Stories from the Sales Frontlines

driver100

@abacomike said:Go in and ask them if they want you back as a customer, they have to prove it. That sets the tone for your position

Thanks, sounds good.

fushigi

I think Mitsu has pockets of popularity. I'm in the Chicago 'burbs and they seem to do well here. I see plenty of current model Outlanders, Outlander Sports, and Lancers as well as many recent models. Heck, the other day I saw two different Montero Sports still seeing active service and they haven't sold those for years.

But as a 2-time Mitsu owner perhaps my eyes subconsciously spot them more than others.

The rumors of Mitsu departing the NA market seem to come from everywhere except Mitsubishi themselves. They constantly reiterate how important the US market is to them. And don't forget that unlike the now-departed Suzuki Mitsu has a US manufacturing plant to help keep them anchored. World-wide Outlander Sport production is based in Illinois.

The salesman who sold me my '10 Outlander GT is still at my local dealership 4.5 years later so they must be doing something right to retain staff. The service writers haven't changed either; I see them about twice a year when I go in for oil changes.

Kirstie_H

Thanks for bringing us back around to cars, guys. We're all human and get carried away sometimes. Glad to see everyone wisely backing away from politics.

Kirstie_H

On another note...
I know the speed of these forums seems like a dream compared to the old platform, but this discussion is huge, and is affecting page loading times all over the forums. We are going to let it get to the 100k mark, since I promised we would let it get to 100k posts, but then we're going to have to re-start it.

We'd like to make the title a little more clear (and SEO-friendly) in the hopes that it may be inviting for current and former car salespeople to join in. Right now, there's nothing in the title that makes it clear it's about CAR sales. Any ideas? I saw something from @abacomike that sparked a thought - Stories from the Auto Showroom Floor?

js06gv

@Kirstie@Edmunds said:

We'd like to make the title a little more clear (and SEO-friendly) in the hopes that it may be inviting for current and former car salespeople to join in. Right now, there's nothing in the title that makes it clear it's about CAR sales. Any ideas? I saw something from abacomike that sparked a thought - Stories from the Auto Showroom Floor?

How about something more simple, such as "Dealership Sales Stories?"

sb55

@Kirstie@Edmunds said:
On another note...
I know the speed of these forums seems like a dream compared to the old platform, but this discussion is huge, and is affecting page loading times all over the forums. We are going to let it get to the 100k mark, since I promised we would let it get to 100k posts, but then we're going to have to re-start it.

We'd like to make the title a little more clear (and SEO-friendly) in the hopes that it may be inviting for current and former car salespeople to join in. Right now, there's nothing in the title that makes it clear it's about CAR sales. Any ideas? I saw something from abacomike that sparked a thought - Stories from the Auto Showroom Floor?

But also let non salesmen join in (somehow in the title). Newbies may not get it.

stickguy

just insert "car" in between The and Sales.

Stories from the car sales frontlines.

driver100

@Kirstie@Edmunds said:Stories from the Auto Showroom Floor?

We'd like to make the title a little more clear (and SEO-friendly) in the hopes that it may be inviting for current and former car salespeople to join in.

All sounds good, hope you warn us before the changeover so we can find out where we are.

Car Sales stories-the good and the bad.(and the ugly)

It probably needs the words "car", "sales", "stories" or similar words to get the idea across, but it needs a "hook" to generate interest.

Or "car stories, and almost everything else!"

fezo

"Go in and ask them if they want you back as a customer, they have to prove it. That sets the tone for your position - I'll buy, but only if you make me a deal I can't refuse! If I buy this time, remember I buy lots of cars!"

Excellent, Mike. Right on the nose.

I negotiated $2K off the price of my Mazda 6 wagon (at the time an 8 year old used car by Email. I made my offer and the dealer said we can work something out to which I replied you're too far away. This is what I'll pay. Say yes and I'll make the trip and if the car is as represented I'll take it. It was and we both left very happy.

oldfarmer50

@Kirstie@Edmunds said:
On another note...
I know the speed of these forums seems like a dream compared to the old platform, but this discussion is huge, and is affecting page loading times all over the forums. We are going to let it get to the 100k mark, since I promised we would let it get to 100k posts, but then we're going to have to re-start it.

