BMW that follows the factory regimen will make it to 100,000 miles- and that's all BMW cares about.
Wouldn't BMW worry about selling used cars on their lot? Wouldn't they worry about selling extended warranties if all these cars were going to seize up?
Trailing throttle oversteer, are you sure they opened for Journey, I thought it was for The Eagles.
Seriously, BMW is more interested in selling cars than sticking to their roots. Thy driving a 2013 328 or 335, light steering and softer ride. No dipstick, less time spent servicing the car, are what todays buyers want. I am not sure the coolant is the same or what changes have been made to make it last longer, but those are changes that get engineered into the new models.
People say the free oil changes aren't free, you pay for them, so if you pay for them why risk the reputation of the company and billions of dollars in business over a $50 oil change.
Saturday Night Live take-off with the Rabbi circumcising the baby
I remember that one and that was hilarious, a classic.
Good luck tomorrow. I thought they should make that drink chocolate mocha flavor....then it would be more tolerable. Drinking that stuff is the hard part, the rest is easy.
I do remember fantasizing about all the food I would be eating after it all, just to celebrate. The problem was, after all that, I didn't feel like eating anything until the next day. By then I didn't care any more.
a bad sensor and you could be in a panic. I'm sure your car will be fine.
All cars will have these same features in a few years. It's the same as tire air pressure monitors. At some point, you have to rely on the technology.
You can call it smug, I don't know, to me these are improvements made for today's driver. Today's driver doesn't want to check the oil or their tires every week....like we were supposed to do a few years ago. Car companies make cars so they are easier to maintain....all cars will have these features, and more, in a few years.
Let's assume it costs BMW about $100.00 for an oil and filter change, which includes $60.00 for what they have to pay for labor (the most expensive part of the oil change) and the usual inspections required at each oil change. Let's say they sell 350,000 cars and SUV's in the US. Now multiply that by the $100 and you end up with a tidy sum. So if they can save one or 2 oil changes per car over the 4 years, it isn't "peanuts" is it?
I was in Israel last week and I rented a not-available-in-the-US tiny Honda Civic coupe (http://www.honda.co.il/Civic5D I'm sure driver will be able to post a picture.)
I love gadgets and technology, but I think Honda went too far (Sorry Craig.)
The car came with a regular key. The ignition switch was on the right side -- the same as any car. You had to turn it all the way to the right AND THEN you had to use your left hand to push a button that said "start engine" that was located to the left of the steering wheel.
So to turn on the car, you had to use both hands. Totally stupid.
on this subject. US market is toughest market when it comes to selling vehicles. Same cars have to be 30-50 percent cheaper to sell. The reward is big volumes. This market alone is something like half of volumes for Benz or BMW, so it is critical.
However, Americans seem to be much less tight with their money when it comes to services. Eating out, entertainment - and repairs/maintenance. Put too high price on a product in a store and they walk away, but they can't get enough extended warranties, insurance, all those "peace of mind" products. When I think about it, it is not surprising. This is service-based economy. Most people work by providing some kind of service. So there may be a feeling, whether conscious or not, that cutting out services is bad karma or something, because we all depend on it. When a guy tells you you have to check yourself four times a year, who are you to question this judgment. Same with your mechanical items, whether in the house or vehicle. Everybody also knows somebody with a bad case of blown engine, broken AC, etc. which validates that "feeling" that I have to do something before it gets me. It doesn't cost that much to change oil, power steering fluid, transmission fluid, surely it's cheaper than a new one - so why not do it? Intuitively sounds logical, "better safe than sorry". But really is it? How many people we know actually did not have any problems? What is real percentage of those problems amongst reliable cars. How many of those problematic cars were actually due to poor maintenance, not defects? All we know are some "massaged" statistics salesmen show us when they want us to purchase "gold plus platinum with iridium plating" service protection plan. The statistic is usually presented in such a way that one should be scared to sit in a chair, let alone leave a house or operate heavy machinery.
There are other factors related to service on machinery. Every time any machine is open, something can go wrong, something can be broken, put together incorrectly. There is even a risk of dishonest service provider telling you your machine is broken, even if it's not (I experienced that first hand on my house AC - the "tuneup" technician told me I had a leak, but eight months later it is still going strong).
I'm not against maintenance, not at all - but the more I think about it, the more I conclude I also let myself in the past to get scared by the service industry into "do this or else". To me, BMWs 16 thousand mile recommendation is a breath of fresh air. Here is one company that broke that circle of "do it every 3 months" - probably took them some time to stand up to their own dealers. The initial motivation might as well be related to minimizing expense due to their paid maintenance program - many good things start in attempt to save money. But I'm pretty sure they did not just cut the numbers without doing any research or development, just because they could save on the service. I suspect the research showed they could run it on 20-25 thousand miles and failure rates were still within decent parameters.
It is peanuts if it poses a substantial risk of higher than industry average rates of premature engine failures. Long-term brand damage would take years to recover from. Hard to imagine from a company that is generally known for taking long-term view on their strategies and does not have a big track record of unnecessary shortcuts.
They gave you Go-Lightly. Sorry to hear that. My only words of consolation are that the sedation they give you (usually propofyl) is phenomenal. I feel like a million bucks when I wake up -- which I'll take given that I've had one every other year since I was 18.
You'll be a bit sore around your abdomen after, but its really not bad. You're in the midst of the worst part. Good luck and hope everything comes back negative!
2025 Jetta GLI Autobahn, 2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xE
Wouldn't BMW worry about selling used cars on their lot? Wouldn't they worry about selling extended warranties if all these cars were going to seize up?
