Stories from the Sales Frontlines

abacomike

@dave8697 said:

"A couple things I found out recently: Great Lakes ice coverage just broke the all time record by more than 2:1 for ice remaining on April 25th of any year."

The data is interesting - at least those I understand! However, for the data to be impactful, it must be repeated for several consecutive years. The data could indicate a fluke year if only one year is considered.

What would be impactful would be 3-5 years of repeatedly cold winters with tremendous increases in the polar ice caps and drops on the levels of the oceans.

So, this is a good start, but let's see what happens in subsequent winters in both the Northern and Southern Hemispheres.

driver100

@abacomike said: But the rear seat has very little headroom and it only sits 2 people because it has a long wooden console between the two rear seats. I once tried to get into the back seat, but I could not get my legs an size 12 shoes into the car. Shorter people or kids would have no problem.

Thanks, I really like the look of those 4-door coupes but that is going to be problem...most people I carry would have trouble with that. My wife and I were in the 3rd seat of a new Chrysler mini-van and that isn't too easy to get in and out of either. Once you are in it is fine, but stepping down while bent over is an experience. Also, pushing up and down the 2nd row seat isn't easy to do, unless someone comes around and does it for you. But, at least it can cars 6 passengers in reasonable comfort.....maybe 7 or 8.

driver100

@laurasdada said:
The A7 is actually a hatchback, so quite a big opening! And quite a bit of storage. Very nice piece of work,

Thanks, for the information...I'll leave the A7 on my wish list. Maybe I will become more anti-social as I get even older and won't want to carry other people around......or, at least torture them getting in and out.

abacomike

@driver100 said:

"Maybe I will become more anti-social as I get even older and won't want to carry other people around......or, at least torture them getting in and out."

That's one thing I love about my CLS - I can't haul anyone but kids - and there certainly aren't any of those around here. I know that because on Halloween, my doorbell NEVER EVER RINGS. Don't you just love that? The only advantage to living in this community on the verge of being deceased!!!!

robr2

@abacomike said:

HAPPY CINQO DE MAYO

To all our Mexican friends, have a great celebration!

Psssst - it's not a big holiday in Mexico. It's celebrated like Columbus Day - schools close but the vast majority of everything else is open. Cinco de Mayo was created by Mexicans and Latinos in the United States during the 1800's and didn't gain traction as a "holiday" until the 1940's.

snakeweasel

@fezo said:
Be interesting to see if Hillary is cut of the same cloth because she will almost certainly be our next president.

I am trying to stay out of the political discussions here but I think I will comment on this. I think the odds are strongly against Hillary becoming POTUS. Here are the reasons:

1.) Joe Biden, the heir apparent for any administration is the Veep, if Biden wants to run Hillary may have issues with that. She may be seen as a spoiler by deal makers in the party.

2.) Benghazi, this is something that could very well haunt Hillary if not outright sink her.

3.) The economy, if it doesn't get better in the next 18 months or so it would hurt the democratic nominees chances and I really don't see it improving much in that time.

4.) The real wild card, the republican nominee. The republican party does have a few combinations they can put together that would be hard to beat (the question is will they run). Plus any republican that puts forth a positive message can easily take the White House in 2016.

At this point I would say that there is a good chance that the next POTUS will be a Republican.

abacomike

@snakeweasel said:

"I am trying to stay out of the political discussions here but..."

We all need to try just a little bit harder to depoliticized our thread here. Here's a topic:

TITANIC HITS ICEBERG AND SINKS - 1500+ SOULS LOST!

snakeweasel

@bwia said:
With that said, I am debating whether I should update my GPS NAV system. The DVD sells for $199 but GM is letting it go for $159. How many new roads have they built in the last few years? And besides, does the updated map improve on its direction and guidance capability or does it take you along the same (sometimes) inefficient route?

That begs the question of if you have a basic smart phone (or even a moderately intelligent phone) you have a pretty decent GPS that is automatically updated so why spend the extra bucks to update a GPS NAV system?

verdugo

@robr2 said:
it's not a big holiday in Mexico. It's celebrated like Columbus Day - schools close but the vast majority of everything else is open.

Actually rob, your information is wrong. 5 de Mayo (or as it's known in Mexico, Battle of Puebla) is an official holiday. All government (federal, state, local,) banks, schools, and all private sector offices are closed.

