Stories from the Sales Frontlines

lemko

...in all my cars at the 3K interval, ofter 100 miles or slightly less before that mark. I use just regular dino oil. If I used synthetic, I'd probably would still be paranoid and change it every 3K and waste my money.

jmonroe

yes, unless it's one of the toyota "sludger" engines, it will be fine

I’ve heard about this but haven’t followed the issue. What is Toyota’s fix for this? I’ve only heard that they will fix what is necessary if a customer has a problem and that they have extended the warranty on the engines.

I haven’t heard this officially so what’s the latest from Toyota on this. Maybe Mack can answer this in a one-parter, lets hope. :confuse:

jmonroe

british_rover

No it won't. I ran a service shop for years and 20,000 miles on regular oil will not be alright. The engine might still run afterwards but it will have a drastically reduced service life.

An engine that should have lasted 200,000 thousand miles or so probably won't make it to a 100,000 if you do that. In some cases it won't even make it to 70,000 miles.

jescue

Toyota/Lexus has a criteria for what they do. If the car smokes but is not noisy They flush everything and do a partial rebuild of the engine. If it clatters they replace or rebuild the whole thing. I sold a friend an ES300 that smoked and they took care of it at no charge.

jmonroe

If the car smokes but is not noisy They flush everything and do a partial rebuild of the engine. If it clatters they replace or rebuild the whole thing.

That’s pretty much what I’ve heard too.

Does Toyota know what they did wrong when they designed that engine and have they made the permanent fix or have they decided to limp along until they design another engine?

jmonroe

joel0622

Can you actually keep a straight face when you do something like this to someone? I know you're in the biz to make money but do you ever draw the line at some point? Or do you justify this by saying, "if I don't do it, the guy down the road will !!

I see we are doing the standard tell a story defend your profession game today.

I have said this before.

I could run an add in the paper tomorrow that stated

"Guaranteed approval, no snags, no catches, no tricks. You sign and drive. Your payment will be $350.00 a month for 72 months at a 25% APR. 3 models to choose from, all under 50K miles"

I would have people lined up around the building to do it.

Just because allot of you have taken care of your finances over the years does not mean every one has.

Do you think the guy that has a 520 credit score deserve the same loan terms as you do?

I tell people all the time, you are buying credit at a very high price, the car comes with it. Do the right thing and you can get out.

It is no different then if you have had a DUI and I have not, you re paying three times what I do for insurance

joel0622

Let me preface this with pointing out that in the state of TN there are still some folks that live a very common life way out in the country.

We were talking about product knowledge and presentation in the sales meeting this morning. The subject of Vacuum Cleaner Salesmen came up and how good they are at product knowledge and presentation, and how the last thing they tell you is the price only after they showed you there product.

One guy told a story about how the owners Grampa who used to sell cars here was one of the best at presentation and could build instant rapport with a customer.

He learned it through selling Kirby vacuums.

One day he was up in the country in an area called Hanging Limb TN. He walked up and knocked on the door, the folks answered and he went straight into his pitch. The folks kept trying to stop him but he would not let them and just kept on going. He closed by saying, "Now before I tell you how little it cost to own this fine vacuum let me show you how well it works" He took his coffee can of saw dust and dirt and threw it all over the floor.

The home owner said "I hope you got a broom and a dust pan, we been trying to tell you we aint got no electricity up here.

british_rover

The home owner said "I hope you got a broom and a dust pan, we been trying to tell you we aint got no electricity up here.

hahahhah :mad: :surprise:

jmonroe

An engine that should have lasted 200,000 thousand miles or so probably won't make it to a 100,000 if you do that. In some cases it won't even make it to 70,000 miles.

Now that you brought up that 70,000 miles thing, I’m thinking again.

I’ve told my sad tale here about the 95’ Monte Carlo that I bought used in 97’ with almost 26K miles that developed a drinking problem in 2005 with just a little over 67K miles. The repair bill for replacing the head gaskets was going to be at least $1100. So I donated it to Goodwill and got a $700 deduction on my 2005 IRS 1040.

Every one here knows how I don’t hold back on oil changes but I’ve wondered a couple times if this could have been do to oil change neglect from the first owner. However, from what I know about cars and from what several reputable garages have told me, oil changes aren’t related to this type of problem. So, that car was either abused in other ways before I got it or as one garage told me, I was about right on schedule for having that problem with that 3.1L engine.

Neither of these answers makes me feel any better about the situation and to be honest, my pride was a little hurt since I’ve never had a car that failed on me. Have always had a pretty easy time selling my old cars and none had to be given away as a “mechanics special“. :mad:

jmonroe

roadburner

You say you were to show you were in financial need and you did, at least on paper.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear about that, but at the time I applied you did not have to show any financial need whatsoever. All you did was apply, take the money, and stay enrolled at school- all of which I complied with.

jlawrence01

That was almost word for word off of one of the old 50s sit coms ... and it was situated in NYC.

Only the line was "Hope you have a broom and dustpan. They turned off the electricity yesterday."

roadburner

88 M5: Castrol Syntec 20W50 every 3-4k. It's overkill, it's also a 188k mile M engine hat will cost a fortune to rebuild.

The only thing you really need to watch on the S38 engines is the timing chain tensioner. If that puppy jumps a tooth you are looking at $5K-$10K of work. I still miss my 1988 M6
Then again, I'm going to look at a -supposedly- solid 1973 2002 on my lunch break...

jmonroe

I see we are doing the standard tell a story defend your profession game today.

Actually that was one of yesterday’s topics. You must have been busy R&Ing and didn’t have time to jump in.

Do you think the guy that has a 520 credit score deserve the same loan terms as you do?

I can understand that a buyer with a low credit score will pay a high interest rate. The point I was trying to make was the selling of everything else (insurance, mop and glow etc.). I didn’t notice that the kitchen sink was also offered but I might have missed that one. The poster (who BTW, was not the one who did the selling) was merely the reviewer of what was sold.

I tell people all the time, you are buying credit at a very high price, the car comes with it. Do the right thing and you can get out.

I’m sure the regulars here know you’re not the type to take advantage of buyers. I’ve heard you say several times that the biggest battle you have to fight is the legacy of what your predecessors have dumped on you. I admire your defense of your biz but if you fight too hard defending it, for these types of practices, you’ll be put in the same boat.

My personal opinion is that your biz is a lot better today compared to years ago but the squeaky wheel gets the grease or should I say, the negative attention in this case.

jmonroe

jmonroe

The home owner said "I hope you got a broom and a dust pan, we been trying to tell you we aint got no electricity up here.

That's an oldie but a goodie. What I didn't know, was, that's what drove (pun intended) that Kirby guy into car sales.

jmonroe

kiawah

Hey....I sold Kirby's in Pgh, one college summer job (many many years ago). Hmmm, that makes me a high-end salesman! (staying on forum topic).

That is one strong vacuum. Hose attachment to hose attachment, it would suck the dirt out of the inside of any other vacuum. Pretty pricey, but really does the job.

jmonroe

Hmmm, that makes me a high-end salesman!

Pretty pricey, but really does the job.

How do you think they could afford to pay a high-end salesman's commission?

jmonroe

Kirstie_H

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260148596999#descr- iption

Read the questions from prospective buyers. I think my favorite is, "Will this work with my convertible?"

jescue

How about a large cloth-look sticker for the roof? That would give any car the look of a convertible! :P

jipster

The subhject of Vacuum Cleaner Salesmen came up.... He learned it through selling Kirby vacuums.

We had a pretty good Kirby thread going about eight thousand posts ago. I had a Kirby guy over for a demo. He was as green as they come. Turned me over to his manager, who drove to my house at about 10 p.m. Ended up buying the mighty Kirby for $300 less than what he had sold it for to his grandma. :P

micosilver

Assuming you have no plans to trade, what difference does being upside down on a lease make? Don't they all require gap insurance? Granted that deal is pretty bad for her, no idea why anyone would lease a 3 year old used car for 5 years

First of all, by this logic, if you are not planning on trading the car any time soon - it is OK to buy with 0% down, 15% interest for 80 months, as long as the payment is less than $400.

Second, the car is out of warranty. What happens if the engine goes out, and the bill is $4000 for a $3000 car? Gap insurance will not help you then...

jmonroe

Ended up buying the mighty Kirby for $300 less than what he had sold it for to his grandma.

Once and for all...lets get to the bottom of this. Is there an MSRP for those things or don't they play by the Monroney Play Book? I continuously hear about home owners that rip the heads off those salesmen like you said you did (I know, you really did it otherwise you wouldn't say that, right?).

At least one of them had to move onto the car biz awhile back at Joel's store (he musta been very hard-up). :confuse:

jmonroe

nortsr1

I had six years in the Navy, and back in 1954, when I got out, I took my first sales job selling Kirbys. I actually forget what the selling price was (I believe about $400.00)...but for every Kirby sold we made $100.00. Needless to say, I worked for two weeks (after taking their sales seminar).... never sold a ONE and spent two weeks of lunch money out of my own pocket. It was then that I decided to get out of sales. I became a COP for the next twenty-six years. Best choice I ever made.

lemko

...back in 1988 for about two weeks when I was unemployed. The MSRP was $1,060 back then, but you could get them much cheaper. I did sell two and thought I was onto something until one person's credit was rejected and I kept being sent to one ghetto neighborhood after another. Fortunately, I quickly found more steady work. The Kirby was an excellent vacuum and I wouldn't mind having one for myself.

psorter

"Does Toyota know what they did wrong when they designed that engine and have they made the permanent fix or have they decided to limp along until they design another engine?"

