Stories from the Sales Frontlines

mako1a

I have sent an email to Westjet customer service.

Remember a few years back, the steward that flipped his lid and opened the slide escape and quit as he was exiting the plane?

I helped make that happen. We arrived in Dallas and were taxiing to the gate. We had to stop a minute then proceed at maybe 1 MPH and go maybe 50 feet. He said remain seated and seat belts on. Well, I had already taken mine off. He said "you have to put your seatbelt back on" I did, then maybe 10 feet from the gate we stopped again so I took it off again. He got all huffy so I played the part. Off-On-Off-On. Right as he was about to run crying to the pilot I put it on and began to read a book. The guy was about to break down in tears. He surely needed a tour with the military to get him to learn how to chill under fire.

In 2001 I was traveling a lot. I had two more years till retiring. As a senior guy I was able to trade all my trips to various places for all the trips to Florida. Mostly Jacsonville. I bought a Corvette which I used for the next two years making the 9 hour 15 minute trip to JAX. Never flew again and never will. I would have been one of those people arrested by the airline [non-permissible content removed]. I find the chicken s*#* airline rules appalling.

abacomike

Today, I had an opportunity to drive a Mercedes CLS550 for the day as part of a special program to interest owners to upgrade to that model. I remember not buying one because it was not very comfortable compared to the E350 - my head hit the sunroof and my derrière was not as comfortable. The only reason I did it was to feel the power of the V8 engine as well as to try out the stop-go feature.

The engine was extremely spirited, but at fuel economy hovering at about 23 highway, this was not for me in the future.

But that "stop-go" feature was awful! When you come to a red light and keep your foot on the brake, the engine shuts down, but you still have air-flow with the fans on and A/C on as well as power steering since it is electric power steering and runs off the battery. As soon as you release the brake pedal, the car starts up automatically again in drive and you are off!

Did not like the constant on and off in traffic. Car rides nicely, but the interior is too confining and rear seat room is almost non-existent.

Not a car I would consider owning.

Saw some pictures of the 2014 E Class sedan - they have changed the front lights - they did a nice job on the front end, but they are redesigning the E Class for 2015, and I am sure those headlight changes (all LED by the way) will be on the 2015. Supposed to get a look at the 2015 in early January, 2014.

driver100

. Your BMW probably has something similar to Ford's SYNC.

I think it does. I will ask my IT guy about it. That could have some advantages, at least they will be songs I like.

I know the Audi has a place for a little memory card you can use for that purpose. Not sure about the 535er.

If you can do that memory with random it sounds like it may work for me.

graphicguy

Two memory card slots in Audi's MMI. I use both slots. Years ago I bought one of those turntables that turned my vinyl into digi files. I copied those files onto the memore cards. In addition, I've amassed a sizable CD, iTunes and MP3 collection, which also go onto the memory cards. As memory cards hold more and more, I really can't see a time that I could possibly fill them (says the man who thought he'd never fill a 100GB hard drive).

I had XM only in my TL. To me, it sounded better than Sirius. HD radio sounds better than both. But, I find myself playing my own music, or Pandora almost exclusively these days, severely reducing my want for Sirius/XM.

I can install an entire 11.2 home theater system, complete with wiring in the walls, projector and 100" screen. Try to get me to mess with the natural gas, and water combination to remove and old water heater, and install a new one? Not happening.

oldfarmer50

"...I find the chicken s*#* airline rules appalling..."

Ha ha a troublemaker after my own heart!

explorerx4

I have a couple of SIRIUS subscriptions and really enjoy them.
Probably adding a third one in about 4 months when the wife's free trial runs out on her Escape.
It's great for listening to sports on trips and I like that they have a DJ to provide a human element.
When we bought our high efficiency washer/dryer combo (there's no such thing as a high efficiency dryer), Lowes wanted over $160 to hook up the gas dryer. I did it myself, but there is no way I would attempt a gas water heater.
My wife's new Escape has HD radio, which she likes.

imidazol97

>I went to download.com

http://www.filehippo.com/download_malwarebytes_anti_malware/

Use this safe source. IIRC, when I was searching for software, download.com or cnet.com kept wanting to install a downloader instead of giving me the direct file. Then it installed extra programs and toolbars on my computer.