Having said that, it's not a big party. Most people take a short vacation/long weekend. This year, last Thursday was a holiday too (May 1st, Labor day) so it was a nice break.

stickguy

not sure why the big rush to phone aps. For a couple of reasons. A big one being, data charges. Plus, cell service tends to be less steady than the GPS signals. and a true GPS usually has better functionality. The cell is handy if you are local and need a quick hit, but for a serious trip I would prefer the Garmin. Reserve the iphone for running music, etc.!

I may be getting a new unit soon. The Garmin my wife likes has gotten cranky, and on a somewhat frequent basis will just freeze and lock up, requiring a reboot. not good when you are in a city! also have a tom tom, but she has trouble figuring that one out, and it is way out of date.

seems that most of the big stores have a nice looking Garmin on sale this week for $99. Lifetime map updates too. I also like the new split screen, where it shows the exit from a "thru the windshield" type view. For the price, seems like a good deal. I'll toss the wonky Garmin, and retire the tom tom to my car, since I don't have one.

nyccarguy

Sales Stories - Keep 'em coming!

Mike - thanks for yor renewed interest in recollecting some of your personal sales stories. They are great & reminds me what brought me to this board in the 1st place many moons ago. Speaking of... Craig are you still here?

abacomike

@nyccarguy said:

"Mike - thanks for yor renewed interest in recollecting some of your personal sales stories."

Thanks, Bradd, but it's hard to remember those experiences. I am trying not to repeat the stories I posted over the past 4 years I've been following this thread.

I still have a list of 12-13 such stories - I'll post them every so often when things seem to be slow in this thread. As I remember more, I'll jot them down and add them to my list.

nyccarguy

Speaking of Sales Stories, my best friend is picking up his new Jeep tomorrow (Sahara, Unlimited, Anvil/Black Hard Top, automatic). He's been talking about how cool Wranglers are for a while. One day he was approached by a friend of his at their gym if they wanted to swap cars for a week. "Sure." So last week they traded keys. His wife's 2011 X5 for this guy's Wrangler. My best friend fell in love with the Wrangler. So he "built" his ideal Jeep on their website & sent an inquiry that he was interested to have a dealership contact him.

A woman from a Jeep dealer calls him up bright & early the next AM. He tells her exactly what he wants & that he's looking to lease for 36 months/20K per year. $0 down.

She tells him it will be about $700 with $1000 down for 15K per year. This is after she told him numerous times that he "has to come down." He told her he'll come down once she gives him the right price. "Don't you want to take a test drive?" He tells her, "no, I just borrowed a friend's for a week." We'll get back to her at the moment.

He then contacts a sales person he's test driven a Jeep with about a year ago at a family owned dealership. Their price on every car is MSRP mins incentives, that's it. That guy gives him a lease price of $710.

He started calling around. $700 & $710 per month suddenly became $650 & $625. He kept calling different dealers. He got $575 & $560. He finally found the exact Jeep he wanted and called the dealership up. The guy told him $540. He submitted a credit app & is picking the car up tomorrow.

The First Lady who kept nudging him to "come down" keeps calling him back. Her $700 per month became $600 per month real quick. He told her he's buying the jeep at XYZ Jeep. She then asks "how much, we'll meet any price." He tells her the price and she tells him "that's impossible." He tells her "nothing is impossible," and thanks her for her time;)

snakeweasel

@stickguy said:
not sure why the big rush to phone aps. For a couple of reasons. A big one being, data charges. Plus, cell service tends to be less steady than the GPS signals. and a true GPS usually has better functionality. The cell is handy if you are local and need a quick hit, but for a serious trip I would prefer the Garmin. Reserve the iphone for running music, etc.!

Most smart phones have GPS receivers so getting the signal to locate yourself is no issue. You only use data when downloading the maps and some navigation apps allow you to preload maps. I have never even come close to hitting my maximum allowable data usage.

oldfarmer50

@abacomike said:
snakeweasel said:

"I am trying to stay out of the political discussions here but..."

We all need to try just a little bit harder to depoliticized our thread here. Here's a topic:

TITANIC HITS ICEBERG AND SINKS - 1500+ SOULS LOST!

No it didn't! It was a hoax staged by the Illuminati and big bankers.....and yeah, George Bush! Yeah.

bwia

@snakeweasel said:
Most smart phones have GPS receivers so getting the signal to locate yourself is no issue. You only use data when downloading the maps and some navigation apps allow you to preload maps. I have never even come close to hitting my maximum allowable data usage.