Yes toyota fixed the problem in 2002, it was poor oil circulation which caused the oil to get hotter then normal which caused the sludge, they improved circulation by enabling oil to drain faster into the sump (bigger drains)

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/01/toyota_sludge_settlement.html

jmonroe

The Kirby was an excellent vacuum and I wouldn't mind having one for myself.

Kinda like the cobblers son goes shoeless.

jmonroe

chetj

i think i would change that oil once a year if she only does 5k...consumer reports, any owners manual, wikipedia or or pretty much any reputable source will say 5 k is fine for one year...i wouldnt leave the same oil in car for more than one year...your the total opposite of my bro in law haha

chetj

my brothers 3.1 v6 on his 00 malibu had a gasket problem too...maybe manifold gasket...the engine has 85 k and has never burnt any oil..i think it was a bad design

jmonroe

i think i would change that oil once a year if she only does 5k...consumer reports, any owners manual,...

Like I said in a previous post, I have a bad habit about changing oil often. It also makes me feel good to think that I'm rich enough to do it more often than what publications recommend.

...your the total opposite of my bro in law haha

Glad to hear it. :P

jmonroe

jescue

Well, as an example we have an Audi A4 that just pulled into service. The engine is clattering at 48K. They have done 2 oil changes...no warranty. :sick:

jmonroe

my brothers 3.1 v6 on his 00 malibu had a gasket problem too...maybe manifold gasket...the engine has 85 k and has never burnt any oil..i think it was a bad design

A manifold gasket problem could allow water to enter the combustion chambers, while not a good thing, its usually less expensive to replace than two head gaskets that would allow water to get into the crankcase like the problem I had with my 95’, 3.1L V6 Monte Carlo.

I appreciate you letting me know that at least one other person had a problem with this engine. Because now I’m armed with what I need to sue the pants off GM.

I have to admit, since that problem I had with the Monte Carlo, I now have GM right where I want them…OUT OF MY GARAGE !!

jmonroe

jmonroe

Well, as an example we have an Audi A4 that just pulled into service. The engine is clattering at 48K. They have done 2 oil changes...no warranty.

Do you thing they pushed that oil change interval too far; even for synthetics? :surprise:

From what I've heard, warranties don't help this kind of a brain drain.

jmonroe

lrguy44

Since engines are much better, oil has improved, warranties to 100k miles, and the manufacture's scheduled maintenance calling for oil changes every 7500 miles or so (or 6 months in our case), how can you enviornmentally speaking waste a natural resource by changing at 3000 miles or less. Actually, that practice was a ploy by dealers and lube joints to generate revenue.

jipster

I continuously hear about home owners that rip the heads off those salesmen like you said you did...

Going by their facial expression and body language ... I put a hurting on them. Maybe, not a total decapatation, but not a noogie either. I do remember the greenpea looking at his manager for some guidance, as I was really dragging my feet... well just plain dragging as it was late. The manager just looked at him, "Well.. just don't say anything to your grandma". :P

A month later I sold Kirby for exactly what I paid for it... $800 if I recall correctly. The MSRP was $1,500... if I recall correctly. My Kirby ad was in the paper for only one day, the caller paid cash and came over to get it that day.

Where the greenpea messed up though was that he forgot to take my old Sears Kennore vacuum that was suppose to be included in the deal. If he had taken my old vacuum, I may still have Kirby today.

Joel, you ever take cash and a trade-in for a new car... then forget to collect the trade-in?

british_rover

Nothing will help that little 1.8T they are almost all hand grenade motors. Synthetic doesn't extend your service interval on turbocharged engines. The turbo spinning at 50,000 plus RPMs just eats the oil up.

mackabee

I owned a Kirby with all the attachments. Great vacuum cleaner. Wish I still had it. We paid $500.00 for it and it was pre-owned. Might have been you I bought it from.
Anyway, I almost sold their competing product: Rainbow vacuum cleaners that used water. Interesting concept and it actually works. I just can't see myself emptying the water every 15 minutes. I attended one day of their training and decided it wasn't for me. I was 23 at the time. Young whipper snapper. Good looking too!
Mack

nthe

"how can you enviornmentally speaking waste a natural resource by changing at 3000 miles or less"

this coming from a guy who sells land rovers that get 5 gallons to the mile! :P

joel0622

Joel, you ever take cash and a trade-in for a new car... then forget to collect the trade-in?