Run uninstall to get rid of the first copy of Antimalwarebytes. Check the list of installed programs in that control panel to see how many toolbars or other programs are there that may be malware that got installed and check the name on google to see what they are.

roadburner

I can install an entire 11.2 home theater system, complete with wiring in the walls, projector and 100" screen. Try to get me to mess with the natural gas, and water combination to remove and old water heater, and install a new one? Not happening.

My sentiments exactly!

driver100

I find the chicken s*#* airline rules appalling.

All these stupid rules and regulations are enough to put anyone off of flying. We arrived about an hour and 45 minutes before our flight to Florida. By the time we waited, to get our boarding pass (couldn't do it online with the dog), then waited in line for U.S. Customs, then another line to be scanned, we had 10 minutes to run for our plane, on an empty stomach.

I have come to hate flying, not so much the flight, it's the hassle.

driver100

I remember not buying one because it was not very comfortable compared to the E350

I know what you mean. We tried sitting in a Passat CC, looks like a baby CLS550. Very uncomfortable, small seats, low roof, small windows. It looks jazzy, and probably is a great handling car. But, just not practical. Probably costs about $8000 more than the Passat SE we did buy, but, I wonder, in 5 years from now will the jazzy look of the CC be dated. Is it a fad look.

But that "stop-go" feature was awful!

I find it isn't a big deal, I just disarm it as soon as I start the car. I wish off was the default though. I do use it if I come up to a train, or a long light. I think it can save fuel, but it is probably harder on the engine. Like you, I don't have to put the key in, I start the car with the button start, (in my case open the garage door, press the multi-media screen to obey the rules about using navigation, then press the stop feature to be off, then put the car into drive......select a radio station, and go........

driver100

Interior is nice, but small;

graphicguy

explorer....for some reason, the Sirious in my GF's car, as well as mine, sounds like the broadcast is coming from the bottom of a barrel. While XM wasn't nearly as bad, terrestrial HD broadcasts sound the best. That said, terrestrial stations still have that age old buggaboo of getting lost when you get past about a 50 mile radius of their towers. Further, it seems they have a tendency to flutter back and forth between analog and digital signals, making the broadcasts annoying.

So, I keep downloading podcasts to listen to, listen to music either on my memory cards, or stream music from my iPhone from Pandora, through the car's stereo.

I know some are devotees of satellite programming, like Howard Stern, but I've never been a fan. Sports I can get from local stations. So, I let SAT subscription lapse unless they offer me a huge deal (mainly because I want real time traffic updates). I think the last one I got on the BMW was $77/year. Don't know what we'll do on the S4. I think it's trial period is up at the end of the year.

Craig....I'm pretty much on the same page as you when it comes to things like water heaters. If they show an inkling of a problem, it's replaced. Don't want to be knee deep in water where my Home Theater resides in the basement/rec room. These keep getting smaller. Like you, I've got a 50 gal for two people. I never run out of hot water. But, the one that was just installed is about 20% smaller than the 50 gal that was replaced. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing. Bradford White was $750 all in, including haul away of the old one. It replaced a 12 year old Rheem. Not sure there's a ton of difference in water heaters. Pretty simple....a tank that fills with water, heated with a gas flame, that starts with an electric ignitor. Easy-Peasy!

RB...been toying with doing a 3D upgrade. I keep going back and forth. The 3D content I've seen is stunning (i.e. Avatar). That said, I still don't think it will ever evolve from being a niche. Thoughts?

graphicguy

driver.....Boy, you have shown better restraint than I would have. I understand that causing any sort of ruckus on a plane usually doesn't go well. However, I think the airlines, and particularly the TSA, have overstepped their boundaries in general.

I'm working on my 2nd million miles flown with Delta, and have a million miles on American. That doesn't matter, but I have flown a lot. I understood the need for TSA a decade ago. However, that agency (like all gov't agencies) has become over bloated and feeds on the expansion of the archaic rules that keeps them drawing $$$$$$$$ from taxpayers. The TSA could be 1/3 the size they are, trim back their rules, and be as effective (maybe even more effective) than they are today.

Airlines get carte blanche given that once they started gobbling each other up, customer service went on a steep downward spiral, while fares went up. As you point out, you challenge them, you end up being detained, or worse. It's all getapo-ish.

I've written to the TSA, and the different airlines, over and over. They pay lip service, acknowledging the receipt of my communication, but they really don't care.