Thanks for clearing that up but unfortunately I do not have a smart phone (yet?) Besides, I have become so accustomed to my car's 8 inch display that a phone screen looks puny by comparison.

For me, the decision is either to upgrade to a smart phone or to buy the DVD upgrade disk. Either way the marginal utility is hard to justify. I have my eye set on the Samsung Galaxy S5. However, it is more phone than I need to talk and text. For surfing the net I already have a desktop and a lap so a smartphone does not add value except to be a nice conversation piece.

According to Oprah I'll have to sleep on it for a little while longer.

snakeweasel

@fezo said:
I would like to get out of the politics for a while. It's not like we don't have other things to talk about and I need to get a refrigerator....

I found one for you;

ken117

Abacomike, True Car does present a nice discounted price. However, True Car receives $300 from the dealer for each deal consumated. A person can get the True Car price without agreeing to the deal. A buyer could take that price to a dealer, most will honor that price with little effort, and ask for $300 less. Why give that $300 to True Car? In most cased, well not Florida, that $300 should about cover the silly documentation fees most states allow.

graphicguy

NYC....good sales story. It still amazes me that some keep shopping based on monthly payment. Does your friend have any idea what his final price was for his Jeep?

Not judging in any way, just amazes me how some will shop to save a dime on rolls of TP, yet have no idea how much they're buying their vehicle for.

ken117

Just a few questions from a buyer.

First, just how many buyers can be controlled through the use of phrases such as "follow me?'' With the internet, I would think a good percentage of buyers understand the car buying process and gamesmanship. Are those folks controllable?

Second, do dealerships still use the four-square? As a buyer I find this game the ultimate insult. Thankfully, I have only seen it tried once in the past decade. I remember commenting to the sales person we really did not need to use the four square. He quickly put it back in the file.

Third, how many buyers actually make the first offer? I suspect many folks understand the axiom, he who speaks first loses.

robr2

@verdugo said:
Actually rob, your information is wrong. 5 de Mayo (or as it's known in Mexico, Battle of
Puebla) is an official holiday. All government (federal, state, local,) banks, schools, and all
private sector offices are closed.
Having said that, it's not a big party. Most people take a short vacation/long weekend. This year, last Thursday was a holiday too (May 1st, Labor day) so it was a nice break.

According to wiki and a number of other sources, it's not a true national holiday and it's only an official holiday in Puebla. Everything I've read is that it's a low level day to remember an insignificant battle in Puebla. It's like Columbus Day in terms of national importance.

I guess we'll have to check with an official Mexican for sure.

driver100

@nyccarguy said:. He finally found the exact Jeep he wanted and called the dealership up. The guy told him $540. He submitted a credit app & is picking the car up tomorrow.

>

NYC, I have one question....nowhere did we discuss a buy-back price. Getting a lower monthly payment is very good, but, sometimes that can be offset by a much higher buy-back price.

Do you have information about what the BB price was? And, how could one saleslady try to get about 30% more and actually think she would sell a car? Is she out of her mind? Do you know what the prices are of a similar Wrangler on say Edmunds?

Good story....just curious!

driver100

Good way to test a new fridge:

oldfarmer50

@stickguy said:
not sure why the big rush to phone aps. For a couple of reasons. A big one being, data charges. Plus, cell service tends to be less steady than the GPS signals. and a true GPS usually has better functionality. The cell is handy if you are local and need a quick hit, but for a serious trip I would prefer the Garmin. Reserve the iphone for running music, etc.!

I may be getting a new unit soon. The Garmin my wife likes has gotten cranky, and on a somewhat frequent basis will just freeze and lock up, requiring a reboot. not good when you are in a city! also have a tom tom, but she has trouble figuring that one out, and it is way out of date.

seems that most of the big stores have a nice looking Garmin on sale this week for $99. Lifetime map updates too. I also like the new split screen, where it shows the exit from a "thru the windshield" type view. For the price, seems like a good deal. I'll toss the wonky Garmin, and retire the tom tom to my car, since I don't have one.