No, can't say I have done that. Though I have forgot to collect down payment money on more then one occasion. Only twice have I had to get ugly though.

lrguy44

Actually, in day to day driving, LRs do better than Navigators, Yukons and the like. In the rest of the world, LRs are diesel. Only the Governments testing criteria coupled with low import numbers (48,000 last year) keep the diesels from North America. The new LR2 under 2007 standards would be 25 MPG highway.

jescue

It would be covered if they had followed the intervals. They schedule 10,000 miles between changes, they only did two in 48,000 miles. Warranty will not cover it,and to top it off the maintenance was included at no charge. :confuse:

british_rover

Hell I can get 22 mpg out of a LR3 or a range Sport on the highway if I really try. Show me another nearly 6,000 lbs SUV that can get 22 mpg on the highway. I haven't driven a LR2 for a long enough trip to see how high I could get but I bet I could break 27 or 28 mpg.

jmonroe

how can you enviornmentally speaking waste a natural resource by changing at 3000 miles or less.

Are you trying to make me feel guilty? Well, it ain't gonna work. Since most everyone abides by the manufactures recommended oil change intervals, there is still plenty of green to go around for everyone. Like I said it makes me feel rich, while not quite as rich as most of your customers, I have feelings too.

Actually, that practice was a ploy by dealers and lube joints to generate revenue.

I know that but even a blind squirrel hits the target sometimes. :surprise:

jmonroe

lrguy44

Not aimed to make you in particular feel guilty, but you got to admit it is better than talking about Vacuum Cleaners!

joel0622

but you got to admit it is better than talking about Vacuum Cleaners!

Vacuum cleaners suck.

jmonroe

Warranty will not cover it,and to top it off the maintenance was included at no charge.

I figured I was right about the warranty part. As for having a maintenance agreement and not taking advantage of it, that just dumbfounds me. Even I don't want to touch what goes on in a head like that. Other than to say, "stay away from that guy, that kind of stupidity could be contagious".

Maybe there is a head pro that hangs out here that would like to get into this one. :sick: :sick:

jmonroe

cotmc

"...they only did two in 48,000 miles. Warranty will not cover it,and to top it off the maintenance was included at no charge."

Not only were the oil services free, but they would also receive a free loaner car, correct?

All I can say is that they were LAZY!! I hope you guys hold firm on that warranty. Sounds like they don't deserve any help on this issue. Hopefully, this will be a lesson in personal responsibility they never forget!

On another note, it's a shame that most of the European makes have moved away from the free scheduled maintenance programs. Now, you're likely to see this type of neglect more often than before -- especially with the leases.

british_rover

We had the same thing happen with a Discovery back about six months ago.

She never had the oil changed in thirty something thousand miles and the engine exploded in spectacular fashion. It threw a rod that then punched through the block and shattered the camshaft into half a dozen pieces. The largest piece was ejected out the rear of the block and destroyed the torque converter.

Daddy just bought her a pre-owned LR3 to replace the Disco. :sick:

joel0622

What is really funny is when they come in with a car that has 60K miles on it and the oil pan is full of sludge.

You ask when they changed the oil last and the say every 5K miles, but change there tune very quick when you point out the factory oil filter is still on the car.

marsha7

I used to work in my father's automotive machine shop, back in the days when gas stations were service stations, in the 1960s and 1970s...we used to tell everyone to change oil AND FILTER every 3000 miles, and I believe it was good advice...

We would see cylinder heads from new cars only a year old, where they went 10,000 miles w/o changing oil, and the clumps of sludge and grease on the valve springs was disgusting...all from not changing the oil...

Was 3000 miles too soon???...could they have gone 5000???...maybe...I always changed mine at 3000 miles and I do not feel I wasted a dime...

Plus, remember something...maybe by recommending 3000 they would actually DO IT at 5000 miles, so the purpose was accomplished...

But, to maintain integrity, I did practice what I preached, change at 3000 miles...considering how much stop and go I drove, I believe it was the right thing to do...

Now, I use 5W-30 synthetic oil, my city car (wife's Ram hemi going 7 miles each way to work on city roads) I change every 5000 miles and my road car (Crown Vic 25 miles each way, mostly 60-80 mph on interstate) every 7000 miles...

cotmc

"Daddy just bought her a pre-owned LR3 to replace the Disco."

Good for him! It would be unfair if she had to take some responsibility for her own actions. The landfills are too empty, anyway!

smokin98ss

Here's a funny one for you. When I married my ex-wife I got to know her dad and I noticed that he had about 10 old pickup trucks in the field behind his house. When I asked about them he replied "That's where I drag them to when they quit." This was 1992 and I noticed a 1990 model ford F-150 out there with all of them. Come to find out he never even lifted the hood on a truck (or car for that matter) and just went and bought a new one when they quit. He told me that Chevy's were better because they usually made it over 45k before they quit. Fords and dodges would only make it about 35k. I looked and sure enough out of about 10 or twelve trucks, the highest mileage was 46,700. All had blown motors. One had a huge hole in the floor, he told me when it blew, something came out and hit him in the foot. Yes he had inherited several million dollars and was almost as dumb as his daughter. (I should have known when I saw the trucks)