They no longer exist to protect us. But, they now exist to only justify their own existence (and draw from the public trough).

As my late Father would have said..."the TSA and airlines are too big for their britches."

I long for the day that the U.S. has high speed rail, coast-to-coast...the kind found in Europe and Japan. Won't happen in my lifetime, though.

driver100

.Boy, you have shown better restraint than I would have. I understand that causing any sort of ruckus on a plane usually doesn't go well

Thanks, I am glad I am not the only one who feels this way. I wrote to the airline on Friday morning, haven't heard back yet. It would be nice if they confirmed receipt of my complaint, and said something like, "We will get back to you sometime in the not too distant future".

I'll let you know what they say, if anything.

I would almost prefer to drive to Florida not to put up with all the nonsense.

mako1a

Wow Driver, that's a heck of a nice looking car. When you said VW I got lost thinking of my last experience with a girlfriend's VW from the 60s with no heat to speak of and generally just a POS. I like the interior colors with the 2 tone. It almost looks like J Monroe's Genny. VW has come a long way. Congrats.

driver100

, that's a heck of a nice looking car.

Thanks, but something got lost in the translation. That is one we didn't buy, though did consider a used one. We are always taking other people places in Florida (I guess we are the youngsters) so the C.C. model pictured is just too small. I agree, it is gorgeous inside, and the exterior is nice too, looks like a baby Maybach.

Ours looks almost like this:


Not nearly as glamourous as a CC, but, it is alot more comfortable. I could hardly get in and out of a CC, and the backseat is really for kids.

Interior, of "our" Passat, looks like this;


I know what you mean about the images VW has, but, that has really changed. The Audi too, it isn't as slick as a BMW, but it has more simple charm.

mako1a

Ours looks almost like this: A lot of similarities to the Ford Fusion.

Glad you clarified because the white interior shot of the one I commented on sure looked to be an automatic and after all the talk I knew that couldn't be.
Still a nice looking car. I like the looks of the new Fusion as well.

mako1a

I hear a lot about cars having leather seats (or seating surfaces) and I'm wondering if it's true.

I have felt some nice soft leather in Buicks and Caddys, but a guy I used to work with said it's all bunk. He claims most of it was pleather. I doubted him until MB admitted theirs was fake. Didn't even feel like leather and indeed it wasn't.

Now I wonder if my Mustang has real leather or some sort of synthetic vinyleather composite.

Now this is what I expect to see when leather is mentioned and it truly is real Leather.

tjc78

MB for years had a vinyl they called "MB Tex" it holds up extremely well and many mistake it for leather.

As for most cars, if they have a leather interior it is most likely NOT all leather. The middle of the seat bottom and back will be leather, but the sides and back will be vinyl.

My Buick is that way. You can clearly see the difference in materials when up close. The leather is also heavily processed and dyed, so it's color is consistent. This can also make it hard to tell from vinyl.

Best way to test it, is to "pinch" it with your fingers. Vinyl is very thin, the leather is much thicker and you can feel the difference.

abacomike

MB for years had a vinyl they called "MB Tex" it holds up extremely well and many mistake it for leather.

tjc, they still use MBtex as standard seat covering in all of their lower priced cars and SUV's. it is still standard on the E Class. I had that interior in "most" of the E350's I've owned with the exception of my 2012 and 2013. It looks and feels like leather and wears extremely well.

In my car, the front and rear seats and door panels are all covered in natural grain leather. I really don't notice the difference - unfortunately the leather color I now have (saddle color) is not available on MBtex. It's called "natural beige leather" but is not beige. They have an almond which is beige, but I prefer the darker saddle color as it does not show the grime and dirt as does the almond and light gray. I had black in the 2012, but found it a little too hot in the summer. Also, leather tends to "breathe" where the MBtex does not.

IMHO, the MBtex is preferable to the leather in terms of wear and tear.

robr2

IMHO, the MBtex is preferable to the leather in terms of wear and tear.

As is the VW Leatherette. My 7.5 year old Passat with it shows no wear whatsoever.

driver100

Still a nice looking car. I like the looks of the new Fusion as well.

I liked the Fusion when I first saw the new 2013 model...but, since I have seen them on the road I am not so sure.




I am a fan of Fusions though, and I like the last design better.




