminds me, those should be going away in about 4 years.

jmonroe

stickguy

haven't paid on a car in about 5 years. I honestly don't see how people can carry multiple car loans/leases. Of course, if you don't live in NJ with out of control property taxes 9escrow is more than my mortgage payment!) it helps.

driver100

I have yet to see any long term studies that say GM reliability has caught up.Heres a long term study on GM reliability:

Release Date: 10/26/2010
Consumer Reports' 2010 Annual Car Reliability Survey: GM makes big strides while Honda, Toyota dominate
General Motors has improved considerably, though Honda and Toyota still dominate in the latest predicted-reliability Ratings of new cars, according to Consumer Reports 2010 Annual Auto Survey. Eighty-three percent of Chevrolets, GM’s major brand, now have average or better scores in predicted reliability, up from 50 percent last year.

The results were announced today at an Automotive Press Association luncheon in Detroit.

While some GM nameplates had been among the least reliable brands in past years, they now rank above some major European competitors such as Audi, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz. Two factors are aiding GM’s reliability improvements. First, GM’s recent introductions, such as the Chevrolet Camaro and Equinox, Buick LaCrosse V6 (FWD), and Cadillac SRX, are proving reliable from the time they were launched. In addition, GM shed many models with subpar reliability when it shut down the Saturn, Pontiac, and Hummer brands. Even some older models, such as the Chevrolet Avalanche, Corvette, and Suburban have improved to average

Consumer Report

jmonroe

In summary, Consumer Reports just named Subaru as the top brand for reliability and driving tests with all models recommended. That'll help nicely with resale value for current owners

It’s always nice to hear good things about the car you just bought so of course I liked that article. I noticed that the article also had some very good words about the Mazda too. In fact, Mazda was number 2 just a point behind the Subie.

An interesting story here:

The regulars here know that I got the Legacy from a dealer in Columbus which isn’t that bad of a drive from the Burgh. I would have rather gotten one here but no one here had the 6 cylinder, color and options that we wanted so that explains why we went to Columbus. I test drove the Legacy as soon as we got there and was satisfied. I’m now in the salesman’s office looking over some paper and he asked that if I finished before he got back I could come and get him if I wanted to. He was going to set up the F&I guy for the final sign off. I finished before he got back and when I walked into the showroom I see Mrs. j and Son #1 looking over a nice Mazda 6. We had the following conversation:

Mrs. j: Why didn’t you mention this car, this car looks nice?

Me: We just drove a couple hours to get the Legacy and now you’d like to get a Mazda? We haven’t signed on the line yet so I guess Ralph could let us have a test ride in this and we could get a price if that’s what you want. This is going to be your car so what do you want to do? :confuse:

Mrs. j: I didn’t say that but this car looks pretty nice and I’m just surprised that you never said anything about a Mazda.

A different salesman hears our conversation and says.

Salesman: The Mazda’s are very nice cars and are doing pretty well and I’m sure that Ralph wouldn’t mind selling you this one but I’d still take the Subaru if I were you.

Like I said it’s nice to hear good things about your new car.

jmonroe

driver100

That's only $277 per year for repairs plus the usual maintenance.

Well, he has had some other repairs other years. I can only estimate but say he traded in his car 4 years earlier. The Civic that he paid $15k for would now be worth about $5800. He would not be out $2500 in repairs. His new car would have cost about $17,500. The cost to drive the Civic would be $1533 a year and he would pay $17500 - $5800 for a new one = $11,700.

His 2003 Civic cost $15000 + $2500 for the repairs and his trade in will be worth $4000. $17500- $4000 (trade in value) = $1500 a year.
To buy a new car he would have to pay $18500 (a new one 4 years newer is going to cost more) less his trade $4000 = $14500.

BTW My brother is retired and pays cash forhis car....he saves on the side.

It makes me think of an old muffler ad we used to have in Canada. A Darth Vader type voice says "You can pay me now, or you can pay me more later"

I will give you a 10% discount to the driver school of money management,
opening in May of this year.

driver100

I finished before he got back and when I walked into the showroom I see Mrs. j and Son #1 looking over a nice Mazda 6.

Good story JM but what the heck are Mazdas doing in a Suburu store?

tjc78

I honestly don't see how people can carry multiple car loans/leases.

Its not that bad. Keep in mind, we are without kids. I am sure once that happens things will change. Everything is a tradeoff. We have car payments but also haven't put out virtually any money on maintenance. A few oil changes a year on the Elantra and the Buick has pre-paid maintenance for the first two years.

J,
I'm looking into refinancing. I'm currently at 6% and know I can do a lot better. Would love to take my existing mortgage with 24 years left and go down to 15 with a minimal bump in payment.

fezo

While some GM nameplates had been among the least reliable brands in past years, they now rank above some major European competitors such as Audi, BMW

So you get a nice "feel of the shop.".....

Your brother in Canada as well? If he was in the states I;d be all set to get the Civic for my daughter....

jmonroe

Good story JM but what the heck are Mazdas doing in a Suburu store?

OK, just in case you are serious. The dealer I went to is a large dealer group in the Columbus area and the store I went to was a Subaru/Mazda store.

I'm sure you've heard of one store that sells a couple different makes. Just because BMW doesn't allow their cars to be contaminated with other brands in the same store doesn't make it illegal for others to do it.

jmonroe

driver100

So you get a nice "feel of the shop.".....

There's always a trade off. If you want superior electronics, gadgets, etc. then the car will probably have more problems. It's like some people don't want power windows because it's one more thing that can go wrong.
Besides, if you follow the "drivers guide to money-management" you will know, trade in your bmw when the 4 year warranty is over.

Your brother in Canada as well? If he was in the states I'd be all set to get the Civic for my daughter....

His car might be in good shape technically speaking, but I feel very unsafe in it. It is very minimal....personally, I just like to have more metal between me and the next guy. He even puts a club on his steering wheel when he leaves his car....like someone is going to steel it. :sick:

tjc78

He even puts a club on his steering wheel when he leaves his car

The club is the most useless anti-theft device in the world. One quick cut to the steering wheel and off you go.

fezo

This club would give you as much protection as The Club......

stickguy

Well, for what it is costing to put my oldest through college, I could have a really nice set of wheels. And that does not even take into account supporting a teenage daughter...

so dang man, you should be driving something nicer than a Buick!

Oh, and perfect time to refi. I am in the process of doing that (probably). as of today, on a 15 year loan, you can get about 3.25% (no points). Big drop over 6%, and chopping 9 years off for a negligible extra amount per month.

sterlingdog

I hope so. He seems like a nice guy.

Richard

sterlingdog

I can understand your dad's excitement about the Tahoe. I had one in the late '90s and really enjoyed it. Of all my favorites, it ranks #2 behind the Town Car.

Richard

sterlingdog

Oh, you didn't say that he had other major repairs in other years on the Civic. That would change the picture a bit, plus paying cash for the car also makes a difference. As for the discount on money management classes, I won't need it. I wrote the textbook that you'll be using.

Richard

driver100

I wrote the textbook that you'll be using.

I can believe it, with all the wheeling and dealing in antiques - while teaching, let alone steeling an SRX from the dealers lot, and then negotiating to buy a 4500 sq ft house.

You may want to take the course about "How to Justify Your Purchases to Yourself and Loved Ones".

sterlingdog

At my age, you don't justify; you just do what you want. I probably need the course entitled "How to Justify Leaving Loved Ones a Dime".

Too bad that you had to go home early. It's going to be 80 degrees here today. This weather is so crazy these days.

Richard

driver100

. I probably need the course entitled "How to Justify Leaving Loved Ones a Dime".

I do have a course on that, it is called "How to Justify Not Leaving Loved One's One Red Penny". We will try our best to spend everything we have. If there is something left over, it can go to loved ones. But, there is no plan in place. I always laugh when I see these financial company ads that start off with one of your goals should be to set aside money for loved ones. That's pretty low on my priority list.

Too bad that you had to go home early. It's going to be 80 degrees here today.

Yes, had to come back a bit early for a family matter. We will fly back on Mar 16 and stay until Apr 1st. Hope there won't be an early hurricane down there.

sterlingdog

Though it is nice not having car payments, I wouldn't worry too much about having them. Like you, I always enjoyed trading cars more frequently than most people. I just built the car payment into the monthly budget and enjoyed my cars. I usually tried to keep one car paid for, but there was a time or two that I had two payments. Just like houses or utility bills, car payments are payments. You figure out what you can afford and live accordingly. It has only been within the last five years that we no longer have car payments. I don't regret the decades that I made car payments. I traded cars often and, for the most part, really enjoyed the variety and what I drove. I never had many repairs because I traded every three or four years. Enjoy your cars.

Richard

sterlingdog

My sister has your philosophy. She and my BIL just returned from a two week African safari---$17K. She says that my niece and nephew might end up with something and they might not. She and her husband are spending their hard earned money and enjoying life. So are we. Though my niece takes it all in stride, my nephew has a stroke each time that we all take trips, buy houses, or trade cars. To irritate him more, I just say,"If you continue to work hard, you'll enjoy doing these things as well." He just rolls his eyes and moans. I love it.

Richard

jmonroe

You may want to take the course about "How to Justify Your Purchases to Yourself and Loved Ones".