I'd guess maybe 1% of used BMWs on dealer lots have over 100,000 miles on them; BMW doesn't care a bit about those cars. And BMW sells an extended warranty that goes past 100,000 miles? News to me.
Seriously, BMW is more interested in selling cars than sticking to their roots.
Agreed. That's why they don't build many real BMWs anymore.
Try driving a 2013 328 or 335, light steering and softer ride. No dipstick, less time spent servicing the car, are what todays buyers want.
How do you say "Boring soft car" in German? As I said previously, 99.99999% of new BMW buyers are badge hounds- NOT enthusiasts.
I am not sure the coolant is the same or what changes have been made to make it last longer, but those are changes that get engineered into the new models.
BMW decides coolant was a lifetime fill around 2004, but the coolant remained the same the same(it's G0-5, a "Hybrid OAT"); and if anyone can tell me what mechanical changes were made to increase coolant life from 48 months to infinity, please let me know.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I'm sorry to say, but there is no way anyone can tell me BMW didn't raise the service intervals up because they now include maintenance.
Abamike's post about the amount of money they save says it all.
I also would never let a car go 15k without a change of oil. If I owned a BMW I would pay for my oil changes at 7500 miles and let them pick up the tab at 15k.
used BMWs on dealer lots have over 100,000 miles on them; BMW doesn't care a bit about those cars.
Do they want their cars to be worthless after 100K miles? That would devalue the whole product.
It seems technology moves forward but people find it hard to give up old habits.
From MSN - Top 10 Car Maintenance Mistakes
Oil Change Timing Oil changes every 3,000 miles used to be required jobs, just like cleaning the accumulated fuzz from record player needles or defrosting freezers. Today, advances in engine design and lubricants make oil changes something to be done when the schedule calls for it, not when granddad says it's time. Some cars call for 5,000-mile change intervals, some up to 15,000-mile stints. Others have a variable timer. Follow the schedule and use the oil called for by the manufacturer. MSN - Top 10 Car Maintenance Mistakes
The coolant might be the same but the way the car uses the coolant may differ. For example, a completely sealed system may not get contaminated, similar to transmission fluid - have a life of 100K.
Oil changes....I doubt the debate here is going to change any of our minds regarding their intervals. I don't have any issues changing the oil in mine (on BMW's dime) every year (or about 10K miles). Then again, I'm one of those who won't keep mine past the warranty period (if that long). Why? Same reasons everyone else says.....something goes sideways and I start staring at a $2K bill to fix this or that, and tie up my car for a week or more, I'm not going to be happy with that BMW. And, the likelihood of that happening is probably around 50-50 after the warranty expires. I don't like extended warranties, either. Every time I've bought one, I never used it. Every time I didn't buy one, I needed it.
I do have a theory about used BMWs. I think the only ones you find with high mileage for sale, won't be at the BMW dealers, but the secondary lots, who specialize in old, used up, lux iron. We've all seen them in each city....the lots have 80K, 90K, 100K+ mile lux cars on their lots. You want to get into the brand, but can't/won't pay the cost of admission for a new, or CPO used one, go to these lots.
Those are also the places you'll find Range/Land Rovers (where Craig's warnings about RR maintenance and reliability goes unheeded), old Jags, high mileage Mercedes....mostly very used European marks.
Just my observations that have absolutely no scientific basis.
For the record, as bad of a rap as U.S. brands get, I see more 15-20 year old Chevies and Fords on the roads, still running, than I do 20 year old Jaguars, or Land Rovers, or even Audis/BMWs. While U.S. brands may not be the most reliable cars when you first get them, they do tend to have the longevity feature nailed.
That being said, the longevity crown has to go to Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus. Those old cars are still all over the road.
I agree about the older BMWs. when I was looking early in the year at 2004-5 3 series, I saw plenty at little local lots of all stripes. Plus quite a few at other brand (Ford, Hyundai) dealers, but those usually had a touch lower miles.
once you get into the 120s (I was looking for about 70-80 max) you were into very sketchy BHPH territory.
As I said previously, 99.99999% of new BMW buyers are badge hounds- NOT enthusiasts.
I don't think 99.999% are badgehounds, I do think there are a large percentage of people who like the quality and ambience of a European car. There are subtle differences, not saying necessarily better, just different.
A certain amount of steering control, a ride that communicates the road, styling, comfort, engineering are reasons people choose BMWs. Of course some people choose the car for the nameplate.
BMW is walking a fine line these days, trying to please the enthusiasts, while trying to sell to the widest possible range of customers. They seem to be succeeding at the latter, but, not so much the former. But, when you have to pay the bills, you do what you have to do.
I don't think 99.999% are badgehounds, I do think there are a large percentage of people who like the quality and ambience of a European car.
You mean like the sizable percentage of BMW owners who believe their car is FWD?
A certain amount of steering control, a ride that communicates the road, styling, comfort, engineering are reasons people choose BMWs.
Perhaps like the BMW "enthusiast" I met at the F30 launch who said, "When I get in my car I don't want to have to do anything." These owners confuse steering effort with feel, and need healthy doses of built-in understeer to stay out of the weeds. Yes, real car buffs...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
>, easy to get at, that you just unscrew and then add your oil.
So BMW hasn't found a way to require a BMW special part to be able to add oil to your engine? That surely will be next. It will be a real money maker: you have to buy the special $89.99 part to use to add oil or take ot back to your BMW dealer to get the special superduper BMW only oil added by them. :P
So if they can save one or 2 oil changes per car over the 4 years, it isn't "peanuts" is it?
It is peanuts compared to millions of cars seizing up when they reach the 100K mile mark. If that happened the value of used bmws would drop a lot more than the amount of a $100 oil change.