We'd like to make the title a little more clear (and SEO-friendly) in the hopes that it may be inviting for current and former car salespeople to join in. Right now, there's nothing in the title that makes it clear it's about CAR sales. Any ideas? I saw something from abacomike that sparked a thought - Stories from the Auto Showroom Floor?

How about "Old Farts Flapping Gums". OFFG?

abacomike

@Kirstie@Edmunds said:
On another note...
I know the speed of these forums seems like a dream compared to the old platform, but this discussion is huge, and is affecting page loading times all over the forums. We are going to let it get to the 100k mark, since I promised we would let it get to 100k posts, but then we're going to have to re-start it.

We'd like to make the title a little more clear (and SEO-friendly) in the hopes that it may be inviting for current and former car salespeople to join in. Right now, there's nothing in the title that makes it clear it's about CAR sales. Any ideas? I saw something from abacomike that sparked a thought - Stories from the Auto Showroom Floor?

Kirstie, maybe this would be appropriate:

Sales Stories From The Auto Showroom Floor

Perhaps this one is a bit more related to "Sales", however, it may be too long, so the first one might be more accommodating.

driver100

@fezo said:This is what I'll pay. Say yes and I'll make the trip and if the car is as represented I'll take it.

I was doing some more thinking, and you and Mike or anyone can comment. I will know what I expect to pay for the new car and I will know what I expect to get for the trade-in, I am not an unreasonable person.

If I say to him, along the lines he lost a sale last time, because they weren't fair, what I want him to do is come up with a price, he gets one shot at it. If it is good I buy, if not good I walk.

My thinking is he may come up with a price even better than I anticipated. If the difference in price is more than I want to pay, I can walk or do a last negotiation, if it is better than I anticipated, I do even better! What do you think?

abacomike

@oldfarmer50 said:
How about "Old Farts Flapping Gums". OFFG?

Now that's funny, OF, you deserve an LOL for that one!

abacomike

MORE SALES STORIES FROM THE AUTO SHOWROOM FLOOR

Here's a story I had next on my list of sales stories from when I was a sales manager in a high volume dealership.

On Sundays (we were open 7 days a week), I was always the first one at the dealership to open the doors, turn on the lights, start the computers and accompanying programs, and put up the coffee. We opened at 10:00 AM on Sundays, so I usually arrived at about 9:00 AM.

This one Sunday morning at about 9:15 AM, I saw a young couple walking through the new car lot eying G37 Coupes, There were no salesmen in the dealership yet so I locked the front door and put a sign up stating I was on the lot with some customers. I walked over and introduced myself as the manager. They immediately started asking me some questions about the Red G37 Coupe we were standing next to. I answered all their questions and indicated that this Coupe was very special since it came in from the factory with only basic, standard equipment, and had few, if any options. It MSRP'd at about $37,900. They said that's why they were looking at it - it was right in their budget range.

I walked with them to the showroom, opened the door, and we walked in. As I was getting the key from KeyTrac, the owner of the dealership arrived with his 3 boys. So I asked him if he wouldn't mind watching the showroom while I took this couple out on a demo drive in the car they saw on the lot. He said, "...of course, that's why I hired you Mike - you can manage and you can sell cars!"

I brought the car up to the showroom area and we went on a demo drive. They fell in love with the car. When we got back to the showroom from the demo drive, we walked inside and there still were no salesmen in yet (it was about 9:55 AM). So I brought them to an office and we sat down. The young man said to me, "...I am going to make you one offer for the car and if you won't accept my offer, we are leaving!" So, I asked them what their offer was. He quoted me $38,500 "out the door" which would include taxes, fees, title, etc. I accepted their offer and started the paperwork for the sale. Their credit was good and would qualify for a low interest loan.

Finally, at about 10:05, another manager came in with two salesmen. I had completed all the forms, paperwork, etc., so I walked over to one of the salesmen who was fairly new and hadn't sold many cars since he started with us over a month ago, and asked him to take the keys to the car and run it back to "get ready" for delivery. He complied and I brought them into the finance office and did all the paperwork. The finance manager walked in, finished the signatures, etc., and when the car was brought around for delivery, the new salesman gave me both sets of keys. I asked if he wouldn't mind going over the car with the new owners, and he obliged me.

When the couple left, the new salesman came over with the delivery paperwork signed. He was about to walk away and I said, "...where are you going? Don't you want to know how much commission you just made on the sale of that G37 Coupe?" He was flabbergasted, to say the least.