I think what people said about leather seats was true, they use it on the centre parts and use vinyl on the sides and back. MB leather is fine, but, if they can use real leather in more economical cars, it makes you wonder why MB doesn't just throw in the real stuff in a premium car.

abacomike

I think what people said about leather seats was true, they use it on the centre parts and use vinyl on the sides and back. MB leather is fine, but, if they can use real leather in more economical cars, it makes you wonder why MB doesn't just throw in the real stuff in a premium car.

They do, *driver, just not in all models. Leather is a $1620 option in the E Class. The leather is is inserted in the door panels and the entire seat face, front and back. It is also optional on the C, ML, GLK and I believe the SLK. It is standard on the S Class sedan and coupe (CL), SL, CLS, and the rest. If you get the E550, leather is standard and I believe standard on the E350 convertible.

I agree that leather should be standard on all Mercedes Benz vehicles. Leather was optional on my BMW's, but I don't know if they've made it a standard feature - I still think it is part of a pkg or optional as a stand alone feature.

But, the quality of their MB TEX is outstanding and many people prefer that to leather - I know I do - bit it was not available on the color I wanted - it only comes in leather.

nyccarguy

My wife's former 2007 BMW X3 had black leatherette. It looked brand new when I turned it in with 46,000 + miles on the odometer after 3 years & 2 kids. Stains? Cleaned them with Windex. Her water broke on the way to the hospital on the front passenger seat, you'd never know it.

My best friend's wife had an '09 E350 (last year of the oval headlights) 4Matic. White with black MB Text. He said if the sun was beating in the car at all or if he drove it for more than an hour, it made his back sweat.

People also have to realize that there are different grades of leather. The optional leather on an MB or a BMW is much higher quality than that of a high level Japanese or Korean car that costs tens of thousands of dollars less & has standard leather.

abacomike

My best friend's wife had an '09 E350 (last year of the oval headlights) 4Matic. White with black MB Text. He said if the sun was beating in the car at all or if he drove it for more than an hour, it made his back sweat.

Yes, nyc, vinyl seats do not "breathe" like leather does. As for quality, the leather in the GS350 I had was truly high quality leather just like my E350. The Lexus had more leather surface in it and felt like a "belting" leather like in the Mercedes. I've had Cadillacs and Buicks and Pontiacs and Lincoln's with leather, but the thickness of the leather was not as thick and firm as the German cars I have owned with leather.

stickguy

our new RDX has perforated leather. A first for me. It will be interesting to see if I notice a difference in the hot weather.

explorerx4

I park my car(SUV) facing West in the winter to get the late day sun.
In the summer, I park it facing East to avoid the late day sun. :shades:

mako1a

RDX has perforated leather. You may want to read the manual. It may have Air Conditioned seats. My Avalon had that and it was super. I was at an outside event getting overheated on a 90 deg day. Went into the Avalon with A/C (vents and seats) on max for 20 minutes and came out like a brand new guy front and back.

driver100

Some employees are reporting Budget car rentals in Vancouver Canada were ripping off customers. Charging more for real and phony repairs, overcharging for gas, selling insurance that wasn't needed. If people couldn't speak English they would overcharge for rentals, in one case $4000 to rent a car for one week.

The owner of the franchise owns 7 outlets including the airport location. He is a multi-millionaire and will be investigated by the RCMP.

exclusive Budget Rent a Car fraud claims probed by RCMP

stickguy

nope. No AC. Just lots of little holes.

stickguy

I hate budget. Had a big fight with them a few years ago. I rented in Orlando (airport) and when I dropped the car off (it was late) they told me the computer was not printing, so they had to send me the receipt (I normally insist on getting it before I leave).

Well, when the bill came, I got charged something like $40 for gas, even though I filled up right before the airport. I think once I looked at all the documentation that the car had a bunch more miles on it too. So, it seems that they were running a scam, basically not returning the car, and driving it around for a while.

what a pain having to get the gas receipt (of course the dumb pump did not have a working printer). Then submitting the documentation twice. Finally coerced them into refunding the extra charge. Probably not worth the time I invested, but it had become a matter or principal by then!

nyccarguy

Another LONG sales story. Literally. Friends of ours have 2 cars, an '11 Pilot EXL & an '05 Accord V6 coupe. They leased the Pilot pretty much on the same day we bought ours. They have one little girl & 1 on the way. The husband was asking me about what they should get to replace his aging (160,000 + mile) Accord Coupe. I tell him to look at the Mazda 3 SkyActiv 5 Door, Accord LX sedan, Camry SE sedan, Imprezza 5 Door. I know they want, good on gas & big enough for 2 car seats. Most of what I suggested can be had for the low $20K range. They were thinking of leasing to "keep payments low."