Now we are hearing they make the coolant last 100K miles so they don't have to replace that so often. But, if they said the coolant only lasts for 4 years or 48K miles, they could sell you more coolant at say 60K miles if they wanted to (it would make up for that one oil change).
Every one is looking for conspiracy theories these days. If oil changes were necessary at 10K miles why wouldn't the oil companies be warning us to change our oil more frequently? They could make a bundle using scare tactics...but they don't, because they don't have a case.
So BMW hasn't found a way to require a BMW special part to be able to add oil to your engine?
One thing I am sure BMW knows is that people in business clothes or ladies who are dressed up don't want to be messing around with oil. That's one reason they realize people want fewer oil changes.
You actually have a good idea there. A special tank to hold oil, like the washer fluid reservoir. When you need more you just press a button and the oil gets squirted into the engine.
For the record, as bad of a rap as U.S. brands get, I see more 15-20 year old Chevies and Fords on the roads, still running, than I do 20 year old Jaguars, or Land Rovers, or even Audis/BMWs.
There is a considerable export industry of used luxury cars (and I don't mean thieves - real legitimate exports). US-market BMWs, Benzes and Audis cost 40-60% of those sold in Europe or other markets (and are often better equipped). Moreover, loss of value in the US is much more rapid than in those markets, making a 5-year old luxury car a very lucrative export product to places like Eastern Europe (perhaps now less than in the past), Africa, Latin America, etc. I believe a lot of those go overseas and that's why you don't see them here.
Put a stop into that bashing. How do you know that? Did you go and make a survey? It starts turning ofensive - wrapping all groups of people you know nothing about into a convenient category, so you feel better about yourself.
dino....I know there are certain vehicles (or classes of vehicles) that have a following overseas. The ones you mention....high end BMWs, Audis, MBs.
Probably the most surprising (and literally the biggest U.S. export) is the Cadillac Escalade. Seems like no matter what country I travel to, I always see several Escalades during my stay. Weird...especially given than foreign roads tend to be smaller than they are here. Plus, the cities are more congested, gasoline is higher, driving restrictions exist, and parking is next to non-existent.
Yet, there they are in all their splendor......Cadillac Escalades!
since the topic du jour, I had my Volvo in for a service today. I think it took 5 quarts?
anyway, I asked, and they use a synthetic blend. And the schedule is 7,500 miles or 1 year, whichever comes first. Should be time for us, but 7,500 is about as long as I would have gone anyway (and might do 6K if we get there before 1 year).
It definitely should be changed at the end of one year no matter what the mileage is. You can be extra safe and do it at 6K or even 3K, but from what I am reading, your Volvo should go to 7500K without any problem, and you would save yourself some money and the environment some oil.
Look, I wish the marque wasn't being taken over by non-enthusiasts, but that's the sad and sorry truth. I certainly don't think a BMW owner has to be able to field-strip every drivetrain component to be considered an enthusiast, but -in my experience- the vast majority of new BMW buyers only care about the emblem on the hood.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Yup, the Go-lightly is exactly what they gave me and as you said the procedure was a piece of cake compared to the downing of 135 ounces of that stuff over 4 hours. Whatever was in the IV I was out almost instantly and the next thing I knew I was back in the pre-procedure room. Supposedly, unless there is some obvious change in my habits or cast-offs, they don't need to see me for 10 years. Do you have some family history that merits the biennial exams?
Isn't propofyl what Michael Jackson OD on? If that's what they gave me I can see why he wanted it as a sedative. The only similar instantaneous lights-out experience I can compare to it are my two head injuries (not recommended). Even what they gave me for oral surgery wasn't as quick acting.
"How do you say "Boring soft car" in German? As I said previously, 99.99999% of new BMW buyers are badge hounds- NOT enthusiasts."
RB--
I know that Schlaff is German for flabby or flaccid, both of which might fit the car and, dare I say, some of the drivers--at least the ones not taking Viagra or working out. :P disclaimer: the previous statement does not apply to any of the well-endowed and extremely virile members of this forum whether they be from Canada, Kentucky or elsewhere.
Although most of jmonroe's colleagues were young women in search of the bimmer badge, he might have affected a bad Austrian accent like Hans and Franz and called them Schlaffhunds (flabhounds), which might be roughly equivalent to the anglicized girly-man insult hurled by muscle men at those of us not on the juice and regularly pumping iron.
"For the record, as bad of a rap as U.S. brands get, I see more 15-20 year old Chevies and Fords on the roads, still running, than I do 20 year old Jaguars, or Land Rovers, or even Audis/BMWs. While U.S. brands may not be the most reliable cars when you first get them, they do tend to have the longevity feature nailed. "
GG--
Good point, although in my area some of that could be accounted for by the much larger volume of US cars--and especially trucks--being sold in the first place.
I would also think as a matter of simple economics that we may see fewer luxury cars simply because it is much less expensive for the middle income American to keep, say, an 8-year old Ford Taurus on the road than an 8-year old BMW 5 series. And then one has to consider who is buying 5-10 year old vehicles in the first place. Undoubtedly a small percentage could buy new, but the vast majority are in circumstances where they couldn't possibly have bought new, however sufficient depreciation has made what would have been an unobtainable vehicle suddenly accessible. I also think that there is always a segment of purchasers who will equate luxury with reliability (it costs a lot so it must be made to last), only to find themselves way over their heads with expensive repair bills.