The owner came down from his office and asked me if I sold that couple a car. I said, "...what do you think, boss?" He smiled and said to me, "...that's what I expect from all my managers!"

The moral of this story is that a sales manager MUST be as good at selling, demonstrating and financing cars as anyone else in the dealership. You never know when you will need those skills to sell a car, demonstrate the features of a car, and then do all of the paperwork necessary to deliver that car to the customer.

abacomike

@driver100 said:
I was doing some more thinking, and you and Mike or anyone can comment. I will know what I expect to pay for the new car and I will know what I expect to get for the trade-in, I am not an unreasonable person.

>
If I say to him, along the lines he lost a sale last time, because they weren't fair, what I want him to do is come up with a price, he gets one shot at it. If it is good I buy, if not good I walk.
>
My thinking is he may come up with a price even better than I anticipated. If the difference in price is more than I want to pay, I can walk or do a last negotiation, if it is better than I anticipated, I do even better! What do you think?

That can happen, driver. Often, a dealership will provide a price for a new car that would knock just about anyone out of their shoes if they think that the sale of that car to you means more business in the future for them. It's happened to me many times.

However, driver, I would not use the words "weren't fair" or "you were unfair" to the dealer. I would use, "...since your numbers were not in line with what I expected to pay because of your low value on my trade..."! Pinpoint where the problem was - the trade, right? So, when they appraise your 535xi in lieu of buying a new BMW, they had better sharpen their pencils this time. It puts the dealership in a position of weakness since you know what you want for your trade.

BTW, since you are a returning customer, BMW usually has published and "unpublished" retention incentives available to the customer. Make sure you know what they are and how much is available. That will make a big difference in negotiations.

Finally, you mentioned, "...if the difference in price is more than I want to pay, I can walk or do a last negotiation..."! I would disagree with that last part. If the pricing is more than you anticipated or want to pay, you put out your hand and shake his hand, you turn around, and you begin to walk out the front door. That's when you "take charge" of the sale - you don't have to say it's too much, or you gave me too little for my trade - just turn around, and slowly walk toward the front door. You won't get within 5 feet of that front door, believe me!!!

stickguy

Driver, I like your idea of having them make the first offer. But I would not make it fatal. Run the spiel, and see what they come up with. If it beats your target, take it. But if it is higher, just counter with "I was thinking that XXX" was fair, and if you can do that we have a deal right now, otherwise I am leaving".

driver100

@abacomike said:However, driver, I would not use the words "weren't fair" or "you were unfair" to the dealer. I would use, "...since your numbers were not in line with what I expected to pay because of your low value on my trade..."! Pinpoint where the problem was - the trade, right? So, when they appraise your 535xi in lieu of buying a new BMW, they had better sharpen their pencils this time.

I love it, that is perfect and makes sense.

. That's when you "take charge" of the sale - you don't have to say it's too much, or you gave me too little for my trade - just turn around, and slowly walk toward the front door. You won't get within 5 feet of that front door, believe me!!!

I like the sounds of that, I can't wait until I have to go back.....fully armed too

driver100

@stickguy said: But if it is higher, just counter with "I was thinking that XXX" was fair, and if you can do that we have a deal right now, otherwise I am leaving"

I like that idea too...no use cutting off my nose to spite my face or whatever that saying is.

This really makes me feel in control. I guess I would have to check out the A6 first though, once I do this I am locked in to buying...ha ha.

fezo

When you replace the Passat you should have Mike join you.....

abacomike

@fezo said:

"When you replace the Passat you should have Mike join you....."

By the time he's ready to replace the Passat, I'll be long gone. The Passat is driven only 5 months a year. It will be 4 years before it has enough wear and year to consider trading in!

fezo

Oh, I thought that Richard is being such a skinflint with me that driver was giving me the Passat. My mistake.....

driver100

@fezo said:
When you replace the Passat you should have Mike join you.....

Good idea, the Passat is will be 2 years old in November and it will have about 4000 miles on it.
Hope Mike is around in 12 years.....geez, hope I am around in 12 years!

driver100

@abacomike said: It will be 4 years before it has enough wear and year to consider trading in!