I was thinking of getting a GPS for my son for his birthday. Do you have a model number for that Garmin? I like the idea of free updates.

nyccarguy

@graphicguy‌

He wasn't just "payment shopping." The guy who he is buying from sent him a "screen shot" of his exact deal that shows everything from the car's actual cost to the MSRP to the residual, then a print out of the Chrysler Group Invoice, then all the dmv fees... I just figured it made a better story if I showed the actual lease numbers.

stickguy

Farmer, it was the garmin nuvi52LM. $100 at PC Richards. I think best buy was slightly more, and might be on sale at target too.

graphicguy

NYC....Good deal on the Jeep, then. I thought $540 was high. But, I've never shopped for a Jeep and don't know pricing on them.

stickguy

Those suckers loaded up are real pricey.

graphicguy

Kirstie, Michaell, Kyfdx, Karen, Steve...et al

I saw the mention that SFTSFL is going to be "rebooted". I understand that.

But, this is a pretty wide ranging bunch. We do slide in sales stories on occassion, and always welcome newcomers. But, I would imagine that we'll take our (often) off topic banter to a different thread, as this one has become somewhat legendary for it's broad (and sometimes animated and heated) scope.

My 2¢.

fezo

Dave - "Just Lake Superior alone had 12 cubic miles (48 Gigatonnes) of new ice this winter, causing the lake to have a 14 inch year over year level rise, putting it above the mean historical level, taking 7 cubic miles out of the oceans."

Oh, swell. Just what we need - a colder Lake Superior..... Ive tried my darndest to swim in all 5 Great Lakes but even well into the summer Superior is crazy. I'm missing Ontario, too but that's an accident of geography. I've at least waded in both...

abacomike

@nyccarguy said:

"He started calling around. $700 & $710 per month suddenly became $650 & $625. He kept calling different dealers. He got $575 & $560. He finally found the exact Jeep he wanted and called the dealership up. The guy told him $540. He submitted a credit app & is picking the car up tomorrow."

That first dealer (female salesperson) didn't know who she was dealing with. The first rule in car sales is ""KNOW YOUR CUSTOMER""! You only get to know your customer by asking questions that, on the surface, seem mundane, but actually are designed to find out where your customer is coming from. In this case, it was obvious there was no way she was going to make a sale. Will she learn from this experience - I doubt that very much!

If I got a call from a customer who wanted to know how much a lease would be on "X" vehicle with "X" options and equipment and I already know the customer doesn't want to put a penny down on the lease, I would ask one question - "...about how much were you thinking of spending on a 36 month lease for that $40,000 Jeep with "0" out of pocket?" If the customer then asks me "how much" and won't give me an idea of where he/she wants to be, I would give him/her the very best number I could come up with from management. Remember, "callers" are interested in only one thing - the payment per month. If I give out a payment, the first thing they will do is call another dealers and try to beat my number. So why not just give the customer the very lowest number you will lease the vehicle at and then, when he/she tries to beat that number, it would be impossible. So where does that customer end up? Right at my desk in my dealership!

Call-in customers are interested in only one thing - price! You don't have the opportunity to play games with that customer. You number one job is to get the customer into the showroom. How do you do that? By giving him/her a price they would find almost impossible to beat!

Case Closed!

abacomike

@ken117 said:
Just a few questions from a buyer.

First, just how many buyers can be controlled through the use of phrases such as "follow me?'' With the internet, I would think a good percentage of buyers understand the car buying process and gamesmanship. Are those folks controllable?

Second, do dealerships still use the four-square? As a buyer I find this game the ultimate insult. Thankfully, I have only seen it tried once in the past decade. I remember commenting to the sales person we really did not need to use the four square. He quickly put it back in the file.

Third, how many buyers actually make the first offer? I suspect many folks understand the axiom, he who speaks first loses.

Well, "please follow me" works quite well no matter where you are or what your are doing. Think about it - if a sales person said to you, "...please follow me..." are you going to oblige the sales person's request or are you going to stand there and wait for the sun to set? Of course, you will follow the sales person.

Next, you asked if buyers who are quite savvy with the sales process can be controlled. The answer is no more than you can control anyone or anything else. Why would a sales person want to control the buyer? The sales person wants to control the "process", not the buyer! Controlling the process merely means that you are in the lead, but not in control. The buyer always has more, if not total, control of everything - because all he/she has to do is walk out!