Although this is an extreme example, I mentioned that a father of a student gave me a ride in his Lamborghini Gallarado. I think he said a "typical" brake job for that car was $3500. I'm guessing some of those lusting for the badge aren't taking into consideration how much more it will cost to keep those cars on the road once outside of the manufacturer''s warranty.
gogi....you're probably right. There are a lot more Caprices and Tauri out there than there Audis, BMWs and Benzs.
I know my BMW dealer is trying to convince those who pay for their own maintenance that a BMW dealer oil change "ONLY" costs ~$70-$80 (as if that's some sort of deal). So, maybe they are appealing to the lux buyer as being at least a smidge frugal.
I would hope a Lambo owner knows what he or she is in for with maintenance costs.
I'm sure there are some around, but I wouldn't even know who would be qualified to work on a Lambo in my town. I know there aren't any dealers.....at least no "new" dealers.
How was your trip? Were you touring or visiting somewhere specifically?
I was there for work. I was in Haifa. I did do a bit of sightseeing, but I came straight back because of the Holiday here. I usually spend a few extra days there or stop by on the way back.
While U.S. brands may not be the most reliable cars when you first get them, they do tend to have the longevity feature nailed.
I think that one reason for that perceived longevity is that the Asian and American automakers assume their vehicles will be abused while most European manufacturers assume(or at least used to assume) that their products will be maintained properly. For example, I'll sometimes hear a BMW owner complain about having to replace an ABS control unit(or other hydraulic brake components) on an E36 or E46 3er. When I ask when the brake fluid was last changed I get the classic "deer in the headlights" vacant stare.
And as gogiboy said, lots of dimwits buy a BMW 750, a M-B S500 or Porsche 9xx for @$10,000 or less without considering the fact that these cars cost $60,000 or more new- and that repairs will likely be proportionate to the original MSRP- not the purchase price. For instance, I was at my indie shop several years ago when a guy brought in a 944 with a front brake pad that was almost worn down to the rivets; I actually heard him ask if the shop could just replace the pads on that wheel, as he didn't have enough money to do both front wheels.
In my case, out of the 10 BMWs I've owned since 1983, only one has suffered an expensive mechanical failure(the transfer case and rear driveshaft in the 2004 X3 at 136,000 miles). Up to that point unscheduled repair costs had averaged out to $20 per month over the 77 months we had owned the truck. Including the major repair in June still puts the number at just $67 per month. Considering the fact that the car has been paid off since June 2007 -and noting that the average monthly car payment is $300 to $400- I think I'm coming out way, WAY ahead of the game. Of course I also follow the maintenance schedule BMW used before they started picking up the tab... :P
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Once again driver doesn't disappoint. That's the one.
The starter was def. weird. Also, the door handles for the passenger doors were in the window sill. Both of them were black, which made it very hard to see.
I was there for work, mainly in Haifa right on the coast. Much better view than from my office.
I know my BMW dealer is trying to convince those who pay for their own maintenance that a BMW dealer oil change "ONLY" costs ~$70-$80
But you only do the oil change every 15000 miles, might be cheaper than doing an American car every 5000 or even 7500 miles.
Actually, when you are talking longevity, a much larger percentage of Luxury brands are on the road after 15 to 20 years. Less than 30% of regular brands (Except Toyota was 35% and Honda 40%) and over 70% for Mercedes, Lexus and Porche, 66% for BMW. Toyotas, and Hondas do well too, but around 35 to 40%.
Also, the door handles for the passenger doors were in the window sill. Both of them were black, which made it very hard to see
In some countries they don't seem to care about these things...just make the car as practical and at the lowest price possible. In North America we like to be pampered much more.
What are the big sellers in Israel. When I was there about 12 years ago I was surprised by the number of Mercedes taxi cabs, and they started using quite a few Passats too. But most people drove pretty basic Toyotas and Hondas. Cars at that time cost about 3X what they do here.
What are the big sellers in Israel. When I was there about 12 years ago I was surprised by the number of Mercedes taxi cabs, and they started using quite a few Passats too. But most people drove pretty basic Toyotas and Hondas. Cars at that time cost about 3X what they do here.
Toyotas, Hondas, and Hyundais were the big sellers. Mainly the smaller car segment. After that, you have a few Fords (Fiesta, Focus,) and very little European small cars (VW, Skoda, Peugot.)
As for luxury cars, few Mercedes, some BMW, and Audis. I saw one Lexus.
I was surprised by the number of Jeep Wranglers. It could be that I noticed them more since I bought one, but I don't remember seeing so many in the past.
Taxis are now small cars. I didn't see any Mercedes ones.
And just like GG said, I did see a couple of Escalades.
I just paid ~$65 at the volvo dealer. But, I was willing to pay extra to make sure I got the right oil and filter. Plus, they did a complete top to bottom inspection, and even washed it and cleaned the interior. All in all, a good deal to me!
My Mercedes and now my Lexus GS350 have Dual Direct Injection systems. I heard somewhere that these systems tend to clog or gum up quickly due to gasoline impurities. Further, that these systems need to be maintained with additives to ensure they are operating at full efficiency. I have not had any problems at this point with the new Lexus. I tend to put in either Shell V-Power (93 octane rating) or Hess Premium grade gasolines.
Some of you guys are pretty savvy regarding maintenance and was wondering if you had any suggestions about the gasolines I should be using as well as suggestions for specific additives to keep the injectors clean and operating at top efficiency.
I try to kick it down every so often to build up pressures so the injectors perform well, but I wonder if that is a waste of gasoline. I try to get the RPM's up to 4000+ when I can, but not every day, obviously.
Hi Mike. Any Tier 1 gasoline will contain the detergents needed to keep injectors clean. If you're really worried, then Techron is a safe bet. With DI, the problem lays in the valves, which won't see fuel or additives. Some engines seem to fair worse than others by design. I don't have a good recommendation as the industry seems to still be adapting to this new challenge.
