Stories from the Sales Frontlines

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Comments

  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    phrased another way, maybe we should all be looking at and demanding less electronically complicated vehicles. if complexity is being mandated, then the systems should be covered for the life of the vehicle, and / or cost reasonable to service and maintain.

    i want a car to remain a car, not a PDA on wheels. ;)

    those NAV, Climate Control, Audio integrated display options are not for this commuter!
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Well the LS was on the S-Type's platform even if very other part of the car was different.

    The X-type is a lot more closely related to the Mondeo then the Taurus but saying that wouldn't help you either as most Americans don't even know what a Mondeo is.
  • lrguy44lrguy44 Member Posts: 2,197
    maybe we should all be looking at and demanding less electronically complicated vehicles

    Tell that to the Federal Government and the special interest groups. To meet MPG, safety, and emission standards the cars have to get more complicated electronically. DSC, RSC, ABS, etc, are all examples.
    If the cars were covered forever, you would pay for a warranty that you now have a choice to buy or not to buy.
  • epineyepiney Member Posts: 462
    i want a car to remain a car, not a PDA on wheels.

    Nah, I like all of the advancements and technology and am all for the new toys. I love the new keyless entry and start that memorizes drivers, voice recognition, real time nav, oil life monitors, collision mitigation systems, etc.

    These things will become more reliable and make their way down into many cars.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Exactly...

    There was some poster on here a while ago complaining about how there were too many electronic systems in cars now. That they wanted to buy a car none of those unneeded, unreliable electronic systems. They just want power brakes, power steering and that is it.

    That person must have either forgotten what it is like to drive a car with just a carburetor on it or has never driven one at all. Modern cars could not meet the fuel economy, emissions and safety standards that we demand without all of those electronic systems. Stability control is going to be standard on cars in a few years and that is a good thing. If the US refuses to enact some kind of comprehensive driver training system that makes people understand that driving is a right not a privilege then mandated stability control is better then nothing.
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    For all of the folks here that say "just put that money in a savings acount, or just put a little aside each month". That is a fantastic idea if you can afford to do that. Not everyone is you and not every one has $1500 laying around to plunk in an account, plus if you have major problems $1500 will get you no where.

    Well, to quote Matthias a few thousand posts ago, "it is expensive to be poor."

    Someone on one of the Toyota boards posted that they purchased a 100k extended warranty on their Corolla for $1500. They have the money to spend that on a warranty but not enough to put the same amount in a bank in case there are problems with the car.

    The REAL question is whether you can afford NOT to have $1500 in an emergency fund.
  • lls57lls57 Member Posts: 57
    I hope that Ford can turn it around, but they still have a ways to go. $443M of that profit was from special items, including $206M from the sale of the Aston Martin unit. North American operations lost $279M.
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    With the new CAFE ratings they want to impose it is even going to get worse. My owner is one of the people Ford Motor Company asked to speak to Congress about it. He went up a couple weeks ago.

    How much do you think it would cost to get a F150 up to 32 MPG?
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    Someone on one of the Toyota boards posted that they purchased a 100k extended warranty on their Corolla for $1500. They have the money to spend that on a warranty but not enough to put the same amount in a bank in case there are problems with the car.

    Thats my point, they can afford to pay for a warranty if they include it in the payments but they either cannot afford or are not disciplined enough to put $1500 in a lump sum into an account, and leave it there.

    Hell I have had some call me back 3 years later asking if they can get the money on there warranty back because there Hot Water Heater broke and they can't afford to get it fixed.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Big reduction in weight(through expensive new materials), diesel engine(I think that is still coming in two years right?) 50 percent overdrive top gear to fully take advantage of the diesel's torque, better aerodynamics so have to give up some of the truck blockyiness.