I am hoping the Passat will still be good in 10 or 12 years....but, yeh, I would welcome you coming along and doing the negotiating for me...that would be fun, I'll just sit back and watch.

abacomike

@driver100 said:

"I am hoping the Passat will still be good in 10 or 12 years....but, yeh, I would welcome you coming along and doing the negotiating for me...that would be fun, I'll just sit back and watch."

I'm ready when you are! Just give me the word!

driver100

@abacomike said:I'm ready when you are! Just give me the word!

That is very nice to know. You are about 3 1/2 hours away from where we are near Tampa. One day maybe we can meet half way in Fort Meyers or Cape Coral...that would be cool.

dave8697

I haven't sold any of the 90's cars I've bought. They have 529k miles between the 3 of them. They get 18, 20, and 23 avg mpgs from V6 engines. One needs a new CD player, One needs a new a/c compressor, and the third one needs things it will never get. My wife wants to get a new Regal when she finishes with the Astro. So far this spring, the Astro a/c issue has not been a concern. We are setting record lows all this past week and I wore a jacket today. It turns out that there are 33,000 square miles of ice still on the Great Lakes. This is a record by more than twice the previous all-time record this late into spring. Other good news is that Antarctic sea ice is way above normal, and Arctic sea ice is within 3.5% of the 1979-2000 mean line for April 30th, 2014.

abacomike

@dave8697 said:
I haven't sold any of the 90's cars I've bought. They have 529k miles between the 3 of them. They get 18, 20, and 23 avg mpgs from V6 engines. One needs a new CD player, One needs a new a/c compressor, and the third one needs things it will never get. My wife wants to get a new Regal when she finishes with the Astro. So far this spring, the Astro a/c issue has not been a concern. We are setting record lows all this past week and I wore a jacket today. It turns out that there are 33,000 square miles of ice still on the Great Lakes. This is a record by more than twice the previous all-time record this late into spring. Other good news is that Antarctic sea ice is way above normal, and Arctic sea ice is within 3.5% of the 1979-2000 mean line for April 30th, 2014.

Boy, that sure is a lot of information in one post, dave.

Regals are nice looking vehicles - hope you get one soon so you can share with us your experiences (or you wife's experiences) with that car.

Sounds like you need a great mechanic who has access to loads of spare parts for your other cars.

I am assuming you are bringing up the "ice" thing to refute that the Earth is warming. Interesting data, however I would bring up the fact that one year's record setting ice and cold temperatures is really not an indicator of the Earth's climate.

Good luck up there in the hinterlands!

abacomike

@driver100 said:
That is very nice to know. You are about 3 1/2 hours away from where we are near Tampa. One day maybe we can meet half way in Fort Meyers or Cape Coral...that would be cool.

Not a problem, driver. But if you make the trip, come all the way down here so I can get you a great deal on a Mercedes E Class or anything else you may have a desire for. Remember, I know lots of people in the Ft. Lauderdale/Palm Beach areas who work in dealerships.

Halfway down the peninsula there isn't that much to see - maybe Naples, but the rest of the trip is Alligator Alley or Ft. Myers, is OK, but I would stay at a Hotel/Motel if I was going to meet you in Ft. Myers.

houdini1

@abacomike said:

Mike, you are correct that one year doesn't make much difference, but the interesting info in Dave's post is that the Arctic ice is about 97% of normal when compared with the average amount of ice between the years 1979-2014.

How many times over the last few years have you heard that all the Arctic ice has practically disappeared? According to Dave that is just not true.

abacomike

@houdini1‌ said:

"How many times over the last few years have you heard that all the Arctic ice has practically disappeared? According to Dave that is just not true."

I do not want to extend this conversation re: Global Warming as we will be back to posting political vs. car stuff.

I think the data is interesting, but unless the same data is for 3-5 years, it really doesn't mean much. If after 3-5 years the same data presents itself, then we will have something to discuss.

mako1a

I was asked to build a deck for my wife's Mom in Racine, WI in June of 1977. Having not been that far north before I brought all flannel long sleeved shirts. Turns out they do have warm/hot days in WI in the summer. Deck job turned out well even with all the heat.

In Virginia we look at above the Mason Dixon line as having two seasons...winter and the 4th of July.

driver100

@dave8697 said:I haven't sold any of the 90's cars I've bought. They have 529k miles between the 3 of them.

>

Dave, when you are ready to sell one of the 3 cars from the 90s give Oldfarmer a call.

driver100

@abacomike said:But if you make the trip, come all the way down here so I can get you a great deal on a Mercedes E Class

>

I would love to buy an E Class in Miami, and have it as my permanent car. It would cost about 20% less than it would in Canada. We aren't allowed to bring cars back across the border unless they have all the changes made, plus the warranty would be null and void, and there would be taxes to pay.

So, any car we buy in Florida becomes our winter Florida car, and though I like an E Class, I would have to win a lottery to consider driving an E about 2000 miles a year. Most of the time, our Florida car is used for about 5 months of the year - as you know - and it is usually a 2nd car.

I was looking at an Audi A7 today and it is a nice looking car - similar style to yours, 4 door coupe. I don't think I could get one because of the low roofline....we are always taking people with us and they would find it hard entering and exiting. But, I was wondering about the trunk opening. Does it open the full size of the rear window in your car? On the A7 it looks pretty small.

driver100

@houdini1 said: the interesting info in Dave's post is that the Arctic ice is about 97% of normal when compared with the average amount of ice between the years 1979-2014.

I know we don't want to make this into a political arguement, but, just to be clear...although the Great Lakes were almost completely frozen over this year, which is very unusual....the amount of ice in the Arctic is a lot less than usual.

I am not saying this means anything yet, but, just wanted to clarify...Great Lakes is a very different situation.

houdini1

@driver100 said:

Unless I have lost the ability to read, Dave was talking about the Arctic, not the Great Lakes, when he said the ice was within 3.5% of the normal mean average for the years 1979 thru 2014. That sounds to me like the amount of ice in the Arctic is pretty close to what it has always been. Now, I don't know where Dave got his info or if it is correct. I am just repeating what he said. Perhaps he can fill us in with a little more info.

Dave also mentioned that the Great Lakes and Antarctica had lots of ice this winter, but the part about being within 3.5% of normal was the Arctic, not the Great Lakes. Please read his post again and see if you agree.

stickguy

Mako, given a choice, I would move down to your climate (upper NC). I have no desire at this point to go anywhere with a heavy-duty winter.

My daughter also hates being cold. She is in Atlanta this week for a school conference, and likes it there. one big reason? It is HOT!. Probably a good thing she starts college in NC in the fall, and not up in the finger lakes like her brother did.

abacomike

@driver100 said:

"But, I was wondering about the trunk opening. Does it open the full size of the rear window in your car? On the A7 it looks pretty small."

The trunk in my car is huge. But the rear seat has very little headroom and it only sits 2 people because it has a long wooden console between the two rear seats. I once tried to get into the back seat, but I could not get my legs an size 12 shoes into the car. Shorter people or kids would have no problem.

Remember, the Mercedes CLS is a "coupe" with 4 doors. So is the BMW 650 4 door a coupe. The front seats are very comfortable - I am 6'2" and my head doesn't touch the roof.

oldfarmer50

Question on summer tires

In doing some tire comparisons on TireRack I came across the statement that summer tires aren't to be driven in temps below 45 F. One Max Performance even said they wouldn't warranty if the tires cracked at those temps.

"P Zero tires are Max Performance Summer tires derived from 100 years of Pirelli motorsport experience and developed for the drivers of powerful sports cars, sports coupes and high performance luxury sedans. Initially introduced as Original Equipment on the Aston Martin DB9, Audi R8, Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano, Lamborghini Murcielago, Maserati Quattroporte Sport GT and Mercedes-Benz AMG vehicles, the P Zero lineup also includes select replacement tire sizes. Pirelli’s warranty does not cover tires that develop compound cracking due to use in ambient temperatures below 45° Fahrenheit (7° Celsius), so the P Zero, like all summer tires, is not intended to be driven in near-freezing temperatures, through snow or on ice."

While I'd never drive in snow or ice I might drive in temps near freezing. Does this mean summer tires are not an option here in NY?

stickguy

there has to be some wiggle room there. I can't believe they are going to self destruct above freezing. I know they will get hard and slick when it gets that cold.

where you are, might want to hold out a little later, but you should be fine by now. Especially if you have an alternative to use on a rare extra cold day.

oldfarmer50

@driver100 said:

No problem buying 90s hoopties but they have to be low miles for the year. My 19 yo Lincoln only had 67k and the 93 Caddy just 80k. It's the low milage that wets my whistle. If I want something all miled up all I have to do is look at Craigslist. I think I've seen a few cars there that have 529k miles all by themselves.

explorerx4

@oldfarmer, many dedicated winter tires don't work well above 45 degrees. I would think the occasional drive in cold temps with summer tires wouldn't be a big deal, tire construction-wise. Handling my be another story.
BTW, I scrolled back and saw you responded to my post about the California Special Mustang. C/S is an option package. Pretty expensive for a Mustang. I think it was first offered in the late 60's.

laurasdada

@driver100 said:

The A7 is actually a hatchback, so quite a big opening! And quite a bit of storage. Very nice piece of work, wife liked it more than the 535xi but she wanted a 5 seater. At the time, the A7 was only 4.

stickguy

I had summer tires once, back in 1985, that I used through the winter. Including on snow. I came real close to buying snows that year. Talk about dangerous. On a dusting of snow, it was like driving on 4 plastic saucer sled.

laurasdada

@oldfarmer50 said:
Question on summer tires

In doing some tire comparisons on TireRack I came across the statement that summer tires aren't to be driven in temps below 45 F. One Max Performance even said they wouldn't warranty if the tires cracked at those temps.

I had summer tires on my Jag XK. I used them through two New England winters. Any, and I mean any, snow (e.g. one 1/4" dusting) and I could not get up my mildly steep driveway. DO NOT DRIVE SUMMER TIRES IN THE SNOW!!! I didn't note any cracking, but they were done at about 36k miles, as expected. I replaced them with Conti Extreme Contact DWS. And then, unfortunately, replaced the XK...

abacomike

@oldfarmer50‌ said:

"While I'd never drive in snow or ice I might drive in temps near freezing. Does this mean summer tires are not an option here in NY?"

I would assume so, oldfarmer. My CLS 550 has summer tires, but they are the 19" AMG Wheels option. I don't know if the standard 18" tires are also summer tires. There is a warning in the user's manual about these tires stating that they are not intended for use on snow or ice covered roads and streets. They further recommend that properly installed winter tires should be installed for winter driving.

If the tire manufacturer won't warrant summer tires if they crack, then that says it all.

abacomike

@laurasdada said:

"I didn't note any cracking, but they were done at about 36k miles, as expected."

I'll never get any where near 36K miles on these tires. I'll be lucky if I can get 18K miles on them. They are Continentals.

abacomike

HAPPY CINQO DE MAYO

To all our Mexican friends, have a great celebration!

dave8697

A couple things I found out recently: Great Lakes ice coverage just broke the all time record by more than 2:1 for ice remaining on April 25th of any year. The 35% new record wallopped the 1979 mark. 1% is the average. Just Lake Superior alone had 12 cubic miles (48 Gigatonnes) of new ice this winter, causing the lake to have a 14 inch year over year level rise, putting it above the mean historical level, taking 7 cubic miles out of the oceans. 7 cubic miles would be all of the melting of the entire Himalayas mountain range since 2000. I also read that the Arctic ice pack grew from 1400 cubic miles in sept of 2012 to 2200 cubic miles in sept of 2013. That is an 800 cubic mile increase in one year. That gave Nov 2013 through March 2014 a good head start for further Arctic ice pack increase, with ice area hitting 14.9 million sq km on March 20, 2014. 15.36 million sq km is the 1981-2010 mean for March 20th. A cool 97% of the 30 year avg. The difference maker, though is the 800 new cubic miles this year from thicker two year ice. Typically, 500 cu miles are added per winter. 800 is rare. So with tremendous ice growth in the Arctic for three straight years now, we are told by the Climate experts that the frigid Jan 2014 weather was a "Polar Vortex". And told that it is soooo warm in the Arctic that the air currents are abnormal there and the Arctic air mass fell apart, descending south onto me in Indiana. Abnormal warm Arctic with 800 cubic miles of new ice, and 97% of normal ice area of 15.9 million sq. km? Actually, that much of a head start going into winter would explain the cold we just had. 330,000 square miles of lakes in Canada froze over this winter. And hardly any of it has melted yet.

driver100

@houdini1 said:. Please read his post again and see if you agree.

I think you got it right...Houdini....I'll read on further to see if we get a difinitive answer.

dave8697

nsidc.org is nasa funded. The last 3 years ice growth have caused all media released data to now be strictly pre 2011, so that the narrative is supported and I feel pressured to buy an electric car.