Wife's iPhone dings just a little while ago: "Hey Rebecca, tell Bradd we just got the Accord EXV6 in Blue. Financed for 84 months..."

I just don't get it! These are intelligent people. There is no need to finance a car for 7 years! You want a lower payment? I get that. Who doesn't? Buy an Accord LX or Accord Sport (4cyls) for thousands less & take out a normal 5 year loan.

stickguy

I about had a stroke going 5 years on the RDX that my wife had to have (I guess she deserves something for putting up with me). Normally 3 years is the max, and I usually don't have a payment at all (though won't be there again for a while!)

7 years though, that is obscene. and from what I have read, the 4 cyl is way more than enough for an Accord now.

nyccarguy

I'm with you stickguy. I'm ok with taking out 60 month loans to buys cars (not happy with it, wish I could write check. I look forward to May 2016 when I mail in my last Pilot payment.

billy3554

With low interest rates there really is no significant difference between a 60 month or an 84 month loan. Always, an auto loan can be paid off at a faster pace, there are no prepayment penalties.

However, if cash were to become an issue during the life of the loan, the lower required payment inherent in a longer term loan can be valuable.

Also, paying off an 84 month loan at a faster pace allows the payments to be made in advance, another advantage if cash becomes an issue during the repayment period. It is always nice to be in a position to be able to skip a few payments if needed.

People knowledgeable about finance understand these advantages.

Arguably, the only reason not to extend the life of an auto loan is if the interest rates are materially higher with a longer period loan.

driver100

we just got the Accord EXV6 in Blue. Financed for 84 months..."
I don't get it! I think some people just get used to living beyond their means and it becomes a way of life. When they retire, they will wonder why they haven't saved any money....and they will expect the government to look after them.

On the plus side, the Accord they traded in is 7 years old, so maybe the new one will be good until the financing ends, in 7 years.

The car will never be worth more than they owe on it, not a nice way to live.

driver100

With low interest rates there really is no significant difference between a 60 month or an 84 month loan.

Just an opinion, but, I think people who manage their money successfully show some restraint and have some discipline.

Having a bit of margin is OK in case of disaster, but, stretching payments to unrealistic levels could be asking for trouble....and the attitude probably extends to other purchases as well.

tjc78

With low interest rates there really is no significant difference between a 60 month or an 84 month loan

OK, lets see if that works out.

Quick Google and you can get a new car loan from a major bank @ 3.40%.

25K loan

5 years = $454x60 = 27240

7 years = $335x84 = 28140

A difference of $900. Actually not quite as bad as I thought, so you have a point. The problem is I just can't see financing for that long. IMHO unless it's a zero percent loan I could never see stretching it out past 5.

graphicguy

I must be getting old.....60 month loans, 72 month loans, 84 month loans? A car isn't a house. Just imagine in that 5th or 6th year, paying on a vehicle that drops a trans. On top of the car payment, there's a $1,200 check they have to write just to keep it on the road.

Personally, I love leather seats. And, I prefer leather over vinyl. Actually, I prefer cloth over vinyl. Leather vs "Leather-like" vinyl...as most point out, vinyl doesn't breath and is clammy feeling in the summer. Vinyl doesn't smell like leather, either. Vinyl smells....well.....like plastic. Leather does breath. Frankly, I haven't noticed a difference in the quality of leather between the BMW, the Audi or the TL. Maybe a difference between GM/Ford/Chryco leather and the Japanese and Germans. Not sure. I know the leather in my former Tahoe was pretty darn durable and wore well.

The S4 has leather on the areas outside of the actual seating and bolsters. The seats have suede like Alcantara (which I still can't figure out what that's made out of). My BMW has what seems to be thick leather. I'll have to look more closely to see where it ends and the vinyl begins. The one downside with it, the plane where my belt on my pants, as I get in and out, has rubbed away the grain on the drivers seat. It's actually very unsightly.