So if it's the valves that seem to take the brunt of the stress in these types of engines, perhaps it's more than just a high quality gasoline that is needed - one would need a high quality oil as well! I don't know what brand of oil Lexus recommends since I won't be due for an oil change until March or April of next year, but it is full synthetic.
Techron is an additive in Chevron gasoline, but is Techron available as a separate additive? What about STP gas treatment or Gumout gas treatment? Worth the cost or not?
With DI, where no fuel touches the intake system, maybe it's the EGR which dirties the the back of the intake valves? I thought Toyota's dual system, which uses port injection part of the time, would help keep the valves clean.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Techron is an additive in Chevron gasoline, but is Techron available as a separate additive? What about STP gas treatment or Gumout gas treatment? Worth the cost or not?
Techron is the best- no contest. I put a 20 oz. bottle in the fuel tanks of my BMWs every 3000 miles. And I still use a Top Tier fuel. The problem is that in pure DI engines the intake valves never see any fuel spray...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
My wife and daughter are going to test drive cars next weekend. We need another car, so one or the other is going to get one. I'll just stay home and have the salesperson call me if they find one they like.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
The domestics have come a long way from the crap boxes they used to make when I was younger (1980s - 1990s). There are certain segments right now that I'd consider buying American whereas 5 years ago I'd scoff at the idea.
My Dad & my best friend are both on their 2nd LTZ Tahoes. If I needed a full sized, 4WD, SUV, I probably wouldn't look anywhere else. Same thing if I needed a full sized pickup truck, I'd head straight for a Silverado.
V8 powered, RWD, drop dead gorgeous, sports car? I'll take a Corvette. Hands down.
I'd buy a Jeep Grand Cherokee in a heartbeat. My sister's loaded up Explorer XLT is extremely luxurious and very well appointed. I think Wranglers are awesome & if I could bring myself to own 2 vehicles that average high teens in the MPG dept, I'd buy one.
For my next car (when the lease is up on my BMW in 2 years), I'm going to strongly consider a Ford Focus hatch along with a SkyActive Mazda 3 & a Honda Fit Sport.
In fact, I'd buy a domestic over any VW product.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Comments
Wouldn't BMW worry about selling used cars on their lot? Wouldn't they worry about selling extended warranties if all these cars were going to seize up?
Trailing throttle oversteer, are you sure they opened for Journey, I thought it was for The Eagles.
Seriously, BMW is more interested in selling cars than sticking to their roots. Thy driving a 2013 328 or 335, light steering and softer ride. No dipstick, less time spent servicing the car, are what todays buyers want.
I am not sure the coolant is the same or what changes have been made to make it last longer, but those are changes that get engineered into the new models.
People say the free oil changes aren't free, you pay for them, so if you pay for them why risk the reputation of the company and billions of dollars in business over a $50 oil change.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I remember that one and that was hilarious, a classic.
Good luck tomorrow. I thought they should make that drink chocolate mocha flavor....then it would be more tolerable. Drinking that stuff is the hard part, the rest is easy.
I do remember fantasizing about all the food I would be eating after it all, just to celebrate. The problem was, after all that, I didn't feel like eating anything until the next day. By then I didn't care any more.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
All cars will have these same features in a few years. It's the same as tire air pressure monitors. At some point, you have to rely on the technology.
You can call it smug, I don't know, to me these are improvements made for today's driver. Today's driver doesn't want to check the oil or their tires every week....like we were supposed to do a few years ago. Car companies make cars so they are easier to maintain....all cars will have these features, and more, in a few years.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Let's assume it costs BMW about $100.00 for an oil and filter change, which includes $60.00 for what they have to pay for labor (the most expensive part of the oil change) and the usual inspections required at each oil change. Let's say they sell 350,000 cars and SUV's in the US. Now multiply that by the $100 and you end up with a tidy sum. So if they can save one or 2 oil changes per car over the 4 years, it isn't "peanuts" is it?
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
I love gadgets and technology, but I think Honda went too far (Sorry Craig.)
The car came with a regular key. The ignition switch was on the right side -- the same as any car. You had to turn it all the way to the right AND THEN you had to use your left hand to push a button that said "start engine" that was located to the left of the steering wheel.
So to turn on the car, you had to use both hands. Totally stupid.
:sick:
However, Americans seem to be much less tight with their money when it comes to services. Eating out, entertainment - and repairs/maintenance. Put too high price on a product in a store and they walk away, but they can't get enough extended warranties, insurance, all those "peace of mind" products. When I think about it, it is not surprising. This is service-based economy. Most people work by providing some kind of service. So there may be a feeling, whether conscious or not, that cutting out services is bad karma or something, because we all depend on it. When a guy tells you you have to check yourself four times a year, who are you to question this judgment. Same with your mechanical items, whether in the house or vehicle. Everybody also knows somebody with a bad case of blown engine, broken AC, etc. which validates that "feeling" that I have to do something before it gets me. It doesn't cost that much to change oil, power steering fluid, transmission fluid, surely it's cheaper than a new one - so why not do it? Intuitively sounds logical, "better safe than sorry". But really is it? How many people we know actually did not have any problems? What is real percentage of those problems amongst reliable cars. How many of those problematic cars were actually due to poor maintenance, not defects? All we know are some "massaged" statistics salesmen show us when they want us to purchase "gold plus platinum with iridium plating" service protection plan. The statistic is usually presented in such a way that one should be scared to sit in a chair, let alone leave a house or operate heavy machinery.