    I got no idea how much all that would cost but I am sure a lot.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    if i'm not mistaken, the emission controls portion of vehicles is warrantied for a longer period. i just want VSC, TRAC, ABS and SRS where I have to have them to be rock solid that's all.

    now then, i don't want all this "intellegent" technology in the DBW / transmission control to eeek out the last .75MPG, nor do I need or want memory seats, auto lift-gates, auto-sliders, laser cruise, integrated NAV and audio, etc. they all present NEGATIVE-value to me.

    you're making the argument that if someone were to take that position, it would be akin to wanting to avoid electronically controlled timing, injection, etc.

    that's not true.

    if and when stability control is mandated, it better last 250K and cost me NADA (ha) to maintain, and i want the ability to disable it. thank you.

    i prefer to remain in the loop on a lower-tech vehicle. i'll just be a late adopter i guess.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    you're making the argument that if someone were to take that position, it would be akin to wanting to avoid electronically controlled timing, injection, etc.

    This particular person I was talking about wanted exactly that. NO electronics beyond the basics needed for ignition, gauges, lights etc.

    I want to be able to fully disable stability control too at least for cars since most people have no idea how to drive a truck I don't think it should be disabled on SUV/trucks. That is one of the reason I am not a big Mercedes fan because you can't ever turn it all the way off.
  • tbaxxontbaxxon Member Posts: 80
    Extended warranties are sold based on fear...OMG Do you know what a transmission costs? The F&I guys are the worst. Right after the sales guy is telling one how reliable and trouble free a particular used car is they try to scare one into buying an extended warranty? Does that make sense to anyone?

    Then IF an engine does blow (watch how many hoops one will have to jump through to prove it was a manufacturer defect)

    MOST people will never use the warranty. I'll put my money on the house on this one. Always have and I am far ahead of the game. I have only bought one new car in my life. The rest used and still never need a warranty,

    But IF you have to buy a warranty ANY dealer anywhere can sell you one and there are those that will at a huge discount. NEVER buy it when you buy the car. You have 3 years to get one.

    Cars are made better then ever and the things that go wrong are usually not covered, Fit and finish items.

    CR does not recommend them. No consumer advocate recommends them to my knowledge.

    You want "peace of mind" or "sleep at night"? PAxil and AMbian is cheaper.
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    CR does not recommend them. No consumer advocate recommends them to my knowledge.

    Ya they also said that beta max was the way to go and not invest in a VCR.

    That was real good advice.
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Member Posts: 2,039
    Wait a second. Are you telling me that Betamax is NOT the way to go? I'm kind of freaked out right now.

    -Moo
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,825
    I don't think there are categoric answers to this.

    I've never bought an extended warranty, and I'm not interested in the benefits of CPO.

    But I buy cheap cars, and I can afford the repairs.

    If I were inclined towards a 3-year-old Benz, say, I'd certainly consider a warranty, but only one provided by Mercedes.

    If someone is really tight money-wise and winds up with a 72-month $190/month loan on a Corolla, an EW might be a benefit. It's a guarantee that they'll be able to afford the car and that it'll run. That may well be worth $15/month to some people.

    It's like buying rental-car accident insurance. Even if it's a bad deal, you have to take it if you don't have another source of insurance. To me, anyway, the risk of being on the hook for $12k of my own money following a hit-and-run is not worth a savings of $20/day.

    So, like Terry used to say, It Depends.

    -Mathias
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    If you buy the warranty and never use it you'll think you threw your money away.

    But, ONE major thing happens and you will be SO thankful you have it in place.

    For a lot of people, it's just the peace of mind that makes it worth it.
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    "I also won't let my friends or family buy a pre owned car from me with out one. "

    Friends don't let friends drive Fords!
    :blush:
    Mackabee
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    I will never forget it. Me and 3 of my buds were sittting around in the office one night while I was stationed in Germany. We were pounding some of the local libations having an argument over VCR or Beta Max, and this one guy kept waving these magazines in our face, Popular Science and Consumer Reports were both saying that Beta Max was the wave of the future.

    Talk about getting High Grossed, I belive my wife and I paid in the range of $800 for our first VCR from the PX. it had NTCS and PAL capability. Wooooooooo :D

    I have probably used that line 500 times over the years since then every time some one mentions anything in CR. :D
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    Friends don't let friends drive Fords!

    Ya, ya, ya, why don't you go make another yen for the Rising Sun and get outa hear.image
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    God I hate working Sundays. I love coming to work every day except Sunday. Luckly I only work every third. I think its because we never do anything. Average 2 cars on Sunday and 4 is a big day. Hardly seems worth opening the doors to me.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Extended warranties are sold based on fear...OMG Do you know what a transmission costs?