You next asked about how many buyers actually "make" the first offer. Not many - that is not many who have not done their homework. If a buyer has done his/her homework on the vehicle they want to lease or purchase, they often will say, "...I'll make you one offer - take it or leave it! Many of the guys here on this thread do that all the time. One offer, out the door. HOWEVER, I think your question should be, "...HOW MANY BUYERS ACTUALLY "TAKE" THE FIRST OFFER? No buyer I have ever dealt with, either as a sales person or as a manager, has ever taken the first number I presented to him/her unless it's newly introduced car that is being sold at or above MSRP. An example would be when the redesigned Lexus SC430 first came out in the early 2000's. There were no negotiations on the price mainly because there was a waiting list for those cars for 6 months after introduction. They signed a statement when ordering their car that they understood that the car would be sold to them for MSRP + dealer fee, plus tax, plus title, plus registration and tags. But for everything else, I never remember a buyer ever accepting my first numbers.

As for your axiom, "...he who speaks first loses...", that used to be the case - not any more. The sales process must be designed to relax the customer and make it easy for the customer to communicate likes, dislikes, concerns, etc., without being hassled. The sales person who cannot develop that kind of rapport with a customer is not going to make many sales.

oldfarmer50

@stickguy said:
Farmer, it was the garmin nuvi52LM. $100 at PC Richards. I think best buy was slightly more, and might be on sale at target too.

Thanks,
I was looking at this one at the Best a Buy site. Any thoughts?

Best Buy Car Electronics & GPS GPS Navigation & Accessories Portable GPS

Garmin - nüvi 40LM 4.3" GPS with Lifetime Map Updates
Model: 010-00990-21 SKU: 3054038 Customer Rating:
4.6 (280 customer reviews)
New from
Sale: $79.99
Refurbished from
$94.95
Add to Cart
$79.99
ON SALE
Regular Price: $129.99
You Save: $50.00

The 52LM was $109.99 but other than maps of US territories I don't see the difference.

abacomike

@graphicguy said:
Kirstie, Michaell, Kyfdx, Karen, Steve...et al

I saw the mention that SFTSFL is going to be "rebooted". I understand that.

But, this is a pretty wide ranging bunch. We do slide in sales stories on occassion, and always welcome newcomers. But, I would imagine that we'll take our (often) off topic banter to a different thread, as this one has become somewhat legendary for it's broad (and sometimes animated and heated) scope.

There is no doubt that the regular "contributors" to this thread post just about anything and everything that comes to mind in the course of their lives. But since this is EDMUNDS and Edmunds is all about car buying, car shopping, car reviews, upcoming designs of cars or safety equipment, etc., it would be pretty difficult for them to have a new thread entitled, "MISCELLANEOUS" or "POST YOUR HEART OUT" or "ANYTHING GOES", etc. I would think the new thread title should say something about one of the processes I mentioned above for it to meet Edmunds's muster.

Don't you agree, GG?

stickguy

Farmer, the 52 has a 5" screen vs. the 40 that us 4.3". And bigger is better!

Kirstie_H

@abacomike and @graphicguy
The format will remain the same. It's just the title change and a re-boot to keep the forums from bogging down. The re-boot gives us the opportunity to change the title to hopefully attract more car-related stories, which I know you guys like, from customers and salespeople. But the fridge talk, etc., is fine. I don't think we need a separate "miscellaneous" discussion, do you? I mean, if you guys want one, we can see what we can do.

Maybe I should put "no global warming/climate change conversation" somewhere in there...

abacomike

@Kirstie@Edmunds said:
abacomike and graphicguy
The format will remain the same. It's just the title change and a re-boot to keep the forums from bogging down. The re-boot gives us the opportunity to change the title to hopefully attract more car-related stories, which I know you guys like, from customers and salespeople. But the fridge talk, etc., is fine. I don't think we need a separate "miscellaneous" discussion, do you? I mean, if you guys want one, we can see what we can do.

Maybe I should put "no global warming/climate change conversation" somewhere in there...

NOW THAT'S FUNNY! And you can add:

NO LEFT OR RIGHT WING POLITICS

NO BENGHAZI COMMENTS

NO UNEMPLOYMENT DISCUSSIONS

Yes, that's funny!

fezo

How about just throwing a 2 after the title for the reboot. Could even add "the sequel!"

nyccarguy

How about we honor the dead & call it: Stories From The Sales Frontlines 2 (be continued)

driver100

@abacomike said:Call-in customers are interested in only one thing - price! You don't have the opportunity to play games with that customer.

>

Lots of good information today Mike...liked reading those informative posts.