Dealer says that's a problem with all BMW leather seats. They'll replace the leather on it once no charge, but consider it normal wear and tear. Pretty unsightly on beige leather interior.

robr2

The seats have suede like Alcantara (which I still can't figure out what that's made out of).

According to wiki:

Alcantara is composed of about 68% polyester and 32% polyurethane giving increased durability and stain resistance.

It was invented by a Japanese chemical engineer back in the 70's.

Just goes to show you that with proper naming and marketing, anything can be sold.

oldfarmer50

I go to hit the "Forums" button to come here only to find it replaced by "what's hot". I pulled down the menu but because the new Twitter feature makes the page jump I couldn't get the "browse forums" thingy to work.

All this new stuff is makin us dinosaurs angry. :mad:

I may just decide to boycott this place and listen to my 8-track instead.

driver100

I may just decide to boycott this place and listen to my 8-track instead.

That's funny. I guess we are a demographic no one really wants any more.

oldfarmer50

"...7 years though, that is obscene..."

My wife almost had a second stroke when I told her I was financing the eclipse for 60 months. I couldn't make her understand that financing at 0% was a good thing. The car will be paid off in Feburary and she won't accept that we made thousands keeping that money in an investment. She says: "if you made so much put in on the table so I can see it" :confuse:

I bet the friends don't even know the rate on that 84 month loan.

driver100

she won't accept that we made thousands keeping that money in an investment.

What investment would that be? Not the DOW!

60 months is probably reasonable these days. People tend to keep their cars longer and people are stretched. But, most cars will last for 5 years reasonably well, and then if you need a new one you can start all over again.

I liked to get them paid off in 36 months, and then have a year or two with no payments.....or save that money to use to buy the next car.

mako1a

put in on the table so I can see it

Farmer, do like I did. I had a little side thing (car and tractor repair) going.

I put the cash in a cigar box with a rat trap on top of the money. When

she said "why are you wasting so much money on these old cars and tractors

I showed her the profits. To which she replied "is that trap loaded to spring"

She wasn't able to grab any loot. Of course the trap was set.

abacomike

My wife almost had a second stroke when I told her I was financing the eclipse for 60 months

I always take out a small loan on my Mercedes Benz purchases because:

1. Low interest rates for 60 months (2.39)
2. You usually get a $2000 incentive from Mercedes Benz Fin. On a new car financed with them again.
3. Builds credit rating scores.

I have a 60 month loan with MBF for $15,000 (the least they will finance with the low interest rate) which makes my payments $262 per month. When it comes time to purchase a new car, I get the $2000 incentive + the USAA $2000 below invoice which means I am buying a new Mercedes for $4000 below invoice.

So for me, it pays to have a minimum loan for the above reasons.

dino001

I just don't get it! These are intelligent people. There is no need to finance a car for 7 years!

I noticed that sometimes people have compartmentalized knowledge and are either not able or not willing to transfer skills acquired in their trade to their life. You sometimes hear those right or left wing nut rants about how education system is designed to manufacture helpless life cripples so privileged (politicians, bankers, industrialists, what not) can take advantage of them. I never give those rants much credence then I get across examples like this one and I start thinking perhaps this is real, because how else can you explain people with real trade skills involving math, exercising judgment every day at their workplace, yet making their financial decisions so moronic that it's beyond understanding. It must have something to do with conditioning.

There can also a level of exhaustion: I have to think at work so when I come back home don't demand from me more thinking. I want to be left alone and as long as some yahoo on TV or slick guy in suit tells me, $X per month is a great deal, that's all I need to know. :sick:

driver100

yet making their financial decisions so moronic that it's beyond understanding.

Good analysis but I don't think it is that complicated. Many people have not been taught money skills when they were growing up. What they do know, is when they want something they want it now, and they want it for a price that will suit their budget.

I was amazed when some of the car salespeople right on this form said a large percentage of car buyers care more about the monthly payment, than they do about the actual price of the car.

tjc78

said a large percentage of car buyers care more about the monthly payment, than they do about the actual price of the car.

I've known a few people who simply walk in and say I want a ***** and my budget is $400/month. Now, who knows what kind of deal they are getting but if it hits their budget they are happy.

cdnpinhead

Now, who knows what kind of deal they are getting but if it hits their budget they are happy.

Yeah, plus which they can vote, which helps explain quite a lot.