There are other factors related to service on machinery. Every time any machine is open, something can go wrong, something can be broken, put together incorrectly. There is even a risk of dishonest service provider telling you your machine is broken, even if it's not (I experienced that first hand on my house AC - the "tuneup" technician told me I had a leak, but eight months later it is still going strong).
I'm not against maintenance, not at all - but the more I think about it, the more I conclude I also let myself in the past to get scared by the service industry into "do this or else". To me, BMWs 16 thousand mile recommendation is a breath of fresh air. Here is one company that broke that circle of "do it every 3 months" - probably took them some time to stand up to their own dealers. The initial motivation might as well be related to minimizing expense due to their paid maintenance program - many good things start in attempt to save money. But I'm pretty sure they did not just cut the numbers without doing any research or development, just because they could save on the service. I suspect the research showed they could run it on 20-25 thousand miles and failure rates were still within decent parameters.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
You'll be a bit sore around your abdomen after, but its really not bad. You're in the midst of the worst part. Good luck and hope everything comes back negative!
I'd guess maybe 1% of used BMWs on dealer lots have over 100,000 miles on them; BMW doesn't care a bit about those cars. And BMW sells an extended warranty that goes past 100,000 miles? News to me.
Seriously, BMW is more interested in selling cars than sticking to their roots.
Agreed. That's why they don't build many real BMWs anymore.
Try driving a 2013 328 or 335, light steering and softer ride. No dipstick, less time spent servicing the car, are what todays buyers want.
How do you say "Boring soft car" in German? As I said previously, 99.99999% of new BMW buyers are badge hounds- NOT enthusiasts.
I am not sure the coolant is the same or what changes have been made to make it last longer, but those are changes that get engineered into the new models.
BMW decides coolant was a lifetime fill around 2004, but the coolant remained the same the same(it's G0-5, a "Hybrid OAT"); and if anyone can tell me what mechanical changes were made to increase coolant life from 48 months to infinity, please let me know.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Abamike's post about the amount of money they save says it all.
I also would never let a car go 15k without a change of oil. If I owned a BMW I would pay for my oil changes at 7500 miles and let them pick up the tab at 15k.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
Are you in Israel on a vacation or work related?
btw...that starter system sounds weird.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Do they want their cars to be worthless after 100K miles? That would devalue the whole product.
It seems technology moves forward but people find it hard to give up old habits.
From MSN - Top 10 Car Maintenance Mistakes
Oil Change Timing
Oil changes every 3,000 miles used to be required jobs, just like cleaning the accumulated fuzz from record player needles or defrosting freezers. Today, advances in engine design and lubricants make oil changes something to be done when the schedule calls for it, not when granddad says it's time. Some cars call for 5,000-mile change intervals, some up to 15,000-mile stints. Others have a variable timer. Follow the schedule and use the oil called for by the manufacturer.
MSN - Top 10 Car Maintenance Mistakes
The coolant might be the same but the way the car uses the coolant may differ. For example, a completely sealed system may not get contaminated, similar to transmission fluid - have a life of 100K.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Oil changes....I doubt the debate here is going to change any of our minds regarding their intervals. I don't have any issues changing the oil in mine (on BMW's dime) every year (or about 10K miles). Then again, I'm one of those who won't keep mine past the warranty period (if that long). Why? Same reasons everyone else says.....something goes sideways and I start staring at a $2K bill to fix this or that, and tie up my car for a week or more, I'm not going to be happy with that BMW. And, the likelihood of that happening is probably around 50-50 after the warranty expires. I don't like extended warranties, either. Every time I've bought one, I never used it. Every time I didn't buy one, I needed it.
I do have a theory about used BMWs. I think the only ones you find with high mileage for sale, won't be at the BMW dealers, but the secondary lots, who specialize in old, used up, lux iron. We've all seen them in each city....the lots have 80K, 90K, 100K+ mile lux cars on their lots. You want to get into the brand, but can't/won't pay the cost of admission for a new, or CPO used one, go to these lots.
Those are also the places you'll find Range/Land Rovers (where Craig's warnings about RR maintenance and reliability goes unheeded), old Jags, high mileage Mercedes....mostly very used European marks.
Just my observations that have absolutely no scientific basis.
For the record, as bad of a rap as U.S. brands get, I see more 15-20 year old Chevies and Fords on the roads, still running, than I do 20 year old Jaguars, or Land Rovers, or even Audis/BMWs. While U.S. brands may not be the most reliable cars when you first get them, they do tend to have the longevity feature nailed.
That being said, the longevity crown has to go to Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus. Those old cars are still all over the road.
once you get into the 120s (I was looking for about 70-80 max) you were into very sketchy BHPH territory.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I don't think 99.999% are badgehounds, I do think there are a large percentage of people who like the quality and ambience of a European car. There are subtle differences, not saying necessarily better, just different.
A certain amount of steering control, a ride that communicates the road, styling, comfort, engineering are reasons people choose BMWs. Of course some people choose the car for the nameplate.
BMW is walking a fine line these days, trying to please the enthusiasts, while trying to sell to the widest possible range of customers. They seem to be succeeding at the latter, but, not so much the former. But, when you have to pay the bills, you do what you have to do.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
You mean like the sizable percentage of BMW owners who believe their car is FWD?
A certain amount of steering control, a ride that communicates the road, styling, comfort, engineering are reasons people choose BMWs.