I never did go for that “justification” stuff. My justification was simple…I wanted it and I knew I could afford it if I considered getting it. I try not to complicate my life. I have used this method for tools, cars, houses, you name it. Years ago we were talking about tools one day at work and I just happened to mention a drill (non battery type back then) that I had gotten about two weeks prior. One of the guys says, “damn jmonroe, how can you justify buying a drill like that? You don’t use it every day like a contractor”! My answer was, “only a rich man can afford to buy cheap tools”. This was back in the mid 70’s. I still have that drill and it works like it was new.

Believe it or not this same guy about 10 years later was procrastinating about buying a basketball for HIMSELF. Should he get the one that costs $12.95 or $16.95? He mulled this over for about a month and when he finally went to get the $12.95 basketball they were out of them. He said, “that proves it. That ball was so popular they couldn’t keep them in stock so it must have been the better ball”. A fellow worker said, “NO, that proves that you aren’t the only cheap guy buying basketballs”. I know for a fact that this guy was not on the lower end of the food chain, salary wise. Honest, I’m not making this up.

When you have to “justify” something it just ruins the whole purchase.

jmonroe

stickguy

Well, I certainly hope my parents (in their early 80s!) don't stumble upon a copy of this book...

j/k. They actually are enjoying life taking trips 2-3x a year. I don't begrudge them in the least (just mad they never took me!)

other than that, they live simply. Will there be something left eventually? Damned if I know. Probably has more to do with if they live out live in their house, vs. spend years in a nursing home.

to me, the saving for loved ones is actually saving for me. You have to be careful spending it all before you go, because if you screw up the timing and live too long, what are you going to live on?

fezo

I probably need the course entitled "How to Justify Leaving Loved Ones a Dime".

You don't have to worry - you're leaving it to me.....

If I had a nephew who was moaning anytime I spent money because he thought that would be that much less for him in the will I'd solve the problem for him by removing him from the will.

nyccarguy

Richard - fantastic advice as always. There is something inside me though that wants to pay my car loan off in full. I've got a little less than 3 years to go on the TSX. As a car nut, I'm always looking ahead to what's next.

Do I pay off my TSX and drive it until it has 150,000 -175,000 miles?
Do I trade it in at the end of 2012 for something with more grip & more grunt like a leftover TL SH-AWD using the equity I have in the car to get a similar payment?

Like you Richard, I've never been bothered by making a car payment because it is something I enjoy (the car).

Kirstie_H

We're looking at it too. We re-fied a couple of years ago at 4.something, and have just recouped the closing costs on that re-fi. Gotta look at how long it would take to recoup the closing costs if we went down a bit more, because we're not planning to be here forever. But 3.something is awfully tempting and worth a look!

michaellno

Well, I certainly hope my parents (in their early 80s!) don't stumble upon a copy of this book...

j/k. They actually are enjoying life taking trips 2-3x a year. I don't begrudge them in the least (just mad they never took me!)

other than that, they live simply. Will there be something left eventually? Damned if I know. Probably has more to do with if they live out live in their house, vs. spend years in a nursing home.

My parents don't need the book. It's already taken care of. They are in their 70's, house is paid for (well, except for the reverse mortgage) and everything is laid out in black and white. All assets (cars, furniture, etc.) are sold and put into a trust, which is then divided six ways - 2 kids and 4 grandkids.

tjc78

so dang man, you should be driving something nicer than a Buick!

I like my Buick, stop breaking my ba***!

as of today, on a 15 year loan, you can get about 3.25% (no points).

I just looked on a quick calculator and at 3.25 my payment would go up around $50/month to take off 9 years. I have to get on this. Wells Fargo is always sending me letters to refinance.

Richard, as always thanks for the nice words. How is your house purchase coming?

tjc78

house is paid for (well, except for the reverse mortgage)

I was going to have my Grandfather look into the reverse mortgage, but he ended up selling and going to live with my Mother.

It seems in some areas (especially the Northeast) its hard for the seniors to stay in their homes with the high taxes, upkeep etc. The reverse mortage can help with all that.

imidazol97

>Gotta look at how long it would take to recoup the closing costs if we went down a bit more, because we're not planning to be here forever.

When looking at refinancing when we were paying, I used my TRS80 to run a spreadsheet of the total payments if I put the money costs I would have paid for the refi into extra payments rather than refinancing.. Every time it was much better to put the money into extra payments early in the loan especially and reap the savings on the reduced interest on the lower principal.

I couldn't see going from a payment that was 10% principal after a few years to one where 99% of the payment was principal with a new loan.

mako1a

But 3.something is awfully tempting and worth a look!

kirstie, back in 1997 or so I wanted to refi from 9.5%. I had to go

down to 7.2% to make it worthwhile. I was making $3-4k more than

I was spending and could afford big payments, so I took out a

home equity loan. As soon as I got those gold plated checks I went

to the (same bank-heloc and mortgage) and wrote a check from the

equity line and paid off the mortgage. Bank lady said "Can you do that?"

"I said why not"? Made $2-3k payments for a few years and bingo, house paid off.

Then used same heloc to buy a near new Corvette to celebrate. WooHoo.

tjc78

I couldn't see going from a payment that was 10% principal after a few years to one where 99% of the payment was principal with a new loan.

This is a good point, especially if you may not be hanging around for long. If you staying in your home for a long time reduciing the number or years you have to pay is probably almost always a safe bet. Many mortgage companies offer a no-cost refinance that makes things very attractive to you while getting them a customer in a new loan where the majority of the payment is interest. In the short term they probably make out, long term you do.

tommister2

Similar story here, but starts differently. I wanted to eliminate my escrow account. The mortgage company told me they charge a 40% fee to cancel escrow. Rediculous! I asked, what if I just pay off the mortgage? No fee, so I sent them a check off my equity line (which had a lower interest rate anyway). That was two years ago, and after 23 large monthly payments my equity line balance is $0. It feels good. Another minor difference...I doubt I will borrow to buy a vette at this time

I do have a car loan from Toyota, but it's 0% for 60 months so I'll just ride it out.

sterlingdog

"...because if you screw up the timing and live too long, what are you going to live on?"

Excellent point. That's one reason my wife and I have long term care insurance. We don't want the healthy one to suffer financial problems trying to keep the other one in a nursing home. Also, I watch our savings closely. We don't want to spend foolishly, but we do want to enjoy the remaining time that we have.

Richard

sterlingdog

Though some regulars would say that I'm crazy, I would trade if I could have a similar payment. You're young and hard working. You should enjoy your cars now. Life is too short. Don't put things off as long as you can afford to make the payments. Tomorrow is not given to us until we get there.

Richard

stickguy

I want the escrow account. Living in NJ, it would be too depressing to have to pay my taxes directly (at least when they are buried in the mortgage payment you can pretend they aren't so high!). Also does not cost me anything, so no biggie.

I am actually looking to go the other way (extend the term). I put my recent major upgrades on the HELOC, so my intent is to refi that + the 1st mortgage into one loan, with the payment actually slightly smaller than what the 1st is today. that way, i am locking in the low rate (slightly lower than the HELOC is todya, and that is adjustable). Plus freeing up cash flow, while still having the credit line in reserve.

Once I get the kids out of school and the house, then I can accelerate the paydowns!

besides, I don't plan to be in the place until the end of the term, so who cares how many months are left if you are selling?

and right now, money is cheap (dirt cheap when you figure you can get 4% interest, and write it all off your taxes so in effect what, 2.5-3% locked in for 30 years?)

stickguy

I agree. Having a car payment (and having it built into the ongoing budget) you might as well have a newer car. In a sense, it is like leasing (since you never actually "own" it).

So, instead of driving a 4 YO car on a 5 year loan, why not drive a 1 YO car on a 5 year loan!

It really isn't until you pay a loan off and get used to not having a payment. then it is hard to sueeze it back into the budget. That is why it was nice to have bought my last few cars with cash (+ euqity from the last car!)

tommister2

I was offered a job in Jersey about ten years ago. Even with a 50% pay increase I figured my take home pay would be lower because taxes and insurance are so much more expensive there. I like Virginia

Kirstie_H

There's a very good reason why I am not in charge of this process. Running numbers makes my head hurt. I'm fortunate to be with someone who is good at it. I know last time he had figured out that it would take exactly 20 months to re-coup the closing costs, but then again he knew he'd be here for at least that long.

Paying more on the principal just wouldn't work. No matter how financially sound that might be, he can't bring himself to add a visible "expense" to his monthly outgoing. I've tried to get him to pay extra on his car loan to have it paid off sooner (he only has 14 months left), and though an extra $100/month wouldn't hurt his budget in the least, he has yet to do it. Sigh.

Between the original downpayment and payments, we've got about 70% of the original loan balance left. It's not an expensive house, nor are the payments expensive or burdensome, so it might be time to look at converting to a 15-year loan for the balance. I might be able to sell that one.

But no... I am just so bad at calculations and such. My financial asset is being incredibly frugal, and as he says, squirreling away money in my secret stashes. Often, when we want to buy something that seems a big hit on the monthly budget, like the awesome firepit we got, he'll decide that it's a bit much, and I'll be like, "well, I did save $xx for outdoor improvements this year, so we can spend some of that..."