That sentence above makes me think maybe you can get the best deal possible....by telephone.
Just as NYCs friend did. I think you are saying...if you phone in you will get a good price based on the fact you want that potential customer to come into the showroom. One more thing, if I came to the showroom, and it turns into a bait and switch scam, I'd be gone in a flash...never to return. Oh, and I just remembered, I'd have to know the real value of my trade, because that could be a bit of a wild card.

driver100

@nyccarguy said:How about we honor the dead & call it: Stories From The Sales Frontlines 2

Stories from the Sales Frontlines is a bit cumbersome.....most folks would have to really think about that one to figure out what it meant. Maybe a simple:

Car Sales Stories...Buying and Selling!

(or Mostly Car Stories...Buying and Selling)

explorerx4

A lady at work showed up with a new small Kia CUV. Looked pretty nice. She had a Rav4 before that and looked at Toyota, Honda, Nissan and the Kia.

snakeweasel

@graphicguy said:
NYC....good sales story. It still amazes me that some keep shopping based on monthly payment.

Truth be told when you get down to brass tacks all that really matters is the flow of cash. How much and for how long, that is the true price of anything. Everyone is a payment buyer, the only question is how many payments?

abacomike

@driver100 said:

"That sentence above makes me think maybe you can get the best deal possible....by telephone. Just as NYCs friend did. I think you are saying...if you phone in you will get a good price based on the fact you want that potential customer to come into the showroom. "

Not necessarily so, driver. Many dealerships do not quote their lowest price over the phone or internet. They'll do one of these:

They'll give you a fair price over the phone or internet and then promise to do even better when you are at his desk. He might even say he can get you a better price when you are there where the manager sees you are ready to buy - then the salesman would say he has better leverage with the manager when you are at his desk.

If dealerships quoted their lowest price to everyone who calls or goes online, they would never make enough money to stay in business. Why? Because the dealer knows that you will use that price to leverage other dealers to get an even better price.

Calling the dealer is a great start. But to really get his rock bottom price, you eventually will have to go to the dealership.

snakeweasel

@ken117 asked:
Third, how many buyers actually make the first offer? I suspect many folks understand the axiom, he who speaks first loses.

No buyer ever makes the first offer. Technically the dealership makes the first offer by putting a price on the car.

As to he who speaks first loses, that never was true. While the customer can set the floor for the price by making an offer (or counteroffer) they will do that even if they didn't "speak first". A knowledgeable person would never set that floor so high as to not get a decent price for the car.

snakeweasel

@fezo said:
How about just throwing a 2 after the title for the reboot. Could even add "the sequel!"

How about "Stories from the Sales Front Line II: The Wrath of Coin."?

or

"Stories from the Sales Front Lines: Episode II - Attack of the Customers"?

or

"Stories From the Sales Front Line 2 1/2; The Smell of Sales"?

abacomike

@snakeweasel said:

"How about "Stories from the Sales Front Line II: The Wrath of Coin, etc, etc."

What about:

"Car Buying Advice From Those Who Know!"

driver100

They'll give you a fair price over the phone or internet and then promise to do even better when you are at his desk.

Very clever...it is hard to stay one step ahead of a car sales pro. That's a good one.

I liked selling my bargain priced paperback bestsellers business. Retailers make 40% profit ($2 on a $5 book), I provide everything, they can stop and get a full refund at any time. Our books would sell great 99.9% of the time......usually in the top 5% of retail sales in the store. Store owners loved me.

No game playing, no fast talking, no hassle.....always guaranteed, a full refund anytime if not 100% satisfied-never happenned!. I couldn't handle all the game playing in car sales....and then those horror stories about how you were treated by management. It sounds like if you aren't good in this life you could come back as a car salesman. (just joking)

fezo

Explorer - a small Kia CUV? Like a Soul? I have to admit as those Lille rolling boxes go (the Xb, Cube, etc) I think that one looks the best. I couldn't see myself in one and I think older drivers in them look silly because they're pretty blinged even in base but a cute little vehicle.

sterlingdog

@Kirstie@Edmunds said:
abacomike and graphicguy
The format will remain the same. It's just the title change and a re-boot to keep the forums from bogging down. The re-boot gives us the opportunity to change the title to hopefully attract more car-related stories, which I know you guys like, from customers and salespeople. But the fridge talk, etc., is fine. I don't think we need a separate "miscellaneous" discussion, do you? I mean, if you guys want one, we can see what we can do.

Maybe I should put "no global warming/climate change conversation" somewhere in there...

How about "Salesmen and Buyers Compare Notes". That should cover it all.

Richard