Perhaps like the BMW "enthusiast" I met at the F30 launch who said, "When I get in my car I don't want to have to do anything." These owners confuse steering effort with feel, and need healthy doses of built-in understeer to stay out of the weeds. Yes, real car buffs...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
So BMW hasn't found a way to require a BMW special part to be able to add oil to your engine? That surely will be next. It will be a real money maker: you have to buy the special $89.99 part to use to add oil or take ot back to your BMW dealer to get the special superduper BMW only oil added by them. :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It is peanuts compared to millions of cars seizing up when they reach the 100K mile mark. If that happened the value of used bmws would drop a lot more than the amount of a $100 oil change.
Now we are hearing they make the coolant last 100K miles so they don't have to replace that so often. But, if they said the coolant only lasts for 4 years or 48K miles, they could sell you more coolant at say 60K miles if they wanted to (it would make up for that one oil change).
Every one is looking for conspiracy theories these days. If oil changes were necessary at 10K miles why wouldn't the oil companies be warning us to change our oil more frequently? They could make a bundle using scare tactics...but they don't, because they don't have a case.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
One thing I am sure BMW knows is that people in business clothes or ladies who are dressed up don't want to be messing around with oil. That's one reason they realize people want fewer oil changes.
You actually have a good idea there. A special tank to hold oil, like the washer fluid reservoir. When you need more you just press a button and the oil gets squirted into the engine.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Exactly, today's BMW buyers are predominantly poseurs who don't even want to be reminded that their car has an engine.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
There is a considerable export industry of used luxury cars (and I don't mean thieves - real legitimate exports). US-market BMWs, Benzes and Audis cost 40-60% of those sold in Europe or other markets (and are often better equipped). Moreover, loss of value in the US is much more rapid than in those markets, making a 5-year old luxury car a very lucrative export product to places like Eastern Europe (perhaps now less than in the past), Africa, Latin America, etc. I believe a lot of those go overseas and that's why you don't see them here.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Probably the most surprising (and literally the biggest U.S. export) is the Cadillac Escalade. Seems like no matter what country I travel to, I always see several Escalades during my stay. Weird...especially given than foreign roads tend to be smaller than they are here. Plus, the cities are more congested, gasoline is higher, driving restrictions exist, and parking is next to non-existent.
Yet, there they are in all their splendor......Cadillac Escalades!
anyway, I asked, and they use a synthetic blend. And the schedule is 7,500 miles or 1 year, whichever comes first. Should be time for us, but 7,500 is about as long as I would have gone anyway (and might do 6K if we get there before 1 year).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
It definitely should be changed at the end of one year no matter what the mileage is. You can be extra safe and do it at 6K or even 3K, but from what I am reading, your Volvo should go to 7500K without any problem, and you would save yourself some money and the environment some oil.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
A survey? Here you go!
Look, I wish the marque wasn't being taken over by non-enthusiasts, but that's the sad and sorry truth. I certainly don't think a BMW owner has to be able to field-strip every drivetrain component to be considered an enthusiast, but -in my experience- the vast majority of new BMW buyers only care about the emblem on the hood.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Firefighter--
Yup, the Go-lightly is exactly what they gave me and as you said the procedure was a piece of cake compared to the downing of 135 ounces of that stuff over 4 hours. Whatever was in the IV I was out almost instantly and the next thing I knew I was back in the pre-procedure room. Supposedly, unless there is some obvious change in my habits or cast-offs, they don't need to see me for 10 years. Do you have some family history that merits the biennial exams?
Isn't propofyl what Michael Jackson OD on? If that's what they gave me I can see why he wanted it as a sedative. The only similar instantaneous lights-out experience I can compare to it are my two head injuries (not recommended). Even what they gave me for oral surgery wasn't as quick acting.
Gogiboy
RB--
I know that Schlaff is German for flabby or flaccid, both of which might fit the car and, dare I say, some of the drivers--at least the ones not taking Viagra or working out. :P disclaimer: the previous statement does not apply to any of the well-endowed and extremely virile members of this forum whether they be from Canada, Kentucky or elsewhere.
Although most of jmonroe's colleagues were young women in search of the bimmer badge, he might have affected a bad Austrian accent like Hans and Franz and called them Schlaffhunds (flabhounds), which might be roughly equivalent to the anglicized girly-man insult hurled by muscle men at those of us not on the juice and regularly pumping iron.
Gogiboy
GG--
Good point, although in my area some of that could be accounted for by the much larger volume of US cars--and especially trucks--being sold in the first place.
I would also think as a matter of simple economics that we may see fewer luxury cars simply because it is much less expensive for the middle income American to keep, say, an 8-year old Ford Taurus on the road than an 8-year old BMW 5 series. And then one has to consider who is buying 5-10 year old vehicles in the first place. Undoubtedly a small percentage could buy new, but the vast majority are in circumstances where they couldn't possibly have bought new, however sufficient depreciation has made what would have been an unobtainable vehicle suddenly accessible. I also think that there is always a segment of purchasers who will equate luxury with reliability (it costs a lot so it must be made to last), only to find themselves way over their heads with expensive repair bills.
Although this is an extreme example, I mentioned that a father of a student gave me a ride in his Lamborghini Gallarado. I think he said a "typical" brake job for that car was $3500. I'm guessing some of those lusting for the badge aren't taking into consideration how much more it will cost to keep those cars on the road once outside of the manufacturer''s warranty.
Gogiboy
I know my BMW dealer is trying to convince those who pay for their own maintenance that a BMW dealer oil change "ONLY" costs ~$70-$80 (as if that's some sort of deal). So, maybe they are appealing to the lux buyer as being at least a smidge frugal.
I would hope a Lambo owner knows what he or she is in for with maintenance costs.
I'm sure there are some around, but I wouldn't even know who would be qualified to work on a Lambo in my town. I know there aren't any dealers.....at least no "new" dealers.