    OMG Do you know what a transmission costs?

    You don't because you don't work in the auto industry. It depends on the car and while some transmissions might be less then a 1,000 dollars some are several thousand dollars. As more and more vehicles get high tech five, six or seven speed transmissions with multiple modes and adaptive shifting technology the costs go up. Did you know that the transmissions in many race cars are the single most expensive part in the car? Modern cars are moving more and more that way too. Even in expensive cars now can have a transmission that might cost 3,000 dollars or more and there aren't many EWs that are more then 3,000 dollars.
  • epineyepiney Member Posts: 462
    Talk about getting High Grossed, I belive my wife and I paid in the range of $800 for our first VCR

    I still remember when the blank tapes were like 15 to 20 dollars a pop! Relative fortune back then.
  • exb0exb0 Member Posts: 539
    More scare tactics. What are the odds of you having a transmission replaced under the extended warranty plan, 1:100? It could a little a higher if you buy a European brand. :P

    A few years ago there was huge brouhaha about Honda’s failing transmissions. It was such big deal that Honda extended the warranty on their transmissions for free because 2% of them had failed. Yes, 2:100. Now, the odds that your transmission will be replaced under the extended warranty, if you have bought 6 year 75K plan, outside of the standard BB warranty and after your EW expires is NADA. Considering the fact that most manufactures have extended powertrans warranties, odds of your EW paying for a major repair is NADA.

    Now let’s look at this situation rationally. Warranties are sold at a profit. Not just the profit for the dealer, but also profit for the manufacturer. If they weren’t making a profit, they wouldn’t be selling the product. This basically means that odds of you spending in repairs more than what you pay for the warranty are low. If it was the other way around, they wouldn’t be making a profit.

    Even in expensive cars now can have a transmission that might cost 3,000 dollars or more and there aren't many EWs that are more then 3,000 dollars.

    Do you really expect us to spend $1500 up front just to cover us from a 1% possibility that we might spend $3000 in the future? That’s what I would call a stupid bet.
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Member Posts: 2,039
    I don't think you should buy insurance either. I've never been in an accident and I don't plan on doing it either. So why should I have to get insurance?

    We all know the insurance companies aren't in this as a nonprofit organization. They are making money on us every month.

    You don't really expect me to pay profit to a company for a service rendered do you? Especially when I don't plan on having an accident or having anyone else hit me!

    Stupid capitalists.

    -Moo
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    You know what, I have seen the light.

    Tomorrow I am cancelling my health insurance because me, my wife, or my daughter have not been to the doctor for any thing but a physical (maintanence)in years.

    Then when I am done there I am going to cancel my home owners insurance because I have owned homes for 19 years now and never filed a claim, if I was to instead put $20 a month in a cookie jar I am sure it would be enough to cover my house and belongings if it burns down.

    Car insurance............. Who needs it, I have never had a wreck, and hell the fine for not having it is cheaper then the insurance.

    While I am at it I am sure those pesky 401K people are making a profit on me to. I am going to clean that puppy out while I am at it.

    Then I am am going to hunt the first girl scout down that I see and shake her down for $1.25. I just found out that the girls scouts make a profit on those cookies.

    The nerve of some people making a profit and not offering the service soley for my personal convenience. :mad:
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    and have AMEX extend the warranty.

    you people do know they have a buyer's protection plan where they extend the warranty by 1 yr of just about everything you can buy. :blush:

    if you're fortunate to be able to pay the item off when the bill comes due, you have the added bonus of the frequent flyer miles. oh, but you do have to pay some small fee to redeem those miles now.

    nothing is "free" anymore. :mad:
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    you have to be in the position to be able to afford the repair if something is broken. i trust people in that position don't generally opt for the extension, because they are loosing money that way.

    but, if you're in an accident and it's your fault, you can be sued into the ground, or, if you should suffer a medical calamity, again, you can loose everything. so the "ability to pay" argument doesn't work there.

    you help people finance a vehicle at some extended loan period just so the monthy payment fits with their finances... but we all know, they are just tossing money away.

    in effect, these programs (extended loans, extended warranties on autos) are for the people that probably can least afford them.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The X-type is a lot more closely related to the Mondeo then the Taurus but saying that wouldn't help you either as most Americans don't even know what a Mondeo is.

    Which is ashame really; my Contour SE V6/MTX75 was a total blast. It was a lot of fun at track events, it was a great highway car, it got good gas mileage, insurance was cheap...its too bad so many Americans can't fit their fat a**es in those super bolstered front seats (although the backseats were kinda small).
    I had nothin' but love for Ford after that car. It was a poor man's 3-series, thats what it was trying to do, and properly equipped I think it was a good try. I also agree that the Focus is underrated.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    I love the new keyless entry

    I have that, its called keeping my doors unlocked.

    and start that memorizes drivers,

    I have that too, its called being the only one that drives my car.

    real time nav,

    I have that too its called a map.

    oil life monitors,

    I have that too its called a dipstick.

    collision mitigation systems,

    I have that too its called paying attention.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Wait a second. Are you telling me that Betamax is NOT the way to go?

    Oh don't listen to them, Betamax is the way to go. While we are at it I have the best system for car stereos if you want it. Its called an 8 track.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    Understood 777, I was just taking it to the extreme :D You are correct the person who needs the plans the most are the folks who you say can't afford it and I say can't afford not to have it. Back in the day when we sold Accident and Health insurance, there were folks who truly needed it, they were the ones who were one pay day away from being broke.

    Same with GAP Insurance. I buy it, could I afford not to? Probably so. But when I look at the risk reward I am more then happy to give up $9 a month on 0% loan, when the alternative is possibly paying out thousands. Especially in the area I live, there are quite a few people in our area who's status in the U.S is questionable and they do not carry insurance. I help file 2-4 claims a month for people usually at an average of around $4800. I had one last year that was $12K
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    To be fair Betamax was a better system to the VHS (its VHS not VCR as a Betamax is also a VCR), it just lost out in the publicity wars.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • epineyepiney Member Posts: 462
    What's the big deal? If you want a extended warranty, buy it, if not don't. No right or wrong. No one is making someone buy one.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    OMG Do you know what a transmission costs?

    One question on this. Since EW usually only go to 100K miles how many transmissions fail before 100K miles?

    Speaking of such things didn't Chrysler just come out with a lifetime powertrain warranty?

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • epineyepiney Member Posts: 462
    If you do want or can't afford the toys that's fine too, but you can't stop progress. Don't want an iphone, your choice too, but it's here to stay. Prefer to live in the stone ages, that's fine too.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    I don't think you should buy insurance either. I've never been in an accident and I don't plan on doing it either. So why should I have to get insurance?

    Very poor analogy for two simple reasons. First off it is illegal, at least here in IL, to drive without insurance. Secondly insurance covers you for what could very well be 100's of thousands of dollars in liability where an extended warranty only covers at most a few thousand.

    In short I could afford to shell out the $1500 for a new tranny but not shell out the $250,000+ if I cause an accident that maims someone for life.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • psorterpsorter Member Posts: 89
    "Certified is a gimmick used to force an EW on a buyer. "Certified" cars cost more. "

    In a town close by to us one of the toyota dealerships decided not to offer certified cars anymore, that was about a year ago, the second Toyota dealership in that town doesn't certify any of their vehicles anymore as they couldn't compete with the first dealership. Now the Honda and Nissan dealerships are doing the same. The used car prices at all these dealerships are now similar to the prices at the used car dealers.

    Locally, though, I still live in a "certified" town
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Its not living in the stone age but spending my hard earned money on things that just don't make sense. Like why spend thousands for a nav system when I can get a good one from Wally world for 1/10th the cost and I can transfer it between cars? Or why even pay 1/10th the cost when I only truly need it two or three times a year? I can always use the nav feature on my cell phone and at only $3 a day it will only cost me $9/year.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Like why spend thousands for a nav system when I can get a good one from Wally world for 1/10th the cost and I can transfer it between cars?

    Because it has a tiny screen and a poor interface and takes about 3x longer to input an address using tiny buttons and controls.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    You mean because the nav system that you get in a car for thousands has a tiny screen a poor interface and takes three times longer to input an address? wow. good thing I don't use the one in the Caddy.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    Insurance is all about cashing on fear - without it there is no insurance. Each of us has different threshold of fear.

    My friend would not insure his house if he didn't have to due to mortgage, even though he lives in Florida coast in depression (St Pete). That's too low. Other people would buy disability insurance having office job and sedintary lifestyle. That's too low. Many other people would buy life insurance not having dependends - that's just plain stupid.

    Back to your sales frontline - if your penetration is 50%, you must be very persuasive and it simply means you do your job (of lowering risk tolerance threshold) well - at least for time of your customers sitting in your office. Nothing wrong with that, as I alsays say - there is no harm to the willing. ;)

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    A coworker of mine had a Contour and loved it. It was just the little 4 cylinder model but it treated him well and never gave him any trouble.

    I never got a chance to drive one of the V6 or SVT models but I know they are hot too.

    Too bad the last few SVT models I have seen are all trashed. The people that gravitated to them tended to be the worst of the sub-compact modifier crowd. I see two contours on my way to work every morning and they are both in great shape.
  • lrguy44lrguy44 Member Posts: 2,197
    Warranties are sold at a profit. Not just the profit for the dealer, but also profit for the manufacturer. If they were not’t making a profit, they would not’t be selling the product.

    And service departments (dealers and independents) make much more off customer pay than warranty work. Warranty companies dictate lower labor and parts costs. So if you waltz in without a warranty, it costs more.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Have you used a modern nav system?

    I can punch a location in a Modern LR/Jag, or a Honda/Acura or Toyota/Lexus since they are very similar, in a minute or less.

    The only real advantage that the after market portable nav systems have is easier updates and even that is changing. As more and more cars get built in hard drives with USB ports or media car slots then in car nav systems will be easier to update and upgrade.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,368
    I have a 1995 3 Series; the on-board electronics only manage the engine and the ABS. Ditto for my 1999 Wrangler. OTOH, my wife's X3 and my Mazdaspeed3 also have traction/stability control, trip computers, rain sensing wipers, automatic climate control, and Xenon headlamps/LED tail lamps. In all honesty, the only things I wish the 3er and Jeep had are the Xenon lights. The other bells and whistles are nice, but I can easily live without them.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    In grad school I had to benchmark a lot of nav systems. The in-vehicle systems have to meet usability requirements and some basic safety criteria, in addition to the OEM requirements for durability and lifetime (usually like 10 yrs or so) while the aftermarket ones have no HMI requirements and are consumer goods with 90 day to 1 year warranties.

    Newer integrated in-vehicle systems can update on the fly, include traffic information, and use real time mapping. They are also more accurate because they can use dead reckoning to get a vehicle position when satellites aren't visible to the unit (like in a city with sky scrapers like NY and Chicago).

    I'm glad you like your tiny cheap hand held one though, just don't program it while you're driving behind me :P
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    I can punch a location in a Modern LR/Jag, or a Honda/Acura or Toyota/Lexus since they are very similar, in a minute or less.

    So can I with the one I got from Wally world for about 1/10th the price.

    The only real advantage that the after market portable nav systems have is easier updates and even that is changing

    You forgot portability, I can use the Garmin in any car, either Hyundai or the Caddy (although it has its own built in system) or even someone elses car, or take it with me when I buy a new one.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    They are also more accurate because they can use dead reckoning to get a vehicle position when satellites aren't visible to the unit (like in a city with sky scrapers like NY and Chicago).

    Yeah thats why mine put me in Lake Michigan a block to the south when I finally came out of Lower Wacker drive.

    I'm glad you like your tiny cheap hand held one though, just don't program it while you're driving behind me

    You can't they lock out all but the basics (i.e. changing from map mode to metrics and back again) when it senses movement, anything else and you need to be stopped. So if I am behind you programing my portable GPS we are stopped (or at least I am).

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Yeah I forgot about the real time satellite updates on some of the nav systems. The next gen Jag systems I saw on display at an event a few months ago will have that capability along with real time traffic and weather monitoring.

    They already have media card readers on them starting last year I think.

    So yeah the only real advantage for the after market units is portability. At least until you drop one of them and break it on the ground.
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