How was your trip? Were you touring or visiting somewhere specifically?
I was there for work. I was in Haifa. I did do a bit of sightseeing, but I came straight back because of the Holiday here. I usually spend a few extra days there or stop by on the way back.
I think that one reason for that perceived longevity is that the Asian and American automakers assume their vehicles will be abused while most European manufacturers assume(or at least used to assume) that their products will be maintained properly.
For example, I'll sometimes hear a BMW owner complain about having to replace an ABS control unit(or other hydraulic brake components) on an E36 or E46 3er. When I ask when the brake fluid was last changed I get the classic "deer in the headlights" vacant stare.
And as gogiboy said, lots of dimwits buy a BMW 750, a M-B S500 or Porsche 9xx for @$10,000 or less without considering the fact that these cars cost $60,000 or more new- and that repairs will likely be proportionate to the original MSRP- not the purchase price.
For instance, I was at my indie shop several years ago when a guy brought in a 944 with a front brake pad that was almost worn down to the rivets; I actually heard him ask if the shop could just replace the pads on that wheel, as he didn't have enough money to do both front wheels.
In my case, out of the 10 BMWs I've owned since 1983, only one has suffered an expensive mechanical failure(the transfer case and rear driveshaft in the 2004 X3 at 136,000 miles). Up to that point unscheduled repair costs had averaged out to $20 per month over the 77 months we had owned the truck. Including the major repair in June still puts the number at just $67 per month. Considering the fact that the car has been paid off since June 2007 -and noting that the average monthly car payment is $300 to $400- I think I'm coming out way, WAY ahead of the game. Of course I also follow the maintenance schedule BMW used before they started picking up the tab... :P
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Once again driver doesn't disappoint. That's the one.
The starter was def. weird. Also, the door handles for the passenger doors were in the window sill. Both of them were black, which made it very hard to see.
I was there for work, mainly in Haifa right on the coast. Much better view than from my office.
That's more than a D9 CAT costs for brakes. I'll stay with my Ford.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
Just buy an "M" package and let the 80% of the non-enthusiasts enjoy their bmws too.....only, for different reasons.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
But you only do the oil change every 15000 miles, might be cheaper than doing an American car every 5000 or even 7500 miles.
Actually, when you are talking longevity, a much larger percentage of Luxury brands are on the road after 15 to 20 years. Less than 30% of regular brands (Except Toyota was 35% and Honda 40%) and over 70% for Mercedes, Lexus and Porche, 66% for BMW. Toyotas, and Hondas do well too, but around 35 to 40%.
Here's a chart; lCars still on the road after 25 years
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
In some countries they don't seem to care about these things...just make the car as practical and at the lowest price possible. In North America we like to be pampered much more.
What are the big sellers in Israel. When I was there about 12 years ago I was surprised by the number of Mercedes taxi cabs, and they started using quite a few Passats too. But most people drove pretty basic Toyotas and Hondas. Cars at that time cost about 3X what they do here.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Toyotas, Hondas, and Hyundais were the big sellers. Mainly the smaller car segment. After that, you have a few Fords (Fiesta, Focus,) and very little European small cars (VW, Skoda, Peugot.)
As for luxury cars, few Mercedes, some BMW, and Audis. I saw one Lexus.
I was surprised by the number of Jeep Wranglers. It could be that I noticed them more since I bought one, but I don't remember seeing so many in the past.
Taxis are now small cars. I didn't see any Mercedes ones.
And just like GG said, I did see a couple of Escalades.
It may or may not be similar to the United States.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Some of you guys are pretty savvy regarding maintenance and was wondering if you had any suggestions about the gasolines I should be using as well as suggestions for specific additives to keep the injectors clean and operating at top efficiency.
I try to kick it down every so often to build up pressures so the injectors perform well, but I wonder if that is a waste of gasoline. I try to get the RPM's up to 4000+ when I can, but not every day, obviously.
Any input?
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
So if it's the valves that seem to take the brunt of the stress in these types of engines, perhaps it's more than just a high quality gasoline that is needed - one would need a high quality oil as well! I don't know what brand of oil Lexus recommends since I won't be due for an oil change until March or April of next year, but it is full synthetic.
Techron is an additive in Chevron gasoline, but is Techron available as a separate additive? What about STP gas treatment or Gumout gas treatment? Worth the cost or not?
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
I thought Toyota's dual system, which uses port injection part of the time, would help keep the valves clean.
Techron is the best- no contest. I put a 20 oz. bottle in the fuel tanks of my BMWs every 3000 miles. And I still use a Top Tier fuel. The problem is that in pure DI engines the intake valves never see any fuel spray...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
We need another car, so one or the other is going to get one.
I'll just stay home and have the salesperson call me if they find one they like.
My Dad & my best friend are both on their 2nd LTZ Tahoes. If I needed a full sized, 4WD, SUV, I probably wouldn't look anywhere else. Same thing if I needed a full sized pickup truck, I'd head straight for a Silverado.
V8 powered, RWD, drop dead gorgeous, sports car? I'll take a Corvette. Hands down.
I'd buy a Jeep Grand Cherokee in a heartbeat. My sister's loaded up Explorer XLT is extremely luxurious and very well appointed. I think Wranglers are awesome & if I could bring myself to own 2 vehicles that average high teens in the MPG dept, I'd buy one.
For my next car (when the lease is up on my BMW in 2 years), I'm going to strongly consider a Ford Focus hatch along with a SkyActive Mazda 3 & a Honda Fit Sport.
In fact, I'd buy a domestic over any VW product.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
It's definitely the EGR and PCV; most people think that the PCV is the primary offender.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive